The Death/Loss Of Religion In America (1 Viewer)

[Dr_Zaius]

I love the focus on becoming more compassionate. It's that horrible, good-for-nothing Samaritan who showed compassion for the nearly dead man. Compassion is important to turning things around.

The prodigal son parable is similar. When you read or hear it it's hard not to sympathize with the "good" son when he's ticked off about his good-for-nothing brother being thrown a huge party after he's basically spent his entire inheritance on prostitutes.

Edited

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I love the focus on becoming more compassionate. It's that horrible, good-for-nothing Samaritan who showed compassion for the nearly dead man. Compassion is important to turning things around.

The prodigal son parable is similar. When you read or hear it it's hard not to sympathize with the "good" son when he's ticked off about his good-for-nothing brother being thrown a huge party after he's basically spent his entire inheritance on prostitutes.

And that one parable where all the workers show up at different times throughout the day but all get paid the same regardless, and the people who were there first get ticked off about it.

 

[AAABatteries]

This is an important point that people don't want to hear: just because you don't molest kids or rob elderly people on the street doesn't mean you are a good person. The bar is much higher than that. Impossibly high, actually.

I think the issue many non-religious people have is the idea that a child molester can molest children for his entire life and then accept religion at the last minute and spend eternity in paradise while the theoretical most philanthropic person on the planet can spend eternity in hell. It’s rather absurd.

 

[massraider]

I think the issue many non-religious people have is the idea that a child molester can molest children for his entire life and then accept religion at the last minute

Correction:

They have to accept this one certain religion over here.

 

[Captain Cranks]

They have to accept this one certain religion over here.

That's the big turn-off for me. Going back to the excited to share it premise, if it were "I know there are a ton of cool ideas about how to live a good life and be a better person, here's one that works for me," that's something I could support. Instead it's, "this is the only one. All the others are wrong and if you follow them you are turning away from God." Uhhh, hard pass.

 

[massraider]

"I know there are a ton of cool ideas about how to live a good life and be a better person, here's one that works for me," that's something I could support

There are absolutely people out there doing this. Someone asked about spiritual vs religious earlier, this is one of the differences.

I have come across a bunch of them, and I find a LOT of the spiritual types a lil cringey and maybe a teeny bit silly, but it all seems very positive for them, and that is more than enough for me to think they should keep on keepin on.

 

[Joe Bryant]

That's the big turn-off for me. Going back to the excited to share it premise, if it were "I know there are a ton of cool ideas about how to live a good life and be a better person, here's one that works for me," that's something I could support.

For most folks I know that are effective in sharing their Christian faith, that's how they do it.

The church word for talking about your faith is "witness". I always thought that was a good word as a witness tells what they experienced and what happened.

I have a good friend and highly educated pastor and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven is he says, "We'll see".

Bottom line, I think a "this is what works for me" approach to evangelism is way better than a "that won't work for you" message.

 

[Steeler]

Now, I absolutely believe that God allows all people back on the path if they so choose. That's repentance, a return to where you belong. And I can understand if that's something that also leads you to not think a god like that is worth your time. Because that says a child molester has the same opportunity as someone who tells a lie to repent and get back on the path doing the work of God. And I think that's something that is so incredibly radical about God and makes even the most faithful squirm a bit.

This is an important point that people don't want to hear: just because you don't molest kids or rob elderly people on the street doesn't mean you are a good person. The bar is much higher than that. Impossibly high, actually.

I think the issue many non-religious people have is the idea that a child molester can molest children for his entire life and then accept religion at the last minute and spend eternity in paradise while the theoretical most philanthropic person on the planet can spend eternity in hell. It’s rather absurd.

It's not an incantation or some type of spell you can just verbalize. You have to truly be repentant.

 

[Steeler]

I love the focus on becoming more compassionate. It's that horrible, good-for-nothing Samaritan who showed compassion for the nearly dead man. Compassion is important to turning things around.

The prodigal son parable is similar. When you read or hear it it's hard not to sympathize with the "good" son when he's ticked off about his good-for-nothing brother being thrown a huge party after he's basically spent his entire inheritance on prostitutes.

And that one parable where all the workers show up at different times throughout the day but all get paid the same regardless, and the people who were there first get ticked off about it.

I was just going to mention this as it was the Gospel reading this weekend in the Catholic Church. I also think it can be applied to the child molester vs lying conversation - at the end of the parable the land owner says to the people who worked all day something like "I am not being unfair to you... why can't I be generous with my money?". If a child molester truly repents at the end of their life, why should I, as a believer, be upset? I'm still (hopefully) getting the full reward I have earned.

 

[Captain Cranks]

I have a good friend and highly educated pastor and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven is he says, "We'll see".

It's not written in the New Testament that way, right? I'm thinking verses like John 14:6 are pretty clear in this regard: The way to Heaven is only through Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone.

 

[Captain Cranks]

There are absolutely people out there doing this. Someone asked about spiritual vs religious earlier, this is one of the differences.

I have come across a bunch of them, and I find a LOT of the spiritual types a lil cringey and maybe a teeny bit silly, but it all seems very positive for them, and that is more than enough for me to think they should keep on keepin on.

When I was my most "spiritual", I was reading a lot about Buddhism and doing daily meditations. It did make me feel better and compelled me to buy my favorite Buddhist book to give to a couple of friends. Hopefully I wasn't cringy.

 

[massraider]

Hopefully I wasn't cringy

Dis you?

 

[dgreen]

I love the focus on becoming more compassionate. It's that horrible, good-for-nothing Samaritan who showed compassion for the nearly dead man. Compassion is important to turning things around.

The prodigal son parable is similar. When you read or hear it it's hard not to sympathize with the "good" son when he's ticked off about his good-for-nothing brother being thrown a huge party after he's basically spent his entire inheritance on prostitutes.

And that one parable where all the workers show up at different times throughout the day but all get paid the same regardless, and the people who were there first get ticked off about it.

I was just going to mention this as it was the Gospel reading this weekend in the Catholic Church. I also think it can be applied to the child molester vs lying conversation - at the end of the parable the land owner says to the people who worked all day something like "I am not being unfair to you... why can't I be generous with my money?". If a child molester truly repents at the end of their life, why should I, as a believer, be upset? I'm still (hopefully) getting the full reward I have earned.

Here's a similar rabbinic parable:

And Solomon says before God that a king who hires workers and they do their job well, he should pay them their due wages, and this is considered a great virtue. When is the king praised? When he hires wicked workers who do not do their job well and still pays them their wages, and this is a great act of kindness.

Another translation:

Solomon said to the Holy One blessed be He: Master of the Universe! When a king hires good laborers who perform their work well and he pays them their wages - what praise does he merit? When does he merit praise? When he hires lazy laborers but still pays them their full wage!

