Public Schools are getting worse (1 Viewer)

[Chadstroma]

And I'm sure times have changed my cousin was sent to private school because he was a distraction and then thrown out of them also ......... RIP

Yes, in reflection that was another thing that I think accounted for my view growing up that private schools had the screwed up kids. More than a few of them were at public schools.... then either were expelled or the parents figured private school would fix them. Thus, they ended up at private schools.

This also seemed to be more a thing for HS private schools than it is for elementary and JHS as well.

 

[HomerSimpson]

Quite frankly, and sadly imo, many areas of the country prioritize funding other ventures rather than public schools.

Our schools should be beautiful, safe buildings where teachers are paid a very good wage for doing really important work. We don’t prioritize that and so we get what we get. It sucks.

1000%

Over 2/3 of every tax dollar in our municipality goes to the schools.

I've been paying thousands in property taxes for yearsssssss and I don't have kids. I want a educated populace, but it's being squandered potentially and I don't want to keep paying more. I went to Public schools. So it is sad to hear they have somehow gotten worse?

Fair point, and this is the EXACT conversation I have with residents, let me know if your situation is different:

Resident: My taxes are so high and I pay them but I dont have any kids in school
Me: Actually, your tax rate is just about the lowest it has been in a decade.
Resident: Sure, but my house has gone up in value hence my higher tax bill
Me: Your house going up in value is a good thing right?
Resident: YES! But I only realize that value when I sell it
Me: OK, so you have an asset which has gone up in value a bunch and you get to keep those profits when you choose to sell it. Is this a problem?
Resident: But my taxes are too high!
Me: What is the alternative? Your tax rate is at a long time low, what would you like to happen instead?
Resident: But my taxes!
Me: <crickets>

If you live in a desirable school district, you probably have a home which is worth a lot of money because it is desirable and most likely you are paying a bunch of taxes. If you don't pay a bunch of taxes, chances are you don't live in a desirable school district and thus your home is not that desirable.

How did I do?

In all seriousness, if you don't want to pay the taxes you will have to sell your desirable home.

Well I live in CA and we have Prop 13. Which means I pay about $11,000 per year in property taxes and my neighbor who has been living in her house for 40 years pays about $1,200. Neither of us have kids. But a big ***** of both of those taxes go to schools. How to pay for schools is messy in every state. But yes I see your point.


I don't know why the word "portion got edited hahaha

 

[HomerSimpson]

Quite frankly, and sadly imo, many areas of the country prioritize funding other ventures rather than public schools.

Our schools should be beautiful, safe buildings where teachers are paid a very good wage for doing really important work. We don’t prioritize that and so we get what we get. It sucks.

1000%

Over 2/3 of every tax dollar in our municipality goes to the schools.

I've been paying thousands in property taxes for yearsssssss and I don't have kids. I want a educated populace, but it's being squandered potentially and I don't want to keep paying more. I went to Public schools. So it is sad to hear they have somehow gotten worse?

Fair point, and this is the EXACT conversation I have with residents, let me know if your situation is different:

Resident: My taxes are so high and I pay them but I dont have any kids in school
Me: Actually, your tax rate is just about the lowest it has been in a decade.
Resident: Sure, but my house has gone up in value hence my higher tax bill
Me: Your house going up in value is a good thing right?
Resident: YES! But I only realize that value when I sell it
Me: OK, so you have an asset which has gone up in value a bunch and you get to keep those profits when you choose to sell it. Is this a problem?
Resident: But my taxes are too high!
Me: What is the alternative? Your tax rate is at a long time low, what would you like to happen instead?
Resident: But my taxes!
Me: <crickets>

If you live in a desirable school district, you probably have a home which is worth a lot of money because it is desirable and most likely you are paying a bunch of taxes. If you don't pay a bunch of taxes, chances are you don't live in a desirable school district and thus your home is not that desirable.

How did I do?

In all seriousness, if you don't want to pay the taxes you will have to sell your desirable home.

Well I live in CA and we have Prop 13. Which means I pay about $11,000 per year in property taxes and my neighbor who has been living in her house for 40 years pays about $1,200. Neither of us have kids. But a big portion of both of those taxes go to schools. How to pay for schools is messy in every state. But yes I see your point.

 

[HomerSimpson]

About 9 years ago, my oldest was about ready for to leave her pre-school to go to kindergarten and we needed to decide where she would go. My wife grew up in the suburb we live in and she wanted her to go to the same school she and all her family did, a small Catholic school. I grew up going to public schools all my life. I was prejudiced against private schools because it seemed to me that the kids I knew that were 'really screwed up' were at the private schools. Now, that may not be a cause and effect there but it was my impression. Further, we live in a very good school district and why should I already pay for that in taxes and then pay more to send my kid to another school?

I was still not thrilled about sending her there but I softened after I happened to end up talking to several clients of mine who were teachers in public schools and they all sent their own children to Catholic schools. The main point they all had was classroom size but they have several others points as well.

My daughter went to the Catholic school and my two boys followed. Now, I think it was the best decision we have made for our kids to date.

There are a number of reasons for this but one that I can tell a story about that helps explain why is in a family we became very good friends with which started with our daughters being friends at that pre-school. Their daughter went to public school while ours went to Catholic school. Every July 4th, our two families spend the day together. A couple of years ago, my friends daughter invited one of her friends over. It struck me that both her and her friend did not look their age. They just seemed to carry themselves and dress and act with an older 'maturity' if I did not know how old they were, I would have guess they were a couple years older than my daughter even though they were the same age. Afterwards, my daughter told me that they were talking and the other two girls were doing what girls do and basically gossiping about who liked who and who was dating who, etc. At one point they obviously realized that they were leaving my daughter out so they asked "So, who is dating who at Catholic school?" and my daughter replied "Uh, we don't really do that at Catholic school." One of the best things I have ever heard in my life. Further, in talking to my friend, I found out that their daughter had been going through basically HELL at school. The whole drama of girls hating on girls and then even a boy breaking up with her and telling her that she should kill herself. Meanwhile, my daughter is friendly or friends with all the girls in her grade and I know most of them- and of course nothing is perfect and there has been drama with friends but no where near the level our friends daughter had endured.

I think a huge difference from the schools is that at our school, most of the families are intact. Through my daughter and older sons grades (I don't know my younger sons class well yet) I can think of two families that are divorced. All the parents are engaged and involved in their kids lives. They are not absent or neglectful. I think that this makes a huge difference.

I can also see it in the times I have interacted with kids in the neighborhood- where they swear like sailors, try to act tough (mumbling 'f you' type stuff) and no respect for others versus the consistent "Hello Mr. Chadstroma" with respect for all these boys in my daughters grade.... all last year, where I would say "Hey bud, how are you?" and then think.... who the heck was that kid? As I only knew a couple of the boys (mostly those that had younger siblings) since you kind of only end up knowing the family and kids of our kids sex.... I know most of the girls and their families in my daughters grade and then I know most of the boys and their families for my sons grade.... but not the girls in my sons grade. I later found out, from our friends daughter who knows a few of the kids from the Catholic school that "all the boys are scared of you." which may account for them all being so respectful. lol

My daughter graduates Jr High this year. I very much do not want her to go to the public high school even though it is supposed to be like a top 50 high school in Illinois. I much rather her go to one of the Catholic schools but I don't think we can afford it. We are in that box of making too much money to get a meaningful 'need based' tuition assistance and not enough that it doesn't make a huge dent into our family finances. I am not looking forward to it. I have no interest in public schools.

Listen I'm not going to invalidate your experience but your story could be any school public or private. My BiL went private Catholic school and refused to send his kids there because of the stuff you described. There were a lot of "easy" girls there.

So while I know your experience is genuine I don't think it's private vs public, I think it's school as a community. I've witnessed the exact opposite even growing up the local Catholic girls were the fun ones.

I just think this varies widely by area/state, economics imo

Private schools by default are not better than public schools. I know A LOT of people who went to Private schools who are not very bright. And a lot of them are socially lacking. (to say it mildly)

I know A LOT of barely functional morons and extremely socially awkward people from public school.

Welcome to humanity. Haha

 

[the moops]

A lot of points brought up in here are valid, but also seem like they would have been valid when most of us were in school though

 

[Sand]

Quite frankly, and sadly imo, many areas of the country prioritize funding other ventures rather than public schools.

