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Tiger Woods (1 Viewer)

The guys are on tour these days certainly look a lot bigger, definitely isn't just Tiger. Rory looks like he might have had some enhancement help. Corky also shed his fat and looks pretty jacked. Heck, go take a look at pics of Phil from early in his career and compare them to pics of him from a few years back. Vijay was downing deer antler spray before Ray Lewis.
:lmao: OK!

Rory looks like he is in really good shape...most of these guys do outside of JB Holmes, Staddler, Carl Pederson, & Co. Have you seen the workouts these guys do in the offseason and during the season? It really doesn't take that much work to look like Rory.

All Phil needed to do was watch his diet and spend a few minutes on the treadmill.
Rory looks jacked because compared to the most other pro golfers, anyone who works out seriously will look jacked. Most dudes would be surprised at the muscle a guy can put on if he works out regularly and properly.
I've seen rory close up, he's not that big. Neither is Jason Day, but on camera they look jacked.

the guy that amazes me the most is ricky fowler, he's like a flyweight, I mean like 5'8 135lbs, he's tiny.

 
The PGA Tours Anti-Doping Policy is back in the news this week after Vijay Singh admitted in a Sports Illustrated story that he is currently using a banned substance.

The Golf Channel Research Unit developed a timeline of events related to the Tours drug testing, which began in 2008.

March 22, 2006: PGA Tour commissioner Tim Finchem says there is 'no reason to jump into the testing arena'

Aug. 23, 2006: Finchem says using PEDs is same thing as 'kicking your ball in the rough'

Aug. 25, 2006: Tiger Woods says Tour must be 'proactive instead of reactive' when it comes to testing

Sept. 6, 2006: Finchem says they will make recommendations to the board about testing

Oct. 29, 2006: European Tour chief executive George OGrady says there will be a policy 'in the near future'

Nov. 15, 2006: LPGA announces a drug policy that will begin in 2008

May 27, 2007: OGrady says he wants to see 'the world of golf united on this drug policy'

June 20, 2007: Finchem says 'we're getting close' to having a rule on performance-enhancing drugs

Sept. 20, 2007: The World Golf Federation announces an anti-doping policy

Nov. 13, 2007: The PGA Tour announces that testing will begin in July 2008, with plans to begin testing on the Web.com Tour at the end of 2008 and on the Champions Tour in mid-2009

Feb. 14, 2008: The LPGA begins a trial run of drug testing at the Fields Open:

May 17, 2008: LPGA resumes drug testing after changing drug-test administrators

July 1, 2008: PGA Tour begins drug testing at the AT&T National, European Tour at the European Open

Nov. 3, 2009: PGA Tour player Doug Barron suspended for one year after testing positive for supplemental testosterone and a beta-blocker

Aug. 11, 2011: PGA Tour issues warning to players to stop using a deer antler spray called The Ultimate Spray because of the presence of IGF-1, which is a banned substance

Jan. 29, 2013: Sports Illustrated releases an article on the use of deer-antler spray and includes quotes from Hall of Famer Vijay Singh, starting his own use of the spray
http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golftalkcentral/timeline-pga-tours-drug-testing-policy/
PONTE VEDRA BEACH, Florida (AP) The PGA Tour plans to start its new drug-testing program as early as July, with penalties for a positive test that could range from a one-year suspension for a first offense to a lifetime ban if a player is caught three times.

Leaders from golf's most influential organizations signed off last month on an anti-doping policy. The tour's plan was approved by its policy board.

PGA Tour commissioner Tim Finchem said players will receive a manual next month as part of an education program that will extend through June, with testing to follow.

The manual will contain a list of prohibited substances that fall under 10 categories, ranging from anabolic steroids to human growth hormones to narcotics to beta blockers.

Finchem said the tour can test players without notice anytime and anywhere, and testing at a PGA Tour event can occur before or after practice or competition. There was no limit to how many times a year a player can be tested. It was not clear if there would be any mandatory testing or players, such as the winner of a tournament.

Penalties could include ineligibility for up to one year for the first violation; up to five years for the second violation; up to a lifetime ban for multiple violations; and fines up to $500,000.