Paying the good workers is presented as standard stuff that all kings do. When the king pays the bad workers their full pay, that's what's really worthy of praise. It's as if we shouldn't just be ok with "those people" also receiving their wages, we should praise God for it. We should be rooting for them. That's hard.

What if that's what the world was mad at us about? Instead of rightly being mad at us for a lack compassion to certain groups, what if the world was mad at us for having compassion for the groups of people that even society doesn't think are worthy?

 

[Joe Bryant]

I have a good friend and highly educated pastor and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven is he says, "We'll see".

It's not written in the New Testament that way, right? I'm thinking verses like John 14:6 are pretty clear in this regard: The way to Heaven is only through Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone.

Correct. John 14: 5-6 says

5 “No, we don’t know, Lord,” Thomas said. “We have no idea where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is.[c] From now on, you do know him and have seen him!”

I've just never let this be a big stumbling block for me. I think Jesus is the way. So that's how I operate. So my take on it is as you said earlier. "I know there are a ton of cool ideas about how to live a good life and be a better person, here's one that works for me." And that's my focus.

If someone were to ask, "Well what about this other non-Christian religion?" My answer is, "I know what works for me. And I think Jesus was right when he said he was the way".

And then I'm like my pastor friend and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven when he says, "We'll see".

 

[Captain Cranks]

Dis you?

Yes although not quite as hot.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Hopefully I wasn't cringy.

I doubt you were. I'm pretty open about my faith. I know lots of people don't agree with me. But I've found if you try to be empathetic about things and understand not everyone sees it like you, most people are totally understanding.

We had a regular dinner thing at my house several years ago. We normally pray before dinner at this thing. I had a friend who is an Atheist that was visiting and not part of the normal group and we prayed as normal. The next day I started to wonder if I'd made that uncomfortable for him. I texted him and I apologized for not asking him first and said that I hoped I hadn't made it uncomfortable.

He replied, "I would have been uncomfortable if you had NOT prayed. I know that's how you roll."

 

[Captain Cranks]

I doubt you were. I'm pretty open about my faith. I know lots of people don't agree with me. But I've found if you try to be empathetic about things and understand not everyone sees it like you, most people are totally understanding.

You definitely walk the walk and are among the Christians I've met who do it right, imo.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I doubt you were. I'm pretty open about my faith. I know lots of people don't agree with me. But I've found if you try to be empathetic about things and understand not everyone sees it like you, most people are totally understanding.

You definitely walk the walk and are among the Christians I've met who does it right, imo.

Thank you GB. You're kind. I definitely screw it up regularly and get plenty wrong too.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

What if that's what the world was mad at us about? Instead of rightly being mad at us for a lack compassion to certain groups, what if the world was mad at us for having compassion for the groups of people that even society doesn't think are worthy?

Human beings have a very deep need to feel superior to others. You don't have to look far to find examples of this -- you see it in the church all the time, unfortunately. We've talked in this thread about churches that get too political, churches that run afoul of science, etc. Those are real and problematic, but they're not typical of your ordinary congregation. What exists in every church though is a contingent of people who show up on Sunday so they can look down on those sinners over there.

Now I'm not saying that describes anybody in this thread, or that it describes the median church-goer, but we've all met people like that, and I'll bet our respective pastors spend a disproportionate amount of sermon-time talking specifically to that person. My favorite pastors have always been the ones who were quick to emphasize that we should totally see ourselves as characters in Bible stories. Specifically, we're the workers who were complaining about the other people getting a whole silver coin when they barely worked at all. We're the "good son" who gets pissed at his dad for throwing a big party for the deadbeat son. We're the people picking up rocks to stone the adulteress with. We're the Pharisees. We're the disciples when the disciples are being stupid, as they often are in the gospels. Seriously. All of those stories are addressed to us, the church-goers. We need that. "The church is here for sinners, and by sinners we mean those of you sitting here in the pews with us today" is a very powerful message, because it completely erases the distinction between "good people" and "bad people" that all of us naturally want to draw.

This is an elliptical way of saying that I think that in your way of putting it, it's not either-or but both-and. Jesus got in trouble in part because he was too compassionate toward prostitutes, tax collectors, and lepers, all of whom were super-unpopular back in first century Palestine. (Notably, Jesus never said that prostitution was fine -- prostitution is unambiguously condemned throughout the Bible, so this is a nice clean example of how we're supposed to treat sinners, which again includes all of us). I'm always taken aback when I encounter people who argue, as some have in this thread, that they want certain people to be condemned and reject the idea of forgiveness for certain sins, but we have to remember that that is a normal human emotion and we should work on that in our community before we worry too much about the non-believers.

On the other hand, I think it's pretty obvious that most people are telling the truth when they say that they find the church to judgey and too self-righteous. Most of us are Gen Xers. When we were growing up, it was Christian fundamentalists who were getting all upset about KISS (Kids in Satan's Service) and AC/DC (Anti-Christ Devil Cult) and Dungeons & Dragons and Halloween haunted houses and all sort of other stuff that made them look like fuddy-duddys. The more politically-inclined will point to Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson as well. That's the cultural reference point for our generation. You and I weren't responsible for that, but we inherited the legacy. Our job is to not create a similar legacy that our grandchildren will have to explain away.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Human beings have a very deep need to feel superior to others. You don't have to look far to find examples of this -- you see it in the church all the time, unfortunately. We've talked in this thread about churches that get too political, churches that run afoul of science, etc. Those are real and problematic, but they're not typical of your ordinary congregation. What exists in every church though is a contingent of people who show up on Sunday so they can look down on those sinners over there.

Now I'm not saying that describes anybody in this thread, or that it describes the median church-goer, but we've all met people like that, and I'll bet our respective pastors spend a disproportionate amount of sermon-time talking specifically to that person. My favorite pastors have always been the ones who were quick to emphasize that we should totally see ourselves as characters in Bible stories. Specifically, we're the workers who were complaining about the other people getting a whole silver coin when they barely worked at all. We're the "good son" who gets pissed at his dad for throwing a big party for the deadbeat son. We're the people picking up rocks to stone the adulteress with. We're the Pharisees. We're the disciples when the disciples are being stupid, as they often are in the gospels. Seriously. All of those stories are addressed to us, the church-goers. We need that. "The church is here for sinners, and by sinners we mean those of you sitting here in the pews with us today" is a very powerful message, because it completely erases the distinction between "good people" and "bad people" that all of us naturally want to draw.