Our schools should be beautiful, safe buildings where teachers are paid a very good wage for doing really important work. We don’t prioritize that and so we get what we get. It sucks.

1000%

Over 2/3 of every tax dollar in our municipality goes to the schools.

I've been paying thousands in property taxes for yearsssssss and I don't have kids. I want a educated populace, but it's being squandered potentially and I don't want to keep paying more. I went to Public schools. So it is sad to hear they have somehow gotten worse?

Fair point, and this is the EXACT conversation I have with residents, let me know if your situation is different:

Resident: My taxes are so high and I pay them but I dont have any kids in school
Me: Actually, your tax rate is just about the lowest it has been in a decade.
Resident: Sure, but my house has gone up in value hence my higher tax bill
Me: Your house going up in value is a good thing right?
Resident: YES! But I only realize that value when I sell it
Me: OK, so you have an asset which has gone up in value a bunch and you get to keep those profits when you choose to sell it. Is this a problem?
Resident: But my taxes are too high!
Me: What is the alternative? Your tax rate is at a long time low, what would you like to happen instead?
Resident: But my taxes!
Me: <crickets>

If you live in a desirable school district, you probably have a home which is worth a lot of money because it is desirable and most likely you are paying a bunch of taxes. If you don't pay a bunch of taxes, chances are you don't live in a desirable school district and thus your home is not that desirable.

How did I do?

In all seriousness, if you don't want to pay the taxes you will have to sell your desirable home.

If you had this conversation with me I'd respond with - "Last year my RE taxes went up 32%. Did the school system expense go up 32%"? My school system is top 2% in the country, so a good school system. I'm all for supporting them, but they have plenty of money and I guarantee they don't need 32% more funding.

 

[belljr]

Quite frankly, and sadly imo, many areas of the country prioritize funding other ventures rather than public schools.

Our schools should be beautiful, safe buildings where teachers are paid a very good wage for doing really important work. We don’t prioritize that and so we get what we get. It sucks.

1000%

Over 2/3 of every tax dollar in our municipality goes to the schools.

I've been paying thousands in property taxes for yearsssssss and I don't have kids. I want a educated populace, but it's being squandered potentially and I don't want to keep paying more. I went to Public schools. So it is sad to hear they have somehow gotten worse?

Fair point, and this is the EXACT conversation I have with residents, let me know if your situation is different:

Resident: My taxes are so high and I pay them but I dont have any kids in school
Me: Actually, your tax rate is just about the lowest it has been in a decade.
Resident: Sure, but my house has gone up in value hence my higher tax bill
Me: Your house going up in value is a good thing right?
Resident: YES! But I only realize that value when I sell it
Me: OK, so you have an asset which has gone up in value a bunch and you get to keep those profits when you choose to sell it. Is this a problem?
Resident: But my taxes are too high!
Me: What is the alternative? Your tax rate is at a long time low, what would you like to happen instead?
Resident: But my taxes!
Me: <crickets>

If you live in a desirable school district, you probably have a home which is worth a lot of money because it is desirable and most likely you are paying a bunch of taxes. If you don't pay a bunch of taxes, chances are you don't live in a desirable school district and thus your home is not that desirable.

How did I do?

In all seriousness, if you don't want to pay the taxes you will have to sell your desirable home.

If you had this conversation with me I'd respond with - "Last year my RE taxes went up 32%. Did the school system expense go up 32%"? My school system is top 2% in the country, so a good school system. I'm all for supporting them, but they have plenty of money and I guarantee they don't need 32% more funding.

I may have missed a post but re taxes are not solely for schools

 

[JAA]

About 9 years ago, my oldest was about ready for to leave her pre-school to go to kindergarten and we needed to decide where she would go. My wife grew up in the suburb we live in and she wanted her to go to the same school she and all her family did, a small Catholic school. I grew up going to public schools all my life. I was prejudiced against private schools because it seemed to me that the kids I knew that were 'really screwed up' were at the private schools. Now, that may not be a cause and effect there but it was my impression. Further, we live in a very good school district and why should I already pay for that in taxes and then pay more to send my kid to another school?

I was still not thrilled about sending her there but I softened after I happened to end up talking to several clients of mine who were teachers in public schools and they all sent their own children to Catholic schools. The main point they all had was classroom size but they have several others points as well.

My daughter went to the Catholic school and my two boys followed. Now, I think it was the best decision we have made for our kids to date.

There are a number of reasons for this but one that I can tell a story about that helps explain why is in a family we became very good friends with which started with our daughters being friends at that pre-school. Their daughter went to public school while ours went to Catholic school. Every July 4th, our two families spend the day together. A couple of years ago, my friends daughter invited one of her friends over. It struck me that both her and her friend did not look their age. They just seemed to carry themselves and dress and act with an older 'maturity' if I did not know how old they were, I would have guess they were a couple years older than my daughter even though they were the same age. Afterwards, my daughter told me that they were talking and the other two girls were doing what girls do and basically gossiping about who liked who and who was dating who, etc. At one point they obviously realized that they were leaving my daughter out so they asked "So, who is dating who at Catholic school?" and my daughter replied "Uh, we don't really do that at Catholic school." One of the best things I have ever heard in my life. Further, in talking to my friend, I found out that their daughter had been going through basically HELL at school. The whole drama of girls hating on girls and then even a boy breaking up with her and telling her that she should kill herself. Meanwhile, my daughter is friendly or friends with all the girls in her grade and I know most of them- and of course nothing is perfect and there has been drama with friends but no where near the level our friends daughter had endured.

I think a huge difference from the schools is that at our school, most of the families are intact. Through my daughter and older sons grades (I don't know my younger sons class well yet) I can think of two families that are divorced. All the parents are engaged and involved in their kids lives. They are not absent or neglectful. I think that this makes a huge difference.

I can also see it in the times I have interacted with kids in the neighborhood- where they swear like sailors, try to act tough (mumbling 'f you' type stuff) and no respect for others versus the consistent "Hello Mr. Chadstroma" with respect for all these boys in my daughters grade.... all last year, where I would say "Hey bud, how are you?" and then think.... who the heck was that kid? As I only knew a couple of the boys (mostly those that had younger siblings) since you kind of only end up knowing the family and kids of our kids sex.... I know most of the girls and their families in my daughters grade and then I know most of the boys and their families for my sons grade.... but not the girls in my sons grade. I later found out, from our friends daughter who knows a few of the kids from the Catholic school that "all the boys are scared of you." which may account for them all being so respectful. lol

My daughter graduates Jr High this year. I very much do not want her to go to the public high school even though it is supposed to be like a top 50 high school in Illinois. I much rather her go to one of the Catholic schools but I don't think we can afford it. We are in that box of making too much money to get a meaningful 'need based' tuition assistance and not enough that it doesn't make a huge dent into our family finances. I am not looking forward to it. I have no interest in public schools.

This is a great story, thank you. That said, I would wager its not a private vs public school thing, it's a good vs bad school thing. May even be large vs small school thing.

Being in a 'very good' public school system there is no comparison between the public schools and our private school. I recognize that this isn't a scientific study conclusion but there is no comparison in my mind and I can only imagine the difference if we did not live in a 'very good' school system.

I hear you. I would put my 'very good' public school system against any school system in the country. IMO it is all about leadership which starts at the top. Top of the school committee and the municipalities in making sure education is properly funded.

 

[JAA]

Quite frankly, and sadly imo, many areas of the country prioritize funding other ventures rather than public schools.

Our schools should be beautiful, safe buildings where teachers are paid a very good wage for doing really important work. We don’t prioritize that and so we get what we get. It sucks.

1000%

Over 2/3 of every tax dollar in our municipality goes to the schools.

I've been paying thousands in property taxes for yearsssssss and I don't have kids. I want a educated populace, but it's being squandered potentially and I don't want to keep paying more. I went to Public schools. So it is sad to hear they have somehow gotten worse?

Fair point, and this is the EXACT conversation I have with residents, let me know if your situation is different:

Resident: My taxes are so high and I pay them but I dont have any kids in school
Me: Actually, your tax rate is just about the lowest it has been in a decade.
Resident: Sure, but my house has gone up in value hence my higher tax bill
Me: Your house going up in value is a good thing right?
Resident: YES! But I only realize that value when I sell it
Me: OK, so you have an asset which has gone up in value a bunch and you get to keep those profits when you choose to sell it. Is this a problem?
Resident: But my taxes are too high!
Me: What is the alternative? Your tax rate is at a long time low, what would you like to happen instead?
Resident: But my taxes!
Me: <crickets>

If you live in a desirable school district, you probably have a home which is worth a lot of money because it is desirable and most likely you are paying a bunch of taxes. If you don't pay a bunch of taxes, chances are you don't live in a desirable school district and thus your home is not that desirable.

