Succession on HBO (1 Viewer)

[CletiusMaximus]

"I'm the eldest boy!"

Kendall with the absolutely most perfect line to illustrate why he deserves something -- not because he earned it, but because he was born before Shiv and Roman.

He was desperate at that moment and was throwing poop at the wall. I still like him a hell of lot more than Shiv. She was someone I wanted to lose more than anyone. The last season she played the true villain to perfection and Kendall was too stupid to see it. Hell, she already showed disloyalty multiple times. Like @Ghost Rider said earlier, Kendall should have went after Frank instead of taking for granted he had Shiv's vote.

Its pretty hard to do a comparative analysis of the 4 Roy sibling characters as they are all completely unredeemable despicable scumbags throughout the 4 seasons. The writers may have manufactured a few moments of sympathy here and there, but really from season 1 episode 1 through to the end it was a constant flow of 100% unmitigated self-centered stupidity, greed and malevolence from all of the main characters on the show - all the Roys and essentially every side character of any substance who appeared in the show. You have to go down to the level of a Jess or Karolina to find a character with any redeeming qualities.

 

[landrys hat]

Peter doesn't like the knobbies.

 

[Gatorman]

The truth here is that this was a pretty awesome show start to finish. The acting was superb pretty much from everyone involved. This was a show about irredeemable people and the people who glom onto them and they managed to make them all look damaged and in many cases you felt sorry for the,

likely the best thing to show why writers matter during the strike I’d say.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

"I'm the eldest boy!"

Kendall with the absolutely most perfect line to illustrate why he deserves something -- not because he earned it, but because he was born before Shiv and Roman.

And of course, it's not even true

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

In retrospect, Ken probably should have tried to win Frank back over (or one of the other "yes" voters) instead of wasting the last evening before doing a victory lap with his siblings. Trusting that both Roman and Shiv would stick to their guns and support it when push came to shove was his fatal mistake. Shiv had already shown that she was extraordinarily disloyal.

Isn't that what he did in S1, and it ended up costing him when he couldn't make it back to the city in time? I think the point was that Ken was always going to screw this up, no matter what he did

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Great ending. When push came to shove, the kids would sooner have the family empire taken over by outsiders than see one of their siblings "win." So they all lose. Perfect.

Ben Franklin summarized this show 250 years ago: "We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately." Whenever the three siblings united together, they were always much stronger, but they could never keep it up for long enough to achieve their goals

 

[The Dude]

Not sure what Shiv's angle was - she should have just stated directly that she felt the company was worth more now than it would be 6 months from now under Kendall.

Minor gripes - the other shoe never fell from the decision to make an early call on the presidency. That alone should have caused a huge valuation issue if they got it wrong.
Also, not sure why show that mommy's bf had a pitch if there was no payoff.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Also, not sure why show that mommy's bf had a pitch if there was no payoff.

He did the same thing with all the family members, including Logan during the wedding episode.

 

[Ilov80s]

Not sure what Shiv's angle was - she should have just stated directly that she felt the company was worth more now than it would be 6 months from now under Kendall.

Her angle was screwing over Kendall, making a boat load of money and still being the only Roy with a foot in the door at the Waystar. She had every reason to vote yes.

Minor gripes - the other shoe never fell from the decision to make an early call on the presidency. That alone should have caused a huge valuation issue if they got it wrong.
Also, not sure why show that mommy's bf had a pitch if there was no payoff.

Well we don’t know yet if that call will end up being right or wrong. It certainly have Tom juice, maybe the juice he needed to get the CEO job. Daddy’s pitch was purely for humor. Creamy margins.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Minor gripes - the other shoe never fell from the decision to make an early call on the presidency.

They addressed that Wisconsin is still unsettled - bottom line is that doesn't really matter either way at this point.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Tom juice, maybe the juice he needed to get the CEO job

Tom only got the CEO job because he's spineless and doesn't bite that hand that feeds him. He will be nothing more than a "yes man" and that's all Mattson wants.

 

[JohnnyU]

Tom juice, maybe the juice he needed to get the CEO job

Tom only got the CEO job is because he's spineless and doesn't bite that hand that feeds him. He will be nothing more than a "yes man" and that's all Mattison wants.

Yes, as Shiv said, "an empty suit". I'm just glad she lost. I can see a spinoff to this show.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I'm just glad she lost.

She didn't really lose though. She still gets her payout from the acquisition and now her husband is the CEO of Waystar and her son is the heir.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I'm just glad she lost.

She didn't really lose though. She still gets her payout from the acquisition and now her husband is the CEO of Waystar and her son is the heir.