This is an elliptical way of saying that I think that in your way of putting it, it's not either-or but both-and. Jesus got in trouble in part because he was too compassionate toward prostitutes, tax collectors, and lepers, all of whom were super-unpopular back in first century Palestine. (Notably, Jesus never said that prostitution was fine -- prostitution is unambiguously condemned throughout the Bible, so this is a nice clean example of how we're supposed to treat sinners, which again includes all of us). I'm always taken aback when I encounter people who argue, as some have in this thread, that they want certain people to be condemned and reject the idea of forgiveness for certain sins, but we have to remember that that is a normal human emotion and we should work on that in our community before we worry too much about the non-believers.

On the other hand, I think it's pretty obvious that most people are telling the truth when they say that they find the church to judgey and too self-righteous. Most of us are Gen Xers. When we were growing up, it was Christian fundamentalists who were getting all upset about KISS (Kids in Satan's Service) and AC/DC (Anti-Christ Devil Cult) and Dungeons & Dragons and Halloween haunted houses and all sort of other stuff that made them look like fuddy-duddys. The more politically-inclined will point to Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson as well. That's the cultural reference point for our generation. You and I weren't responsible for that, but we inherited the legacy. Our job is to not create a similar legacy that our grandchildren will have to explain away.

Preach.

 

[AAABatteries]

I have a good friend and highly educated pastor and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven is he says, "We'll see".

It's not written in the New Testament that way, right? I'm thinking verses like John 14:6 are pretty clear in this regard: The way to Heaven is only through Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone.

Correct. John 14: 5-6 says

5 “No, we don’t know, Lord,” Thomas said. “We have no idea where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is.[c] From now on, you do know him and have seen him!”

I've just never let this be a big stumbling block for me. I think Jesus is the way. So that's how I operate. So my take on it is as you said earlier. "I know there are a ton of cool ideas about how to live a good life and be a better person, here's one that works for me." And that's my focus.

If someone were to ask, "Well what about this other non-Christian religion?" My answer is, "I know what works for me. And I think Jesus was right when he said he was the way".

And then I'm like my pastor friend and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven when he says, "We'll see".

This is great and admirable and I truly mean that because I think that’s what life is all about but I know many church people who would say you are watering down the gospel. The ultimate goal of the Christian life isn’t to live a good life and be a better person - or else it would be salvation by works. It’s to have a relationship with Christ and if you don’t it doesn’t matter what works for you or others or how good a person you are - if you don’t have that relationship scripture says you will spend eternity separated from God in hell.

We’ve talked about my church before - Andy Stanley’s - he gets A LOT of grief from SBC types that he’s trying to get people to be good people and live happy lives. And that he ignores the gospel.

 

[Joe Bryant]

This is great and admirable and I truly mean that because I think that’s what life is all about but I know many church people who would say you are watering down the gospel. The ultimate goal of the Christian life isn’t to live a good life and be a better person - or else it would be salvation by works. It’s to have a relationship with Christ and if you don’t it doesn’t matter what works for you or others or how good a person you are - if you don’t have that relationship scripture says you will spend eternity separated from God in hell.

We’ve talked about my church before - Andy Stanley’s - he gets A LOT of grief from SBC types that he’s trying to get people to be good people and live happy lives. And that he ignores the gospel.

You're not wrong there that some would say I'm watering it down. I don't think I am. But there will be folks on lots of sides that don't agree with me. I have to be ok with that.

I don't think I'm (and certainly not Andy Stanley) ignoring the gospel. I know you don't think that either. I hope we're spreading it. But I also have to be confident enough in myself that I can do it and not let folks who don't completely agree with me be a detriment.

In some ways, it's like how I've tried to operate Footballguys. Lots of people think we do things wrong. Lots of people think we don't run our forums the right way. I've been pretty consistent over the years saying I'm not certain I'm doing it the perfectly right way. But we've picked a way that we think is right and we'll do our best to do it that way.

 

[UncleZen]

Hopefully I wasn't cringy.

I doubt you were. I'm pretty open about my faith. I know lots of people don't agree with me. But I've found if you try to be empathetic about things and understand not everyone sees it like you, most people are totally understanding.

We had a regular dinner thing at my house several years ago. We normally pray before dinner at this thing. I had a friend who is an Atheist that was visiting and not part of the normal group and we prayed as normal. The next day I started to wonder if I'd made that uncomfortable for him. I texted him and I apologized for not asking him first and said that I hoped I hadn't made it uncomfortable.

He replied, "I would have been uncomfortable if you had NOT prayed. I know that's how you roll."

That's how it should be. I am a non believer but when people around me pray, I just bow my head and give them their time. I don't have a problem with what anyone believes or doesn't. I'm am happy that believing in God brings many people comfort.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Just wanted to say this thread has been an enjoyable read with some informative and respectful back and forth.

I am a little embarrassed to admit I have typed then deleted without submitting a half dozen snarky posts. Trying hard to be a better listener.

Thank you GB. I too have been super pleased with the good discussion. Thank you.

 

[dgreen]

I have a good friend and highly educated pastor and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven is he says, "We'll see".

It's not written in the New Testament that way, right? I'm thinking verses like John 14:6 are pretty clear in this regard: The way to Heaven is only through Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone.

Correct. John 14: 5-6 says

5 “No, we don’t know, Lord,” Thomas said. “We have no idea where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is.[c] From now on, you do know him and have seen him!”

I've just never let this be a big stumbling block for me. I think Jesus is the way. So that's how I operate. So my take on it is as you said earlier. "I know there are a ton of cool ideas about how to live a good life and be a better person, here's one that works for me." And that's my focus.

If someone were to ask, "Well what about this other non-Christian religion?" My answer is, "I know what works for me. And I think Jesus was right when he said he was the way".

And then I'm like my pastor friend and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven when he says, "We'll see".

This is great and admirable and I truly mean that because I think that’s what life is all about but I know many church people who would say you are watering down the gospel. The ultimate goal of the Christian life isn’t to live a good life and be a better person - or else it would be salvation by works. It’s to have a relationship with Christ and if you don’t it doesn’t matter what works for you or others or how good a person you are - if you don’t have that relationship scripture says you will spend eternity separated from God in hell.

We’ve talked about my church before - Andy Stanley’s - he gets A LOT of grief from SBC types that he’s trying to get people to be good people and live happy lives. And that he ignores the gospel.

I am becoming more and more convinced that we have a major Biblical literacy problem. I'm not putting myself out there as some expert; I've really only been on a serious learning journey for a few years now and it's a never-ending journey with so many different paths to explore. But, the more I learn, the more I think we are way off track in so many areas of understanding the Bible, which means misunderstanding who God is and what he cares about. This journey has been eye opening and I finally actually love the Bible for the first time in my life.

I mention this in response to your post because you mentioned "gospel". I think we've actually lessened the gospel by defining it as Jesus dying for our sins and that we get to go to Heaven when we die if we say the right prayer or are baptized. IMO, that's a watering-down of gospel as it is so much bigger than that.

