RB Alvin Kamara, NO (2 Viewers)

[JohnnyU]

The NFL isn’t exactly making themself look good lately. NFL security reportedly knew Kamara was wanted by police before the Pro Bowl but let him play anyway.

Not a great look at all.

Those aren’t real games anyway.  No better than a preseason game, or in the old days when the Super Bowl champion played the college all-stars.  I bet you guys forgot that one.  I remember when the pro bowl meant something and they actually played defense.

 

[habsfan]

Those aren’t real games anyway.  No better than a preseason game, or in the old days when the Super Bowl champion played the college all-stars.  I bet you guys forgot that one.  I remember when the pro bowl meant something and they actually played defense.

But that it isn't a real game isn't the salient point, is it?. The point is, it took the league about a minute to demonstrate why "his career should be over" rarely results in that outcome.

 

[Pipes]

We pretty much all are in agreement that people looking for trouble can get in trouble pretty much anywhere. That being said, a brief search on-line indicates (and I don't swear to the accuracy of these numbers):

# of casinos in each specified city:
- Las Vegas (144)
- Chicago (5)
- New York City (1)
- Atlanta (0)

One of those is not like the others. One site lists 23 strip clubs and 3 swingers clubs in LV. Not counting the bars at casinos, hotels, and resorts, there are another 281 bars and night clubs listed. I've been to all these cities, and in CHI, NY, and ATL, I never felt that there was non-stop action, a vibrant night life, or a swarm of people looking to party. Individual and isolated places? Sure, absolutely. Blocks and blocks of hippies, freaks, and party animals in those 3 places. Not that I've seen. Some people in some sections of the city, sure.

I went to Vegas last year. Anyone out at night without kids was there to mix it up. Certainly, some people more than others. But I couldn't go 15 feet without seeing someone drinking, drugging, gambling, or up for a good time. I was in a casino gambling with my wife, and another married woman who was there with her husband started up a conversation with me. She was in an altered state and casually asked if I wanted to go up to her room with her. She was very graphic about what she wanted me to do with her. It wasn't even 15 feet . . . I wasn't even moving. This was right in front of my wife and her husband. That didn't phase her in the least (and yes, she was very attractive).

There were other times where people asked me if I was interested in buying or selling whatever illegal substance you could think of . . . and again I would be standing there waiting for an elevator or for a streetlight to change. You don't have to look for trouble in Vegas. It will find you all on its own.

As far as professional athletes go, I am sure they know about places in every city to go get their freak on, who the best dealers are (not blackjack), where to find a woman of choice, where the party never stops, etc. But I am guessing in most NFL cities there aren't that many spots. By comparison, Vegas just consumes you. People 16 to 86 would start chatting me up, and they all were like LET'S PARTY!!!! That's what it was like for the peasants and the regular folk. I can only imagine what it is like for the upper crust, the well to do, and patrons of fine lineage. I was out one night at 2:00 AM and a group of 5 or 6 barely legal girls were dressed in nothing but clear plastic material like Saran Wrap with nothing on underneath. They were like, let's go, we're in search of a party, climb aboard.

I stand by my earlier statement. Twenty something year old me with a 7-figure bank account WOULD NOT be back home at 8:00, turning the alarm on, and hitting the weight room at the Raiders facility at the crack of dawn. I would skip the going home and going to bed part, and I might make the noon film review sessions. At least some of them.

You just described the Strip.  A vast majority of Las Vegas isn't the Strip.  Yes they are more temptations in Vegas than any other city but there are tons of temptations in NY, LA, Miami etc that if a player wants to find trouble they can.  The Henry Ruggs situation for example had 0 to do with Vegas.  He was at Top Golf, not a casino and drove drunk.  That can happen anywhere.  Blame the players not the city.  The Vegas Knights seem to get by with no issues.

 

[Anarchy99]

You just described the Strip.  A vast majority of Las Vegas isn't the Strip.  Yes they are more temptations in Vegas than any other city but there are tons of temptations in NY, LA, Miami etc that if a player wants to find trouble they can.  The Henry Ruggs situation for example had 0 to do with Vegas.  He was at Top Golf, not a casino and drove drunk.  That can happen anywhere.  Blame the players not the city.  The Vegas Knights seem to get by with no issues.

We are all saying the same thing. Players can find trouble anywhere, but trouble is more likely to find them in downtown Vegas. There are plenty of nice places to go in LV that don’t cater to the party crowd. All I’m saying is there is a greater chance or likelihood of getting in trouble in Vegas vs. other cities. Maybe that’s a 1-3% chance in other locales and a 8-10% chance in LV. The huge majority of people still won’t get in trouble, but the chance might be triple compared to other places. I have no idea what the actual numbers are, I just guessed. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

We are all saying the same thing. Players can find trouble anywhere, but trouble is more likely to find them in downtown Vegas. There are plenty of nice places to go in LV that don’t cater to the party crowd. All I’m saying is there is a greater chance or likelihood of getting in trouble in Vegas vs. other cities. Maybe that’s a 1-3% chance in other locales and a 8-10% chance in LV. The huge majority of people still won’t get in trouble, but the chance might be triple compared to other places. I have no idea what the actual numbers are, I just guessed. 

maybe it’s an NFL / football issue more than a city issue? 

