Self Driving Cars (3 Viewers)

[CletiusMaximus]

I think there are probably dozens of ethical issues involved in FSD tech, but I haven't seen much discussion of the Trolley Problem recently and wonder where that's been addressed and a consensus of some sort reached. In other words, if the self-driving vehicle is put in a situation where it has to avoid a hazard and chose among veering into oncoming traffic, driving off the side of a cliff, or plowing through a group of school children, how does it weigh those options and make that decision? A couple years ago I saw some discussion regarding all the different possible permutations of this. One of the answers is that, regardless of a few odd instances of glitches that may cause negative outcomes due to lack of a human involvement, self-driving vehicles will undoubtedly save many lives overall. Someone posed the question to a Mercedes exec at a car show a while back and his answer was that their self-driving cars would never put the passenger (their customer) at risk. That was a very good and expected half-answer to the question.

 

[Joe Bryant]

The points on the internet have already been scored and a tiny fraction of the people will ever see this but thought it was interesting.

YouTuber Mark Rober Tests Cameras Vs. Lidar And Gets It Wrong​

YouTuber Mark Rober Tests Cameras Vs. Lidar And Gets It Wrong

Mark Rober's tests were pretty artificial and examined Tesla's obsolete driver-assist system, not its prototype self-driving system.

www.forbes.com

 

[Joe Bryant]

More

Mark Rober’s Tesla video was more than a little weird

Mark Rober’s Tesla video was more than a little weird

There were some inconsistencies.

www.theverge.com

 

[Nipsey]

Rode in a Waymo tonight. It was awesome. It was amazing how pinpoint accurate it was and how smooth it drove. Never felt nervous about anything it did even a little bit. Only annoying thing is it apparently has some issues navigating the driveway of the hotel I’m at so we had to hoof it about a block down to grab it and there really wasn’t a sidewalk to walk on to get to it. So that was annoying, but the fridge itself was great.

Waymo is the greatest thing ever. I've taken it about 40-50 times. You can pick your music, sing at the top of your lungs, crank up the AC, belch, whatever you want to do. So much better than Uber. They slightly jacked the prices up out here but still cheaper than Uber and no need to tip.

That sounds amazing. Worst thing about Uber is a chatty driver.

Exactly.

 

[fatness]

In China, the world’s biggest car market, the future looks bleaker still. BYD, Tesla’s largest rival, has 15% of the market, more than triple that of the American carmaker. In February Tesla’s sales in China plunged by 49%, year on year, whereas BYD’s rose by 161%. Tesla’s sluggishness may have in part reflected the fact that Chinese customers were waiting for an upgraded Model Y available from February. But BYD has since gazumped it. On March 18th the Chinese firm unveiled a charging system that it said could power an EV in five minutes, half the time of Tesla’s charging infrastructure. Some pundits described it as the car industry’s “DeepSeek moment”.
BYD has also cast doubt on another part of the Tesla bull case: driverless technology. Tesla’s driver-assistance system, which it exaggeratedly calls full self-driving (FSD), is what others call Level 2 autonomy, meaning that drivers must still keep their hands on the wheel and pay attention. Tesla bulls see advancing to Levels 4 and 5, meaning fully autonomous driving, as the next stage in the firm’s quest to revolutionise transport. Tom Narayan of RBC Capital Markets ascribes almost three-quarters of his projected valuation of Tesla to hopes that it will develop fleets of low-cost robotaxis (without pedals and steering wheels), which would upend the economics of ride-hailing.

Original article: https://www.economist.com/business/2025/03/23/musk-inc-is-under-serious-threat
Archived: https://archive.ph/mPGIh#selection-1395.0-1435.229

 

[MTskibum]

I am not sure who Mark Rober is, but I think FSD will eventually require LIDAR, radar, or something in addition to a camera based system. The author of Joe's forbes article also shares my opinion, but was critical of Mark Rober for using poor tests to try to prove this point.