 

[AAABatteries]

I have a good friend and highly educated pastor and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven is he says, "We'll see".

It's not written in the New Testament that way, right? I'm thinking verses like John 14:6 are pretty clear in this regard: The way to Heaven is only through Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone.

Correct. John 14: 5-6 says

5 “No, we don’t know, Lord,” Thomas said. “We have no idea where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is.[c] From now on, you do know him and have seen him!”

I've just never let this be a big stumbling block for me. I think Jesus is the way. So that's how I operate. So my take on it is as you said earlier. "I know there are a ton of cool ideas about how to live a good life and be a better person, here's one that works for me." And that's my focus.

If someone were to ask, "Well what about this other non-Christian religion?" My answer is, "I know what works for me. And I think Jesus was right when he said he was the way".

And then I'm like my pastor friend and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven when he says, "We'll see".

This is great and admirable and I truly mean that because I think that’s what life is all about but I know many church people who would say you are watering down the gospel. The ultimate goal of the Christian life isn’t to live a good life and be a better person - or else it would be salvation by works. It’s to have a relationship with Christ and if you don’t it doesn’t matter what works for you or others or how good a person you are - if you don’t have that relationship scripture says you will spend eternity separated from God in hell.

We’ve talked about my church before - Andy Stanley’s - he gets A LOT of grief from SBC types that he’s trying to get people to be good people and live happy lives. And that he ignores the gospel.

I am becoming more and more convinced that we have a major Biblical literacy problem. I'm not putting myself out there as some expert; I've really only been on a serious learning journey for a few years now and it's a never-ending journey with so many different paths to explore. But, the more I learn, the more I think we are way off track in so many areas of understanding the Bible, which means misunderstanding who God is and what he cares about. This journey has been eye opening and I finally actually love the Bible for the first time in my life.

I mention this in response to your post because you mentioned "gospel". I think we've actually lessened the gospel by defining it as Jesus dying for our sins and that we get to go to Heaven when we die if we say the right prayer or are baptized. IMO, that's a watering-down of gospel as it is so much bigger than that.

I don’t disagree with you, especially about most of us not being experts but would you agree that fundamentally the gospel is “the good news” of Christ being sent to die for our sins and that we can receive him and have salvation from eternal damnation?

If so, then I feel that opens up so many questions that basically requires mental gymnastics to answer - or just blind faith.

 

[AAABatteries]

I will say, I’ll give Timmy credit as I keep coming back to what he said about generally speaking his experience is that religious people are better in aggregate than non-religious people. I have to admit that’s been my personal experience too. I’m just not totally convinced that does enough to overcome the damage religion and religious people do - I still hold that it doesn’t but as a white, heterosexual male it’s a little easier for me to say it’s all good because frankly I’ve never felt marginalized in my life.

 

[The Commish]

I have a good friend and highly educated pastor and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven is he says, "We'll see".

It's not written in the New Testament that way, right? I'm thinking verses like John 14:6 are pretty clear in this regard: The way to Heaven is only through Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone.

Correct. John 14: 5-6 says

5 “No, we don’t know, Lord,” Thomas said. “We have no idea where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is.[c] From now on, you do know him and have seen him!”

I've just never let this be a big stumbling block for me. I think Jesus is the way. So that's how I operate. So my take on it is as you said earlier. "I know there are a ton of cool ideas about how to live a good life and be a better person, here's one that works for me." And that's my focus.

If someone were to ask, "Well what about this other non-Christian religion?" My answer is, "I know what works for me. And I think Jesus was right when he said he was the way".

And then I'm like my pastor friend and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven when he says, "We'll see".

This is great and admirable and I truly mean that because I think that’s what life is all about but I know many church people who would say you are watering down the gospel. The ultimate goal of the Christian life isn’t to live a good life and be a better person - or else it would be salvation by works. It’s to have a relationship with Christ and if you don’t it doesn’t matter what works for you or others or how good a person you are - if you don’t have that relationship scripture says you will spend eternity separated from God in hell.

We’ve talked about my church before - Andy Stanley’s - he gets A LOT of grief from SBC types that he’s trying to get people to be good people and live happy lives. And that he ignores the gospel.

Nothing meaningful to add as I think IK has covered it pretty well. I'll just throw out the reality that if the SBC is up in arms with what you're doing, you're likely on the right path. They DO have new leadership, but that leadership has a massively large uphill climb to pull the SBC out of religion as a "business" and make it a "service".

 

[Wildcat]

I have a good friend and highly educated pastor and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven is he says, "We'll see".

It's not written in the New Testament that way, right? I'm thinking verses like John 14:6 are pretty clear in this regard: The way to Heaven is only through Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone.

Correct. John 14: 5-6 says

5 “No, we don’t know, Lord,” Thomas said. “We have no idea where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is.[c] From now on, you do know him and have seen him!”

I've just never let this be a big stumbling block for me. I think Jesus is the way. So that's how I operate. So my take on it is as you said earlier. "I know there are a ton of cool ideas about how to live a good life and be a better person, here's one that works for me." And that's my focus.

If someone were to ask, "Well what about this other non-Christian religion?" My answer is, "I know what works for me. And I think Jesus was right when he said he was the way".

And then I'm like my pastor friend and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven when he says, "We'll see".

This is great and admirable and I truly mean that because I think that’s what life is all about but I know many church people who would say you are watering down the gospel. The ultimate goal of the Christian life isn’t to live a good life and be a better person - or else it would be salvation by works. It’s to have a relationship with Christ and if you don’t it doesn’t matter what works for you or others or how good a person you are - if you don’t have that relationship scripture says you will spend eternity separated from God in hell.

We’ve talked about my church before - Andy Stanley’s - he gets A LOT of grief from SBC types that he’s trying to get people to be good people and live happy lives. And that he ignores the gospel.

I am becoming more and more convinced that we have a major Biblical literacy problem. I'm not putting myself out there as some expert; I've really only been on a serious learning journey for a few years now and it's a never-ending journey with so many different paths to explore. But, the more I learn, the more I think we are way off track in so many areas of understanding the Bible, which means misunderstanding who God is and what he cares about. This journey has been eye opening and I finally actually love the Bible for the first time in my life.

I mention this in response to your post because you mentioned "gospel". I think we've actually lessened the gospel by defining it as Jesus dying for our sins and that we get to go to Heaven when we die if we say the right prayer or are baptized. IMO, that's a watering-down of gospel as it is so much bigger than that.

I am currently listening to the audiobook Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. Anyone that is interested in understanding more about the Christian faith (even Christians themselves), I would highly recommend it. It touches on this subject and more.

 

[dgreen]

I have a good friend and highly educated pastor and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven is he says, "We'll see".

It's not written in the New Testament that way, right? I'm thinking verses like John 14:6 are pretty clear in this regard: The way to Heaven is only through Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone.