Rae Caruth conspired to murder his pregnant g/f in North Carolina.

Ray Lewis (allegedly) stabbed two men in Atlanta.

I would post a complete list of NFL players who committed crimes, but I don’t have the week it would take to do so. 

I’m just saying, maybe it’s less the city & more the type of people who play professional football.  As has been suggested, young people who suddenly come into money - many of them with adulation of fans going back to Jr High School. Many have been able to get away with everything their whole lives because of their talent, and future earnings potential.

I’m not saying all NFL players are criminals - not by a country mile. But it’s a violent sport played by young wealthy entitled men, and some of them might not have the best instincts (like Kamara jumping into this fight instead of walking away when the beating started, for one glaring example).

And it could happen anywhere. The Vegas Strip isn’t a huge area. It’s a few large blocks. And yes, there is excess: casinos, bars, etc. the brothels some have referred to are outside of town, not on the strip, so saying prostitution is legal is a misnomer. In NV, yes. In LV? No. Unless something has changed since last I heard at least.

And just about every major city in America has a few blocks of nightlife, bars, even casinos. Plenty of big cities are known for the bustling night life. NYC, NOLA, ATL, SF, etc, etc, etc. This type of thing can happen anywhere.

But we do seem to historically see it quite a bit more with NFL players than other sports, and other walks of life.

I haven’t read too many, “accountant’s convention attendees engage in bar brawl sending 3 to the hospital” stories. Every other year for a decade+ I went to Pack Expo in Vegas, a packaging equipment expo with hoards of pharmacists & food manufacturers. Never saw a fight once.

People need to stop blaming Vegas for the lack of self control of grown men whi do stupid ####. 

 

[menobrown]

Are there truly more people doing this in Vegas than in New Orleans?  Those two cities feel like they are neck and neck for the amount of unhinged partying going on.

These are actually the two main cities I travel to for work meetings, usually hit both up each year and we kind go crazy hard in both places. But personally I don't think it's close between the two and I can't imagine any city in American, or perhaps the world, that offers the constant temptations of Vegas.  Anyone who is arguing that Vegas is like any other city has either not been in Vegas ever or in a long time or you are having a very different Vegas experience, which is possible. Vegas with the wife vs Vegas with the boys is like being in two different places.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Vegas with the wife vs Vegas with the boys is like being in two different places.

NY with the wife vs NY with the boys

NYC with the wife vs NYC with the boys

NOLA with the wife vs NOLA with the boys

ATL with the wife vs ATL with the boys

Fishing with the wife vs fishing with the boys

Road trip with the wife vs Road trip with the boys

etc

It's less the destination & more the crowd you’re with.

Kamara could have been in any city in America with his jock/thug entourage & had this happen. The biggest difference is the likelihood of getting caught.  Another big difference is that in some less populated areas, AK & his entourage might have been treated to some local justice for starting such a brawl, which is actually an advantage to doing it in Vegas.

I’ve been at bars in rural areas where the bartender would have broken up the fight with a shotgun. That is substantially less likely in LV.

Yes, people go to Vegas to party. I’m not disputing that. But people go to lots of places to party. At some point you have to blame the people, not the place. 

 

[Anarchy99]

maybe it’s an NFL / football issue more than a city issue? 

Rae Caruth conspired to murder his pregnant g/f in North Carolina.

Ray Lewis (allegedly) stabbed two men in Atlanta.

I would post a complete list of NFL players who committed crimes, but I don’t have the week it would take to do so. 

I’m just saying, maybe it’s less the city & more the type of people who play professional football.  As has been suggested, young people who suddenly come into money - many of them with adulation of fans going back to Jr High School. Many have been able to get away with everything their whole lives because of their talent, and future earnings potential.

I’m not saying all NFL players are criminals - not by a country mile. But it’s a violent sport played by young wealthy entitled men, and some of them might not have the best instincts (like Kamara jumping into this fight instead of walking away when the beating started, for one glaring example).

And it could happen anywhere. The Vegas Strip isn’t a huge area. It’s a few large blocks. And yes, there is excess: casinos, bars, etc. the brothels some have referred to are outside of town, not on the strip, so saying prostitution is legal is a misnomer. In NV, yes. In LV? No. Unless something has changed since last I heard at least.

And just about every major city in America has a few blocks of nightlife, bars, even casinos. Plenty of big cities are known for the bustling night life. NYC, NOLA, ATL, SF, etc, etc, etc. This type of thing can happen anywhere.

But we do seem to historically see it quite a bit more with NFL players than other sports, and other walks of life.

