Public Schools are getting worse (1 Viewer)

[MAC_32]

I wish I could take my tax money that funds our district and use it for private school.

I'd be willing to bet if you were refunded the percentage of your tax bill that goes toward your local public school the amount wouldn't be close to affording the cost of private schools. I know it wouldn't in my region.

Not true anymore. EdChoice expansion changed that in Ohio last year.

 

[Galileo]

I don’t have a strong opinion but I was in a bookstore the other day and heard some guy talking about how he’s only in his second year as a middle school science teacher and he’s now the only science teacher in the school so he was named the head of the department…

I became the Science Department Chair in my second year of teaching back in 1992. The principal who hired me was really making an effort to affect change in the system and wanted to shake some things up to help infuse her vision. When she offered me the chair position, she said if I did not take the position, there simply would not be a science department chair. Young naive me thought that sounded like a bad idea, so I accepted. The department chair who I replaced, the biology teacher at the time, didn't talk to me the rest of the year.

 

[Galileo]

I wish I could take my tax money that funds our district and use it for private school.

I'd be willing to bet if you were refunded the percentage of your tax bill that goes toward your local public school the amount wouldn't be close to affording the cost of private schools. I know it wouldn't in my region.

Not true anymore. EdChoice expansion changed that in Ohio last year.

Admittedly, I am not well versed in that program, but isn't that a scholarship program that is income dependent and geared towards lower income families? What is that amount awarded through that program? Does that really help the middle class level family much? Even with this program, I am not sure that changes my claim. Private schools in NE Ohio are through the roof. The Western Reserve Academy, Hawken, Gilmour type schools are $40k+ per year. The parochial schools like Ignatius, Walsh are in the $15-20k range.

 

[Nugget]

I wish I could take my tax money that funds our district and use it for private school.

I'd be willing to bet if you were refunded the percentage of your tax bill that goes toward your local public school the amount wouldn't be close to affording the cost of private schools. I know it wouldn't in my region.

Not true anymore. EdChoice expansion changed that in Ohio last year.

Admittedly, I am not well versed in that program, but isn't that a scholarship program that is income dependent and geared towards lower income families? What is that amount awarded through that program? Does that really help the middle class level family much? Even with this program, I am not sure that changes my claim. Private schools in NE Ohio are through the roof. The Western Reserve Academy, Hawken, Gilmour type schools are $40k+ per year. The parochial schools like Ignatius, Walsh are in the $15-20k range.

18K for kindergarten in KC private school. Can’t imagine California pricing.

 

[MAC_32]

I wish I could take my tax money that funds our district and use it for private school.

I'd be willing to bet if you were refunded the percentage of your tax bill that goes toward your local public school the amount wouldn't be close to affording the cost of private schools. I know it wouldn't in my region.

Not true anymore. EdChoice expansion changed that in Ohio last year.

Admittedly, I am not well versed in that program, but isn't that a scholarship program that is income dependent and geared towards lower income families? What is that amount awarded through that program? Does that really help the middle class level family much? Even with this program, I am not sure that changes my claim. Private schools in NE Ohio are through the roof. The Western Reserve Academy, Hawken, Gilmour type schools are $40k+ per year. The parochial schools like Ignatius, Walsh are in the $15-20k range.

It's a game changer for the middle class.

Max K-8 award is $6166
High school is $8408

Max award is for those up to 450% federal poverty level, calculation is based on family size but it's ~$165K for a family 5 and ~75% of Ohioans qualify for the max - sliding scale once beyond 450%.

2 important note I can share on high school tuition rates- they've not been charging the sticker price for some time and a nonzero # of non-parochial schools have family's sign NDA's (because if they want you, they'll make the $ work).

Important note I can't share much because I'm bound to confidentiality- we won't have all information until reporting is due in October, but based on early returns the parochial schools didn't meaningfully change their discount models year-over-year. From what I've seen it appears to be an effort to bring in more middle class students than they have in the past. Can't say any more than that though. We have EdChoice opponents we need to bury with data once we have it

 

[Ilov80s]

I wish I could take my tax money that funds our district and use it for private school.

I'd be willing to bet if you were refunded the percentage of your tax bill that goes toward your local public school the amount wouldn't be close to affording the cost of private schools. I know it wouldn't in my region.

Not true anymore. EdChoice expansion changed that in Ohio last year.

Admittedly, I am not well versed in that program, but isn't that a scholarship program that is income dependent and geared towards lower income families? What is that amount awarded through that program? Does that really help the middle class level family much? Even with this program, I am not sure that changes my claim. Private schools in NE Ohio are through the roof. The Western Reserve Academy, Hawken, Gilmour type schools are $40k+ per year. The parochial schools like Ignatius, Walsh are in the $15-20k range.

It's a game changer for the middle class.

Max K-8 award is $6166
High school is $8408

Max award is for those up to 450% federal poverty level, calculation is based on family size but it's ~$165K for a family 5 and ~75% of Ohioans qualify for the max - sliding scale once beyond 450%.

2 important note I can share on high school tuition rates- they've not been charging the sticker price for some time and a nonzero # of non-parochial schools have family's sign NDA's (because if they want you, they'll make the $ work).

Important note I can't share much because I'm bound to confidentiality- we won't have all information until reporting is due in October, but based on early returns the parochial schools didn't meaningfully change their discount models year-over-year. From what I've seen it appears to be an effort to bring in more middle class students than they have in the past. Can't say any more than that though. We have EdChoice opponents we need to bury with data once we have it

The biggest criticism I assume you will get is the near $1 billion coming out of the public schools to pay for Edchoice and I thought (but certainly know less than you) that it hasn’t resulted in a significant shift in the number of kids attending public vs private, it’s mostly money for kids who were already in private schools.

 

[MAC_32]

The biggest criticism I assume you will get is the near $1 billion coming out of the public schools to pay for Edchoice and I thought (but certainly know less than you) that it hasn’t resulted in a significant shift in the number of kids attending public vs private, it’s mostly money for kids who were already in private schools.

It's a daily battle- just got out of a meeting getting in front of another hit piece. Way too brief summary- the $ funding EdChoice aren't coming from public schools and the data for kids shifting from public to private won't be reflected for a few years. Expansion went live July '23, so there was no time for the public kids to shift. This year we're only expecting those that would've done it before, but couldn't afford it. Future years, we're expecting to see the shift at lower grades (K and freshman) because kids don't want to leave their established friends. Right-sizing won't take shape until next decade give-or-take, but opponents are leveraging their media resources to get in front of that data to control the narrative.

 

[parasaurolophus]

You can prep for a test. There's no doubt in my mind. There are cheat codes.

For sure. In college my ran ACT test prep classes ran by the ACT. She said with just 10-20 hours of instruction, kids were pretty much guaranteed to signficantly raise their scores just based on how they took the test.

ACT prep classes being successful in 10 hours actually shows that schools dont teach to the test.

 

[msudaisy26]

You can prep for a test. There's no doubt in my mind. There are cheat codes.

For sure. In college my ran ACT test prep classes ran by the ACT. She said with just 10-20 hours of instruction, kids were pretty much guaranteed to signficantly raise their scores just based on how they took the test.