Correct. John 14: 5-6 says

5 “No, we don’t know, Lord,” Thomas said. “We have no idea where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is.[c] From now on, you do know him and have seen him!”

I've just never let this be a big stumbling block for me. I think Jesus is the way. So that's how I operate. So my take on it is as you said earlier. "I know there are a ton of cool ideas about how to live a good life and be a better person, here's one that works for me." And that's my focus.

If someone were to ask, "Well what about this other non-Christian religion?" My answer is, "I know what works for me. And I think Jesus was right when he said he was the way".

And then I'm like my pastor friend and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven when he says, "We'll see".

This is great and admirable and I truly mean that because I think that’s what life is all about but I know many church people who would say you are watering down the gospel. The ultimate goal of the Christian life isn’t to live a good life and be a better person - or else it would be salvation by works. It’s to have a relationship with Christ and if you don’t it doesn’t matter what works for you or others or how good a person you are - if you don’t have that relationship scripture says you will spend eternity separated from God in hell.

We’ve talked about my church before - Andy Stanley’s - he gets A LOT of grief from SBC types that he’s trying to get people to be good people and live happy lives. And that he ignores the gospel.

I am becoming more and more convinced that we have a major Biblical literacy problem. I'm not putting myself out there as some expert; I've really only been on a serious learning journey for a few years now and it's a never-ending journey with so many different paths to explore. But, the more I learn, the more I think we are way off track in so many areas of understanding the Bible, which means misunderstanding who God is and what he cares about. This journey has been eye opening and I finally actually love the Bible for the first time in my life.

I mention this in response to your post because you mentioned "gospel". I think we've actually lessened the gospel by defining it as Jesus dying for our sins and that we get to go to Heaven when we die if we say the right prayer or are baptized. IMO, that's a watering-down of gospel as it is so much bigger than that.

I don’t disagree with you, especially about most of us not being experts but would you agree that fundamentally the gospel is “the good news” of Christ being sent to die for our sins and that we can receive him and have salvation from eternal damnation?

If so, then I feel that opens up so many questions that basically requires mental gymnastics to answer - or just blind faith.

That's what I used to think the gospel is. But now I see that as incomplete. I see that as one of the things the gospel does, not what the gospel is. Gospel is much bigger.

The NT authors didn't make up the word euangelion (good news/announcement). It had been in use for hundreds of years before Jesus and had a specific meaning. It was the announcement of a king and a kingdom. Alexander the Great would go somewhere and announce a euangelion that the kingdom of Greece is on the scene. Rome would say "Good news, Rome is here!" One inscription said,"...the birthday of the god Augustus was the beginning of the euangelion..." It was an announcement of his kingdom.

Jesus comes on the scene and there is a gospel announcement. The announcement isn't "I'm going to die for your sins". The announcement was "The Kingdom of God is here." That kind of announcement is consistent with the cultural context of the use of euangelion. It's kingdom language. To me, that's bigger than salvation and getting to go to Heaven when we die. I think salvation is important. I think it's something that the king does. But I don't think it captures the full meaning of gospel and I believe it skews our mission. If gospel is "being saved", then my end goal is to be saved. If gospel is the announcement of a kingdom, then my end goal is to figure out what the king cares about and join in that mission.

 

[dgreen]

I have a good friend and highly educated pastor and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven is he says, "We'll see".

It's not written in the New Testament that way, right? I'm thinking verses like John 14:6 are pretty clear in this regard: The way to Heaven is only through Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone.

Correct. John 14: 5-6 says

5 “No, we don’t know, Lord,” Thomas said. “We have no idea where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is.[c] From now on, you do know him and have seen him!”

I've just never let this be a big stumbling block for me. I think Jesus is the way. So that's how I operate. So my take on it is as you said earlier. "I know there are a ton of cool ideas about how to live a good life and be a better person, here's one that works for me." And that's my focus.

If someone were to ask, "Well what about this other non-Christian religion?" My answer is, "I know what works for me. And I think Jesus was right when he said he was the way".

And then I'm like my pastor friend and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven when he says, "We'll see".

This is great and admirable and I truly mean that because I think that’s what life is all about but I know many church people who would say you are watering down the gospel. The ultimate goal of the Christian life isn’t to live a good life and be a better person - or else it would be salvation by works. It’s to have a relationship with Christ and if you don’t it doesn’t matter what works for you or others or how good a person you are - if you don’t have that relationship scripture says you will spend eternity separated from God in hell.

We’ve talked about my church before - Andy Stanley’s - he gets A LOT of grief from SBC types that he’s trying to get people to be good people and live happy lives. And that he ignores the gospel.

I am becoming more and more convinced that we have a major Biblical literacy problem. I'm not putting myself out there as some expert; I've really only been on a serious learning journey for a few years now and it's a never-ending journey with so many different paths to explore. But, the more I learn, the more I think we are way off track in so many areas of understanding the Bible, which means misunderstanding who God is and what he cares about. This journey has been eye opening and I finally actually love the Bible for the first time in my life.

I mention this in response to your post because you mentioned "gospel". I think we've actually lessened the gospel by defining it as Jesus dying for our sins and that we get to go to Heaven when we die if we say the right prayer or are baptized. IMO, that's a watering-down of gospel as it is so much bigger than that.

I am currently listening to the audiobook Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. Anyone that is interested in understanding more about the Christian faith (even Christians themselves), I would highly recommend it. It touches on this subject and more.

It's been a long time since I read Mere Christianity. I have a copy somewhere in the house. What subject are you referring to?

 

[Wildcat]

I have a good friend and highly educated pastor and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven is he says, "We'll see".

It's not written in the New Testament that way, right? I'm thinking verses like John 14:6 are pretty clear in this regard: The way to Heaven is only through Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone.

Correct. John 14: 5-6 says

5 “No, we don’t know, Lord,” Thomas said. “We have no idea where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is.[c] From now on, you do know him and have seen him!”

I've just never let this be a big stumbling block for me. I think Jesus is the way. So that's how I operate. So my take on it is as you said earlier. "I know there are a ton of cool ideas about how to live a good life and be a better person, here's one that works for me." And that's my focus.

If someone were to ask, "Well what about this other non-Christian religion?" My answer is, "I know what works for me. And I think Jesus was right when he said he was the way".

And then I'm like my pastor friend and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven when he says, "We'll see".

This is great and admirable and I truly mean that because I think that’s what life is all about but I know many church people who would say you are watering down the gospel. The ultimate goal of the Christian life isn’t to live a good life and be a better person - or else it would be salvation by works. It’s to have a relationship with Christ and if you don’t it doesn’t matter what works for you or others or how good a person you are - if you don’t have that relationship scripture says you will spend eternity separated from God in hell.