I haven’t read too many, “accountant’s convention attendees engage in bar brawl sending 3 to the hospital” stories. Every other year for a decade+ I went to Pack Expo in Vegas, a packaging equipment expo with hoards of pharmacists & food manufacturers. Never saw a fight once.

People need to stop blaming Vegas for the lack of self control of grown men whi do stupid ####. 

I don’t think people are “blaming” Vegas per say. Mostly just circumstance. The Raiders facility is what, 2 blocks from the strip? The huge majority of hotels are on the strip. 

I know I shouldn’t eat ice cream. If a place has a flavor or two and I don’t see it, the chances are I won’t even thing of ice cream. But put a wall of ice cream in front of me, and guess what, I’m tempted  to get ice cream when I wasn’t even thinking of it. 

As for the accounting convention example, I’m guessing that there weren’t multi-millionaire accounts that were in their 20’s in top physical shape. 

Maybe some football players are more pre-disposed and have a gene that causes them to act a little bit differently than the rest of us. 

My discussions on LV apply to the entire population, not just football players. Visitors there have lots of choices in terms of places to go with the opportunity to get in trouble, IMO, more than most places, and more consolidated than other places. That should not be a revelation. 

All I have been trying to say is there are a lot of places for guys to get in trouble in Vegas. 

 

[travdogg]

maybe it’s an NFL / football issue more than a city issue? 

Rae Caruth conspired to murder his pregnant g/f in North Carolina.

Ray Lewis (allegedly) stabbed two men in Atlanta.

I would post a complete list of NFL players who committed crimes, but I don’t have the week it would take to do so. 

I’m just saying, maybe it’s less the city & more the type of people who play professional football.  As has been suggested, young people who suddenly come into money - many of them with adulation of fans going back to Jr High School. Many have been able to get away with everything their whole lives because of their talent, and future earnings potential.

I’m not saying all NFL players are criminals - not by a country mile. But it’s a violent sport played by young wealthy entitled men, and some of them might not have the best instincts (like Kamara jumping into this fight instead of walking away when the beating started, for one glaring example).

But we do seem to historically see it quite a bit more with NFL players than other sports, and other walks of life.

I haven’t read too many, “accountant’s convention attendees engage in bar brawl sending 3 to the hospital” stories. Every other year for a decade+ I went to Pack Expo in Vegas, a packaging equipment expo with hoards of pharmacists & food manufacturers. Never saw a fight once.

There have been studies(I'd have to search for links, but I've read multiple over the years) that NFL players and pro athletes in general are actually more responsible and less likely to get in trouble with the law than the average person in their age group. The difference is the 25 year old who stocks shelves at Costco isn't making national news when they assault somebody. 

There are what, 1700+ players in the NFL at all times. Mostly between the ages of 21-30. If you take any profession, and use that age group, you'll find a higher percentage of them to have criminal offenses of some kind then you will NFL players. Mike the accountant driving drunk matters to Mike and his friends and family. Mike the NFL WR who drives drunk matters to millions of people. 

 

[massraider]

People need to stop blaming Vegas for the lack of self control of grown men whi do stupid ####. 

If anyone is blaming Vegas, I agree with you.

I look at it like this: If Michael Irvin was in this draft this you want him going to Green Bay instead of Miami. Can you get coke in Green Bay? Yes. That doesn't mean you can find trouble 'just as easy' in Green Bay. 

It's simply not true.

 

[Sam Quentin]

The NFL isn’t exactly making themself look good lately. NFL security reportedly knew Kamara was wanted by police before the Pro Bowl but let him play anyway.

Not a great look at all.

Meh….let him play.  It’s not like he is going to escape….

 

[travdogg]

If anyone is blaming Vegas, I agree with you.

I look at it like this: If Michael Irvin was in this draft this you want him going to Green Bay instead of Miami. Can you get coke in Green Bay? Yes. That doesn't mean you can find trouble 'just as easy' in Green Bay. 

It's simply not true.

That was actually some of the logic of the Brett Favre trade in 1992. The Falcons were concerned he wouldn't be able to stay out of trouble in Atlanta. Much of that ceased being a concern in Green Bay.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

If anyone is blaming Vegas, I agree with you.

I look at it like this: If Michael Irvin was in this draft this you want him going to Green Bay instead of Miami. Can you get coke in Green Bay? Yes. That doesn't mean you can find trouble 'just as easy' in Green Bay. 

It's simply not true.

Right, but the flip side is also true: a coke head is gonna find them some coke whether they're in Anchorage, Alaska or Las Vegas. 

People looking for trouble will find it. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

That was actually some of the logic of the Brett Favre trade in 1992. The Falcons were concerned he wouldn't be able to stay out of trouble in Atlanta. Much of that ceased being a concern in Green Bay.

and yet he still somehow managed to send Richard photos to women in a well-publicized sexual harassment case.  

 

[travdogg]

and yet he still somehow managed to send Richard photos to women in a well-publicized sexual harassment case.  