ACT prep classes being successful in 10 hours actually shows that schools dont teach to the test.

Are you saying they don't teach towards tests or just the ACT? I have taught or been an administrator in 5 different schools over my career that have varied in diversity and wealth from the top to the bottom and they all taught to score well on the MSTEP. This is Michigan's statewide test.

 

[Hooper31]

Please drop the "fong you" shtick (kick/whip?) though as that doesn't help real discussion.

Apologies. It's a funny line from a movie. Not a serious threat and not directed at anyone specifically.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Are you saying they don't teach towards tests or just the ACT? I have taught or been an administrator in 5 different schools over my career that have varied in diversity and wealth from the top to the bottom and they all taught to score well on the MSTEP. This is Michigan's statewide tes

I am saying "teaching to the test" is basically a big fat myth. A dumb talking point. A boogeyman.

People that use that phrase to talk about what is wrong with testing arent saying "omg schools spent 10 hours preparing students for the procedures and format involved with the single biggest test that they take most years"

They use that phrase as if the kids will spend the whole year not actually really learning subject material, but mysteriously working on said test which will allow them to mysteriously spit out correct answers and remain empty vessels.

The reality is tests measure knowledge. If teachers are well aware that certain things will show up on tests and make sure that the kids know those things, that is highly likely to be because those things are important. That's not a cheat code. That isnt gaming the system. That is actually the system working.

It isnt like the test comes out and each year question number 1 is answered with b and 2 is c and 3 is b again and boom, 3 correct answer head start because we taught the test.

Of course schools should get kids familiar with the timing of a test, the format, when to guess, when to punt, etc. Thats what i said earlier and I stand by these being good things to learn overall. It is like a yearly time and project management mini course.

But we are talking a small fraction of class time here.

 

[rockaction]

You can prep for a test. There's no doubt in my mind. There are cheat codes.

For sure. In college my ran ACT test prep classes ran by the ACT. She said with just 10-20 hours of instruction, kids were pretty much guaranteed to signficantly raise their scores just based on how they took the test.

ACT prep classes being successful in 10 hours actually shows that schools dont teach to the test.

Depends which test, para. I think ilov80s and msudaisy (later in the thread) are talking about state exams that track student competency and achievement. In this case, the “teaching to the test” is about a statewide exam, not the extracurricular ACT and SAT.

Schools should teach the SAT and ACT, if you ask me. There’s enough free material. All you’d have to do is get the serious students together and have a few pow-wow sessions. Administratively, I’m not sure how it’d need to be done, but it sounds pretty low-cost and worthwhile to me.

 

[msudaisy26]

Are you saying they don't teach towards tests or just the ACT? I have taught or been an administrator in 5 different schools over my career that have varied in diversity and wealth from the top to the bottom and they all taught to score well on the MSTEP. This is Michigan's statewide tes

I am saying "teaching to the test" is basically a big fat myth. A dumb talking point. A boogeyman.

People that use that phrase to talk about what is wrong with testing arent saying "omg schools spent 10 hours preparing students for the procedures and format involved with the single biggest test that they take most years"

They use that phrase as if the kids will spend the whole year not actually really learning subject material, but mysteriously working on said test which will allow them to mysteriously spit out correct answers and remain empty vessels.

The reality is tests measure knowledge. If teachers are well aware that certain things will show up on tests and make sure that the kids know those things, that is highly likely to be because those things are important. That's not a cheat code. That isnt gaming the system. That is actually the system working.

It isnt like the test comes out and each year question number 1 is answered with b and 2 is c and 3 is b again and boom, 3 correct answer head start because we taught the test.

Of course schools should get kids familiar with the timing of a test, the format, when to guess, when to punt, etc. Thats what i said earlier and I stand by these being good things to learn overall. It is like a yearly time and project management mini course.

But we are talking a small fraction of class time here.

Sorry it isn't a myth, I sit in those meetings several times a year where we go over strategies to boost our MSTEP scores.

 

[Max Power]

All the talk of ACT/SATs... Is there a working theory as to why those test scores have been falling? ACTs are at their lowest scores in 30 years. I assume its mostly due to learning loss from Covid, but ACTs starting trending down in 2017-2018. Now that we're seeing the scores fall, what is the plan to fix them? In efforts to not penalize kids for covid years, we've pushed them through the system without the pre-requisite skills for their current grade and the result seems to be slowing down the class overall or oversimplifying the materials.

 

[Ilov80s]

All the talk of ACT/SATs... Is there a working theory as to why those test scores have been falling? ACTs are at their lowest scores in 30 years. I assume its mostly due to learning loss from Covid, but ACTs starting trending down in 2017-2018. Now that we're seeing the scores fall, what is the plan to fix them? In efforts to not penalize kids for covid years, we've pushed them through the system without the pre-requisite skills for their current grade and the result seems to be slowing down the class overall or oversimplifying the materials.

I believe it’s especially the reading scores that have dropped significantly and it’s pretty easy to see why imo. Kids don’t read as much as they used to.

 

[Rich Conway]

All the talk of ACT/SATs... Is there a working theory as to why those test scores have been falling? ACTs are at their lowest scores in 30 years. I assume its mostly due to learning loss from Covid, but ACTs starting trending down in 2017-2018. Now that we're seeing the scores fall, what is the plan to fix them? In efforts to not penalize kids for covid years, we've pushed them through the system without the pre-requisite skills for their current grade and the result seems to be slowing down the class overall or oversimplifying the materials.

Doesn't explain the entire trend, but there just has to be a correlation/causation from "colleges don't require you to submit scores" to "scores get lower". In a "scores are mandatory" world, a kid with mediocre scores might spend extra time/money on prep courses and such to grab a marginal improvement. In a "scores are optional" world, that same kid with mediocre scores might not bother and instead just not submit their scores.

 

[Max Power]

All the talk of ACT/SATs... Is there a working theory as to why those test scores have been falling? ACTs are at their lowest scores in 30 years. I assume its mostly due to learning loss from Covid, but ACTs starting trending down in 2017-2018. Now that we're seeing the scores fall, what is the plan to fix them? In efforts to not penalize kids for covid years, we've pushed them through the system without the pre-requisite skills for their current grade and the result seems to be slowing down the class overall or oversimplifying the materials.

I believe it’s especially the reading scores that have dropped significantly and it’s pretty easy to see why imo. Kids don’t read as much as they used to.

I've heard the literacy rates are dropping and hearing from one of our teaching friends that is a very challenging issue to overcome. Portions of curriculum rely on students reading and comprehending what they read. When they can't do it at the grade level expected of them, it derails the learning process. Now extra classroom time is being spent on the students who almost lack the skills to even be in that class. Overall, this is not a sustainable method.

 

[Ilov80s]

All the talk of ACT/SATs... Is there a working theory as to why those test scores have been falling? ACTs are at their lowest scores in 30 years. I assume its mostly due to learning loss from Covid, but ACTs starting trending down in 2017-2018. Now that we're seeing the scores fall, what is the plan to fix them? In efforts to not penalize kids for covid years, we've pushed them through the system without the pre-requisite skills for their current grade and the result seems to be slowing down the class overall or oversimplifying the materials.