From the Forbes article Joe linked:

It is odd to find myself so critical. My 2013 “Cameras vs. Lasers” article, while getting long in the tooth, was one of the pioneering articles on this question, and I’ve always come down pretty strongly on the LIDAR side, and I’ve been a very frequent critic of Tesla’s decision to use only vision. Rober had a great chance to show the reality of this, but dropped the ball.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I am not sure who Mark Rober is,

He's an extremely entertaining science/educational youtuber that runs all kinds of whacky experiments and builds all kinds of crazy stuff that kids love.

My kids are obsessed with him which is great because they're actually getting some value out of their screentime instead of tik tok dance vids or whatever. He makes his money by selling a monthly subscription for cool science experiments which we're happy to donate to because it's a win-win. The kids get screen time and think they're getting a special treat in the mail every month but they're learning about gears and mechanics and physics and chemistry.

I've watched my 10 year old explaining to full grown adults how things like LIDAR, RADAR, and satellites work.

As to the test at hand, I agree it would have been much more useful with it being the paid FSD. He did mention a zillion times in the video that he was using Tesla's autopilot (which is the free version) so he wasn't really hiding it, but it might not have been clear to people that aren't familiar with Tesla terminology so he should have made that more clear.

 

[the moops]

I am not sure who Mark Rober is,

He's an extremely entertaining science/educational youtuber that runs all kinds of whacky experiments and builds all kinds of crazy stuff that kids love.

My kids are obsessed with him which is great because they're actually getting some value out of their screentime instead of tik tok dance vids or whatever. He makes his money by selling a monthly subscription for cool science experiments which we're happy to donate to because it's a win-win. The kids get screen time and think they're getting a special treat in the mail every month but they're learning about gears and mechanics and physics and chemistry.

I've watched my 10 year old explaining to full grown adults how things like LIDAR, RADAR, and satellites work.

As to the test at hand, I agree it would have been much useful with it being the paid FSD. He did mention a zillion times in the video that he was using Tesla's autopilot (which is the free version) so he wasn't really hiding it, but it might not have been clear to people that aren't familiar with Tesla terminology so he should have made that more clear.

All this. Mark Rober is great.

 

[Sand]

I am not sure who Mark Rober is, but I think FSD will eventually require LIDAR, radar, or something in addition to a camera based system. The author of Joe's forbes article also shares my opinion, but was critical of Mark Rober for using poor tests to try to prove this point.

Anyone who can setup and deliver a Wile E. Coyote test is on the highest level of awesomeness in my book.

 

[rockaction]

Anyone who can setup and deliver a Wile E. Coyote test is on the highest level of awesomeness in my book.

Meep meep

 

[SWC]

rober is great because he makes science cool and in this day and age of denigrating education he goes the opposite direction and for that i hold him in pretty high regard take that to the bank brohans

 

[CletiusMaximus]

rober is great because he makes science cool and in this day and age of denigrating education he goes the opposite direction and for that i hold him in pretty high regard take that to the bank brohans

He also sets up porch pirates by putting fart gas in packages left on a porch and records the reaction when the fart smell is released from the stolen package and glitter is spraying everywhere and fireworks are going off in the scumbags homes which is the kind of science I think everyone can support.

 

[Desert_Power]

Interesting. I was a little turned off by the FSD vs autopilot thing in the video but will have to check out more of his content.

 

[MTskibum]

I think Waymo and Mercedes Benz are the current leaders in self driving by a large margin.

Everyone else is playing catchup.

After 50 million miles, Waymos crash a lot less than human drivers

Waymo has been in dozens of crashes. Most were not Waymo’s fault.

arstechnica.com

These two incidents produced worse injuries than any other Waymo crash in the last nine months. But in other respects, they were typical Waymo crashes. Most Waymo crashes involve a Waymo vehicle scrupulously following the rules while a human driver flouts them, speeding, running red lights, careening out of their lanes, and so forth.

Waymo’s service will only grow in the coming months and years. So Waymo will inevitably be involved in more crashes—including some crashes that cause serious injuries and even death.