How did I do?

In all seriousness, if you don't want to pay the taxes you will have to sell your desirable home.

Well I live in CA and we have Prop 13. Which means I pay about $11,000 per year in property taxes and my neighbor who has been living in her house for 40 years pays about $1,200. Neither of us have kids. But a big ***** of both of those taxes go to schools. How to pay for schools is messy in every state. But yes I see your point.


I don't know why the word "portion got edited hahaha

Oh wow! I have never heard that. I am not in CA, im east coast. That said, it sounds like a very poor system especially if taxes are not correlated to assessed property value. Im sure there are benefits, but ... yea.

 

[JAA]

I'll speed this up and get to the point. "US schools are underfunded" is one of those things that everyone thinks is so, but just isn't so. It's an urban legend. The US spends more per-capita on its public school students than pretty much anybody. No doubt there are individual school and school districts in various parts of the US that funded worse than others, but lack of funding is definitely not a system-wide problem. Or, it's a problem that must be really bad in other countries if it's causing a problem here.

Why is this a problem?

 

[JAA]

A lot of points brought up in here are valid, but also seem like they would have been valid when most of us were in school though

Well, a lot has changed since we were in school. These are my 2 points and THESE ARE NOT POLITICAL:

1. The internet and social media have created an environment, RIGHT OR WRONG, for people, including teachers, administrators, and elected officials to be cancelled.
2. "Leave no child behind." My words here, but we need to get back to holding kids back when they still have things to learn. This could be reading, writing, accountability, responsibility, etc.

Both of those have IMO contributed to our fear based educating.

 

[JAA]

Quite frankly, and sadly imo, many areas of the country prioritize funding other ventures rather than public schools.

Our schools should be beautiful, safe buildings where teachers are paid a very good wage for doing really important work. We don’t prioritize that and so we get what we get. It sucks.

1000%

Over 2/3 of every tax dollar in our municipality goes to the schools.

I've been paying thousands in property taxes for yearsssssss and I don't have kids. I want a educated populace, but it's being squandered potentially and I don't want to keep paying more. I went to Public schools. So it is sad to hear they have somehow gotten worse?

Fair point, and this is the EXACT conversation I have with residents, let me know if your situation is different:

Resident: My taxes are so high and I pay them but I dont have any kids in school
Me: Actually, your tax rate is just about the lowest it has been in a decade.
Resident: Sure, but my house has gone up in value hence my higher tax bill
Me: Your house going up in value is a good thing right?
Resident: YES! But I only realize that value when I sell it
Me: OK, so you have an asset which has gone up in value a bunch and you get to keep those profits when you choose to sell it. Is this a problem?
Resident: But my taxes are too high!
Me: What is the alternative? Your tax rate is at a long time low, what would you like to happen instead?
Resident: But my taxes!
Me: <crickets>

If you live in a desirable school district, you probably have a home which is worth a lot of money because it is desirable and most likely you are paying a bunch of taxes. If you don't pay a bunch of taxes, chances are you don't live in a desirable school district and thus your home is not that desirable.

How did I do?

In all seriousness, if you don't want to pay the taxes you will have to sell your desirable home.

If you had this conversation with me I'd respond with - "Last year my RE taxes went up 32%. Did the school system expense go up 32%"? My school system is top 2% in the country, so a good school system. I'm all for supporting them, but they have plenty of money and I guarantee they don't need 32% more funding.

Ill bite, i'm genuinely curious

Why did your taxes go up? Was it:

1. Increase in property assessed value
2. Increase in property tax rate
3. One time increase in tax levy for a capital project(s)?
   1. This would be like building a new high school, or other local high ticket project
4. One time increase in tax levy for municipal reasons?
   1. Budget shortfall, stabilization, appropriation, etc

My vote is both 3 & 4.

The answer to your question my be a necessary evil to protect property values and I'm happy to explain

 

[JAA]

Quite frankly, and sadly imo, many areas of the country prioritize funding other ventures rather than public schools.

Our schools should be beautiful, safe buildings where teachers are paid a very good wage for doing really important work. We don’t prioritize that and so we get what we get. It sucks.

1000%

Over 2/3 of every tax dollar in our municipality goes to the schools.

I've been paying thousands in property taxes for yearsssssss and I don't have kids. I want a educated populace, but it's being squandered potentially and I don't want to keep paying more. I went to Public schools. So it is sad to hear they have somehow gotten worse?

Fair point, and this is the EXACT conversation I have with residents, let me know if your situation is different:

Resident: My taxes are so high and I pay them but I dont have any kids in school
Me: Actually, your tax rate is just about the lowest it has been in a decade.
Resident: Sure, but my house has gone up in value hence my higher tax bill
Me: Your house going up in value is a good thing right?
Resident: YES! But I only realize that value when I sell it
Me: OK, so you have an asset which has gone up in value a bunch and you get to keep those profits when you choose to sell it. Is this a problem?
Resident: But my taxes are too high!
Me: What is the alternative? Your tax rate is at a long time low, what would you like to happen instead?
Resident: But my taxes!
Me: <crickets>

If you live in a desirable school district, you probably have a home which is worth a lot of money because it is desirable and most likely you are paying a bunch of taxes. If you don't pay a bunch of taxes, chances are you don't live in a desirable school district and thus your home is not that desirable.

How did I do?

In all seriousness, if you don't want to pay the taxes you will have to sell your desirable home.

If you had this conversation with me I'd respond with - "Last year my RE taxes went up 32%. Did the school system expense go up 32%"? My school system is top 2% in the country, so a good school system. I'm all for supporting them, but they have plenty of money and I guarantee they don't need 32% more funding.

I may have missed a post but re taxes are not solely for schools

Sometimes tax increases are solely for schools, especially if a levy is increased to pay for a capital project, like a new school.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

When schools started allowing children to use calculators in school for basic math, that's when things went down hill
My parents taught me addition, subtraction, multiplication and partly division before I even entered Pre-K

 

[SWC]

how are your local schools doing with homecoming prank wars it was all just tp back in my day but now it has become straight up vadalism and property damage what in the hell bromigos that is not something i am used to seeing take that to the bank

 

[Capella]

When schools started allowing children to use calculators in school for basic math, that's when things went down hill
My parents taught me addition, subtraction, multiplication and partly division before I even entered Pre-K

You knew how to do division when you were 4 years old?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I'll speed this up and get to the point. "US schools are underfunded" is one of those things that everyone thinks is so, but just isn't so. It's an urban legend. The US spends more per-capita on its public school students than pretty much anybody. No doubt there are individual school and school districts in various parts of the US that funded worse than others, but lack of funding is definitely not a system-wide problem. Or, it's a problem that must be really bad in other countries if it's causing a problem here.

Why is this a problem?

It isn't a problem IMO. I think our school funding levels are about right, keeping in mind that we're talking about national averages and there's quite a bit of variation across assorted states.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

When schools started allowing children to use calculators in school for basic math, that's when things went down hill
My parents taught me addition, subtraction, multiplication and partly division before I even entered Pre-K

You knew how to do division when you were 4 years old?

Partly
Didn't really master it until 1st grade
I use to get in trouble because I would finish my work a lot faster than everyone else and then get bored and into more trouble

 

[Snoopy]

When schools started allowing children to use calculators in school for basic math, that's when things went down hill
My parents taught me addition, subtraction, multiplication and partly division before I even entered Pre-K

You knew how to do division when you were 4 years old?

Partly
Didn't really master it until 1st grade
I use to get in trouble because I would finish my work a lot faster than everyone else and then get bored and into more trouble

I basically got in trouble because I did it in my head and not "show my work".

 

[Ministry of Pain]

When schools started allowing children to use calculators in school for basic math, that's when things went down hill
My parents taught me addition, subtraction, multiplication and partly division before I even entered Pre-K

You knew how to do division when you were 4 years old?