Did Shiv get any sort of payout from the acquisition that the other siblings didn't get?

What is Shiv's son the heir to? He won't inherit Tom's CEO title, and the Roy family no longer has any special control over Waystar. Obviously Shiv's kid will inherit a boatload of money -- the Roys are all still very rich regardless of what happened in the last episode -- but I don't think he's the heir to anything that Kendall's kids aren't.

I don't think anybody "won" anything in the finale. To the degree that Shiv won something, it was just the Pyrrhic victory of seeing Kendall take a loss. She and her kid would have been materially better off by blocking the deal, but family bitterness took priority over self-interest.

 

[JohnnyU]

I'm just glad she lost.

She didn't really lose though. She still gets her payout from the acquisition and now her husband is the CEO of Waystar and her son is the heir.

Did Shiv get any sort of payout from the acquisition that the other siblings didn't get?

What is Shiv's son the heir to? He won't inherit Tom's CEO title, and the Roy family no longer has any special control over Waystar. Obviously Shiv's kid will inherit a boatload of money -- the Roys are all still very rich regardless of what happened in the last episode -- but I don't think he's the heir to anything that Kendall's kids aren't.

I don't think anybody "won" anything in the finale. To the degree that Shiv won something, it was just the Pyrrhic victory of seeing Kendall take a loss. She and her kid would have been materially better off by blocking the deal, but family bitterness took priority over self-interest.

This. Shiv lost in the sense she has absolutely no power and that is what she wanted. Knowing this, she decided to take Kendall down with her out of spite. Again, she couldn't live knowing Kendall won.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

What is Shiv's son the heir to? He won't inherit Tom's CEO title, and the Roy family no longer has any special control over Waystar. Obviously Shiv's kid will inherit a boatload of money -- the Roys are all still very rich regardless of what happened in the last episode -- but I don't think he's the heir to anything that Kendall's kids aren't.

They brought the bloodline up multiple times (including the implication that Kendall's kids aren't really his) - but yes I suppose it's not like a Royal Family where there is a true heir - so maybe that's not a "win".

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Knowing this, she decided to take Kendall down with her out of spite.

I don't think it was pure spite. I think that fact Tom was the one that would be CEO if the acquisition went through was a MAJOR factor in her decision. I mean her last scene in the limo with Tom was very telling in that regard.

 

[JohnnyU]

Knowing this, she decided to take Kendall down with her out of spite.

I don't think it was pure spite. I think that fact Tom was the one that would be CEO if the acquisition went through was a MAJOR factor in her decision. I mean her last scene in the limo with Tom was very telling in that regard.

If the show was continuing Tom wouldn't afford her any power. She is out. It must really eat at her knowing Tom is the CEO and she isn't. Those thinking just because she is married to Tom and has some sort of power, are wrong IMO. She has nothing with regards to power and never will.

 

[thecatch]

I'm just glad she lost.

She didn't really lose though. She still gets her payout from the acquisition and now her husband is the CEO of Waystar and her son is the heir.

Did Shiv get any sort of payout from the acquisition that the other siblings didn't get?

What is Shiv's son the heir to? He won't inherit Tom's CEO title, and the Roy family no longer has any special control over Waystar. Obviously Shiv's kid will inherit a boatload of money -- the Roys are all still very rich regardless of what happened in the last episode -- but I don't think he's the heir to anything that Kendall's kids aren't.

I don't think anybody "won" anything in the finale. To the degree that Shiv won something, it was just the Pyrrhic victory of seeing Kendall take a loss. She and her kid would have been materially better off by blocking the deal, but family bitterness took priority over self-interest.

I don't think so - Kendall would have run the company into the ground (as she recognized) and Shiv maximized her family's financial well being by selling high.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Those thinking just because she is married to Tom and has some sort of power, are wrong

No one said it was about her power within Waystar - it's about the money and relevance in high society circles (she's still in the game) - she's "holding her nose", while accepting that this is still a good result for her. I guess you didn't pay much attention at the end.

 

[thecatch]

Those thinking just because she is married to Tom and has some sort of power, are wrong

No one said it was about her power within Waystar - it's about the money and relevance in high society circles (she's still in the game) - she's "holding her nose", while accepting that this is still a good result for her.

Right, her proximity to power makes her extremely relevant going forward. That's the value she brought to the table for Mattson in the first place, even if she ultimately wasn't able to spin that value into the CEO job like she wanted.

 

[Chaz McNulty]

I'm just glad she lost.

She didn't really lose though. She still gets her payout from the acquisition and now her husband is the CEO of Waystar and her son is the heir.

I think you are mixing up the CEO of a company with the actual owner of a company.