But as this happens, it’s crucial to keep the denominator in mind. Since 2020, Waymo has reported roughly 60 crashes serious enough to trigger an airbag or cause an injury. But those crashes occurred over more than 50 million miles of driverless operations. If you randomly selected 50 million miles of human driving—that’s roughly 70 lifetimes behind the wheel—you would likely see far more serious crashes than Waymo has experienced to date.

 

[BassNBrew]

I think Waymo and Mercedes Benz are the current leaders in self driving by a large margin.

Everyone else is playing catchup.

After 50 million miles, Waymos crash a lot less than human drivers

Waymo has been in dozens of crashes. Most were not Waymo’s fault.

arstechnica.com

These two incidents produced worse injuries than any other Waymo crash in the last nine months. But in other respects, they were typical Waymo crashes. Most Waymo crashes involve a Waymo vehicle scrupulously following the rules while a human driver flouts them, speeding, running red lights, careening out of their lanes, and so forth.

Waymo’s service will only grow in the coming months and years. So Waymo will inevitably be involved in more crashes—including some crashes that cause serious injuries and even death.

But as this happens, it’s crucial to keep the denominator in mind. Since 2020, Waymo has reported roughly 60 crashes serious enough to trigger an airbag or cause an injury. But those crashes occurred over more than 50 million miles of driverless operations. If you randomly selected 50 million miles of human driving—that’s roughly 70 lifetimes behind the wheel—you would likely see far more serious crashes than Waymo has experienced to date.

Well Mercedes level 3 is only good up to 40 mph and select mapped roads in CA based on what I read. Also their cars are slower than a Pinto and behind in range.

 

[MTskibum]

I think Waymo and Mercedes Benz are the current leaders in self driving by a large margin.

Everyone else is playing catchup.

After 50 million miles, Waymos crash a lot less than human drivers

Waymo has been in dozens of crashes. Most were not Waymo’s fault.

arstechnica.com

These two incidents produced worse injuries than any other Waymo crash in the last nine months. But in other respects, they were typical Waymo crashes. Most Waymo crashes involve a Waymo vehicle scrupulously following the rules while a human driver flouts them, speeding, running red lights, careening out of their lanes, and so forth.

Waymo’s service will only grow in the coming months and years. So Waymo will inevitably be involved in more crashes—including some crashes that cause serious injuries and even death.

But as this happens, it’s crucial to keep the denominator in mind. Since 2020, Waymo has reported roughly 60 crashes serious enough to trigger an airbag or cause an injury. But those crashes occurred over more than 50 million miles of driverless operations. If you randomly selected 50 million miles of human driving—that’s roughly 70 lifetimes behind the wheel—you would likely see far more serious crashes than Waymo has experienced to date.

Well Mercedes level 3 is only good up to 40 mph and select mapped roads in CA based on what I read. Also their cars are slower than a Pinto and behind in range.

Nevada and California, but they are expanding. Waymo is only in select markets as well, but both these companies seem to have the better self driving technologies when I read nerdy tech sites.

As for the other issue that is different than self driving technology. I think the reliability and resale value suck too if we are just going to bash Mercedes-benz.

 

[Nipsey]

They're burning a bunch of Waymos out here today.

https://x.com/AnthonyCabassa_/status/1931869711794684210

 

[TripItUp]

They're burning a bunch of Waymos out here today.

https://x.com/AnthonyCabassa_/status/1931869711794684210

stinky bait

 

[Nipsey]

They're burning a bunch of Waymos out here today.

https://x.com/AnthonyCabassa_/status/1931869711794684210

stinky bait

No bait. Just sharing what I saw online. I love Waymo and this is a thread about self-driving cars.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

They're burning a bunch of Waymos out here today.

https://x.com/AnthonyCabassa_/status/1931869711794684210

Link didn’t even work

 

[Alex P Keaton]

I think Waymo and Mercedes Benz are the current leaders in self driving by a large margin.

Everyone else is playing catchup.

