MTskibum
Footballguy
Confirmation age depends on the local parish, highschool is most common but some places it happens as early as 5th/6th grade.
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Religious Affiliation, If Any - A Poll (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
Confirmation age depends on the local parish, highschool is most common but some places it happens as early as 5th/6th grade.
TLEF316
Footballguy
Was raised Catholic up until like age 13 or 14 (confirmation) but it didn't stick. Got all the sacraments and actually went to a Jesuit college (not for religious reasons, I just liked the school) but I just never got the appeal. Going to church and CCD (basically night school you had to go to in order to get the sacraments) always just felt like a chore.
Between the whole child molestation epidemic (my very religious grandparents wanted me to be an altar boy...thank goodness I dodged THAT bullet), the church's stance on divorce (my parents felt very unwelcome once they split up, which is mostly why we eventually stopped going) and just the general crappiness I see in the world (I dont see how a God like the one I was taught about would let those things happen) I have no interest in exploring religion again.
Would probably fake it (not lie about it....but I'd consider going to religious services if it was VERY important to my partner) if I ended up getting together with someone who was religious, but other than that, dont see myself going into a church again other than funerals and weddings.
Between the whole child molestation epidemic (my very religious grandparents wanted me to be an altar boy...thank goodness I dodged THAT bullet), the church's stance on divorce (my parents felt very unwelcome once they split up, which is mostly why we eventually stopped going) and just the general crappiness I see in the world (I dont see how a God like the one I was taught about would let those things happen) I have no interest in exploring religion again.
Would probably fake it (not lie about it....but I'd consider going to religious services if it was VERY important to my partner) if I ended up getting together with someone who was religious, but other than that, dont see myself going into a church again other than funerals and weddings.
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
When I first realized I was atheist I would tell my Christian family I was agnostic in fear of how they'd react to the word atheist. Now idgaf and wear the label proudly.
For those interested, in the Orthodox Christian tradition, infants are baptized within a few months of being born. It is not to wash away original sin which is, to my understanding, a construct of Roman Catholicism. Baptism is a sacrament in Orthodoxy and we consider it a "putting on of Christ". Some use the symbolism of receiving a white garment (which is later stained through sin and cleansed again through confession.) At that same service, the baby is chrismated (which is akin to Confirmation) and they also receive communion. It's a sacramental trifecta and, as you might guess, a really big deal to Orthodox Christians and the church community.
Tangentially, one of my favorite events in the church, though it is not a sacrament and not always done, is "churching" a baby. This happens around 40 days after birth. The priest meets the family and the infant at the entrance to the church and then, carrying the baby in his hands, he holds the baby up to the icons to introduce the infant to the saints and Mary and Jesus, etc. The baby gets to go behind the altar. It's a little like the Lion King where they hold the newborn up high for all to see. Gives me goosebumps just thinking about it. Here is a shaky but beautiful example: Churching of an infant
Tangentially, one of my favorite events in the church, though it is not a sacrament and not always done, is "churching" a baby. This happens around 40 days after birth. The priest meets the family and the infant at the entrance to the church and then, carrying the baby in his hands, he holds the baby up to the icons to introduce the infant to the saints and Mary and Jesus, etc. The baby gets to go behind the altar. It's a little like the Lion King where they hold the newborn up high for all to see. Gives me goosebumps just thinking about it. Here is a shaky but beautiful example: Churching of an infant
dozer
Footballguy
That just seems really crazy to me... What is the title of the guy in the cape? It that a run of the mill priest?
Marauder
Footballguy
I voted Atheist. I went to Catholic school for 12 years but never believed any of it. Literally never. I remember in the second grade going to mass every day and going through first communion, confession,etc and trying to believe but ending up just going through the motions because it never made any logical sense. I've tried over the years to believe but I just don't no matter how hard I try. I'm still open to the idea that there could be a higher power. I even think the idea that we're part of simulation by some higher power is a possibility. I think it's all pretty much unknowable.
BTW, Atheism does not necessarily mean you believe there is no God, just that you don't believe in God. Very different.
BTW, Atheism does not necessarily mean you believe there is no God, just that you don't believe in God. Very different.
He's either a priest or an archpriest.
Jesus instructed that children should be brought to him and welcomed so they are rightly given the same gifts from God that older Orthodox Christians receive. It is not a willful, intentional act of the person (I assume most think of Baptism as something that a person chooses to do, a commitment to Jesus, etc.) We see it as a gift to be received from God which infants rightfully get.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
Somewhere between atheist, agnostic, unaffiliated, Taoist and Buddhist…
dozer
Footballguy
The idea that infants should be baptized to receive a gift from God raises questions for me, particularly about consent and the autonomy of the individual. While I understand that your faith sees it differently, I tend to view such practices as cultural traditions passed through generations rather than as divine imperatives.