Finchem said violations for recreational drugs, such as marijuana or cocaine, could be treated differently from steroids. The program allows the commissioner discretion to require treatment instead of sanctions, or a combination of the two.

He also said the tour would disclose violations and will report the penalty. That's typical of other sports, noteworthy in golf because the tour has never disclosed fines for such things as conduct unbecoming a professional.

An education program for the Nationwide Tour will begin in the middle of next year, with testing to start toward the end of the 2008 season. On the Champions Tour for players 50 and older, the education program will start in January 2009, with testing expected to start in the middle of that year.
http://www.golf.com/ap-news/drug-testing-arrive-tour-next-summerTiger Woods last won a major June 16, 2008 at Torrey Pines. - Of course that was also in that April-June time period that he had suffered and suffered through his really serious knee injury.
As has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread, Tiger Woods was the PGA Tour Player of the Year in 2013.

If people want to define whether he's "back" by majors won, so be it. But if you're gonna make PED allegations based only on a perception that his play dropping off a cliff at the same time that drug testing was instituted you have to account for that resurgence, majors or not. It's not like there's a special PED that only helps you win majors.
Ok, fair enough.

I will point out that Majors have the best fields, have the toughest courses in the toughest conditions, and require the greatest endurance and toughness. It's not just like they are "just another round."

But, question: what do people know about the testing? How often does the PGA do it and is it any different for the majors? We know a lot about testing in baseball and NFL (the Gordon thread is almost a treatise on it), what goes on in pro golf?
The fields in the events he was winning were pretty tough. And from a physical standpoint a round at the majors is in fact just another round, other than the extra couple swings of the club. When people talk about the conditions at majors and the "toughness" you need to win, they're referring to mental toughness. I don't think they've invented mental PEDs yet. It's not like the majors play longer or something, which is where you might arguably see PED benefits for golfers (questionable anyway).
Adderall
So to recap the PED argument ... the reason he stopped being the best player in the world in 2008 was because he couldn't take PEDs anymore. He was able to overcome this in 2013 and was once again the best player in the world (still no explanation for how this was done, or how he was so good as a teenage amateur). But he still couldn't win majors because he wasn't able to take Adderall and therefore couldn't keep focused as one needs to do in the majors ... although his focus that year was still sufficient to win multiple WGC events, go 4-1 in the President's Cup and finish T4 in the Masters and T6 in the Open.

Is that about where we are on this one?
What about his association with Dr. Galea?

 
The guys are on tour these days certainly look a lot bigger, definitely isn't just Tiger. Rory looks like he might have had some enhancement help. Corky also shed his fat and looks pretty jacked. Heck, go take a look at pics of Phil from early in his career and compare them to pics of him from a few years back. Vijay was downing deer antler spray before Ray Lewis.
:lmao: OK!

Rory looks like he is in really good shape...most of these guys do outside of JB Holmes, Staddler, Carl Pederson, & Co. Have you seen the workouts these guys do in the offseason and during the season? It really doesn't take that much work to look like Rory.

All Phil needed to do was watch his diet and spend a few minutes on the treadmill.
Rory looks jacked because compared to the most other pro golfers, anyone who works out seriously will look jacked. Most dudes would be surprised at the muscle a guy can put on if he works out regularly and properly.
I've seen rory close up, he's not that big. Neither is Jason Day, but on camera they look jacked.

the guy that amazes me the most is ricky fowler, he's like a flyweight, I mean like 5'8 135lbs, he's tiny.
By jacked I meant lean with obvious musculature. I've seen a few of these dudes close up and I agree that most seem smaller than average (in height).

 
So to recap the PED argument ... the reason he stopped being the best player in the world in 2008 was because he couldn't take PEDs anymore. He was able to overcome this in 2013 and was once again the best player in the world (still no explanation for how this was done, or how he was so good as a teenage amateur). But he still couldn't win majors because he wasn't able to take Adderall and therefore couldn't keep focused as one needs to do in the majors ... although his focus that year was still sufficient to win multiple WGC events, go 4-1 in the President's Cup and finish T4 in the Masters and T6 in the Open.

Is that about where we are on this one?
What about his association with Dr. Galea?
This?

Well first, that's a totally separate argument than this one, where you tried to tie the timing of his fade and his last major to the PGA Tour's new drug policy. I think that argument is total nonsense for the several reasons I listed.