After 50 million miles, Waymos crash a lot less than human drivers

Waymo has been in dozens of crashes. Most were not Waymo’s fault.

arstechnica.com

These two incidents produced worse injuries than any other Waymo crash in the last nine months. But in other respects, they were typical Waymo crashes. Most Waymo crashes involve a Waymo vehicle scrupulously following the rules while a human driver flouts them, speeding, running red lights, careening out of their lanes, and so forth.

Waymo’s service will only grow in the coming months and years. So Waymo will inevitably be involved in more crashes—including some crashes that cause serious injuries and even death.

But as this happens, it’s crucial to keep the denominator in mind. Since 2020, Waymo has reported roughly 60 crashes serious enough to trigger an airbag or cause an injury. But those crashes occurred over more than 50 million miles of driverless operations. If you randomly selected 50 million miles of human driving—that’s roughly 70 lifetimes behind the wheel—you would likely see far more serious crashes than Waymo has experienced to date.

Well Mercedes level 3 is only good up to 40 mph and select mapped roads in CA based on what I read. Also their cars are slower than a Pinto and behind in range.

Nevada and California, but they are expanding. Waymo is only in select markets as well, but both these companies seem to have the better self driving technologies when I read nerdy tech sites.

As for the other issue that is different than self driving technology. I think the reliability and resale value suck too if we are just going to bash Mercedes-benz.

Rode in my first Waymo last week while visiting San Fran for work. The pickup was a bit meh — the Waymo stopped a 1/2 block from where the app said it would stop. The ride itself was fine. Safe. Boring. The Waymo stopped for an uncomfortably long time at 4-way stops. It was very confused — and delayed momentarily — by a cyclist and 2 pedestrians. And it was paralyzed by a double parked car on a not-busy street.

I didn’t feel unsafe at any point, but the ride took 5-7 minutes longer than it should have.

My main takeaway was that if Waymo represents the standard for safe driving, then 99.9% of drivers on the road are not very safe.

 

[fatness]

They're burning a bunch of Waymos out here today.

https://x.com/AnthonyCabassa_/status/1931869711794684210

Article from 2 days ago about resistance to Waymo's in Santa Monica:

How LA is waging a guerrilla war against robot taxis

Locals of Santa Monica, CA, say an invasion of beeping cars is a form of torture — and have taken matters into their own hands

www.thetimes.com

Waymo, the self-driving taxi firm owned by Google’s parent company Alphabet, moved two charging station car parks into residential areas this year. The imposition of the cars, which emit an incessant beep as they reverse, has triggered a guerrilla war as fed-up homeowners take matters into their own hands.

Leading the fight is a vigilante who refused to give his name but asked to be referred to as “Stacker One”. His methods include walking at a snail’s pace up the alleyway leading to the charging lot, thereby “stacking” the cars by slowing them to a crawl. Waymo, which passed a milestone of ten million paid rides this year, unsuccessfully sought a restraining order against him after accusing him of harassing company staff. Traffic cones have also been placed in front of the cars to keep them contained.

 

[fatness]

Article from May 15:

Waymo recalls more than 1,200 automated vehicles after minor crashes

The driverless ride-hailing service Waymo issued a recall for 1,212 vehicles after a series of minor crashes involving obstacles in the road.

www.latimes.com

Waymo, the autonomous ride-hailing company that launched its services in Los Angeles late last year, is recalling more than 1,200 vehicles due to a software defect, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said Wednesday. The recall comes after a series of minor crashes with gates, chains and other obstacles in the road that did not result in any injuries, the Mountain View, Calif.-based company said in a filing with the NHTSA. The recall applies to 1,212 driverless vehicles operating on Waymo’s fifth-generation automated driving software.

 

[tommyGunZ]

If Waymo pulls ahead in the self driving car space, Tesla is going implode.

 

[GreenNGold]

If Waymo pulls ahead in the self driving car space, Tesla is going implode.

my understanding is that they are already pretty far ahead

 

[Alex P Keaton]

If Waymo pulls ahead in the self driving car space, Tesla is going implode.