That was NY Favre. If anything that might kinda prove the point. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Maybe some football players are more pre-disposed and have a gene that causes them to act a little bit differently than the rest of us. 

I very seriously doubt that. 

But most of them have been playing football since peewee league, and it is a contact sport. 

"genetic predisposition" likely isn't part of the equation. 

 

[greenmountaingoat]

I started writing a post thinking "it's silly to blame the city" and ended up feeling slightly differently after I'd worked my way through a logical progression of thought.

A higher frequency or likelihood of problems can be attributable to a greater level of opportunity.

People live on a spectrum of likelihood of doing stupid things. And within each person, that spectrum varies in time and in conditions. If you conducted an experiment, I think you could replicate results. 

100 people, all with the same sets of dispositions in each of 10 cities. It feels probable that that the frequency of problematic, stupid things being done will happen where the most opportunity to get into trouble exists.

This is not to take away in any way the idea of people should be held responsible for their actions. Or that people pre-disposed to doing stupid things aren't going to do stupid things, wherever they are.

It's not the city's fault. But as a fantasy football community, I think we can look at this as a probability exercise and come away with a reasonable conclusion that there would be fewer bad outcomes in an environment with fewer opportunities for them.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

That was NY Favre. If anything that might kinda prove the point. 

I think it proves the point that people who will do stupid #### will do it in GB, Wisconsin or in NY. 

Also, cellphones/sending digital pics of one's genitalia wasn't really a thing until Favre got to NY, so we also have to look at what's technically possible. 

Who knows what shenanigans Favre really got up to in GB. As we know, lots of stuff gets disappeared when it comes to star athletes.  

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

There have been studies(I'd have to search for links, but I've read multiple over the years) that NFL players and pro athletes in general are actually more responsible and less likely to get in trouble with the law than the average person in their age group. The difference is the 25 year old who stocks shelves at Costco isn't making national news when they assault somebody. 

There are what, 1700+ players in the NFL at all times. Mostly between the ages of 21-30. If you take any profession, and use that age group, you'll find a higher percentage of them to have criminal offenses of some kind then you will NFL players. Mike the accountant driving drunk matters to Mike and his friends and family. Mike the NFL WR who drives drunk matters to millions of people. 

I concede this is a good point. 

 

[menobrown]

Different strokes for different folks on what does it for them but this conversation makes me recall an interview I heard from the late Ken Caminit in the late 90's discussing his alcoholism.

He was asked what city did he struggle the most and the interviewer tried to lead him by saying something like LA, NY? Caminit said no, it was Pittsburgh, said there was nothing else to do.

For me I'd argue two things. You can in fact get in trouble anywhere so to just blame Vegas is not something I'd agree with. But to ignore that Vegas does not offer more temptations and opportunity to get into bad situations is something I disagree with even more.

 

[Sam Quentin]

I very seriously doubt that. 

But most of them have been playing football since peewee league, and it is a contact sport. 

"genetic predisposition" likely isn't part of the equation. 

CTE, being allowed to get away with stuff and high testosterone sports culture are probably huge factors. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I started writing a post thinking "it's silly to blame the city" and ended up feeling slightly differently after I'd worked my way through a logical progression of thought.

A higher frequency or likelihood of problems can be attributable to a greater level of opportunity.

People live on a spectrum of likelihood of doing stupid things. And within each person, that spectrum varies in time and in conditions. If you conducted an experiment, I think you could replicate results. 

100 people, all with the same sets of dispositions in each of 10 cities. It feels probable that that the frequency of problematic, stupid things being done will happen where the most opportunity to get into trouble exists.

This is not to take away in any way the idea of people should be held responsible for their actions. Or that people pre-disposed to doing stupid things aren't going to do stupid things, wherever they are.

It's not the city's fault. But as a fantasy football community, I think we can look at this as a probability exercise and come away with a reasonable conclusion that there would be fewer bad outcomes in an environment with fewer opportunities for them.

Or, as I suggested eaelier, a higher probability of getting caught in a city that's a CCTV Orwellian nightmare, with a large police presence. 

At the end of the day it's on the individual to make the right choices, whether that's @Anarchy99 with his ice cream, or Kamara jumping into the fray instead of walking away when the punches started to get thrown. 

Anarchy might be cleaning the drips of Rocky Road off of his shirt because he lacked the self control, and Kamara is likely facing significant consequences for his stupid decision. 

I don't think Vegas made Kamara a violent thug who would punch or kick someone who's already unconscious, just like I don't think the ice cream parlor made Anarchy eat 3 gallons of ice cream.

Personal responsibility is still the most relevant theme. 

I have a buddy who's been clean & sober 20+ years. He works as a bartender in AZ. Surrounded by temptation every single day, he celebrates another year of sobriety every year. Just because one is surrounded by temptation doesn't mean one will succumb to it. 