Partly
Didn't really master it until 1st grade
I use to get in trouble because I would finish my work a lot faster than everyone else and then get bored and into more trouble

I basically got in trouble because I did it in my head and not "show my work".

Same, I would get pounded for that but I always was happy to work it out on the chalkboard to show I knew what I was doing
My parents likely ruined me for a few years in school, the 1st grade teacher asked them to slide me up a grade or two but they refused and I was thankful for that
When I got to High School things changed, my parents did not do Algebra which I had no problem with but Geometry was a major buzzkill for me
I didn't even take a math class my Senior Year of High School

 

[snellman]

A lot of points brought up in here are valid, but also seem like they would have been valid when most of us were in school though

Well, a lot has changed since we were in school. These are my 2 points and THESE ARE NOT POLITICAL:

1. The internet and social media have created an environment, RIGHT OR WRONG, for people, including teachers, administrators, and elected officials to be cancelled.
2. "Leave no child behind." My words here, but we need to get back to holding kids back when they still have things to learn. This could be reading, writing, accountability, responsibility, etc.

Both of those have IMO contributed to our fear based educating.

This is an issue I can agree with and one that I can speak on from personal experience.

When our 2nd youngest child was in Kindergarten, we could see signs that he wasn't mature enough despite turning 6 shortly after school started and was struggling. We tried to hold him back, but the school would have nothing to do with it. We had many arguments with the principal but they moved him onto 1st grade. I know school just isn't for some kids (he was one of them), but It was a battle every year to do homework, read, and other requirements. 2nd-5th grade, they kept threatening him to hold him back every year, but just kept passing him on. By the time he got to JR high and High School when they don't just push you through, he started having to take classes over, then covid hit in his JR year and they went to remote learning which made it even worse because he would do nothing outside of class. By the time his Senior year started he needed so many credits to graduate that there was no way it was going to happen. He ended up dropping out and moving to his dads. 4 years later and he still hasn't gotten his GED. He was a smart kid, just lacked the desire or drive to do anything with it.

I beat myself up daily wondering if it would have been different if I had fought harder to hold him back.

 

[the moops]

A lot of points brought up in here are valid, but also seem like they would have been valid when most of us were in school though

Well, a lot has changed since we were in school. These are my 2 points and THESE ARE NOT POLITICAL:

1. The internet and social media have created an environment, RIGHT OR WRONG, for people, including teachers, administrators, and elected officials to be cancelled.
2. "Leave no child behind." My words here, but we need to get back to holding kids back when they still have things to learn. This could be reading, writing, accountability, responsibility, etc.

Both of those have IMO contributed to our fear based educating.

This is an issue I can agree with and one that I can speak on from personal experience.

When our 2nd youngest child was in Kindergarten, we could see signs that he wasn't mature enough despite turning 6 shortly after school started and was struggling. We tried to hold him back, but the school would have nothing to do with it. We had many arguments with the principal but they moved him onto 1st grade. I know school just isn't for some kids (he was one of them), but It was a battle every year to do homework, read, and other requirements. 2nd-5th grade, they kept threatening him to hold him back every year, but just kept passing him on. By the time he got to JR high and High School when they don't just push you through, he started having to take classes over, then covid hit in his JR year and they went to remote learning which made it even worse because he would do nothing outside of class. By the time his Senior year started he needed so many credits to graduate that there was no way it was going to happen. He ended up dropping out and moving to his dads. 4 years later and he still hasn't gotten his GED. He was a smart kid, just lacked the desire or drive to do anything with it.

I beat myself up daily wondering if it would have been different if I had fought harder to hold him back.

Sorry to hear that. Both our kids are summer babies. Late June and late July. They were smal, and young and shy. The older repeated 1st grade at his now current school. The younger repeated kindergarten in a class room that we loved (had same teacher for the repeat). There was no issue with us having the kids repeating. Wonder why your district was so adamant against. It was a great decision for us for our now 5th and 7th graders are doing wonderfully in their schooling

 

[Nugget]

Key to good education is to live in rich neighborhoods and have well off friends. I spent 2 years at an all boys Jesuit high school and my friends went to Duke and Notre Dame and Georgetown. The kids at Shawnee Mission East did as well. Probably more support for autism and other special needs at the public school - just overall more resources.

 

[ChiefD]

Key to good education is to live in rich neighborhoods and have well off friends. I spent 2 years at an all boys Jesuit high school and my friends went to Duke and Notre Dame and Georgetown. The kids at Shawnee Mission East did as well. Probably more support for autism and other special needs at the public school - just overall more resources.

Your boys would come to my part of KC to get their dope back then.

 

[The Z Machine]

Geometry was a major buzzkill for me

There's an old joke in here somewhere...

 

[belljr]

This thought popped into my head last night and I'm just curious if the process is the same for other states. I think it's still the same for my state but could be wrong.

When I was in grad school I was lining myself up to get my masters and my teaching certification. I won't go into all the specifics but you had to do student teaching, pass classes and then take a certification/proficiency exam to be certified to teach in the public schools. HERE private schools did not require that process. Now I'm not saying everyone who did or did not take it guaranteed a good teacher in the long run but it did help in many cases. Now I think private requires one but not sure. Been a long time since I dipped my toe in education

I'm just curious if the country is similar

 

[Snoopy]

Geometry was a major buzzkill for me

There's an old joke in here somewhere...

Was he being obtuse?

 

[MAC_32]

This thought popped into my head last night and I'm just curious if the process is the same for other states. I think it's still the same for my state but could be wrong.

When I was in grad school I was lining myself up to get my masters and my teaching certification. I won't go into all the specifics but you had to do student teaching, pass classes and then take a certification/proficiency exam to be certified to teach in the public schools. HERE private schools did not require that process. Now I'm not saying everyone who did or did not take it guaranteed a good teacher in the long run but it did help in many cases. Now I think private requires one but not sure. Been a long time since I dipped my toe in education

I'm just curious if the country is similar

The certification issue is over blown. It's not required, but if you have a school full of non-certs the invisible hand does its thing.

 

[The Z Machine]

Geometry was a major buzzkill for me

There's an old joke in here somewhere...

Was he being obtuse?

:laughingemoji:

No, it was about pizza.

 

[JAA]

A lot of points brought up in here are valid, but also seem like they would have been valid when most of us were in school though

Well, a lot has changed since we were in school. These are my 2 points and THESE ARE NOT POLITICAL:

1. The internet and social media have created an environment, RIGHT OR WRONG, for people, including teachers, administrators, and elected officials to be cancelled.
2. "Leave no child behind." My words here, but we need to get back to holding kids back when they still have things to learn. This could be reading, writing, accountability, responsibility, etc.

Both of those have IMO contributed to our fear based educating.

This is an issue I can agree with and one that I can speak on from personal experience.

When our 2nd youngest child was in Kindergarten, we could see signs that he wasn't mature enough despite turning 6 shortly after school started and was struggling. We tried to hold him back, but the school would have nothing to do with it. We had many arguments with the principal but they moved him onto 1st grade. I know school just isn't for some kids (he was one of them), but It was a battle every year to do homework, read, and other requirements. 2nd-5th grade, they kept threatening him to hold him back every year, but just kept passing him on. By the time he got to JR high and High School when they don't just push you through, he started having to take classes over, then covid hit in his JR year and they went to remote learning which made it even worse because he would do nothing outside of class. By the time his Senior year started he needed so many credits to graduate that there was no way it was going to happen. He ended up dropping out and moving to his dads. 4 years later and he still hasn't gotten his GED. He was a smart kid, just lacked the desire or drive to do anything with it.

I beat myself up daily wondering if it would have been different if I had fought harder to hold him back.

Thank you for sharing, great story. Being a parent is hard, there are no manuals on being the best one.

 

[JAA]

Geometry was a major buzzkill for me

There's an old joke in here somewhere...

Was he being obtuse?

Just watched Shawshank last night!

 

[pecorino]

This thought popped into my head last night and I'm just curious if the process is the same for other states. I think it's still the same for my state but could be wrong.