Hopefully

 

[Desert_Power]

They're burning a bunch of Waymos out here today.

https://x.com/AnthonyCabassa_/status/1931869711794684210

Article from 2 days ago about resistance to Waymo's in Santa Monica:

How LA is waging a guerrilla war against robot taxis

Locals of Santa Monica, CA, say an invasion of beeping cars is a form of torture — and have taken matters into their own hands

www.thetimes.com

Waymo, the self-driving taxi firm owned by Google’s parent company Alphabet, moved two charging station car parks into residential areas this year. The imposition of the cars, which emit an incessant beep as they reverse, has triggered a guerrilla war as fed-up homeowners take matters into their own hands.

Leading the fight is a vigilante who refused to give his name but asked to be referred to as “Stacker One”. His methods include walking at a snail’s pace up the alleyway leading to the charging lot, thereby “stacking” the cars by slowing them to a crawl. Waymo, which passed a milestone of ten million paid rides this year, unsuccessfully sought a restraining order against him after accusing him of harassing company staff. Traffic cones have also been placed in front of the cars to keep them contained.

I can see how this type of noise pollution would be seriously annoying.

 

[fatness]

I can see how this type of noise pollution would be seriously annoying.

So can I. Putting a noisy charging station (or any other noisy business) in an existing residential area is a bad idea and certain to piss people off.

 

[CGRdrJoe]

got cut off by a waymo 2 weeks ago in san fran, it's such an empty feeling when you pull along side, honk and flip the bird only to see a completely empty car

 

[foxco]

got cut off by a waymo 2 weeks ago in san fran, it's such an empty feeling when you pull along side, honk and flip the bird only to see a completely empty car

They should put a mannequin in there with his middle finger permanantly raised, just in case...

 

[Brony]

got cut off by a waymo 2 weeks ago in san fran, it's such an empty feeling when you pull along side, honk and flip the bird only to see a completely empty car

They should put a mannequin in there with his middle finger permanantly raised, just in case...

johnny taxi from Total Recall

 

[Brunell4MVP]

My sis in SF uses Waymo to get around town but says it can't even get from Downtown to the airport. And you can only put 2 kids in them. If you try 3 it recognizes it and won't go. So they have to take 2 Waymos, and it can only be used on super short trips.

I love FSD. But much like EVs and their recharge time on trips, there are some hurdles to bring it to the masses.

Frankly seems to me FSD hybrids are where it's at. But don't think anyone is pushing that concept. Maybe, I don't track it much.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

If Waymo pulls ahead in the self driving car space, Tesla is going implode.

my understanding is that they are already pretty far ahead

It's hard to compare because they took two completely different approaches with two completely different strengths/weaknesses. Waymo works much better, but is much less scalable. Tesla's works much worse, but is way more scalable.

Waymo's actual driving ability is significantly better, but it requires these huge expensive camera rigs, and more importantly only works on specific roads that have been mapped out specifically for Waymo. Hence why it is only in two cities currently. You can't just have a Waymo drive on some random road that a google engineer hasn't explicitly mapped out for Waymo to use. That also means problems with new traffic patterns (construction, etc). Manageable manually in two cities who are onboard to report construction to google, not so much in a nationwide scenario where some podunk town would have to tell Google that County Road 348.27 has a new traffic pattern for a week during construction.

Tesla, on the otherhand, has somewhat usable FSD. But there is no way it is anywhere CLOSE to being good enough for approval for driverless use, short of some serious political favors (which may have just walked out the door). On the flipside, if they can get over that last hurdle (easier said than done), that's it. It's done. The whole fleet has it (not just ones that have expensive camera rigs), and it will work everywhere, not just in places specifically mapped out for it.

It will be interesting to see which one works best in the end. I do think Tesla's lack of LIDAR is a huge hurdle to overcome.

 

[dutch]

And we thought we left the Betamax/VHS wars in past.