I think Shiv may have lost nearly as much as Kendal. Could you imagine her living with Tom and having that relationship be completely the opposite of how it has been since they were married. Shiv had all the power and now she is completely marginalized. Tom is now the man.

 

[JohnnyU]

Those thinking just because she is married to Tom and has some sort of power, are wrong

No one said it was about her power within Waystar - it's about the money and relevance in high society circles (she's still in the game) - she's "holding her nose", while accepting that this is still a good result for her. I guess you didn't pay much attention at the end.

I disagree. It was always about the power and her jealousy and spite for Kendall. In the end she knew she wouldn't have any power and damn sure wasn't going to allow Kendall to have it.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

In the end she knew she wouldn't have any power and damn sure wasn't going to allow Kendall to have it.

But in that scenario she would have maintained some power then -Kendall offered her Tom's position as head of the news divisions.

 

[JohnnyU]

In the end she knew she wouldn't have any power and damn sure wasn't going to allow Kendall to have it.

But in that scenario she would have maintained some power then -Kendall offered her Tom's position as head of the news divisions.

....thus the second part of what I said about her spite towards Kendall. She couldn't stomach him winning and being over her.

 

[Don Quixote]

Is Nan Pierce still waiting for the kids to pay her the $10 billion?

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I think you are mixing up the CEO of a company with the actual owner of a company

It's publicly traded company - but yes I was wrong to say their son was any kind of heir to the CEO position.

I think Shiv may have lost nearly as much as Kendal.

Yes, the dynamic has changed - which was another "point' of the limo scene, but she's accepted that and is far ahead of Kendall really - who is likely going to turn back to drugs and live his life as a failure and loser (albeit a very rich one).

I don't think Shiv wins by any means, just that her "loss" was a little more calculated.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Minor gripes - the other shoe never fell from the decision to make an early call on the presidency.

They addressed that Wisconsin is still unsettled - bottom line is that doesn't really matter either way at this point.

Right. The only reason to even bring it up is to send the message that it doesn't really matter. The winner of the Mattson/Roy fight is far more important than the winner of the presidential election, because those are the people who will have the real power.

I don't totally agree with that idea, but I think it's pretty clear that the writers do

 

[shuke]

I'm just glad she lost.

She didn't really lose though. She still gets her payout from the acquisition and now her husband is the CEO of Waystar and her son is the heir.

But in her mind she lost, and probably realized she'll never really win in this particular male-dominated company.

 

[Chaz McNulty]

In the end she knew she wouldn't have any power and damn sure wasn't going to allow Kendall to have it.

But in that scenario she would have maintained some power then -Kendall offered her Tom's position as head of the news divisions.

I think Shiv saw how much her power had diminished when the brother's were co-CEO's. This is where Kendal really failed. He shouldn't have been having meetings without her and made sure she was in the loop on everything.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I think Romulus was just relieved to have everything over with and to be out of the game. When his dad was alive, he did not want to be a disappointment so tried to play the game, but never really wanted to step into adulthood. He's "happy" to spend his life as a very wealthy drunken man-child.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

I'm just glad she lost.

She didn't really lose though. She still gets her payout from the acquisition and now her husband is the CEO of Waystar and her son is the heir.

I think you are mixing up the CEO of a company with the actual owner of a company.

I think Shiv may have lost nearly as much as Kendal. Could you imagine her living with Tom and having that relationship be completely the opposite of how it has been since they were married. Shiv had all the power and now she is completely marginalized. Tom is now the man.

Am I wrong in thinking Matsson essentially told Tom he'd probably be banging Shiv in the future? Did I misinterpret those comments at their lunch meeting? Tom is hardly "the Man" either in his marriage or his professional life.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Is Nan Pierce still waiting for the kids to pay her the $10 billion?

One regular theme for these writers over the 4 seasons is they had no problem creating major plot lines out of thin air one week, then completely dropping them, unresolved, never to be heard of again. The Pierce acquisition plotline dominated an entire episode and could have been really interesting, but I believe was completely dropped as though it never happened. Same with the "Living+" episode. They seemed to create a major plot crisis out of nowhere, devoted an entire episode to the Living+ storyline with Kendall potentially committing criminal fraud, etc. just a few episodes from the end, then never referenced it again except maybe in passing.

 

[JohnnyU]

Is Nan Pierce still waiting for the kids to pay her the $10 billion?

One regular theme for these writers over the 4 seasons is they had no problem creating major plot lines out of thin air one week, then completely dropping them, unresolved, never to be heard of again. The Pierce acquisition plotline dominated an entire episode and could have been really interesting, but I believe was completely dropped as though it never happened. Same with the "Living+" episode. They seemed to create a major plot crisis out of nowhere, devoted an entire episode to the Living+ storyline with Kendall potentially committing criminal fraud, etc. just a few episodes from the end, then never referenced it again except maybe in passing.