When I was in grad school I was lining myself up to get my masters and my teaching certification. I won't go into all the specifics but you had to do student teaching, pass classes and then take a certification/proficiency exam to be certified to teach in the public schools. HERE private schools did not require that process. Now I'm not saying everyone who did or did not take it guaranteed a good teacher in the long run but it did help in many cases. Now I think private requires one but not sure. Been a long time since I dipped my toe in education

I'm just curious if the country is similar

I've been at private schools my entire working life. Very few require a certification. In fact, I am essentially an academic dean and I'm not qualified to even serve as a sub in public schools because I am not certified. Oddly enough, just yesterday I was engaged in an email exchange with a disgruntled parent who is shocked that her kids' teacher is not certified and so then clearly "not qualified" to teach her child. She obviously believes in the value of state certification. But we're largely indifferent and it plays almost no role when we're looking to hire.

 

[Chadstroma]

This thought popped into my head last night and I'm just curious if the process is the same for other states. I think it's still the same for my state but could be wrong.

When I was in grad school I was lining myself up to get my masters and my teaching certification. I won't go into all the specifics but you had to do student teaching, pass classes and then take a certification/proficiency exam to be certified to teach in the public schools. HERE private schools did not require that process. Now I'm not saying everyone who did or did not take it guaranteed a good teacher in the long run but it did help in many cases. Now I think private requires one but not sure. Been a long time since I dipped my toe in education

I'm just curious if the country is similar

I've been at private schools my entire working life. Very few require a certification. In fact, I am essentially an academic dean and I'm not qualified to even serve as a sub in public schools because I am not certified. Oddly enough, just yesterday I was engaged in an email exchange with a disgruntled parent who is shocked that her kids' teacher is not certified and so then clearly "not qualified" to teach her child. She obviously believes in the value of state certification. But we're largely indifferent and it plays almost no role when we're looking to hire.

I know nothing about teaching certification but I do know about professional licensing (mortgage lending specifically as well as knowing quite a lot about other financial licensing) and if teaching certification is ANYTHING like those professional licensing, then they are absolutely useless and nothing more than a money grab that makes the bureaucracy feel like it is doing something.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

This thought popped into my head last night and I'm just curious if the process is the same for other states. I think it's still the same for my state but could be wrong.

When I was in grad school I was lining myself up to get my masters and my teaching certification. I won't go into all the specifics but you had to do student teaching, pass classes and then take a certification/proficiency exam to be certified to teach in the public schools. HERE private schools did not require that process. Now I'm not saying everyone who did or did not take it guaranteed a good teacher in the long run but it did help in many cases. Now I think private requires one but not sure. Been a long time since I dipped my toe in education

I'm just curious if the country is similar

I've been at private schools my entire working life. Very few require a certification. In fact, I am essentially an academic dean and I'm not qualified to even serve as a sub in public schools because I am not certified. Oddly enough, just yesterday I was engaged in an email exchange with a disgruntled parent who is shocked that her kids' teacher is not certified and so then clearly "not qualified" to teach her child. She obviously believes in the value of state certification. But we're largely indifferent and it plays almost no role when we're looking to hire.

I know nothing about teaching certification but I do know about professional licensing (mortgage lending specifically as well as knowing quite a lot about other financial licensing) and if teaching certification is ANYTHING like those professional licensing, then they are absolutely useless and nothing more than a money grab that makes the bureaucracy feel like it is doing something.

I've spent the last decade (approximately) working in an administrative position that brings me into contact with teacher ed faculty on a regular basis. I'm skeptical about teacher certification.

 

[djmich]

Any idea what caused the overcrowding? It seems to me (outside observer) that our local school board has done a pretty good job looking at our demographics a few years down the road and staying ahead of predictable changes to incoming classes. Was this a case of something happening by surprise, or just folks being asleep at the switch?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say a lack of funding. This is what happens when people continuously vote against levies. What do you want them to do, build another building with no money?

It seems like you're here for an argument. Please leave me out of this.

IK - its a pretty solid response. Voting against increasing the amount of money a town can tax will inhibit its ability to grow at the appropriate rate.

How much does the US spend on its public schools relative to other first-world countries?

I have no idea. I only have my personal, real world, in-depth, first-hand experience.

Okay. If a person is going to lead off with "it's a lack of funding," it seems like we would need to start with a surface-level understanding of what public school funding is actually like. For example, does the US spend more, less, or about the same on its public schools as Germany? Japan? Canada? Surely if we're going to say that our schools are under-funded, we should have a general idea of what their funding level actually is, right?

I'll speed this up and get to the point. "US schools are underfunded" is one of those things that everyone thinks is so, but just isn't so. It's an urban legend. The US spends more per-capita on its public school students than pretty much anybody. No doubt there are individual school and school districts in various parts of the US that funded worse than others, but lack of funding is definitely not a system-wide problem. Or, it's a problem that must be really bad in other countries if it's causing a problem here.

Baltimore seems to be a case study in how funding, on its own, is not very correlated with results.

Baltimore

 

[fantasy stud]

This thought popped into my head last night and I'm just curious if the process is the same for other states. I think it's still the same for my state but could be wrong.

When I was in grad school I was lining myself up to get my masters and my teaching certification. I won't go into all the specifics but you had to do student teaching, pass classes and then take a certification/proficiency exam to be certified to teach in the public schools. HERE private schools did not require that process. Now I'm not saying everyone who did or did not take it guaranteed a good teacher in the long run but it did help in many cases. Now I think private requires one but not sure. Been a long time since I dipped my toe in education

I'm just curious if the country is similar

I've been at private schools my entire working life. Very few require a certification. In fact, I am essentially an academic dean and I'm not qualified to even serve as a sub in public schools because I am not certified. Oddly enough, just yesterday I was engaged in an email exchange with a disgruntled parent who is shocked that her kids' teacher is not certified and so then clearly "not qualified" to teach her child. She obviously believes in the value of state certification. But we're largely indifferent and it plays almost no role when we're looking to hire.

I know nothing about teaching certification but I do know about professional licensing (mortgage lending specifically as well as knowing quite a lot about other financial licensing) and if teaching certification is ANYTHING like those professional licensing, then they are absolutely useless and nothing more than a money grab that makes the bureaucracy feel like it is doing something.

I've spent the last decade (approximately) working in an administrative position that brings me into contact with teacher ed faculty on a regular basis. I'm skeptical about teacher certification.

I might be a little biased since I am a teacher. Maybe certification isn't a necessity . However, teaching is a unique skill set that needs specific training. Knowledge of subject matter is only a small piece of it. I'm thankful for my college training I received to be a teacher.

 

[JAA]

Any idea what caused the overcrowding? It seems to me (outside observer) that our local school board has done a pretty good job looking at our demographics a few years down the road and staying ahead of predictable changes to incoming classes. Was this a case of something happening by surprise, or just folks being asleep at the switch?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say a lack of funding. This is what happens when people continuously vote against levies. What do you want them to do, build another building with no money?

It seems like you're here for an argument. Please leave me out of this.

IK - its a pretty solid response. Voting against increasing the amount of money a town can tax will inhibit its ability to grow at the appropriate rate.

How much does the US spend on its public schools relative to other first-world countries?

I have no idea. I only have my personal, real world, in-depth, first-hand experience.

Okay. If a person is going to lead off with "it's a lack of funding," it seems like we would need to start with a surface-level understanding of what public school funding is actually like. For example, does the US spend more, less, or about the same on its public schools as Germany? Japan? Canada? Surely if we're going to say that our schools are under-funded, we should have a general idea of what their funding level actually is, right?

I'll speed this up and get to the point. "US schools are underfunded" is one of those things that everyone thinks is so, but just isn't so. It's an urban legend. The US spends more per-capita on its public school students than pretty much anybody. No doubt there are individual school and school districts in various parts of the US that funded worse than others, but lack of funding is definitely not a system-wide problem. Or, it's a problem that must be really bad in other countries if it's causing a problem here.

Baltimore seems to be a case study in how funding, on its own, is not very correlated with results.

Baltimore

Those metrics are a bit misleading.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Any idea what caused the overcrowding? It seems to me (outside observer) that our local school board has done a pretty good job looking at our demographics a few years down the road and staying ahead of predictable changes to incoming classes. Was this a case of something happening by surprise, or just folks being asleep at the switch?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say a lack of funding. This is what happens when people continuously vote against levies. What do you want them to do, build another building with no money?

It seems like you're here for an argument. Please leave me out of this.

IK - its a pretty solid response. Voting against increasing the amount of money a town can tax will inhibit its ability to grow at the appropriate rate.

How much does the US spend on its public schools relative to other first-world countries?

I have no idea. I only have my personal, real world, in-depth, first-hand experience.