 

[greenmountaingoat]

Or, as I suggested eaelier, a higher probability of getting caught in a city that's a CCTV Orwellian nightmare, with a large police presence. 

At the end of the day it's on the individual to make the right choices, whether that's @Anarchy99 with his ice cream, or Kamara jumping into the fray instead of walking away when the punches started to get thrown. 

Anarchy might be cleaning the drips of Rocky Road off of his shirt because he lacked the self control, and Kamara is likely facing significant consequences for his stupid decision. 

I don't think Vegas made Kamara a violent thug who would punch or kick someone who's already unconscious, just like I don't think the ice cream parlor made Anarchy eat 3 gallons of ice cream.

Personal responsibility is still the most relevant theme. 

I have a buddy who's been clean & sober 20+ years. He works as a bartender in AZ. Surrounded by temptation every single day, he celebrates another year of sobriety every year. Just because one is surrounded by temptation doesn't mean one will succumb to it. 

I think we agree that these are not mutually exclusive concepts. You're suggesting that I'm sliding the bar too far away from personal responsibility.  I didn't mean to set the bar anywhere in particular. Just to acknowledge that it's likely from a probability standpoint to have some sort of impact. 

 

[travdogg]

CTE, being allowed to get away with stuff and high testosterone sports culture are probably huge factors. 

Just as likely none of those things play a role, and someone just makes bad decisions.

Not picking on you, as I see it mentioned a lot, but I really hate this notion that whenever a football player does something stupid, it's CTE. CTE is pretty rare, even among NFL players. It's not impossible (obviously, it exists) but it shouldn't be among the top go-to reasons to explain bad behavior.

 

[massraider]

I don't think Vegas made Kamara a violent thug who would punch or kick someone who's already unconscious, just like I don't think the ice cream parlor made Anarchy eat 3 gallons of ice cream.

Take a look and see who is arguing this. No one is. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Take a look and see who is arguing this. No one is. 

People are arguing that Las Vegas is a place with more temptation, and as such it increases the chance that something bad will happen. 

Many, many people are arguing this.

I am saying that whatever bar Kamara was at was where the opportunity for something bad to happen was, and it still required Kamara to jump into the fight. 

That's 1 place, not Las Vegas as a whole. 

 

[massraider]

People are arguing that Las Vegas is a place with more temptation, and as such it increases the chance that something bad will happen. 

Many, many people are arguing this.

I am saying that whatever bar


Kamara


was at was where the opportunity for something bad to happen was, and it still required


Kamara


to jump into the fight. 

That's 1 place, not Las Vegas as a whole. 

That's not the same as absolving someone of their personal responsibility. 

Both things can be true, he can be responsible for his own actions, and Vegas can offer much more temptation than other places. 

I really don't know why you think this is not the case.

Unless you think opportunity is the same in every city, in which case I will simply point out you are incorrect.

 

[greenmountaingoat]

People are arguing that Las Vegas is a place with more temptation, and as such it increases the chance that something bad will happen. 

Many, many people are arguing this.

I am saying that whatever bar Kamara was at was where the opportunity for something bad to happen, and it still required Kamara to jump into the fight. 

That's 1 place, not Las Vegas as a whole. 

Since we're going down this road, where would Kamara have been if the pro bowl had been in Hawaii?

Where's the guy who's face is broken? 

Unanswerable questions, sure but the odds of something like what happened happening are probably lower in Hawaii. Probably. That's what people are saying.  

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Since we're going down this road, where would Kamara have been if the pro bowl had been in Hawaii?

Where's the guy who's face is broken? 

Unanswerable questions, sure but the odds of something like what happened happening are probably lower in Hawaii. Probably. That's what people are saying.  

Yes, I get it. And my contention is that this could have easily happened in any location that Kamara was with that posse. 

And at the end of the day, it was still Kamara's choice to jump into the fight or walk away. He did not walk away. 

 

[greenmountaingoat]

Yes, I get it. And my contention is that this could have easily happened in any location that Kamara was with that posse. 

And at the end of the day, it was still Kamara's choice to jump into the fight or walk away. He did not walk away. 

You got a funny way of agreeing with me 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

That's not the same as absolving someone of their personal responsibility. 

I don't get it - I am also saying it's about personal responsibility. I've consistently said this. That AK was responsible for his decision. 

Both things can be true, he can be responsible for his own actions, and Vegas can offer much more temptation than other places. 

I really don't know why you think this is not the case.

Temptation is everywhere, in every city. 

What I take issue with is taking an overarching theory and applying it to an individual, in an individual circumstance.

I agree: In general, Las Vegas has more temptation. 

But Alvin Kamara is an individual who was at one place doing one thing. Kamara didn't get into 50 fights because there were 50 bars nearby, right?

Unless you think opportunity is the same in every city, in which case I will simply point out you are incorrect.

Opportunity merely means having a selection. Kamara was (presumably) liquored up with his entourage, and they bum rushed a dude & put him in the hospital. 