I thought about that too. Definitely bad look for the writers of the show.

 

[JohnnyU]

I think Romulus was just relieved to have everything over with and to be out of the game. When his dad was alive, he did not want to be a disappointment so tried to play the game, but never really wanted to step into adulthood. He's "happy" to spend his life as a very wealthy drunken man-child.

Good thing because he made no sense whenever he spoke....most of the time. It seems like he couldn't string a coherent sentence together. I hated the cryptic speech from most the characters.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I'm just glad she lost.

She didn't really lose though. She still gets her payout from the acquisition and now her husband is the CEO of Waystar and her son is the heir.

I think you are mixing up the CEO of a company with the actual owner of a company.

I think Shiv may have lost nearly as much as Kendal. Could you imagine her living with Tom and having that relationship be completely the opposite of how it has been since they were married. Shiv had all the power and now she is completely marginalized. Tom is now the man.

Am I wrong in thinking Matsson essentially told Tom he'd probably be banging Shiv in the future? Did I misinterpret those comments at their lunch meeting? Tom is hardly "the Man" either in his marriage or his professional life.

I took that as Matsson pushing Tom to see just how compliant he would be -- Tom just sat there and nodded politely when Mattson mentioned how much he wanted to bang his wife, which amounted to a successful job interview. Now, Mattson may very well bang Shiv later on, but my interpretation of this scene was Mattson confirming that Tom would do as he's told.

 

[JohnnyU]

I'm just glad she lost.

She didn't really lose though. She still gets her payout from the acquisition and now her husband is the CEO of Waystar and her son is the heir.

I think you are mixing up the CEO of a company with the actual owner of a company.

I think Shiv may have lost nearly as much as Kendal. Could you imagine her living with Tom and having that relationship be completely the opposite of how it has been since they were married. Shiv had all the power and now she is completely marginalized. Tom is now the man.

Am I wrong in thinking Matsson essentially told Tom he'd probably be banging Shiv in the future? Did I misinterpret those comments at their lunch meeting? Tom is hardly "the Man" either in his marriage or his professional life.

I took that as Matsson pushing Tom to see just how compliant he would be -- Tom just sat there and nodded politely when Mattson mentioned how much he wanted to bang his wife, which amounted to a successful job interview. Now, Mattson may very well bang Shiv later on, but my interpretation of this scene was Mattson confirming that Tom would do as he's told.

Yes, Tom played that as cool as a cucumber. Shiv needs to have some work on those eyelids. They look rough,

 

[The Dude]

IMO, I think the spite on Kendall is over stated. It was a financial/power decision predominantly.

 

[JohnnyU]

IMO, I think the spite on Kendall is over stated. It was a financial/power decision predominantly.

You mean, not to give Kendall power? Because the rest of the siblings sure didn't end up with any. As for financial, they are all billionaires anyway, but did stand to gain more by selling out. I think you're underestimating the spite Shiv had for Kendall, not wanting him to win.

 

[Gatorman]

I'm just glad she lost.

She didn't really lose though. She still gets her payout from the acquisition and now her husband is the CEO of Waystar and her son is the heir.

I think you are mixing up the CEO of a company with the actual owner of a company.

I think Shiv may have lost nearly as much as Kendal. Could you imagine her living with Tom and having that relationship be completely the opposite of how it has been since they were married. Shiv had all the power and now she is completely marginalized. Tom is now the man.

Am I wrong in thinking Matsson essentially told Tom he'd probably be banging Shiv in the future? Did I misinterpret those comments at their lunch meeting? Tom is hardly "the Man" either in his marriage or his professional life.

I took that as Matsson pushing Tom to see just how compliant he would be -- Tom just sat there and nodded politely when Mattson mentioned how much he wanted to bang his wife, which amounted to a successful job interview. Now, Mattson may very well bang Shiv later on, but my interpretation of this scene was Mattson confirming that Tom would do as he's told.

Yep, or at that point he didn't care.

With a TV show it is the writers who "know" the details, but when it got to 6 to 6 and Shiv was the deciding vote it was: Uncertainty and her brother runs things, or Uncertainty, a large check, and her still husband runs things?

So now you can go with the "emotional chick" angle or with the "Calculating witch" angle. Take you pick,

Emotional: well, she made the pitch to Tom about getting back together.Now that she has capitulated to him, maybe that brings them back together (and depending on how the hand hold at the end is interpreted). On top of that, her whole arc after daddy died was that she loved him as daddy even though she hated him as CEO of WaystarRoyco. Tom becomes Daddy in this case.