We’ve talked about my church before - Andy Stanley’s - he gets A LOT of grief from SBC types that he’s trying to get people to be good people and live happy lives. And that he ignores the gospel.

I am becoming more and more convinced that we have a major Biblical literacy problem. I'm not putting myself out there as some expert; I've really only been on a serious learning journey for a few years now and it's a never-ending journey with so many different paths to explore. But, the more I learn, the more I think we are way off track in so many areas of understanding the Bible, which means misunderstanding who God is and what he cares about. This journey has been eye opening and I finally actually love the Bible for the first time in my life.

I mention this in response to your post because you mentioned "gospel". I think we've actually lessened the gospel by defining it as Jesus dying for our sins and that we get to go to Heaven when we die if we say the right prayer or are baptized. IMO, that's a watering-down of gospel as it is so much bigger than that.

I am currently listening to the audiobook Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. Anyone that is interested in understanding more about the Christian faith (even Christians themselves), I would highly recommend it. It touches on this subject and more.

It's been a long time since I read Mere Christianity. I have a copy somewhere in the house. What subject are you referring to?

Sorry, I should have been clearer. It was what @AAABatteries said:

"The ultimate goal of the Christian life isn’t to live a good life and be a better person - or else it would be salvation by works. It’s to have a relationship with Christ and if you don’t it doesn’t matter what works for you or others or how good a person you are - if you don’t have that relationship scripture says you will spend eternity separated from God in hell."

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I am currently listening to the audiobook Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. Anyone that is interested in understanding more about the Christian faith (even Christians themselves), I would highly recommend it. It touches on this subject and more.

Mere Christianity is a short, easy read that does a good job of explaining why intelligent people might be drawn to Christianity. In particular, it's a nice palliative for anybody who still thinks about religion in "Sunday school" terms, as Lewis sometimes puts. I don't agree with every argument the guy makes, and Lewis explicitly tells the reader that his books aren't supposed to be last word on any of this. But he has an adult approach to religion that holds up well IMO.

 

[The Commish]

I have a good friend and highly educated pastor and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven is he says, "We'll see".

It's not written in the New Testament that way, right? I'm thinking verses like John 14:6 are pretty clear in this regard: The way to Heaven is only through Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone.

Correct. John 14: 5-6 says

5 “No, we don’t know, Lord,” Thomas said. “We have no idea where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is.[c] From now on, you do know him and have seen him!”

I've just never let this be a big stumbling block for me. I think Jesus is the way. So that's how I operate. So my take on it is as you said earlier. "I know there are a ton of cool ideas about how to live a good life and be a better person, here's one that works for me." And that's my focus.

If someone were to ask, "Well what about this other non-Christian religion?" My answer is, "I know what works for me. And I think Jesus was right when he said he was the way".

And then I'm like my pastor friend and his response to the question of if all the different religions are valid paths to the same God and we'll all be in the same heaven when he says, "We'll see".

This is great and admirable and I truly mean that because I think that’s what life is all about but I know many church people who would say you are watering down the gospel. The ultimate goal of the Christian life isn’t to live a good life and be a better person - or else it would be salvation by works. It’s to have a relationship with Christ and if you don’t it doesn’t matter what works for you or others or how good a person you are - if you don’t have that relationship scripture says you will spend eternity separated from God in hell.

We’ve talked about my church before - Andy Stanley’s - he gets A LOT of grief from SBC types that he’s trying to get people to be good people and live happy lives. And that he ignores the gospel.

I am becoming more and more convinced that we have a major Biblical literacy problem. I'm not putting myself out there as some expert; I've really only been on a serious learning journey for a few years now and it's a never-ending journey with so many different paths to explore. But, the more I learn, the more I think we are way off track in so many areas of understanding the Bible, which means misunderstanding who God is and what he cares about. This journey has been eye opening and I finally actually love the Bible for the first time in my life.

I mention this in response to your post because you mentioned "gospel". I think we've actually lessened the gospel by defining it as Jesus dying for our sins and that we get to go to Heaven when we die if we say the right prayer or are baptized. IMO, that's a watering-down of gospel as it is so much bigger than that.

I am currently listening to the audiobook Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. Anyone that is interested in understanding more about the Christian faith (even Christians themselves), I would highly recommend it. It touches on this subject and more.

It's a book I recommend to anyone wanting to understand how a transition from "nonbeliever" to "believer" might look.

 

[SWC]

What if that's what the world was mad at us about? Instead of rightly being mad at us for a lack compassion to certain groups, what if the world was mad at us for having compassion for the groups of people that even society doesn't think are worthy?

(Notably, Jesus never said that prostitution was fine -- prostitution is unambiguously condemned throughout the Bible, so this is a nice clean example of how we're supposed to treat sinners, which again includes all of us).

so i go to bible camp every spring and this is one of the things i have raised numerous times not the issue of prostitution but the idea that the bible which was pieced together about 40 years after christ died is a totally accurate depiction of what christ said or didnt say my point is that the church undoubtedly assembles things in a way that meet its agenda and there are doctrinal wars going on all the time hell i listen to christian radio all the time here in brewtown and there are hosts who actively berate the pope so my point is this when anyone says stuff so definitively about what christ said or didnt say you are assuming that the people who cobbled together the bible didnt have agendas when they surely did as the entire history of the church of rome has shown us and you are likely ignorning a lot of other texts that didnt make the cut that might not say what whoever put the bible together wanted to hear in the end if you are a believer i think its like this there are only a few immutable truths 1 there is a god 2 im not him or her and 3 i dont know thier will and it is categorically a sin for me to assume or say that i do so i try to look at what the images of what christ actually did he loved everyone he forgave them their sins and he lived a life that others should emulate of service and empathy to others that is the path of the brohan and that is what i strive to live take that to the bank brohans

 

[Joe Bryant]

so i go to bible camp every spring and this is one of the things i have raised numerous times not the issue of prostitution but the idea that the bible which was pieced together about 40 years after christ died is a totally accurate depiction of what christ said or didnt say my point is that the church undoubtedly assembles things in a way that meet its agenda and there are doctrinal wars going on all the time hell i listen to christian radio all the time here in brewtown and there are hosts who actively berate the pope so my point is this when anyone says stuff so definitively about what christ said or didnt say you are assuming that the people who cobbled together the bible didnt have agendas when they surely did as the entire history of the church of rome has shown us and you are likely ignorning a lot of other texts that didnt make the cut that might not say what whoever put the bible together wanted to hear in the end if you are a believer i think its like this there are only a few immutable truths 1 there is a god 2 im not him or her and 3 i dont know thier will and it is categorically a sin for me to assume or say that i do so i try to look at what the images of what christ actually did he loved everyone he forgave them their sins and he lived a life that others should emulate of service and empathy to others that is the path of the brohan and that is what i strive to live take that to the bank brohans

Yup. Thanks GB.