They didn't go bar to bar to look for someone to beat up. So I contend that they could have been in a city with 1 bar and had the same result. 

And no city has just one bar, so I am disagreeing that Las Vegas inspired this incident. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

You got a funny way of agreeing with me 

 

[JohnnyU]

Yes, I get it. And my contention is that this could have easily happened in any location that Kamara was with that posse. 

And at the end of the day, it was still Kamara's choice to jump into the fight or walk away. He did not walk away. 

I believe we get about 2 or 3 life changing moments in our lives and the decisions you make can make or break you.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I believe we get about 2 or 3 life changing moments in our lives and the decisions you make can make or break you.

That’s a fair assessment. 

 

[Anarchy99]

Or, as I suggested eaelier, a higher probability of getting caught in a city that's a CCTV Orwellian nightmare, with a large police presence. 

At the end of the day it's on the individual to make the right choices, whether that's @Anarchy99 with his ice cream, or Kamara jumping into the fray instead of walking away when the punches started to get thrown. 

Anarchy might be cleaning the drips of Rocky Road off of his shirt because he lacked the self control, and Kamara is likely facing significant consequences for his stupid decision. 

I don't think Vegas made Kamara a violent thug who would punch or kick someone who's already unconscious, just like I don't think the ice cream parlor made Anarchy eat 3 gallons of ice cream.

Personal responsibility is still the most relevant theme. 

I have a buddy who's been clean & sober 20+ years. He works as a bartender in AZ. Surrounded by temptation every single day, he celebrates another year of sobriety every year. Just because one is surrounded by temptation doesn't mean one will succumb to it. 

I used ice cream as an example of having to show restraint and self-control. Let's go in a different direction. I have no desire to go fool around on my wife. Sure, locally I could find someone to hook up with if I really wanted to. You could put me in a room with 25 local attractive women, give me a bunch of drinks, and nothing would happen. There might be one such room for miles and miles with those types of women in it. Sure, there are a few truly beautiful women around here, but even the pretty girls are just that . . . pretty. If I wanted to indulge in mind-altering substances, I literally have no idea where to find them around here. (It probably wouldn't take that much effort to try to track someone down, but I never see anyone offering or peddling anything).

Put me in a room in Vegas with 25 attractive women, dressed how women dress in Vegas, give me a few drinks, and I still wouldn't do anything. The women suddenly go from pretty to goddesses. Now rinse and repeat . . . there are 100+ rooms in Vegas with hot women dressed how women dress in Vegas, the next room having women hotter than the room before. By the 100th room, on the 10th day, I might not even remember my wife's name. I still wouldn't do anything . . . but it certainly would start creeping into my mind, and I'd be having some really impure thoughts. The same thing could happen in other cities, but there might be 25 rooms instead of 100+, and some of the women might be attractive, but not in the quantities as Vegas. In LV, I got propositioned to purchase any and all substances either in my hotel, on the casino floor, on the grounds, or on the street by the entrances.

The point being, in my regular life, in my regular geography, with the people I bump into in my daily existence, I would have to search pretty hard to get in trouble. Not only that, I would not be contemplating about getting in trouble, as there are hardly any situations that would stimulate me to think about getting in trouble. 

As others have said, trouble lurks on every street corner in Vegas. Your eyeballs don't see those things at home. Should people be able to show restraint and ignore those temptations? Of course. But in Vegas, temptation is in your face 24/7. At home, not so much. I'm actually surprised there aren't MORE incidents involving athletes when they are in Vegas. I also think if I lived in Vegas, the whole ambiance and excitement would wear off after a couple of months. The big draw to LV is how much more exciting it is compared to home (wherever else that may be). But its business model is selling temptation. There are a couple other cities where that is part of the marketing campaign, but for Vegas, IT IS the marketing campaign.

 

[-OZ-]

I used ice cream as an example of having to show restraint and self-control. Let's go in a different direction. I have no desire to go fool around on my wife. Sure, locally I could find someone to hook up with if I really wanted to. You could put me in a room with 25 local attractive women, give me a bunch of drinks, and nothing would happen. There might be one such room for miles and miles with those types of women in it. Sure, there are a few truly beautiful women around here, but even the pretty girls are just that . . . pretty. If I wanted to indulge in mind-altering substances, I literally have no idea where to find them around here. (It probably wouldn't take that much effort to try to track someone down, but I never see anyone offering or peddling anything).

Put me in a room in Vegas with 25 attractive women, dressed how women dress in Vegas, give me a few drinks, and I still wouldn't do anything. The women suddenly go from pretty to goddesses. Now rinse and repeat . . . there are 100+ rooms in Vegas with hot women dressed how women dress in Vegas, the next room having women hotter than the room before. By the 100th room, on the 10th day, I might not even remember my wife's name. I still wouldn't do anything . . . but it certainly would start creeping into my mind, and I'd be having some really impure thoughts. The same thing could happen in other cities, but there might be 25 rooms instead of 100+, and some of the women might be attractive, but not in the quantities as Vegas. In LV, I got propositioned to purchase any and all substances either in my hotel, on the casino floor, on the grounds, or on the street by the entrances.