I believe it’s especially the reading scores that have dropped significantly and it’s pretty easy to see why imo. Kids don’t read as much as they used to.

I've heard the literacy rates are dropping and hearing from one of our teaching friends that is a very challenging issue to overcome. Portions of curriculum rely on students reading and comprehending what they read. When they can't do it at the grade level expected of them, it derails the learning process. Now extra classroom time is being spent on the students who almost lack the skills to even be in that class. Overall, this is not a sustainable method.

Yeah reading is obviously just about the most important academic skill. Kids just don’t read like they used to. YouTube, games on phones, etc are all likely culprits and especially getting them way too young. Not much schools can do about it other than I suppose educate parents and hope they make better decisions moving forward.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Are you saying they don't teach towards tests or just the ACT? I have taught or been an administrator in 5 different schools over my career that have varied in diversity and wealth from the top to the bottom and they all taught to score well on the MSTEP. This is Michigan's statewide tes

I am saying "teaching to the test" is basically a big fat myth. A dumb talking point. A boogeyman.

People that use that phrase to talk about what is wrong with testing arent saying "omg schools spent 10 hours preparing students for the procedures and format involved with the single biggest test that they take most years"

They use that phrase as if the kids will spend the whole year not actually really learning subject material, but mysteriously working on said test which will allow them to mysteriously spit out correct answers and remain empty vessels.

The reality is tests measure knowledge. If teachers are well aware that certain things will show up on tests and make sure that the kids know those things, that is highly likely to be because those things are important. That's not a cheat code. That isnt gaming the system. That is actually the system working.

It isnt like the test comes out and each year question number 1 is answered with b and 2 is c and 3 is b again and boom, 3 correct answer head start because we taught the test.

Of course schools should get kids familiar with the timing of a test, the format, when to guess, when to punt, etc. Thats what i said earlier and I stand by these being good things to learn overall. It is like a yearly time and project management mini course.

But we are talking a small fraction of class time here.

Sorry it isn't a myth, I sit in those meetings several times a year where we go over strategies to boost our MSTEP scores.

Can you give a concrete example or two of what this means? I'm strongly inclined to agree with @parasaurolophus but maybe my model of "teaching to the test" is off.

 

[Max Power]

All the talk of ACT/SATs... Is there a working theory as to why those test scores have been falling? ACTs are at their lowest scores in 30 years. I assume its mostly due to learning loss from Covid, but ACTs starting trending down in 2017-2018. Now that we're seeing the scores fall, what is the plan to fix them? In efforts to not penalize kids for covid years, we've pushed them through the system without the pre-requisite skills for their current grade and the result seems to be slowing down the class overall or oversimplifying the materials.

Doesn't explain the entire trend, but there just has to be a correlation/causation from "colleges don't require you to submit scores" to "scores get lower". In a "scores are mandatory" world, a kid with mediocre scores might spend extra time/money on prep courses and such to grab a marginal improvement. In a "scores are optional" world, that same kid with mediocre scores might not bother and instead just not submit their scores.

I see some colleges (~20%) are going to reinstate ACT/SAT scores as part of the application process. I think it might be needed as a result of grade inflation. If all applicants are straight A students, how is a college supposed to distinguish who they want...

 

[Max Power]

All the talk of ACT/SATs... Is there a working theory as to why those test scores have been falling? ACTs are at their lowest scores in 30 years. I assume its mostly due to learning loss from Covid, but ACTs starting trending down in 2017-2018. Now that we're seeing the scores fall, what is the plan to fix them? In efforts to not penalize kids for covid years, we've pushed them through the system without the pre-requisite skills for their current grade and the result seems to be slowing down the class overall or oversimplifying the materials.

I believe it’s especially the reading scores that have dropped significantly and it’s pretty easy to see why imo. Kids don’t read as much as they used to.

I've heard the literacy rates are dropping and hearing from one of our teaching friends that is a very challenging issue to overcome. Portions of curriculum rely on students reading and comprehending what they read. When they can't do it at the grade level expected of them, it derails the learning process. Now extra classroom time is being spent on the students who almost lack the skills to even be in that class. Overall, this is not a sustainable method.

Yeah reading is obviously just about the most important academic skill. Kids just don’t read like they used to. YouTube, games on phones, etc are all likely culprits and especially getting them way too young. Not much schools can do about it other than I suppose educate parents and hope they make better decisions moving forward.

That's a pretty heavy lift as well. I don't think schools should be viewed as a magic wand that takes all kids from 0 to 100, but unfortunately there are parents who believe that. My concern is if schools start catering heavily to the students falling behind or families who don't prioritize learning, its going to be a net negative to the average or above average students.

 

[djmich]

All the talk of ACT/SATs... Is there a working theory as to why those test scores have been falling? ACTs are at their lowest scores in 30 years. I assume its mostly due to learning loss from Covid, but ACTs starting trending down in 2017-2018. Now that we're seeing the scores fall, what is the plan to fix them? In efforts to not penalize kids for covid years, we've pushed them through the system without the pre-requisite skills for their current grade and the result seems to be slowing down the class overall or oversimplifying the materials.

Doesn't explain the entire trend, but there just has to be a correlation/causation from "colleges don't require you to submit scores" to "scores get lower". In a "scores are mandatory" world, a kid with mediocre scores might spend extra time/money on prep courses and such to grab a marginal improvement. In a "scores are optional" world, that same kid with mediocre scores might not bother and instead just not submit their scores.

I see some colleges (~20%) are going to reinstate ACT/SAT scores as part of the application process. I think it might be needed as a result of grade inflation. If all applicants are straight A students, how is a college supposed to distinguish who they want...

Makes sense, but I think they reinstated the test scores more to better demonstrate compliance with the recent SC non discrimination ruling.

 

[Ilov80s]

All the talk of ACT/SATs... Is there a working theory as to why those test scores have been falling? ACTs are at their lowest scores in 30 years. I assume its mostly due to learning loss from Covid, but ACTs starting trending down in 2017-2018. Now that we're seeing the scores fall, what is the plan to fix them? In efforts to not penalize kids for covid years, we've pushed them through the system without the pre-requisite skills for their current grade and the result seems to be slowing down the class overall or oversimplifying the materials.

I believe it’s especially the reading scores that have dropped significantly and it’s pretty easy to see why imo. Kids don’t read as much as they used to.

I've heard the literacy rates are dropping and hearing from one of our teaching friends that is a very challenging issue to overcome. Portions of curriculum rely on students reading and comprehending what they read. When they can't do it at the grade level expected of them, it derails the learning process. Now extra classroom time is being spent on the students who almost lack the skills to even be in that class. Overall, this is not a sustainable method.

Yeah reading is obviously just about the most important academic skill. Kids just don’t read like they used to. YouTube, games on phones, etc are all likely culprits and especially getting them way too young. Not much schools can do about it other than I suppose educate parents and hope they make better decisions moving forward.