Okay. If a person is going to lead off with "it's a lack of funding," it seems like we would need to start with a surface-level understanding of what public school funding is actually like. For example, does the US spend more, less, or about the same on its public schools as Germany? Japan? Canada? Surely if we're going to say that our schools are under-funded, we should have a general idea of what their funding level actually is, right?

I'll speed this up and get to the point. "US schools are underfunded" is one of those things that everyone thinks is so, but just isn't so. It's an urban legend. The US spends more per-capita on its public school students than pretty much anybody. No doubt there are individual school and school districts in various parts of the US that funded worse than others, but lack of funding is definitely not a system-wide problem. Or, it's a problem that must be really bad in other countries if it's causing a problem here.

Baltimore seems to be a case study in how funding, on its own, is not very correlated with results.

Baltimore

Those metrics are a bit misleading.

I understand that The Wire is a fictional program, but its depiction of Baltimore is generally considered pretty spot-on, or at least it was pretty spot-on when it aired.

Do you really think the problem with Baltimore schools is that we're not spending enough money on them?

 

[JAA]

Any idea what caused the overcrowding? It seems to me (outside observer) that our local school board has done a pretty good job looking at our demographics a few years down the road and staying ahead of predictable changes to incoming classes. Was this a case of something happening by surprise, or just folks being asleep at the switch?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say a lack of funding. This is what happens when people continuously vote against levies. What do you want them to do, build another building with no money?

It seems like you're here for an argument. Please leave me out of this.

IK - its a pretty solid response. Voting against increasing the amount of money a town can tax will inhibit its ability to grow at the appropriate rate.

How much does the US spend on its public schools relative to other first-world countries?

I have no idea. I only have my personal, real world, in-depth, first-hand experience.

Okay. If a person is going to lead off with "it's a lack of funding," it seems like we would need to start with a surface-level understanding of what public school funding is actually like. For example, does the US spend more, less, or about the same on its public schools as Germany? Japan? Canada? Surely if we're going to say that our schools are under-funded, we should have a general idea of what their funding level actually is, right?

I'll speed this up and get to the point. "US schools are underfunded" is one of those things that everyone thinks is so, but just isn't so. It's an urban legend. The US spends more per-capita on its public school students than pretty much anybody. No doubt there are individual school and school districts in various parts of the US that funded worse than others, but lack of funding is definitely not a system-wide problem. Or, it's a problem that must be really bad in other countries if it's causing a problem here.

Baltimore seems to be a case study in how funding, on its own, is not very correlated with results.

Baltimore

Those metrics are a bit misleading.

I understand that The Wire is a fictional program, but its depiction of Baltimore is generally considered pretty spot-on, or at least it was pretty spot-on when it aired.

Do you really think the problem with Baltimore schools is that we're not spending enough money on them?

The only metric worth discussing on that link is the ">$21,000 per pupil funding." However, we need to know much more information about the overall budget, population, and costs before understanding if the number is high.

My guess would be that there are too much Administration costs (which would be expected for a city), though I would imagine the underlying problem is administration has over decades kicked-down-the-road infrastructure costs. Passing the buck on hard choices like infrastructure is typical with poor leadership.

 

[djmich]

Any idea what caused the overcrowding? It seems to me (outside observer) that our local school board has done a pretty good job looking at our demographics a few years down the road and staying ahead of predictable changes to incoming classes. Was this a case of something happening by surprise, or just folks being asleep at the switch?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say a lack of funding. This is what happens when people continuously vote against levies. What do you want them to do, build another building with no money?

It seems like you're here for an argument. Please leave me out of this.

IK - its a pretty solid response. Voting against increasing the amount of money a town can tax will inhibit its ability to grow at the appropriate rate.

How much does the US spend on its public schools relative to other first-world countries?

I have no idea. I only have my personal, real world, in-depth, first-hand experience.

Okay. If a person is going to lead off with "it's a lack of funding," it seems like we would need to start with a surface-level understanding of what public school funding is actually like. For example, does the US spend more, less, or about the same on its public schools as Germany? Japan? Canada? Surely if we're going to say that our schools are under-funded, we should have a general idea of what their funding level actually is, right?

I'll speed this up and get to the point. "US schools are underfunded" is one of those things that everyone thinks is so, but just isn't so. It's an urban legend. The US spends more per-capita on its public school students than pretty much anybody. No doubt there are individual school and school districts in various parts of the US that funded worse than others, but lack of funding is definitely not a system-wide problem. Or, it's a problem that must be really bad in other countries if it's causing a problem here.

Baltimore seems to be a case study in how funding, on its own, is not very correlated with results.

Baltimore

Those metrics are a bit misleading.

I understand that The Wire is a fictional program, but its depiction of Baltimore is generally considered pretty spot-on, or at least it was pretty spot-on when it aired.

Do you really think the problem with Baltimore schools is that we're not spending enough money on them?

The only metric worth discussing on that link is the ">$21,000 per pupil funding." However, we need to know much more information about the overall budget, population, and costs before understanding if the number is high.

My guess would be that there are too much Administration costs (which would be expected for a city), though I would imagine the underlying problem is administration has over decades kicked-down-the-road infrastructure costs. Passing the buck on hard choices like infrastructure is typical with poor leadership.

If only $700M would fall out of the sky to help with infrastructure. Oh wait

 

[The Z Machine]

Any idea what caused the overcrowding? It seems to me (outside observer) that our local school board has done a pretty good job looking at our demographics a few years down the road and staying ahead of predictable changes to incoming classes. Was this a case of something happening by surprise, or just folks being asleep at the switch?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say a lack of funding. This is what happens when people continuously vote against levies. What do you want them to do, build another building with no money?

It seems like you're here for an argument. Please leave me out of this.

IK - its a pretty solid response. Voting against increasing the amount of money a town can tax will inhibit its ability to grow at the appropriate rate.

How much does the US spend on its public schools relative to other first-world countries?

I have no idea. I only have my personal, real world, in-depth, first-hand experience.

Okay. If a person is going to lead off with "it's a lack of funding," it seems like we would need to start with a surface-level understanding of what public school funding is actually like. For example, does the US spend more, less, or about the same on its public schools as Germany? Japan? Canada? Surely if we're going to say that our schools are under-funded, we should have a general idea of what their funding level actually is, right?

I'll speed this up and get to the point. "US schools are underfunded" is one of those things that everyone thinks is so, but just isn't so. It's an urban legend. The US spends more per-capita on its public school students than pretty much anybody. No doubt there are individual school and school districts in various parts of the US that funded worse than others, but lack of funding is definitely not a system-wide problem. Or, it's a problem that must be really bad in other countries if it's causing a problem here.

Baltimore seems to be a case study in how funding, on its own, is not very correlated with results.

Baltimore

Very true. There are a ton of structural / foundational issues with the kids and schools that cannot be addressed with funding only. Despite the money spent per pupil, some of the schools are in appalling states of disrepair. Many have heating problems in the winter and some don't have AC for the hot times either.

My kids were in Baltimore City schools for 6 years, BTW.

 

[JAA]

Any idea what caused the overcrowding? It seems to me (outside observer) that our local school board has done a pretty good job looking at our demographics a few years down the road and staying ahead of predictable changes to incoming classes. Was this a case of something happening by surprise, or just folks being asleep at the switch?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say a lack of funding. This is what happens when people continuously vote against levies. What do you want them to do, build another building with no money?

It seems like you're here for an argument. Please leave me out of this.

IK - its a pretty solid response. Voting against increasing the amount of money a town can tax will inhibit its ability to grow at the appropriate rate.

How much does the US spend on its public schools relative to other first-world countries?

I have no idea. I only have my personal, real world, in-depth, first-hand experience.

Okay. If a person is going to lead off with "it's a lack of funding," it seems like we would need to start with a surface-level understanding of what public school funding is actually like. For example, does the US spend more, less, or about the same on its public schools as Germany? Japan? Canada? Surely if we're going to say that our schools are under-funded, we should have a general idea of what their funding level actually is, right?

I'll speed this up and get to the point. "US schools are underfunded" is one of those things that everyone thinks is so, but just isn't so. It's an urban legend. The US spends more per-capita on its public school students than pretty much anybody. No doubt there are individual school and school districts in various parts of the US that funded worse than others, but lack of funding is definitely not a system-wide problem. Or, it's a problem that must be really bad in other countries if it's causing a problem here.