The point being, in my regular life, in my regular geography, with the people I bump into in my daily existence, I would have to search pretty hard to get in trouble. Not only that, I would not be contemplating about getting in trouble, as there are hardly any situations that would stimulate me to think about getting in trouble. 

As others have said, trouble lurks on every street corner in Vegas. Your eyeballs don't see those things at home. Should people be able to show restraint and ignore those temptations? Of course. But in Vegas, temptation is in your face 24/7. At home, not so much. I'm actually surprised there aren't MORE incidents involving athletes when they are in Vegas. I also think if I lived in Vegas, the whole ambiance and excitement would wear off after a couple of months. The big draw to LV is how much more exciting it is compared to home (wherever else that may be). But its business model is selling temptation. There are a couple other cities where that is part of the marketing campaign, but for Vegas, IT IS the marketing campaign.

 
sure, just like all major professional athletes deal with more temptation than you or I, or most people deal with on a daily basis. 
Vegas might provide more opportunity, but that doesn’t change a thing about personal responsibility. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I used ice cream as an example of having to show restraint and self-control. Let's go in a different direction. I have no desire to go fool around on my wife. Sure, locally I could find someone to hook up with if I really wanted to. You could put me in a room with 25 local attractive women, give me a bunch of drinks, and nothing would happen. There might be one such room for miles and miles with those types of women in it. Sure, there are a few truly beautiful women around here, but even the pretty girls are just that . . . pretty. If I wanted to indulge in mind-altering substances, I literally have no idea where to find them around here. (It probably wouldn't take that much effort to try to track someone down, but I never see anyone offering or peddling anything).

Put me in a room in Vegas with 25 attractive women, dressed how women dress in Vegas, give me a few drinks, and I still wouldn't do anything. The women suddenly go from pretty to goddesses. Now rinse and repeat . . . there are 100+ rooms in Vegas with hot women dressed how women dress in Vegas, the next room having women hotter than the room before. By the 100th room, on the 10th day, I might not even remember my wife's name. I still wouldn't do anything . . . but it certainly would start creeping into my mind, and I'd be having some really impure thoughts. The same thing could happen in other cities, but there might be 25 rooms instead of 100+, and some of the women might be attractive, but not in the quantities as Vegas. In LV, I got propositioned to purchase any and all substances either in my hotel, on the casino floor, on the grounds, or on the street by the entrances.

The point being, in my regular life, in my regular geography, with the people I bump into in my daily existence, I would have to search pretty hard to get in trouble. Not only that, I would not be contemplating about getting in trouble, as there are hardly any situations that would stimulate me to think about getting in trouble. 

As others have said, trouble lurks on every street corner in Vegas. Your eyeballs don't see those things at home. Should people be able to show restraint and ignore those temptations? Of course. But in Vegas, temptation is in your face 24/7. At home, not so much. I'm actually surprised there aren't MORE incidents involving athletes when they are in Vegas. I also think if I lived in Vegas, the whole ambiance and excitement would wear off after a couple of months. The big draw to LV is how much more exciting it is compared to home (wherever else that may be). But its business model is selling temptation. There are a couple other cities where that is part of the marketing campaign, but for Vegas, IT IS the marketing campaign.

I got it with the ice cream analogy.

I still think you’re making a general point about a specific scenario, and it’s a round peg for a square hole.

Kamara wasn’t at 100 bars. He wasn’t even at 25 bars. He was at 1 bar. 

Every city has one bar. Ok, maybe not Salt Lake City, but still. 

Kamara was at one place with a group of violent idiots, and they did something violent & idiotic. 

Las Vegas didn’t make them Violent & idiotic, and unlike your scenario with rooms full of hot women, their 1st experience in that 1 place did in fact result in idiotic violence.

So it’s not really proving your point.

Sure, if you told me Kamara was on a bar crawl & went to 25 bars and in the 25th bar something like this happened, that’s a better analogy.

But that’s not what happened. So the “temptations of Vegas” as a whole seems like a bad analogy.

A better description is “an idiot & his idiot friends went to a bar in a city & violently assaulted someone”. 

 

[Pipes]

My issue is people visit Vegas, spend a couple of days partying hard on the strip and think all of Vegas is like that.  It's not.  There isn't temptation on every corner (Though you can gamble just about everywhere).  Litterally all the action happens downtown or on the strip.  I have relatives that live here and it's really easy to avoid.  My last couple of times out here I've avoided the Strip and downtown entirely.  Yes the stadium is right down there, along with T Mobile for the Knights but teams don't stay in those hotels when they come to town for games too many distractions.  Even the Raiders don't spend a ton of time down there.  Their practice facilities and team headquarters is on the edge of town in South Las Vegas, miles and miles from the strip.  My point is a vast majority of Las Vegas isn't what everyone sees when they come to town with their boys/girls to let loose for a few days.  