That's a pretty heavy lift as well. I don't think schools should be viewed as a magic wand that takes all kids from 0 to 100, but unfortunately there are parents who believe that. My concern is if schools start catering heavily to the students falling behind or families who don't prioritize learning, its going to be a net negative to the average or above average students.

I can't really comment there, I have no idea what goes on in grades k-8.

 

[parasaurolophus]

My concern is if schools start catering heavily to the students falling behind or families who don't prioritize learning, its going to be a net negative to the average or above average students.

We are already way past this.

 

[beer 30]

My concern is if schools start catering heavily to the students falling behind or families who don't prioritize learning, its going to be a net negative to the average or above average students.

We are already way past this.

It's 3rd grade so take with whatever grain of spice you chose but my daughters had to put kids through that absolutely weren't prepared for the next step up. Particularly the COVID kids generation from the last 3 years. I suspect there has always been a few pass throughs in every class but when the entire class is noticeably behind expectation, it doesn't bode well for their future academic progress.

 

[Chris B.]

I'm a consultant for CA public schools and the trend I'm seeing in the past few years is that educators are leaving the profession and there aren't enough qualified people to fill the void. The stress is at an all time high partially due to the years lost to COVID. Special Ed teachers are almost impossible to replace in some areas. Unless there's more money to entice more people to return to teaching, the problem isn't going to improve. Non-classroom based education is an alternative but not necessarily a better alternative.

 

[Ilov80s]

My concern is if schools start catering heavily to the students falling behind or families who don't prioritize learning, its going to be a net negative to the average or above average students.

We are already way past this.

The problem I see at HS is most of the kids are behind so it's just catering to the mean. Thouhg there are honors programs, AP classes, etc. for those who are bright and want to be pushed.

 

[dnurk]

Edit: Last last note: Any attempt to blame children for the any form of societal problem will bring my rage. They didn't create the world they live in. You did. Kids aren't worse today in any way. They're reacting to the world you handed them. Kids these days? Seriously? If I hear anyone utter the phrase "kids these days" I lose my mind and go off. Don't go there. It's the largest trigger I got. I will fong you.

Getting ready to start year 32 teaching math in a smaller high school in Washington state. A few things I think...

1. I love my job.
2. Would do it for less money. My salary went up significantly over the past five years.
3. Students in my district have wildly diverse opportunities. Both academic and occupational.
4. Lots of great parents. Some terrible ones. Either way, I put in a big effort to remind myself that kids don't get to pick their parents.
5. I don't close the door on a kids opportunity, ever. There's always a way forward.
6. Admin have a horrible job. They've been handcuffed by policy, laws, and fear of parents.
7. The schools in my county are all great. Very similar. Way better than what I remember as a kid in the 80s.
8. Cell phones are problem for kids. Highly recommend the book "The Anxious Generation". We're going to see more and more schools outright ban smart phones.
9. Education funding varies wildly from state to state. It can have a big impact on failing, surviving, or thriving.

Last note: I just spend two years teaching in a wealthy private international school in China. Wealthy asian parents are the bomb. They work hard making sure their kids work hard. Really going to miss the asian parents.

Edit: Last last note: Any attempt to blame children for the any form of societal problem will bring my rage. They didn't create the world they live in. You did. Kids aren't worse today in any way. They're reacting to the world you handed them. Kids these days? Seriously? If I hear anyone utter the phrase "kids these days" I lose my mind and go off. Don't go there. It's the largest trigger I got. I will fong you.

Thanks for the insights and sharing. And thanks for being a teacher as the world needs more like you.

Please drop the "fong you" shtick (kick/whip?) though as that doesn't help real discussion.

I do think the personal responsibility part is and can be an interesting discussion. Context matters a lot and that usually gets dismissed in discussions. Obviously a high school senior had more expected responsibility than a 1st grader. How that plays out is super interesting I think.

Also completely with you on the cell phones. We've talked a good bit about Jonathan Haidt and social media for kids. Would love to hear more from you there as you're on the front lines with is https://forums.footballguys.com/thr...llowing-social-media-for-young-people.812226/

I wish Cell phones were banned from the classroom, but I just don't see it happening. My wife used to substitute and had issues with kids playing on their phones during class. She'd echo what many others have already said about "some parents" vs school administration. There are some parents who are 100% committed to their child having their phone on them and turned on at all times. Its a non-negotiable for various reasons. They become the loudest voice in the room and schools tend to cave to it. Once they cave to one parent, they cave to them all.

Phones in the classroom is a very difficult policy to navigate from my outsider point of view. I'd support some form of a cubby system off to the side or even a teacher taking a phone from a student when it becomes a disruption. Admittedly taking a phone away has the potential to escalate. I'm in favor of that, but also like I said in the OP, when the principle of my daughter's middle school went through her phone without a parent involved... That was 200% over the line in my book.

Indiana passed a law this Spring basically banning them during class. Very popular with parents. Kids not so much https://www.chalkbeat.org/indiana/2024/03/12/cell-phones-in-school-banned-for-students/

My son is a HS senior and is 1 1/2 weeks into the semester with the no phone use during class policy at his HS. Kids getting used to it and teachers all commenting on what a remarkable difference it is making. Kids actually talking to each other and discussing things, kids not rushing through assignments or quizzes just to to their phones. One teacher said it's been an absolute revelation in the whole mood of the classroom. Hoping more states have the courage to do this.

 

[Ilov80s]

Edit: Last last note: Any attempt to blame children for the any form of societal problem will bring my rage. They didn't create the world they live in. You did. Kids aren't worse today in any way. They're reacting to the world you handed them. Kids these days? Seriously? If I hear anyone utter the phrase "kids these days" I lose my mind and go off. Don't go there. It's the largest trigger I got. I will fong you.

Getting ready to start year 32 teaching math in a smaller high school in Washington state. A few things I think...

1. I love my job.
2. Would do it for less money. My salary went up significantly over the past five years.
3. Students in my district have wildly diverse opportunities. Both academic and occupational.
4. Lots of great parents. Some terrible ones. Either way, I put in a big effort to remind myself that kids don't get to pick their parents.
5. I don't close the door on a kids opportunity, ever. There's always a way forward.
6. Admin have a horrible job. They've been handcuffed by policy, laws, and fear of parents.
7. The schools in my county are all great. Very similar. Way better than what I remember as a kid in the 80s.
8. Cell phones are problem for kids. Highly recommend the book "The Anxious Generation". We're going to see more and more schools outright ban smart phones.
9. Education funding varies wildly from state to state. It can have a big impact on failing, surviving, or thriving.

Last note: I just spend two years teaching in a wealthy private international school in China. Wealthy asian parents are the bomb. They work hard making sure their kids work hard. Really going to miss the asian parents.

Edit: Last last note: Any attempt to blame children for the any form of societal problem will bring my rage. They didn't create the world they live in. You did. Kids aren't worse today in any way. They're reacting to the world you handed them. Kids these days? Seriously? If I hear anyone utter the phrase "kids these days" I lose my mind and go off. Don't go there. It's the largest trigger I got. I will fong you.