Baltimore seems to be a case study in how funding, on its own, is not very correlated with results.

Baltimore

Those metrics are a bit misleading.

I understand that The Wire is a fictional program, but its depiction of Baltimore is generally considered pretty spot-on, or at least it was pretty spot-on when it aired.

Do you really think the problem with Baltimore schools is that we're not spending enough money on them?

The only metric worth discussing on that link is the ">$21,000 per pupil funding." However, we need to know much more information about the overall budget, population, and costs before understanding if the number is high.

My guess would be that there are too much Administration costs (which would be expected for a city), though I would imagine the underlying problem is administration has over decades kicked-down-the-road infrastructure costs. Passing the buck on hard choices like infrastructure is typical with poor leadership.

If only $700M would fall out of the sky to help with infrastructure. Oh wait

Sure - $700m is a large number. But is not that large when you consider the costs of a new school building. I would wager the average cost of a new school building is no less than $100m. Thats for a single school with less than 1k students in it.

700m is a lot of money. But it is not enough money to fix all problems if you are talking about fixing dozens of schools.

Not knowing anything about the Baltimore school district, my guess would be the problem is it is too large and bloated in general. I base this on the superintendent salary of 450k. That’s a lot for a single leader. I would rather see that broken into 4 different districts. Sure, the concept of “shared resources” may not be as efficient, but in my experience any PPT presentation which plans out how we will “share resources across entities” is always a pie in the sky concept that rarely actually works.

Break apart the city schools into distinct districts and solve them independently.

 

[djmich]

Any idea what caused the overcrowding? It seems to me (outside observer) that our local school board has done a pretty good job looking at our demographics a few years down the road and staying ahead of predictable changes to incoming classes. Was this a case of something happening by surprise, or just folks being asleep at the switch?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say a lack of funding. This is what happens when people continuously vote against levies. What do you want them to do, build another building with no money?

It seems like you're here for an argument. Please leave me out of this.

IK - its a pretty solid response. Voting against increasing the amount of money a town can tax will inhibit its ability to grow at the appropriate rate.

How much does the US spend on its public schools relative to other first-world countries?

I have no idea. I only have my personal, real world, in-depth, first-hand experience.

Okay. If a person is going to lead off with "it's a lack of funding," it seems like we would need to start with a surface-level understanding of what public school funding is actually like. For example, does the US spend more, less, or about the same on its public schools as Germany? Japan? Canada? Surely if we're going to say that our schools are under-funded, we should have a general idea of what their funding level actually is, right?

I'll speed this up and get to the point. "US schools are underfunded" is one of those things that everyone thinks is so, but just isn't so. It's an urban legend. The US spends more per-capita on its public school students than pretty much anybody. No doubt there are individual school and school districts in various parts of the US that funded worse than others, but lack of funding is definitely not a system-wide problem. Or, it's a problem that must be really bad in other countries if it's causing a problem here.

Baltimore seems to be a case study in how funding, on its own, is not very correlated with results.

Baltimore

Those metrics are a bit misleading.

I understand that The Wire is a fictional program, but its depiction of Baltimore is generally considered pretty spot-on, or at least it was pretty spot-on when it aired.

Do you really think the problem with Baltimore schools is that we're not spending enough money on them?

The only metric worth discussing on that link is the ">$21,000 per pupil funding." However, we need to know much more information about the overall budget, population, and costs before understanding if the number is high.

My guess would be that there are too much Administration costs (which would be expected for a city), though I would imagine the underlying problem is administration has over decades kicked-down-the-road infrastructure costs. Passing the buck on hard choices like infrastructure is typical with poor leadership.

If only $700M would fall out of the sky to help with infrastructure. Oh wait

Sure - $700m is a large number. But is not that large when you consider the costs of a new school building. I would wager the average cost of a new school building is no less than $100m. Thats for a single school with less than 1k students in it.

700m is a lot of money. But it is not enough money to fix all problems if you are talking about fixing dozens of schools.

Not knowing anything about the Baltimore school district, my guess would be the problem is it is too large and bloated in general. I base this on the superintendent salary of 450k. That’s a lot for a single leader. I would rather see that broken into 4 different districts. Sure, the concept of “shared resources” may not be as efficient, but in my experience any PPT presentation which plans out how we will “share resources across entities” is always a pie in the sky concept that rarely actually works.

Break apart the city schools into distinct districts and solve them independently.

I'm sorry but $700M EXTRA is a lot of money, its is on top of the $21,000 already spent per student. For the bolded to mean much to me it needs a bit more explaining because at face value it seems that at this point money is having zero positive return on results. I'm gonna guess it could have been $1.5B and that wouldn't have been enough to "fix all the problems".

 

[IvanKaramazov]

The lesson I drew from The Wire is that the problem with Baltimore schools is the population that those schools serve. You could throw infinity dollars at that system and it wouldn't make any difference. That's why my rural town's schools are solid and so many inner cities schools aren't. It's the people, not the funding. Obviously there is a baseline level of funding that you need for anything to work, but it seems like once you get beyond that level, the quality of students, parents, and local leaders matters more than dollars.

 

[The Z Machine]

Break apart the city schools into distinct districts and solve them independently.

As a former BMore city resident, there would be no way of doing that without some legitimate equity / diversity concerns, assuming you broke them up geographically into 4 districts. It's a non-starter IMO.

I know someone that works in the BCPSS central office and I will say that while the grant money is great and welcome, it does add to the overhead necessary for compliance with the grants. It also adds to the complexity of district management and coordination.

Also the "CEO" of BCPSS is paid too much. That's a stupid amount of money.

 

[The Z Machine]

like once you get beyond that level, the quality of students, parents, and local leaders matters more than dollars.

Yes and no.

You're right that the education that most BMore City kids get before K or Pre-K4 is very poor to non-existent. So many families living below the poverty line, scraping jobs and gigs together to make ends meet and put food on the table. Many parents not involved enough with their kids' early learning or simply not around enough. It's really tragic. There's so much structural violence built up in the city that it often cannot be overcome. An example is that one student in my kids' class had his father murdered on the street for a drug deal gone bad. The kid was 9 when it happened. Imagine your father being killed at 9 years old and how that might affect the trajectory of your life.

But like I said upthread, there are schools that were built in the 50s and 60s that lack adequate facilities. Poor heating, pipes freezing, flooding, rodents, no AC, roof leaks, etc. These facilities were not maintained over the last 60 years due to lack of investment, poor resource allocation, and general ineptitude, or even graft. That can be addressed by putting dollars into the facilities. And because the teaching of kids that come extreme poverty can be very challenging, it often costs more in teacher salary to retain the teachers willing to work in that space.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

like once you get beyond that level, the quality of students, parents, and local leaders matters more than dollars.

Yes and no.

You're right that the education that most BMore City kids get before K or Pre-K4 is very poor to non-existent. So many families living below the poverty line, scraping jobs and gigs together to make ends meet and put food on the table. Many parents not involved enough with their kids' early learning or simply not around enough. It's really tragic. There's so much structural violence built up in the city that it often cannot be overcome. An example is that one student in my kids' class had his father murdered on the street for a drug deal gone bad. The kid was 9 when it happened. Imagine your father being killed at 9 years old and how that might affect the trajectory of your life.

But like I said upthread, there are schools that were built in the 50s and 60s that lack adequate facilities. Poor heating, pipes freezing, flooding, rodents, no AC, roof leaks, etc. These facilities were not maintained over the last 60 years due to lack of investment, poor resource allocation, and general ineptitude, or even graft. That can be addressed by putting dollars into the facilities. And because the teaching of kids that come extreme poverty can be very challenging, it often costs more in teacher salary to retain the teachers willing to work in that space.

We agree. You are not going to have well-functioning schools when people are getting shot dead in the streets on a regular basis.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Any idea what caused the overcrowding? It seems to me (outside observer) that our local school board has done a pretty good job looking at our demographics a few years down the road and staying ahead of predictable changes to incoming classes. Was this a case of something happening by surprise, or just folks being asleep at the switch?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say a lack of funding. This is what happens when people continuously vote against levies. What do you want them to do, build another building with no money?

It seems like you're here for an argument. Please leave me out of this.

IK - its a pretty solid response. Voting against increasing the amount of money a town can tax will inhibit its ability to grow at the appropriate rate.