General Malaise
Footballguy
Mormons and Christians are considered the same? Huh.
Mormonism is one denomination of Christianity. Meaning, Mormons are Christians but not all Christians are Mormons. A vast, vast majority aren’t.
Zow
Footballguy
Same here.
Zow
Footballguy
Yes, I think that’s fair. Christianity is generally defined as the belief in God and that H/he sent Jesus to die on the cross to open heaven. My understanding is that the LDS faith generally believes this. Obviously there have other beliefs that are unique to their faith, but I think it’s fair to group them in the Christianity bucket.
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I won't hijack this thread with a long aside about infant baptism. If you truly have questions or just want to know more, there is plenty to be found online about the practice. In Christianity, I would consider baptism a "divine imperative" because Christ said so and provided his own as an example. To extend the practice to infants is not Biblical and I can see where there'd be concerns or pushback. Certainly autonomy is out the window--we're talking about 3-month-olds who have none.
SFBayDuck
Footballguy
Interesting, I would disagree with this. Mormonism seems to me a completely different religion than Christianity, even as diverse a bucket as that is. They even have their own, separate book. Some would even call them polytheistic, which would seem to go very much against Christian beliefs.
My cousin converted to marry a Mormon and none of the rest of the Christians/Catholics in the family were even allowed to go to the ceremony in the temple.
Not a judgement as I don’t believe in any of it, but it seems almost like saying Islam and Judaism and Christianity are the same because Abraham is a key figure in all of them.
General Malaise
Footballguy
Well said, GB. There seem to be more similarities in biblical history between Jews, Christians and Muslims than Momons and Christians.
I think of Mormonism like Scientology or Jahovaa Witness....cult, not Christianity.
TripItUp
Footballguy
upperclass, male and educated not the ideal demographic for religion.
lots of rich, educated guys on fantasy football sites.
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TripItUp
Footballguy
correct, we can't really know. Which begs the question...how can anybody really claim to be an atheist?
Zow
Footballguy
If that's how Christianity were defined, then sure. But it's not. It's defined as a religion based on the teachings of Jesus and the idea that he's God's son. The Mormon's believe that. Jews and Muslim's don't.
I know my argument here is semantical, and I am certainly not defending nor championing the LDS faith here, but I believe I'm technically correct here.
Zow
Footballguy
Same as anybody can claim to be a Christian - one believes it to be true.* Obviously none of us know any of this stuff with 100% certainty.
*Using myself as an example, I don't believe there is a God. I believe that the universe started somewhat randomly and haphazardly when matter exploded and here we are randomly millions of years later. But, even with this belief, it's not like I can definitely disprove God much like believers can't actually prove God exists.
Zow
Footballguy
Well, I mean, there is the whole Jesus in the USA, super special underwear, getting universes, an arguable doctrinal basis for multiple wives and all that, but... definitionally still Christian.
Zow
Footballguy
Why can't a branch of Christianity be a cult?
James Bond
Footballguy
Mother was a lifelong Catholic. Father was Protestant. I was baptized and confirmed in the Methodist church. I was married in an Episcopalian Church.
Now I think my religion is science.
My wife thinks it's Fantasy Football.
Now I think my religion is science.
My wife thinks it's Fantasy Football.
SFBayDuck
Footballguy
I’ve seen it out this way - Mormons consider themselves Christians, but the rest of Christianity doesn’t see it that way.
The Jews have the Old Testament.
The polytheism would seem to disqualify it, from what I know.
It’s one thing to have different rituals and interpretations of the same book, it’s another to bring in new saints and new chapters altogether and believe there are multiple gods and that a man can essentially become one as well.
Like I said I don’t believe any of it but was raised in it and have read the (entire) Bible and at one point was interested in and explored different religions. But I’m no theologian so that’s all I got on this topic.
General Malaise
Footballguy
That's not accurate. The Mormon Bible has far more variances and additions than that. They also don't adhere to the Nicene's Creed - father and son being one. I like the description I've read that Mormonism is essentially Christian Fan Fiction.
But for this thread, call it Christianity. That makes sense foe building a Pie Chart of FBG belief or not.
General Malaise
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
I've read the Mormon Bible and don't recall concluding the bold. I'll have to ask some of my Mormon friends. Interesting if true because that's a large factor to my "they're technically Christians" position.