Calculating witch: I cannot control Kendall, but with his child in my belly and Matteson wanting to screw me, I can still have a measure of control.

pretty interesting interpretations.

 

[Sammy3469]

I'm just glad she lost.

She didn't really lose though. She still gets her payout from the acquisition and now her husband is the CEO of Waystar and her son is the heir.

But in her mind she lost, and probably realized she'll never really win in this particular male-dominated company.

Yup and she realized Tom is the only male in her life who knows how to navigate this world successfully and that he doesn’t have the stomach to lie to her. That at least gives her some power or at least more power than giving into Kendall and following that sinking ship.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I think you're underestimating the spite Shiv had for Kendall

I think you miss some of the subtlety in the situation and see it purely as black and white, so you miss the grey. It wasn't a total spite decision - if that's the case she wouldn't have agreed to Kendall as CEO to begin with. There was calculation involved. At that point she had the rug pulled out from under her by Mattson and had to decide which was the less onerous result. Obviously we won't ever really know the answer but to me, if some outsider was going to be brought in as the new CEO, she would have voted "no" (and that would have been partially to spite Mattson) - with Tom in charge she keeps the wealth and status that she's always enjoyed.

 

[JohnnyU]

I think you're underestimating the spite Shiv had for Kendall

I think you miss some of the subtlety in the situation and see it purely as black and white, so you miss the grey. It wasn't a total spite decision - if that's the case she wouldn't have agreed to Kendall as CEO to begin with. There was calculation involved. At that point she had the rug pulled out from her by Mattson and had to decide which was the less onerous result. Obviously we won't ever really know the answer but to me, if some outsider was going to be brought in as the new CEO, she would have voted "no" (and that would have been partially to spite Mattson) - with Tom in charge she keeps the wealth and status that she's always enjoyed.

Yes, she keeps the status she’s always had, which doesn’t include her making any important decisions. I’m sure she hates that the “empty suit” got what she coveted, but better Tom than Kendall in her mind.

 

[dkp993]

her husband is the CEO of Waystar and her son is the heir.

Any thought that Tom doesn’t get canned within the first few years is a misread of the situation imo. There is zero loyalty from Mattson side and he will move on from Tom as soon as it fits him. Yes Tom would likely get a juicy pay out, but as been said before, this family is already generationally wealthy.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Any thought that Tom doesn’t get canned within the first few years is a misread of the situation imo.

That's fair and likely accurate but being named CEO of a huge conglomerate like Waystar will open doors for him down the road, whether deserved or not. He's part of the old boy network now.

 

[Brew Swillis]

Tom "stickering" Greg was my favorite moment of the episode.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Is Nan Pierce still waiting for the kids to pay her the $10 billion?

One regular theme for these writers over the 4 seasons is they had no problem creating major plot lines out of thin air one week, then completely dropping them, unresolved, never to be heard of again. The Pierce acquisition plotline dominated an entire episode and could have been really interesting, but I believe was completely dropped as though it never happened. Same with the "Living+" episode. They seemed to create a major plot crisis out of nowhere, devoted an entire episode to the Living+ storyline with Kendall potentially committing criminal fraud, etc. just a few episodes from the end, then never referenced it again except maybe in passing.

Possible, but also possible that was a comment on the siblings' attention span. They're all in on The 100 or whatever that startup was called, but then they have a chance to buy Pierce, until their dad dies and they have a chance to gain control of Waystar Royco. And Living+ was only meant to juice the stock price in order to kill the Mattson deal. None of the underlying businesses actually mattered to the sibs. All of them -- dating all the way back to Vaulter in the series premiere -- were just means to an end

 

[shuke]

I don't think Shiv thinks she has any "power", because she doesn't. Tom is a puppet with no power himself, and she knows this. The look on her face in the limo was pure defeat.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Any thought that Tom doesn’t get canned within the first few years is a misread of the situation imo.

That's fair and likely accurate but being named CEO of a huge conglomerate like Waystar will open doors for him down the road, whether deserved or not. He's part of the old boy network now.

Agree with both of you. Whatever else happens, all of Tom's striving has paid off and he's "made it". He only got the job by being an unbelievable suckup, and his marriage is a total sham, but he still arrived at the top of the greasy pole

 

[dkp993]

Any thought that Tom doesn’t get canned within the first few years is a misread of the situation imo.

That's fair and likely accurate but being named CEO of a huge conglomerate like Waystar will open doors for him down the road, whether deserved or not. He's part of the old boy network now.

No doubt.