That's like Matthew 22 where they asked Jesus what laws (rules) were the most important.

One of their religion scholars spoke for them, posing a question they hoped would show him up: “Teacher, which command in God’s Law is the most important?”

37-40 Jesus said, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your passion and prayer and intelligence.’ This is the most important, the first on any list. But there is a second to set alongside it: ‘Love others as well as you love yourself.’ These two commands are pegs; everything in God’s Law and the Prophets hangs from them.”

 

[dgreen]

so i go to bible camp every spring and this is one of the things i have raised numerous times not the issue of prostitution but the idea that the bible which was pieced together about 40 years after christ died is a totally accurate depiction of what christ said or didnt say my point is that the church undoubtedly assembles things in a way that meet its agenda and there are doctrinal wars going on all the time hell i listen to christian radio all the time here in brewtown and there are hosts who actively berate the pope so my point is this when anyone says stuff so definitively about what christ said or didnt say you are assuming that the people who cobbled together the bible didnt have agendas when they surely did as the entire history of the church of rome has shown us and you are likely ignorning a lot of other texts that didnt make the cut that might not say what whoever put the bible together wanted to hear in the end if you are a believer i think its like this there are only a few immutable truths 1 there is a god 2 im not him or her and 3 i dont know thier will and it is categorically a sin for me to assume or say that i do so i try to look at what the images of what christ actually did he loved everyone he forgave them their sins and he lived a life that others should emulate of service and empathy to others that is the path of the brohan and that is what i strive to live take that to the bank brohans

Yup. Thanks GB.

That's like Matthew 22 where they asked Jesus what laws (rules) were the most important.

One of their religion scholars spoke for them, posing a question they hoped would show him up: “Teacher, which command in God’s Law is the most important?”

37-40 Jesus said, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your passion and prayer and intelligence.’ This is the most important, the first on any list. But there is a second to set alongside it: ‘Love others as well as you love yourself.’ These two commands are pegs; everything in God’s Law and the Prophets hangs from them.”

Ooh, that's really cool that Peterson says "the first on any list" because my understanding is rabbis had lists where they'd rank the commandments and that would show up as the greatest command on probably everyone's list.

 

[dutch]

My sister and her family are jehovas witnesses and they’d think you all are heretics by your beliefs. And according to her, their Bible is the true unsullied word of God, and therefore cannot be wrong. Also I will not be joining paradise on earth apparently.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Ooh, that's really cool that Peterson says "the first on any list" because my understanding is rabbis had lists where they'd rank the commandments and that would show up as the greatest command on probably everyone's list.

Agreed. I love some of the stuff he does like that.

And for folks that don't know, Eugene Peterson was a pastor and an author and did a translation of the bible called The Message. Most translations are done by a big team of scholars. The Message is different as it's just Peterson. Which means it's (rightfully) seen as less serious or academic than the others. A group of people will most usually come to the better answer. He was a regular pastor that just wanted a translation that felt more readable and understandable in modern English.

I often find it helpful.

Here's a video that might be interesting where he talks with U2's Bono a while back.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

 

[Psychopav]

I will say, I’ll give Timmy credit as I keep coming back to what he said about generally speaking his experience is that religious people are better in aggregate than non-religious people. I have to admit that’s been my personal experience too. I’m just not totally convinced that does enough to overcome the damage religion and religious people do - I still hold that it doesn’t but as a white, heterosexual male it’s a little easier for me to say it’s all good because frankly I’ve never felt marginalized in my life.

CS Lewis put similar to this: it's not whether the Christian is a "good person", it's whether the Christian is a better person for having been a Christian than they otherwise would have been without Christ in their life.

 

[Ilov80s]

I will say, I’ll give Timmy credit as I keep coming back to what he said about generally speaking his experience is that religious people are better in aggregate than non-religious people. I have to admit that’s been my personal experience too. I’m just not totally convinced that does enough to overcome the damage religion and religious people do - I still hold that it doesn’t but as a white, heterosexual male it’s a little easier for me to say it’s all good because frankly I’ve never felt marginalized in my life.

CS Lewis put similar to this: it's not whether the Christian is a "good person", it's whether the Christian is a better person for having been a Christian than they otherwise would have been without Christ in their life.

Right it's the whole, "I'm not like this because I'm in Van Halen, I'm in Van Halen because I'm like this" thing.

 

[Zow]

This is an important point that people don't want to hear: just because you don't molest kids or rob elderly people on the street doesn't mean you are a good person. The bar is much higher than that. Impossibly high, actually.

I think the issue many non-religious people have is the idea that a child molester can molest children for his entire life and then accept religion at the last minute and spend eternity in paradise while the theoretical most philanthropic person on the planet can spend eternity in hell. It’s rather absurd.

As somebody who has had to, for work purposes, view some of the captured photos and videos of the bold, my issue is more so that no cognizant "God" must exist because, if one did, there's no ****ing way said God - assuming any modicum of benevolence - would stand idly by and let what I've had to see happen. As such, if I'm wrong and a God does exist, then he is a giant ******* (which, if you read just the Old Testament, is admittedly plausible).

 

[Zow]

I will say, I’ll give Timmy credit as I keep coming back to what he said about generally speaking his experience is that religious people are better in aggregate than non-religious people. I have to admit that’s been my personal experience too. I’m just not totally convinced that does enough to overcome the damage religion and religious people do - I still hold that it doesn’t but as a white, heterosexual male it’s a little easier for me to say it’s all good because frankly I’ve never felt marginalized in my life.

CS Lewis put similar to this: it's not whether the Christian is a "good person", it's whether the Christian is a better person for having been a Christian than they otherwise would have been without Christ in their life.

CS Lewis was a good writer with decent points. Mere Christianity is a good read.

 

[Zow]

I am currently listening to the audiobook Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. Anyone that is interested in understanding more about the Christian faith (even Christians themselves), I would highly recommend it. It touches on this subject and more.

Mere Christianity is a short, easy read that does a good job of explaining why intelligent people might be drawn to Christianity. In particular, it's a nice palliative for anybody who still thinks about religion in "Sunday school" terms, as Lewis sometimes puts. I don't agree with every argument the guy makes, and Lewis explicitly tells the reader that his books aren't supposed to be last word on any of this. But he has an adult approach to religion that holds up well IMO.

CS Lewis, Pascal, and St. Thomas Aquinas are probably the most rational of the theologians or champions of apologetics. It's no shocker that their works are usually the first one taught in an Apologetics class.

 

[BlackCrowes]

the OP says that Pew started tracking this in 2007, which is right about the time that the Four Horsemen of the New Atheism movement became popular. You can’t ignore the effect that they undoubtedly had.