Thanks for the insights and sharing. And thanks for being a teacher as the world needs more like you.

Please drop the "fong you" shtick (kick/whip?) though as that doesn't help real discussion.

I do think the personal responsibility part is and can be an interesting discussion. Context matters a lot and that usually gets dismissed in discussions. Obviously a high school senior had more expected responsibility than a 1st grader. How that plays out is super interesting I think.

Also completely with you on the cell phones. We've talked a good bit about Jonathan Haidt and social media for kids. Would love to hear more from you there as you're on the front lines with is https://forums.footballguys.com/thr...llowing-social-media-for-young-people.812226/

I wish Cell phones were banned from the classroom, but I just don't see it happening. My wife used to substitute and had issues with kids playing on their phones during class. She'd echo what many others have already said about "some parents" vs school administration. There are some parents who are 100% committed to their child having their phone on them and turned on at all times. Its a non-negotiable for various reasons. They become the loudest voice in the room and schools tend to cave to it. Once they cave to one parent, they cave to them all.

Phones in the classroom is a very difficult policy to navigate from my outsider point of view. I'd support some form of a cubby system off to the side or even a teacher taking a phone from a student when it becomes a disruption. Admittedly taking a phone away has the potential to escalate. I'm in favor of that, but also like I said in the OP, when the principle of my daughter's middle school went through her phone without a parent involved... That was 200% over the line in my book.

Indiana passed a law this Spring basically banning them during class. Very popular with parents. Kids not so much https://www.chalkbeat.org/indiana/2024/03/12/cell-phones-in-school-banned-for-students/

My son is a HS senior and is 1 1/2 weeks into the semester with the no phone use during class policy at his HS. Kids getting used to it and teachers all commenting on what a remarkable difference it is making. Kids actually talking to each other and discussing things, kids not rushing through assignments or quizzes just to to their phones. One teacher said it's been an absolute revelation in the whole mood of the classroom. Hoping more states have the courage to do this.

School I worked at went with such a policy and it made a huge difference but I wpould just say let us know how it's going in 4 months. It was difficult to enforce as the year went on. Many teachers gave up, many kids became confrontational about it and the number of requests to use the bathroom spiked like 500%, It's a good rule but you do need teachers will to enforce it and admin willing to back it up all the way. The start fot the year is always the easiest, the honeymoon period.

 

[Chaz McNulty]

Are you saying they don't teach towards tests or just the ACT? I have taught or been an administrator in 5 different schools over my career that have varied in diversity and wealth from the top to the bottom and they all taught to score well on the MSTEP. This is Michigan's statewide tes

I am saying "teaching to the test" is basically a big fat myth. A dumb talking point. A boogeyman.

People that use that phrase to talk about what is wrong with testing arent saying "omg schools spent 10 hours preparing students for the procedures and format involved with the single biggest test that they take most years"

They use that phrase as if the kids will spend the whole year not actually really learning subject material, but mysteriously working on said test which will allow them to mysteriously spit out correct answers and remain empty vessels.

The reality is tests measure knowledge. If teachers are well aware that certain things will show up on tests and make sure that the kids know those things, that is highly likely to be because those things are important. That's not a cheat code. That isnt gaming the system. That is actually the system working.

It isnt like the test comes out and each year question number 1 is answered with b and 2 is c and 3 is b again and boom, 3 correct answer head start because we taught the test.

Of course schools should get kids familiar with the timing of a test, the format, when to guess, when to punt, etc. Thats what i said earlier and I stand by these being good things to learn overall. It is like a yearly time and project management mini course.

But we are talking a small fraction of class time here.

Sorry it isn't a myth, I sit in those meetings several times a year where we go over strategies to boost our MSTEP scores.

If all the strategies benefit the student in getting a higher score and learning, then isn't this a good thing?

 

[bigbottom]

Are you saying they don't teach towards tests or just the ACT? I have taught or been an administrator in 5 different schools over my career that have varied in diversity and wealth from the top to the bottom and they all taught to score well on the MSTEP. This is Michigan's statewide tes

I am saying "teaching to the test" is basically a big fat myth. A dumb talking point. A boogeyman.

People that use that phrase to talk about what is wrong with testing arent saying "omg schools spent 10 hours preparing students for the procedures and format involved with the single biggest test that they take most years"

They use that phrase as if the kids will spend the whole year not actually really learning subject material, but mysteriously working on said test which will allow them to mysteriously spit out correct answers and remain empty vessels.

The reality is tests measure knowledge. If teachers are well aware that certain things will show up on tests and make sure that the kids know those things, that is highly likely to be because those things are important. That's not a cheat code. That isnt gaming the system. That is actually the system working.

It isnt like the test comes out and each year question number 1 is answered with b and 2 is c and 3 is b again and boom, 3 correct answer head start because we taught the test.

Of course schools should get kids familiar with the timing of a test, the format, when to guess, when to punt, etc. Thats what i said earlier and I stand by these being good things to learn overall. It is like a yearly time and project management mini course.

But we are talking a small fraction of class time here.

Sorry it isn't a myth, I sit in those meetings several times a year where we go over strategies to boost our MSTEP scores.

If I understand what para is saying, the myth isn’t that school’s care about test scores, because they obviously do and want to improve them. The myth is that focusing on tests and improved scores means that substantive learning isn’t happening or is materially reduced.

 

[msudaisy26]

Are you saying they don't teach towards tests or just the ACT? I have taught or been an administrator in 5 different schools over my career that have varied in diversity and wealth from the top to the bottom and they all taught to score well on the MSTEP. This is Michigan's statewide tes

I am saying "teaching to the test" is basically a big fat myth. A dumb talking point. A boogeyman.

People that use that phrase to talk about what is wrong with testing arent saying "omg schools spent 10 hours preparing students for the procedures and format involved with the single biggest test that they take most years"

They use that phrase as if the kids will spend the whole year not actually really learning subject material, but mysteriously working on said test which will allow them to mysteriously spit out correct answers and remain empty vessels.

The reality is tests measure knowledge. If teachers are well aware that certain things will show up on tests and make sure that the kids know those things, that is highly likely to be because those things are important. That's not a cheat code. That isnt gaming the system. That is actually the system working.

It isnt like the test comes out and each year question number 1 is answered with b and 2 is c and 3 is b again and boom, 3 correct answer head start because we taught the test.

Of course schools should get kids familiar with the timing of a test, the format, when to guess, when to punt, etc. Thats what i said earlier and I stand by these being good things to learn overall. It is like a yearly time and project management mini course.

But we are talking a small fraction of class time here.

Sorry it isn't a myth, I sit in those meetings several times a year where we go over strategies to boost our MSTEP scores.

If all the strategies benefit the student in getting a higher score and learning, then isn't this a good thing?

A little yes and mostly no. A better score is great, but studying/teaching to achieve higher scores doesn't help master the actual skills that you are trying to teach. It doesn't help or measure creativity. Studies show that teaching to the test hinders information retention.

@IvanKaramazov I seen your post and will get to it, but that is a longer answer.