ETA: Are we maybe confusing the Book of Mormon as being the Bible? My understanding is that Mormons follow the Bible and then the subsequent Book of Mormon (written by Joseph Smith and wonderfully satirized by South Park). FWIW, I do think the LDS faith derives more of its beliefs and practices from the Book of Mormon but they still believe what I posited above.
BLOCKED_PUNT
Footballguy
Not trying to be a troll here or be confrontational but can't one still be educated and still believe in God/be Christian? Yes, with all the scientific advances it makes it hard to believe in some of the dogma and I'm sure that's why a lot of us are not religious but I'm not quite sure thats why.
BLOCKED_PUNT
Footballguy
also I'd like to be on the team with Zow and Tripitup. Mormonism is just an offshoot of Christianity.
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
The Book of Mormon is intended as a supplement, not a replacement. There others like this. The Gospel of Judas, for one. Gnostics had a bunch of writings that were not included in the Bible.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
from catholic.com:
from catholic.com
The Catholic Church has an official stance which declares Mormonism is non-Christian.
Wikipedia has an article on Mormonism and Nicene Christianity
When I saw the poll I voted Christian. I am a Jesus follower, currently attending a PCA Presbyterian church in NYC.
After reading Joe's first post, I realized I had made an error. I don't know anyone who is Nicene Christian who thinks Mormons are following the Christ of the Bible.
My hometown church in Michigan is non-denominational but considers itself reformed. If you know anything about West Michigan, it is Reformlandia - both the Reformed Church of America and Christian Reformed Church are based there. Most protestant universities and high schools in West Michigan are affiliated with or align with the RCA or CRC.
This article, from GotAnswers.org, is written from a Reformed position and is in alignment with how I think of Mormonism.
Distinctive Beliefs of the Mormon Church
from catholic.com
Are Mormons Christian?
The Catholic Church has an official stance which declares Mormonism is non-Christian.
Wikipedia has an article on Mormonism and Nicene Christianity
When I saw the poll I voted Christian. I am a Jesus follower, currently attending a PCA Presbyterian church in NYC.
After reading Joe's first post, I realized I had made an error. I don't know anyone who is Nicene Christian who thinks Mormons are following the Christ of the Bible.
My hometown church in Michigan is non-denominational but considers itself reformed. If you know anything about West Michigan, it is Reformlandia - both the Reformed Church of America and Christian Reformed Church are based there. Most protestant universities and high schools in West Michigan are affiliated with or align with the RCA or CRC.
This article, from GotAnswers.org, is written from a Reformed position and is in alignment with how I think of Mormonism.
Are Mormons Christians?
Although Mormons profess to be Christians and say they believe the Word of God, there are many of their beliefs that contradict Christianity. In fact, Mormonism can be referred to as a cult, which can be defined as “a religious group that denies one or more of the fundamentals of biblical truth.” Mormons say they are Christians, but because they reject foundational truths from God’s Word, they are not.
Joseph Smith, who referred to himself as “The Prophet,” founded the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the mid-1800s. He claimed to have seen a vision of God the Father and God the Son, in which they denounced modern Christianity and appointed Smith to reveal and restore “true” Christianity (Articles of Faith, p. 182–185). Three years later, Smith alleged that the angel Moroni told him about some golden plates on which the Book of Mormon was written. In spite of Smith’s questionable background and proclivity toward bending the truth (see The Origin, Rise, and Progress of Mormonism, New York, 1861; and Mormonism Unveiled, Painesville, Ohio, 1834), many believed Smith, and a new “religion” was born. Today, the members of the Mormon Church number in the millions.
The Book of Mormon is purported to be a new revelation, one that Mormons say is part of the new covenant to Israel and “another witness” to the truth of the Bible (History of the Church 4:461, 8th Article of Faith). Aside from the many theological conflicts with the Bible and historical and archeological fact, the writing of the Book of Mormon was shrouded in mystery and false claims. For example, Joseph Smith and his associates asserted that one Professor Charles Anthon of Columbia University verified the Egyptian characters on the golden plates. However, this same professor wrote a rebuttal letter soon after, saying that he never did any such thing and had, in fact, found the characters to be a hoax. In addition, many verses in the Mormon scriptures have been changed over the years, as the church leaders attempt to cover up something embarrassing in their past and to defend themselves against criticism (see http://mit.irr.org/changes-latter-day-scripture). These facts alone are enough to cast much doubt on the veracity of the Book of Mormon.