How much does the US spend on its public schools relative to other first-world countries?

I have no idea. I only have my personal, real world, in-depth, first-hand experience.

Okay. If a person is going to lead off with "it's a lack of funding," it seems like we would need to start with a surface-level understanding of what public school funding is actually like. For example, does the US spend more, less, or about the same on its public schools as Germany? Japan? Canada? Surely if we're going to say that our schools are under-funded, we should have a general idea of what their funding level actually is, right?

I'll speed this up and get to the point. "US schools are underfunded" is one of those things that everyone thinks is so, but just isn't so. It's an urban legend. The US spends more per-capita on its public school students than pretty much anybody. No doubt there are individual school and school districts in various parts of the US that funded worse than others, but lack of funding is definitely not a system-wide problem. Or, it's a problem that must be really bad in other countries if it's causing a problem here.

I'm guessing that a large portion of the US spending more can mostly be broken into 3 categories:
1. Higher COL and wages than most of the world. The cost to staff a school or school district is going to be near the top in the world. So will maintenance costs and capital improvements.
2. Broad services - one of the things that makes me most proud to be an American is how we address children with handicaps or learning disabilities - I'm not sure there is another country that takes as good of care of these kids as we do. But that comes at a significant financial cost. If we just ignored these kids or stuck them all in one classroom, it would be much cheaper, but we all know that is wrong. I would be surprised to hear that we spend less on high-needs kids than any other country in the world.
3. Inefficiencies and bureaucracy - I think we've beat this to death in this thread, but I do imagine there is more "wasted" money in this area than many other countries.

Agreed on all counts. And to be clear, I'm not saying that we spend too much on education or anything like that. It's just good understand that the US actually does spend quite a lot on its schools, and that seems appropriate.

To be fair, the budget thing was brought up in relation to class sizes, and we do have smaller class sizes than other countries (but larger class sizes than we used to, which is what people were talking about when budget was brought up).

The question at the start was "what is causing overcrowding", to which some brought up funding as the answer. When I was a kid there were 240 million people in the US. Now there are 340 million people. That's a 42% increase. Yet in my town between those two times there has been a 0% increase in the number of schools, and I haven't seen any major renovations that would add a large number classrooms (they were already decked out with portables even back when I was a kid).

So we're more crowded now than we were back then, simply because the number of kids has increased at a rate faster than the amount of funding to build new schools.

But globally, we are still funded well, and still have what would be considered small class sizes. The average size of an elementary school class in the UK is 27. In Japan it is also 27. In the USA it is 20.

So maybe part of it is that our standards are higher and we're somewhat spoiled that we had exceptionally small class sizes back when our population was smaller, such that we now complain about class sizes the rest of the world would still consider small.

So I suppose both can be true. Class sizes are growing because the number of kids in schools is growing faster than the funding needed to accomodate more kids in schools. But globally our class sizes are still reasonable, and what we call "overcrowded" other countries would call "normal".

 

[pecorino]

Any idea what caused the overcrowding? It seems to me (outside observer) that our local school board has done a pretty good job looking at our demographics a few years down the road and staying ahead of predictable changes to incoming classes. Was this a case of something happening by surprise, or just folks being asleep at the switch?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say a lack of funding. This is what happens when people continuously vote against levies. What do you want them to do, build another building with no money?

It seems like you're here for an argument. Please leave me out of this.

IK - its a pretty solid response. Voting against increasing the amount of money a town can tax will inhibit its ability to grow at the appropriate rate.

How much does the US spend on its public schools relative to other first-world countries?

I have no idea. I only have my personal, real world, in-depth, first-hand experience.

Okay. If a person is going to lead off with "it's a lack of funding," it seems like we would need to start with a surface-level understanding of what public school funding is actually like. For example, does the US spend more, less, or about the same on its public schools as Germany? Japan? Canada? Surely if we're going to say that our schools are under-funded, we should have a general idea of what their funding level actually is, right?

I'll speed this up and get to the point. "US schools are underfunded" is one of those things that everyone thinks is so, but just isn't so. It's an urban legend. The US spends more per-capita on its public school students than pretty much anybody. No doubt there are individual school and school districts in various parts of the US that funded worse than others, but lack of funding is definitely not a system-wide problem. Or, it's a problem that must be really bad in other countries if it's causing a problem here.

Baltimore seems to be a case study in how funding, on its own, is not very correlated with results.

Baltimore

Those metrics are a bit misleading.

I understand that The Wire is a fictional program, but its depiction of Baltimore is generally considered pretty spot-on, or at least it was pretty spot-on when it aired.

Do you really think the problem with Baltimore schools is that we're not spending enough money on them?

My uncle taught middle school math for a few years in the 70s then went into business for himself (auto mechanic) for about 30 years before returning to the classroom to teach again. He was in the Baltimore school system for about ten years in the aughts and told me that, as a business owner, if he had the authority to run it he would shut the entire thing down and reboot the public school system in Baltimore. The level of waste was off the charts and the admin made one bonehead decision after another. Every year his incredulity grew as the system got more and more top-heavy and wasteful with no real benefit in the kids' learning.

 

[JAA]

Any idea what caused the overcrowding? It seems to me (outside observer) that our local school board has done a pretty good job looking at our demographics a few years down the road and staying ahead of predictable changes to incoming classes. Was this a case of something happening by surprise, or just folks being asleep at the switch?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say a lack of funding. This is what happens when people continuously vote against levies. What do you want them to do, build another building with no money?

It seems like you're here for an argument. Please leave me out of this.

IK - its a pretty solid response. Voting against increasing the amount of money a town can tax will inhibit its ability to grow at the appropriate rate.

How much does the US spend on its public schools relative to other first-world countries?

I have no idea. I only have my personal, real world, in-depth, first-hand experience.

Okay. If a person is going to lead off with "it's a lack of funding," it seems like we would need to start with a surface-level understanding of what public school funding is actually like. For example, does the US spend more, less, or about the same on its public schools as Germany? Japan? Canada? Surely if we're going to say that our schools are under-funded, we should have a general idea of what their funding level actually is, right?

I'll speed this up and get to the point. "US schools are underfunded" is one of those things that everyone thinks is so, but just isn't so. It's an urban legend. The US spends more per-capita on its public school students than pretty much anybody. No doubt there are individual school and school districts in various parts of the US that funded worse than others, but lack of funding is definitely not a system-wide problem. Or, it's a problem that must be really bad in other countries if it's causing a problem here.

Baltimore seems to be a case study in how funding, on its own, is not very correlated with results.

Baltimore

Those metrics are a bit misleading.

I understand that The Wire is a fictional program, but its depiction of Baltimore is generally considered pretty spot-on, or at least it was pretty spot-on when it aired.

Do you really think the problem with Baltimore schools is that we're not spending enough money on them?

The only metric worth discussing on that link is the ">$21,000 per pupil funding." However, we need to know much more information about the overall budget, population, and costs before understanding if the number is high.

My guess would be that there are too much Administration costs (which would be expected for a city), though I would imagine the underlying problem is administration has over decades kicked-down-the-road infrastructure costs. Passing the buck on hard choices like infrastructure is typical with poor leadership.

If only $700M would fall out of the sky to help with infrastructure. Oh wait

Sure - $700m is a large number. But is not that large when you consider the costs of a new school building. I would wager the average cost of a new school building is no less than $100m. Thats for a single school with less than 1k students in it.

700m is a lot of money. But it is not enough money to fix all problems if you are talking about fixing dozens of schools.

Not knowing anything about the Baltimore school district, my guess would be the problem is it is too large and bloated in general. I base this on the superintendent salary of 450k. That’s a lot for a single leader. I would rather see that broken into 4 different districts. Sure, the concept of “shared resources” may not be as efficient, but in my experience any PPT presentation which plans out how we will “share resources across entities” is always a pie in the sky concept that rarely actually works.

Break apart the city schools into distinct districts and solve them independently.

I'm sorry but $700M EXTRA is a lot of money, its is on top of the $21,000 already spent per student. For the bolded to mean much to me it needs a bit more explaining because at face value it seems that at this point money is having zero positive return on results. I'm gonna guess it could have been $1.5B and that wouldn't have been enough to "fix all the problems".

We are building 1 new high school for ~2k students. The building will cost ~$150m. $700m, one time, may or may not be "a lot of money". Hence me saying we need much more information before having an informed opinion.