 

[parasaurolophus]

A little yes and mostly no. A better score is great, but studying/teaching to achieve higher scores doesn't help master the actual skills that you are trying to teach. It doesn't help or measure creativity. Studies show that teaching to the test hinders information retention.

@IvanKaramazov I seen your post and will get to it, but that is a longer answer.

Test prep courses for SAT/ACT almost always involve taking multiple practice exams because repeated testing helps improve long term memory retention...taking a memory test not only assesses what one knows, but also enhances later retention.”

I would be interested to read studies that show this not to be the case.

Eta: I realize elementary schools dont follow act/sat prep classes, but until "teaching to the test" gets a different long term curriculum definition ir explanation it seems its the best reference available to all of us.

 

[msudaisy26]

Are you saying they don't teach towards tests or just the ACT? I have taught or been an administrator in 5 different schools over my career that have varied in diversity and wealth from the top to the bottom and they all taught to score well on the MSTEP. This is Michigan's statewide tes

I am saying "teaching to the test" is basically a big fat myth. A dumb talking point. A boogeyman.

People that use that phrase to talk about what is wrong with testing arent saying "omg schools spent 10 hours preparing students for the procedures and format involved with the single biggest test that they take most years"

They use that phrase as if the kids will spend the whole year not actually really learning subject material, but mysteriously working on said test which will allow them to mysteriously spit out correct answers and remain empty vessels.

The reality is tests measure knowledge. If teachers are well aware that certain things will show up on tests and make sure that the kids know those things, that is highly likely to be because those things are important. That's not a cheat code. That isnt gaming the system. That is actually the system working.

It isnt like the test comes out and each year question number 1 is answered with b and 2 is c and 3 is b again and boom, 3 correct answer head start because we taught the test.

Of course schools should get kids familiar with the timing of a test, the format, when to guess, when to punt, etc. Thats what i said earlier and I stand by these being good things to learn overall. It is like a yearly time and project management mini course.

But we are talking a small fraction of class time here.

Sorry it isn't a myth, I sit in those meetings several times a year where we go over strategies to boost our MSTEP scores.

If all the strategies benefit the student in getting a higher score and learning, then isn't this a good thing?

A little yes and mostly no. A better score is great, but studying/teaching to achieve higher scores doesn't help master the actual skills that you are trying to teach. It doesn't help or measure creativity. Studies show that teaching to the test hinders information retention.

@IvanKaramazov I seen your post and will get to it, but that is a longer answer.

So this is in Michigan and my experiences as a middle school math teacher, a third, fourth, and fifth grade teacher, an assistant principal at the elementary and middle school and now a middle school principal. Your state or grade level may vary.

So every year starting in third grade until eighth grade kids take the MSTEP. Every year they take the ELA (English) and math portions of the test. Starting in fifth grade they take the social studies and science portions every third year. Starting in January every year teachers are prepping their students to get the highest score possible. I have watched them do over all the various positions I have held and at the various different schools districts I have worked. We all do it.

The next question is why? In short because the state mandates us. Want more funding so your school can hire AP certified teachers to have AP classes, then better hit proficiency numbers the state sets, want to be part of the IB program and get funding for it? Same thing. Want to be a blue ribbon school and get more funding, rinse in repeat.

The huge percentage of teacher raises and merit is based on their kids state test scores. They are all teaching to score on that test. Every year we get preliminary results in June incoming sixth, seventh and eighth graders and the rest of the summer is spent trying to improve the curriculum to help those scores go up the next year. So if the fifth graders did poorly on the math portion and well on ELA then the sixth grade curriculum is going to be heavily skewed to math.

I have been in economically challenged districts that test very poorly and districts that do well on the test and aren't challenged and they all are prepping for that test and teaching students to do well on the test.

In the economically challenged areas we have had raffles and given away prizes just to get the kids to show up for the test because a poor score is better than no score.

 

[bigbottom]

Are you saying they don't teach towards tests or just the ACT? I have taught or been an administrator in 5 different schools over my career that have varied in diversity and wealth from the top to the bottom and they all taught to score well on the MSTEP. This is Michigan's statewide tes

I am saying "teaching to the test" is basically a big fat myth. A dumb talking point. A boogeyman.

People that use that phrase to talk about what is wrong with testing arent saying "omg schools spent 10 hours preparing students for the procedures and format involved with the single biggest test that they take most years"

They use that phrase as if the kids will spend the whole year not actually really learning subject material, but mysteriously working on said test which will allow them to mysteriously spit out correct answers and remain empty vessels.

The reality is tests measure knowledge. If teachers are well aware that certain things will show up on tests and make sure that the kids know those things, that is highly likely to be because those things are important. That's not a cheat code. That isnt gaming the system. That is actually the system working.

It isnt like the test comes out and each year question number 1 is answered with b and 2 is c and 3 is b again and boom, 3 correct answer head start because we taught the test.

Of course schools should get kids familiar with the timing of a test, the format, when to guess, when to punt, etc. Thats what i said earlier and I stand by these being good things to learn overall. It is like a yearly time and project management mini course.

But we are talking a small fraction of class time here.

Sorry it isn't a myth, I sit in those meetings several times a year where we go over strategies to boost our MSTEP scores.

If all the strategies benefit the student in getting a higher score and learning, then isn't this a good thing?

A little yes and mostly no. A better score is great, but studying/teaching to achieve higher scores doesn't help master the actual skills that you are trying to teach. It doesn't help or measure creativity. Studies show that teaching to the test hinders information retention.

@IvanKaramazov I seen your post and will get to it, but that is a longer answer.

So this is in Michigan and my experiences as a middle school math teacher, a third, fourth, and fifth grade teacher, an assistant principal at the elementary and middle school and now a middle school principal. Your state or grade level may vary.

So every year starting in third grade until eighth grade kids take the MSTEP. Every year they take the ELA (English) and math portions of the test. Starting in fifth grade they take the social studies and science portions every third year. Starting in January every year teachers are prepping their students to get the highest score possible. I have watched them do over all the various positions I have held and at the various different schools districts I have worked. We all do it.

The next question is why? In short because the state mandates us. Want more funding so your school can hire AP certified teachers to have AP classes, then better hit proficiency numbers the state sets, want to be part of the IB program and get funding for it? Same thing. Want to be a blue ribbon school and get more funding, rinse in repeat.

The huge percentage of teacher raises and merit is based on their kids state test scores. They are all teaching to score on that test. Every year we get preliminary results in June incoming sixth, seventh and eighth graders and the rest of the summer is spent trying to improve the curriculum to help those scores go up the next year. So if the fifth graders did poorly on the math portion and well on ELA then the sixth grade curriculum is going to be heavily skewed to math.

I have been in economically challenged districts that test very poorly and districts that do well on the test and aren't challenged and they all are prepping for that test and teaching students to do well on the test.

In the economically challenged areas we have had raffles and given away prizes just to get the kids to show up for the test because a poor score is better than no score.

I know this may sound stupid/naive, but if you are teaching students to score well on a math test, aren’t you teaching them math?