 

[Anarchy99]

I got it with the ice cream analogy.

I still think you’re making a general point about a specific scenario, and it’s a round peg for a square hole.

Kamara wasn’t at 100 bars. He wasn’t even at 25 bars. He was at 1 bar. 

Every city has one bar. Ok, maybe not Salt Lake City, but still. 

Kamara was at one place with a group of violent idiots, and they did something violent & idiotic. 

Las Vegas didn’t make them Violent & idiotic, and unlike your scenario with rooms full of hot women, their 1st experience in that 1 place did in fact result in idiotic violence.

So it’s not really proving your point.

Sure, if you told me Kamara was on a bar crawl & went to 25 bars and in the 25th bar something like this happened, that’s a better analogy.

But that’s not what happened. So the “temptations of Vegas” as a whole seems like a bad analogy.

A better description is “an idiot & his idiot friends went to a bar in a city & violently assaulted someone”. 

Part of the disconnect is I am only commenting on Vegas and nothing at all about Kamara. What got me started was someone suggested that Vegas overall was no different than any other city, which I disagreed with. Nothing I posted has anything to do with Kamara. All I was pointing out is that Vegas overall is constructed and marketing to tempt people to do things they might not otherwise.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

This thread is getting ridiculous. Maybe start a new Vegas thread to discuss how hot the woman are there v. in Butte, Montana.

And someone please help Anarchy find drugs in whatever small town he lives in.

 

[DocHolliday]

What happens in Cleveland stays in Cleveland.  

Says no one.  

 

[Anarchy99]

My issue is people visit Vegas, spend a couple of days partying hard on the strip and think all of Vegas is like that.  It's not.  There isn't temptation on every corner (Though you can gamble just about everywhere).  Litterally all the action happens downtown or on the strip.  I have relatives that live here and it's really easy to avoid.  My last couple of times out here I've avoided the Strip and downtown entirely.  Yes the stadium is right down there, along with T Mobile for the Knights but teams don't stay in those hotels when they come to town for games too many distractions.  Even the Raiders don't spend a ton of time down there.  Their practice facilities and team headquarters is on the edge of town in South Las Vegas, miles and miles from the strip.  My point is a vast majority of Las Vegas isn't what everyone sees when they come to town with their boys/girls to let loose for a few days.  

Vegas for residents is way different than Vegas for tourists. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. But most tourists and visitors are there for the strip, the casinos, the shows, the nightlife, etc. I don't know what percentage of people that fly in are there to blow off steam vs. coming to visit Aunt Genie, there to do business by selling tractor parts on the outskirts of town, or people there for any number of reasons. But I am guessing LV gets a lot more adults flying in to party and have a good time than just about anywhere else in the country.

 

[Buckna]

Since we're going down this road, where would Kamara have been if the pro bowl had been in Hawaii?

Where's the guy who's face is broken? 

Unanswerable questions, sure but the odds of something like what happened happening are probably lower in Hawaii. Probably. That's what people are saying.  

Didn’t Marvin Harrison assault some fans in Hawaii during a Pro Bowl weekend many years ago?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Part of the disconnect is I am only commenting on Vegas and nothing at all about Kamara. What got me started was someone suggested that Vegas overall was no different than any other city, which I disagreed with. Nothing I posted has anything to do with Kamara. All I was pointing out is that Vegas overall is constructed and marketing to tempt people to do things they might not otherwise.

Fair enough.

As this is the Kamara topic & people were making that logical leap to "Vegas can't have an NFL team because of stuff like this!", I kept it on-topic. 

In that light, the "blame Vegas" aspect seemed like a slippery slope. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Didn’t Marvin Harrison assault some fans in Hawaii during a Pro Bowl weekend many years ago?

Allegedly put them in a choke hold. 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=2025485

Damn that city of violent temptation, uh, Honolulu?   

 

[Buckna]

Allegedly put them in a choke hold. 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=2025485

Damn that city of violent temptation, uh, Honolulu?   

Need the laughing reaction emojis back!

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

What happens in Cleveland stays in Cleveland.  

Says no one.  

I'm reasonably certain that the Las Vegas marketing campaign refers to strippers & gambling, not a group of idiots assaulting someone in a bar though. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

This thread is getting ridiculous. Maybe start a new Vegas thread to discuss how hot the woman are there v. in Butte, Montana.

And someone please help Anarchy find drugs in whatever small town he lives in.

laugh reaction emoji

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Allegedly put them in a choke hold. 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=2025485

Damn that city of violent temptation, uh, Honolulu?   

Good thing he didn't have his gun.

 

[-OZ-]

This thread is getting ridiculous. Maybe start a new Vegas thread to discuss how hot the woman are there v. in Butte, Montana.

And someone please help Anarchy find drugs in whatever small town he lives in.

FTR, I’ll take Montana.