One of the many areas in which Mormons fall short of saving faith is their belief that God is merely an exalted man who earned his position by good works (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345). This directly contradicts the Bible, which states that God has existed in His position as God of the universe from eternity past (Revelation 1:8; 1 Timothy 1:17; 6:15–16; Psalm 102:24–27). God was never a man (Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Hosea 11:9) and is the holy and powerful Creator of all things (Genesis 1; Psalm 24:1; Isaiah 37:16). Mormons also believe that they themselves can attain the status of gods in the afterlife through their works here on earth (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345–354). However, no man can ever become like God (1 Samuel 2:2; Isaiah 43:10–11; 44:6; 45:21–22), despite what the serpent told Eve in the garden (Genesis 3:5).
Mormons also believe that Jesus was a god, but not God Himself (Mormon Doctrine, p. 547; Articles of Faith, p. 35; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372). It is essential to Christian faith that Jesus is one with God and that He is God’s only begotten Son who became flesh (John 1:1, 14; John 3:16). Only Jesus’ oneness with God would have allowed Him to live a sinless, blameless life (Hebrews 7:26). And only Jesus Christ was able to pay the price for our sins by His death on the cross (Romans 4:25; Acts 4:12).
Those who follow the Mormon faith also believe that they can attain heaven through works (Doctrine and Covenants 58:42–43; 2 Nephi 9:23–24; Alma 34:30–35; Articles of Faith, p.92). While they claim faith in Christ, they also rely on following the commandments of the Mormon Church (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p 188; Mormon Doctrine, p. 670) and practicing good works (2 Nephi 25:23; Alma 11:37) in order to achieve salvation. The Bible is very clear on this point, stating that good works can never earn the way to heaven (Romans 11:6; Ephesians 2:8–9; Titus 3:5) and that faith in Jesus Christ alone is the only way to salvation (John 10:9; 11:25; 14:6; Acts 4:12). Salvation by grace is incompatible with salvation by human works (Romans 11:6).
Sadly, many in the Mormon Church are unaware of the religion’s shady past, amended scriptures, and even the full doctrine of their church. Many Mormons who have discovered these things have left the church and come to a true saving faith in Jesus Christ. As Christians, we must treat Mormons with love and understand that they are among those deceived by Satan himself (1 Peter 5:8). Satan’s goal is to distort the truth, produce false assurance of salvation, and extend a deceptive hope of godhood (2 Corinthians 4:4).
Joseph Smith, who referred to himself as “The Prophet,” founded the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the mid-1800s. He claimed to have seen a vision of God the Father and God the Son, in which they denounced modern Christianity and appointed Smith to reveal and restore “true” Christianity (Articles of Faith, p. 182–185). Three years later, Smith alleged that the angel Moroni told him about some golden plates on which the Book of Mormon was written. In spite of Smith’s questionable background and proclivity toward bending the truth (see The Origin, Rise, and Progress of Mormonism, New York, 1861; and Mormonism Unveiled, Painesville, Ohio, 1834), many believed Smith, and a new “religion” was born. Today, the members of the Mormon Church number in the millions.
The Book of Mormon is purported to be a new revelation, one that Mormons say is part of the new covenant to Israel and “another witness” to the truth of the Bible (History of the Church 4:461, 8th Article of Faith). Aside from the many theological conflicts with the Bible and historical and archeological fact, the writing of the Book of Mormon was shrouded in mystery and false claims. For example, Joseph Smith and his associates asserted that one Professor Charles Anthon of Columbia University verified the Egyptian characters on the golden plates. However, this same professor wrote a rebuttal letter soon after, saying that he never did any such thing and had, in fact, found the characters to be a hoax. In addition, many verses in the Mormon scriptures have been changed over the years, as the church leaders attempt to cover up something embarrassing in their past and to defend themselves against criticism (see http://mit.irr.org/changes-latter-day-scripture). These facts alone are enough to cast much doubt on the veracity of the Book of Mormon.
One of the many areas in which Mormons fall short of saving faith is their belief that God is merely an exalted man who earned his position by good works (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345). This directly contradicts the Bible, which states that God has existed in His position as God of the universe from eternity past (Revelation 1:8; 1 Timothy 1:17; 6:15–16; Psalm 102:24–27). God was never a man (Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Hosea 11:9) and is the holy and powerful Creator of all things (Genesis 1; Psalm 24:1; Isaiah 37:16). Mormons also believe that they themselves can attain the status of gods in the afterlife through their works here on earth (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345–354). However, no man can ever become like God (1 Samuel 2:2; Isaiah 43:10–11; 44:6; 45:21–22), despite what the serpent told Eve in the garden (Genesis 3:5).