 

[snellman]

This is from my hometown and currently where I work (not where my last child goes to school). Not sure how much truth there is to this, but if it is, it is nuts. I am not an expert, nor do I have an iron in the fire, but I would think recess would be important for the overall learning, especially for elementary students.

I think it's crazy how the local schools are taking away the afternoon recess in the elementary schools. Plus they have a decibel reader in the lunch room, so if the kids get too loud they get more recess time taken away. I think it's about time more parents start paying more attention to how they're running these schools maybe we should start voting for and having term limits for principals. Because the ones we have now aren't doing these kids any good!

 

[msudaisy26]

Are you saying they don't teach towards tests or just the ACT? I have taught or been an administrator in 5 different schools over my career that have varied in diversity and wealth from the top to the bottom and they all taught to score well on the MSTEP. This is Michigan's statewide tes

I am saying "teaching to the test" is basically a big fat myth. A dumb talking point. A boogeyman.

People that use that phrase to talk about what is wrong with testing arent saying "omg schools spent 10 hours preparing students for the procedures and format involved with the single biggest test that they take most years"

They use that phrase as if the kids will spend the whole year not actually really learning subject material, but mysteriously working on said test which will allow them to mysteriously spit out correct answers and remain empty vessels.

The reality is tests measure knowledge. If teachers are well aware that certain things will show up on tests and make sure that the kids know those things, that is highly likely to be because those things are important. That's not a cheat code. That isnt gaming the system. That is actually the system working.

It isnt like the test comes out and each year question number 1 is answered with b and 2 is c and 3 is b again and boom, 3 correct answer head start because we taught the test.

Of course schools should get kids familiar with the timing of a test, the format, when to guess, when to punt, etc. Thats what i said earlier and I stand by these being good things to learn overall. It is like a yearly time and project management mini course.

But we are talking a small fraction of class time here.

Sorry it isn't a myth, I sit in those meetings several times a year where we go over strategies to boost our MSTEP scores.

If all the strategies benefit the student in getting a higher score and learning, then isn't this a good thing?

A little yes and mostly no. A better score is great, but studying/teaching to achieve higher scores doesn't help master the actual skills that you are trying to teach. It doesn't help or measure creativity. Studies show that teaching to the test hinders information retention.

@IvanKaramazov I seen your post and will get to it, but that is a longer answer.

So this is in Michigan and my experiences as a middle school math teacher, a third, fourth, and fifth grade teacher, an assistant principal at the elementary and middle school and now a middle school principal. Your state or grade level may vary.

So every year starting in third grade until eighth grade kids take the MSTEP. Every year they take the ELA (English) and math portions of the test. Starting in fifth grade they take the social studies and science portions every third year. Starting in January every year teachers are prepping their students to get the highest score possible. I have watched them do over all the various positions I have held and at the various different schools districts I have worked. We all do it.

The next question is why? In short because the state mandates us. Want more funding so your school can hire AP certified teachers to have AP classes, then better hit proficiency numbers the state sets, want to be part of the IB program and get funding for it? Same thing. Want to be a blue ribbon school and get more funding, rinse in repeat.

The huge percentage of teacher raises and merit is based on their kids state test scores. They are all teaching to score on that test. Every year we get preliminary results in June incoming sixth, seventh and eighth graders and the rest of the summer is spent trying to improve the curriculum to help those scores go up the next year. So if the fifth graders did poorly on the math portion and well on ELA then the sixth grade curriculum is going to be heavily skewed to math.

I have been in economically challenged districts that test very poorly and districts that do well on the test and aren't challenged and they all are prepping for that test and teaching students to do well on the test.

In the economically challenged areas we have had raffles and given away prizes just to get the kids to show up for the test because a poor score is better than no score.

I know this may sound stupid/naive, but if you are teaching students to score well on a math test, aren’t you teaching them math?

Yes and no. The problem is in January we start prepping for the tests. Even if we have already covered that part of the lesson we are going back over it to refresh them and that cuts into the time we have for the current lesson, or we will fast track lessons to try to cover everything on a test.

My best example would be the science portion of the MSTEP. There is earth, life and physical science in middle school. One per year. In eighth grade students take the science portion of the MSTEP. In my school the order goes life in sixth grade, physical in seventh grade and earth in eighth grade. So instead of a whole year of earth science in eighth grade they get half a year and the second semester is refreshing the other two because so much is forgotten since sixth and seventh grade and since it is impossible to cram three years of lessons into eightish weeks we are forced to teach to the test and what will produce the best test results so we can try to hit state mandated goals to try to get more funding to get those extra programs to become a better school that has more money to better educate.

Of course there is overlap and we are teaching math and science etc, but not in a good way that will last. We are teaching for a score.

 

[3C's]

Harnett Co.

Almost came down there the other day...

 

[Max Power]

Harnett Co.

Almost came down there the other day...

Lol, for what? Harnett doesn't have a lot to offer. Not bashing it though. The quiet setting is what I enjoy.

 

[parasaurolophus]

So instead of a whole year of earth science in eighth grade they get half a year and the second semester is refreshing the other two because so much is forgotten since sixth and seventh grade and since it is impossible to cram three years of lessons into eightish weeks we are forced to teach to the test and what will produce the best test results so we can try to hit state mandated goals to try to get more funding to get those extra programs to become a better school that has more money to better educate.

Of course there is overlap and we are teaching math and science etc, but not in a good way that will last. We are teaching for a score.

So if I am understanding this correctly, the biggest problem in MI is that kids get robbed of half a year of earth science. The reason for this is because the test is based on three years of learning and the kids have forgotten the first two years.

And the teaching to the test that happens in the second half of the earth science year is bad because the kids wont remember it.

 

[3C's]

Harnett Co.

Almost came down there the other day...

Lol, for what? Harnett doesn't have a lot to offer. Not bashing it though. The quiet setting is what I enjoy.

Daughter lives in the area, army wife. There was a "situation". I'll give more details elsewhere. You're right though, not much there. Have to go to Sanford for almost anything.

 

[djmich]

L

So instead of a whole year of earth science in eighth grade they get half a year and the second semester is refreshing the other two because so much is forgotten since sixth and seventh grade and since it is impossible to cram three years of lessons into eightish weeks we are forced to teach to the test and what will produce the best test results so we can try to hit state mandated goals to try to get more funding to get those extra programs to become a better school that has more money to better educate.

Of course there is overlap and we are teaching math and science etc, but not in a good way that will last. We are teaching for a score.

So if I am understanding this correctly, the biggest problem in MI is that kids get robbed of half a year of earth science. The reason for this is because the test is based on three years of learning and the kids have forgotten the first two years.

And the teaching to the test that happens in the second half of the earth science year is bad because the kids wont remember it.

So the question really becomes is time more valuably spent refreshing on two years of work to re-orient on it and possibly remember it better over the long term or to learn a few more months of new earth science content that it seems like you’re gonna forget in two years anyway.

 

[msudaisy26]

So instead of a whole year of earth science in eighth grade they get half a year and the second semester is refreshing the other two because so much is forgotten since sixth and seventh grade and since it is impossible to cram three years of lessons into eightish weeks we are forced to teach to the test and what will produce the best test results so we can try to hit state mandated goals to try to get more funding to get those extra programs to become a better school that has more money to better educate.