I know The End of Faith by Sam Harris pretty much slammed the door for me on any possible return to religion. I was kind of wondering in a world of deism until then. I’m guessing I’m not alone in that respect.

 

[AAABatteries]

the OP says that Pew started tracking this in 2007, which is right about the time that the Four Horsemen of the New Atheism movement became popular. You can’t ignore the effect that they undoubtedly had.

I know The End of Faith by Sam Harris pretty much slammed the door for me on any possible return to religion. I was kind of wondering in a world of deism until then. I’m guessing I’m not alone in that respect.

I have to say I find atheists who are confident that there's no God/god to be "as bad"* as folks that are confidently religious and have no doubt about God's existence. Both are, IMO, acts of faith/belief. There's at least a plausibility that anything explained by science was done by a god - if a god/God exists it's entirely possible that our reality is totally altered by their whims. Read: there's no concrete way to prove that we aren't in The Matrix.

I find agnosticism to be the most logical of those 3 choices. Man has been attempting to prove/disprove god/God for a long time and we still have no clue. And it seems rather presumptuous of us to assume that we can know it. God/god could easily be a being that we can't even comprehend - because they may not want us to know or comprehend them. Or there could be no god. I don't think any of us knows.

*I'm not saying "as bad" meaning they are bad but more using the term to compare the two - both require faith.

 

[BlackCrowes]

the OP says that Pew started tracking this in 2007, which is right about the time that the Four Horsemen of the New Atheism movement became popular. You can’t ignore the effect that they undoubtedly had.

I know The End of Faith by Sam Harris pretty much slammed the door for me on any possible return to religion. I was kind of wondering in a world of deism until then. I’m guessing I’m not alone in that respect.

I have to say I find atheists who are confident that there's no God/god to be "as bad"* as folks that are confidently religious and have no doubt about God's existence. Both are, IMO, acts of faith/belief. There's at least a plausibility that anything explained by science was done by a god - if a god/God exists it's entirely possible that our reality is totally altered by their whims. Read: there's no concrete way to prove that we aren't in The Matrix.

I find agnosticism to be the most logical of those 3 choices. Man has been attempting to prove/disprove god/God for a long time and we still have no clue. And it seems rather presumptuous of us to assume that we can know it. God/god could easily be a being that we can't even comprehend - because they may not want us to know or comprehend them. Or there could be no god. I don't think any of us knows.

*I'm not saying "as bad" meaning they are bad but more using the term to compare the two - both require faith.

My definition of atheism isn’t “there is no god”. That’s an irrational assertion IMO

 

[AAABatteries]

the OP says that Pew started tracking this in 2007, which is right about the time that the Four Horsemen of the New Atheism movement became popular. You can’t ignore the effect that they undoubtedly had.

I know The End of Faith by Sam Harris pretty much slammed the door for me on any possible return to religion. I was kind of wondering in a world of deism until then. I’m guessing I’m not alone in that respect.

I have to say I find atheists who are confident that there's no God/god to be "as bad"* as folks that are confidently religious and have no doubt about God's existence. Both are, IMO, acts of faith/belief. There's at least a plausibility that anything explained by science was done by a god - if a god/God exists it's entirely possible that our reality is totally altered by their whims. Read: there's no concrete way to prove that we aren't in The Matrix.

I find agnosticism to be the most logical of those 3 choices. Man has been attempting to prove/disprove god/God for a long time and we still have no clue. And it seems rather presumptuous of us to assume that we can know it. God/god could easily be a being that we can't even comprehend - because they may not want us to know or comprehend them. Or there could be no god. I don't think any of us knows.

*I'm not saying "as bad" meaning they are bad but more using the term to compare the two - both require faith.

My definition of atheism isn’t “there is no god”. That’s an irrational assertion IMO

Just to make sure I understand your position - you are saying you are confident that the deities as outlined in religious texts do not exist?

 

[BlackCrowes]

the OP says that Pew started tracking this in 2007, which is right about the time that the Four Horsemen of the New Atheism movement became popular. You can’t ignore the effect that they undoubtedly had.

I know The End of Faith by Sam Harris pretty much slammed the door for me on any possible return to religion. I was kind of wondering in a world of deism until then. I’m guessing I’m not alone in that respect.

I have to say I find atheists who are confident that there's no God/god to be "as bad"* as folks that are confidently religious and have no doubt about God's existence. Both are, IMO, acts of faith/belief. There's at least a plausibility that anything explained by science was done by a god - if a god/God exists it's entirely possible that our reality is totally altered by their whims. Read: there's no concrete way to prove that we aren't in The Matrix.

I find agnosticism to be the most logical of those 3 choices. Man has been attempting to prove/disprove god/God for a long time and we still have no clue. And it seems rather presumptuous of us to assume that we can know it. God/god could easily be a being that we can't even comprehend - because they may not want us to know or comprehend them. Or there could be no god. I don't think any of us knows.

*I'm not saying "as bad" meaning they are bad but more using the term to compare the two - both require faith.

My definition of atheism isn’t “there is no god”. That’s an irrational assertion IMO

Just to make sure I understand your position - you are saying you are confident that the deities as outlined in religious texts do not exist?

Atheism is simply that lack of belief in any gods. Am I 100% confident that no gods exist? of course not. I just see no reason to believe in any.

 

[Ghost Rider]

the OP says that Pew started tracking this in 2007, which is right about the time that the Four Horsemen of the New Atheism movement became popular. You can’t ignore the effect that they undoubtedly had.

I know The End of Faith by Sam Harris pretty much slammed the door for me on any possible return to religion. I was kind of wondering in a world of deism until then. I’m guessing I’m not alone in that respect.

I have to say I find atheists who are confident that there's no God/god to be "as bad"* as folks that are confidently religious and have no doubt about God's existence. Both are, IMO, acts of faith/belief. There's at least a plausibility that anything explained by science was done by a god - if a god/God exists it's entirely possible that our reality is totally altered by their whims. Read: there's no concrete way to prove that we aren't in The Matrix.

I find agnosticism to be the most logical of those 3 choices. Man has been attempting to prove/disprove god/God for a long time and we still have no clue. And it seems rather presumptuous of us to assume that we can know it. God/god could easily be a being that we can't even comprehend - because they may not want us to know or comprehend them. Or there could be no god. I don't think any of us knows.

*I'm not saying "as bad" meaning they are bad but more using the term to compare the two - both require faith.

My definition of atheism isn’t “there is no god”. That’s an irrational assertion IMO

Just to make sure I understand your position - you are saying you are confident that the deities as outlined in religious texts do not exist?

Atheism is simply that lack of belief in any gods. Am I 100% confident that no gods exist? of course not. I just see no reason to believe in any.

Taylor Swift is a god, and she exists. There you have it.