Mormons also believe that Jesus was a god, but not God Himself (Mormon Doctrine, p. 547; Articles of Faith, p. 35; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372). It is essential to Christian faith that Jesus is one with God and that He is God’s only begotten Son who became flesh (John 1:1, 14; John 3:16). Only Jesus’ oneness with God would have allowed Him to live a sinless, blameless life (Hebrews 7:26). And only Jesus Christ was able to pay the price for our sins by His death on the cross (Romans 4:25; Acts 4:12).
Those who follow the Mormon faith also believe that they can attain heaven through works (Doctrine and Covenants 58:42–43; 2 Nephi 9:23–24; Alma 34:30–35; Articles of Faith, p.92). While they claim faith in Christ, they also rely on following the commandments of the Mormon Church (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p 188; Mormon Doctrine, p. 670) and practicing good works (2 Nephi 25:23; Alma 11:37) in order to achieve salvation. The Bible is very clear on this point, stating that good works can never earn the way to heaven (Romans 11:6; Ephesians 2:8–9; Titus 3:5) and that faith in Jesus Christ alone is the only way to salvation (John 10:9; 11:25; 14:6; Acts 4:12). Salvation by grace is incompatible with salvation by human works (Romans 11:6).
Sadly, many in the Mormon Church are unaware of the religion’s shady past, amended scriptures, and even the full doctrine of their church. Many Mormons who have discovered these things have left the church and come to a true saving faith in Jesus Christ. As Christians, we must treat Mormons with love and understand that they are among those deceived by Satan himself (1 Peter 5:8). Satan’s goal is to distort the truth, produce false assurance of salvation, and extend a deceptive hope of godhood (2 Corinthians 4:4).
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
I always thought they were, until my evangelical girlfriend corrected my egregious error.
Her friends hated me, in large part because I wasn't religious (never told them I was atheist though).
Too bad, as we got along really well. But I think we both knew it was doomed from the start.
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Terminalxylem
Footballguy
I don't pretend to be a religious scholar, but LDS seem a lot more like Christians than adherents of other Abrahamic religions.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Well, if you want to get into semantics, or philosophy (@rockaction to the courtesy phone!), we can't really know anything for certain. And it's even more problematic to prove something doesn't exist.
Personally, given the probability of an illusive higher power existing seems sooooooooo infinitesimally low, I'm comfortable rounding down, to 0.
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Captain Cranks
Footballguy
Again, atheism is about belief. Agnosticism is about knowledge. Atheists don't believe there's a god. It's not that they know there's no gods.
I imagine most Christians are atheists with regard to all the other gods man has created over the years. Do they know Vishnu doesn't exist? No. But they probably don't believe he exists.
For the purposes of this poll I put them in the same group. That can be a big thread and discussion as people have lots of opinions and thoughts there. For the sake of this simple poll and trying to keep it condensed, I included it.
Wiki:
I don't have much interest in it but that might be a thread that's interesting for people if they wanted to go there.
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HellToupee
Footballguy
It was 10th grade in the Boston Archdiocese up until 2024 when it was changed to 8th grade. It always annoyed me going to a Catholic HS that I had to go to CCD with the unwashed masses of the public school kids
El Floppo
Footballguy
I completely get your point, but one statement covers all values (and I'd include religion as part of that set of values) and one only covers religion, so not really the same statement.
BlackCrowes
Footballguy
It’s quite e easy actually.
“Do you believe in any gods?”
“No”
“Congrats. You’re an atheist.
Drunken knight
Footballguy
"Father, can you please divide the eucharist into 7 pieces for our party?"
NutterButter
Footballguy
At the very least, the agnostics and atheists should unite to take on the christians. we could rule this message board. we could also try to attract some of the don't care types, but if there's one thing that raising teenagers has told me is that it ain't easy getting people that don't care to care.
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
Not at all. As has been pointed out above, to deny something in that way gives it an existance. I'm what one of my college friends called an apathist. It just doesn't matter at all.
I'm more interested in philosophy. Comparative religions interest me for that reason.
BlackCrowes
Footballguy
It’s literally the definition of the word
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
Not really. I neither believe nor disbelieve. Your definition is limited in that way.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I don't know that it's possible for me to believe in an entity that is god.
By that, I mean I don't know that the finite mind can comprehend the (for all intents and purposes) infinite.
By that, I mean I don't know that the finite mind can comprehend the (for all intents and purposes) infinite.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
What is a theist?