Of course there is overlap and we are teaching math and science etc, but not in a good way that will last. We are teaching for a score.

So if I am understanding this correctly, the biggest problem in MI is that kids get robbed of half a year of earth science. The reason for this is because the test is based on three years of learning and the kids have forgotten the first two years.

And the teaching to the test that happens in the second half of the earth science year is bad because the kids wont remember it.

Yes, that is exactly it and the only example. Thanks for showing me the error of my ways in my profession. I will be better.

 

[parasaurolophus]

So instead of a whole year of earth science in eighth grade they get half a year and the second semester is refreshing the other two because so much is forgotten since sixth and seventh grade and since it is impossible to cram three years of lessons into eightish weeks we are forced to teach to the test and what will produce the best test results so we can try to hit state mandated goals to try to get more funding to get those extra programs to become a better school that has more money to better educate.

Of course there is overlap and we are teaching math and science etc, but not in a good way that will last. We are teaching for a score.

So if I am understanding this correctly, the biggest problem in MI is that kids get robbed of half a year of earth science. The reason for this is because the test is based on three years of learning and the kids have forgotten the first two years.

And the teaching to the test that happens in the second half of the earth science year is bad because the kids wont remember it.

Yes, that is exactly it and the only example. Thanks for showing me the error of my ways in my profession. I will be better.

You have been given multiple chances to give specific examples of what you are talking about. Instead you mostly keep repeating catch phrases.

You repeatedly dropped your credentials and even gave us a "studies show" without mentioning a single study.

The "best example" you gave was that teaching to the test meant that you have to review 2.5 years of material because the kids forget it and you dont get to teach a half year of other material (obvious assumption is they will forget that too).

I mean, you might have convinced more people in this thread that "teaching to the test" is just a boogeyman than I have.

 

[Jayrod]

So instead of a whole year of earth science in eighth grade they get half a year and the second semester is refreshing the other two because so much is forgotten since sixth and seventh grade and since it is impossible to cram three years of lessons into eightish weeks we are forced to teach to the test and what will produce the best test results so we can try to hit state mandated goals to try to get more funding to get those extra programs to become a better school that has more money to better educate.

Of course there is overlap and we are teaching math and science etc, but not in a good way that will last. We are teaching for a score.

So if I am understanding this correctly, the biggest problem in MI is that kids get robbed of half a year of earth science. The reason for this is because the test is based on three years of learning and the kids have forgotten the first two years.

And the teaching to the test that happens in the second half of the earth science year is bad because the kids wont remember it.

Yes, that is exactly it and the only example. Thanks for showing me the error of my ways in my profession. I will be better.

You have been given multiple chances to give specific examples of what you are talking about. Instead you mostly keep repeating catch phrases.

You repeatedly dropped your credentials and even gave us a "studies show" without mentioning a single study.

The "best example" you gave was that teaching to the test meant that you have to review 2.5 years of material because the kids forget it and you dont get to teach a half year of other material (obvious assumption is they will forget that too).

I mean, you might have convinced more people in this thread that "teaching to the test" is just a boogeyman than I have.

She is an expert in the field and you are just being a critic.

The answers given are more than adequate you are just being argumentative.

Probably because your teachers spent too much time prepping you for tests and not enough time teaching you critical thinking and interpersonal skills.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Probably because your teachers spent too much time prepping you for tests and not enough time teaching you critical thinking and interpersonal skills.

Setting aside the specifics of this particular argument, the guy you're responding to actively evaluated the evidence and argumentation being presented to him and explained cogently why he landed at a different conclusion. That's what critical thinking is. You seem to be asking him to blindly defer to somebody else's authority. That's what critical thinking is not.

He may be wrong. I don't honestly know. He's doing what he's supposed to do, though.

 

[Jayrod]

Probably because your teachers spent too much time prepping you for tests and not enough time teaching you critical thinking and interpersonal skills.

Setting aside the specifics of this particular argument, the guy you're responding to actively evaluated the evidence and argumentation being presented to him and explained cogently why he landed at a different conclusion. That's what critical thinking is. You seem to be asking him to blindly defer to somebody else's authority. That's what critical thinking is not.

He may be wrong. I don't honestly know. He's doing what he's supposed to do, though.

It was a joke I spent 3 seconds thinking up. Sorry if it was factually incorrect.

 

[msudaisy26]

Probably because your teachers spent too much time prepping you for tests and not enough time teaching you critical thinking and interpersonal skills.

Setting aside the specifics of this particular argument, the guy you're responding to actively evaluated the evidence and argumentation being presented to him and explained cogently why he landed at a different conclusion. That's what critical thinking is. You seem to be asking him to blindly defer to somebody else's authority. That's what critical thinking is not.

He may be wrong. I don't honestly know. He's doing what he's supposed to do, though.

It was a joke I spent 3 seconds thinking up. Sorry if it was factually incorrect.

It is fine. He can disagree all he wants. I have lived it every working day for the better part of two decades now in a lot of different environments.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Probably because your teachers spent too much time prepping you for tests and not enough time teaching you critical thinking and interpersonal skills.

Setting aside the specifics of this particular argument, the guy you're responding to actively evaluated the evidence and argumentation being presented to him and explained cogently why he landed at a different conclusion. That's what critical thinking is. You seem to be asking him to blindly defer to somebody else's authority. That's what critical thinking is not.

He may be wrong. I don't honestly know. He's doing what he's supposed to do, though.

It was a joke I spent 3 seconds thinking up. Sorry if it was factually incorrect.

It is fine. He can disagree all he wants. I have lived it every working day for the better part of two decades now in a lot of different environments.

Almost every educator I know has worked it and lived it.

Here is a good article that talks about teaching kids how to read in NY state. By having them read fewer books. And having them instead read more snippets of text to……wait for it……get them ready to take standardized tests…..

The Schools That Are No Longer Teaching Kids to Read Books

“It didn’t even feel like learning.”

www.theatlantic.com

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Probably because your teachers spent too much time prepping you for tests and not enough time teaching you critical thinking and interpersonal skills.

Setting aside the specifics of this particular argument, the guy you're responding to actively evaluated the evidence and argumentation being presented to him and explained cogently why he landed at a different conclusion. That's what critical thinking is. You seem to be asking him to blindly defer to somebody else's authority. That's what critical thinking is not.

He may be wrong. I don't honestly know. He's doing what he's supposed to do, though.

It was a joke I spent 3 seconds thinking up. Sorry if it was factually incorrect.

It is fine. He can disagree all he wants. I have lived it every working day for the better part of two decades now in a lot of different environments.

Almost every educator I know has worked it and lived it.

Here is a good article that talks about teaching kids how to read in NY state. By having them read fewer books. And having them instead read more snippets of text to……wait for it……get them ready to take standardized tests…..

The Schools That Are No Longer Teaching Kids to Read Books

“It didn’t even feel like learning.”

www.theatlantic.com

That article is an excellent read. There's a little something for everyone in that one.