And second, that happened in 2009, after he dropped off. So obviously PEDs weren't responsible for his play before that. And there's also the note from his old coach Hank Haney in that link (who doesn't seem to care much for Woods or for protecting his secrets) that he watched the treatments and there wasn't anything out of the ordinary and nothing was injected into him. And the fact that he visited him in 2009 and Woods' play didn't really recover until late 2012-13.

Basically it kinda sounds like people are throwing #### at a wall and hoping something sticks.

 
I would put Sergio in there over Toms.

To me it's

Phil -- 51 wins(42 on PGA Tour), 5 majors. (Runner up to Tiger once)

VJ -- 47 wins (34 on PGA), 3 majors

Els -- 47 wins (19 on PGA), 4 majors (Runner up to Tiger twice)

Big Gap.

Goosen -- 22 wins (8 on PGA tour), 2 majors

Sergio -- 28 wins (9 on PGA tour), no majors, but 300+ weeks in OWGR top 10, third behind only Tiger and Phil in this time period.

in that order.

Also need to have honorable mentions of David Toms, David Duval, Chris Dimarco, Justin Leonard, Angel Cabrerra, Miguel Angel Jimenez, and Padraig Harrington.

Outside of Phil, VJ, and Ernie, it's hard to say that anyone really pressed Tiger as best in the world during his run.
I was also thinking Harrington and Garcia. Not sure if he's been mentioned but maybe O'Meara fits in there possibly?

 
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TobiasFunke said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
TobiasFunke said:
So to recap the PED argument ... the reason he stopped being the best player in the world in 2008 was because he couldn't take PEDs anymore. He was able to overcome this in 2013 and was once again the best player in the world (still no explanation for how this was done, or how he was so good as a teenage amateur). But he still couldn't win majors because he wasn't able to take Adderall and therefore couldn't keep focused as one needs to do in the majors ... although his focus that year was still sufficient to win multiple WGC events, go 4-1 in the President's Cup and finish T4 in the Masters and T6 in the Open.

Is that about where we are on this one?
What about his association with Dr. Galea?
This?

Well first, that's a totally separate argument than this one, where you tried to tie the timing of his fade and his last major to the PGA Tour's new drug policy. I think that argument is total nonsense for the several reasons I listed.

And second, that happened in 2009, after he dropped off. So obviously PEDs weren't responsible for his play before that. And there's also the note from his old coach Hank Haney in that link (who doesn't seem to care much for Woods or for protecting his secrets) that he watched the treatments and there wasn't anything out of the ordinary and nothing was injected into him. And the fact that he visited him in 2009 and Woods' play didn't really recover until late 2012-13.

Basically it kinda sounds like people are throwing #### at a wall and hoping something sticks.
Sorry but Haney isn't a doctor so his statement means nothing. It is also hard to take a note as proof and oh yeah, Haney doesn't have a medical degree
 
It's not the PEDs (unless some correlation ca be made between stopping that and his body basically falling apart year after year - as a 38 yr old)

It's just that he isn't any good anymore. Apart from a nice 6 month run in 2013, the guy has basically done nothing since Ambiengate.

And he was never in contention for the T4 at the Masters.

Oh, and he blew the 36 hole lead epically at the US Open that year for his T-6.

 
TobiasFunke said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
TobiasFunke said:
So to recap the PED argument ... the reason he stopped being the best player in the world in 2008 was because he couldn't take PEDs anymore. He was able to overcome this in 2013 and was once again the best player in the world (still no explanation for how this was done, or how he was so good as a teenage amateur). But he still couldn't win majors because he wasn't able to take Adderall and therefore couldn't keep focused as one needs to do in the majors ... although his focus that year was still sufficient to win multiple WGC events, go 4-1 in the President's Cup and finish T4 in the Masters and T6 in the Open.

Is that about where we are on this one?
What about his association with Dr. Galea?
This?

Well first, that's a totally separate argument than this one, where you tried to tie the timing of his fade and his last major to the PGA Tour's new drug policy. I think that argument is total nonsense for the several reasons I listed.

And second, that happened in 2009, after he dropped off. So obviously PEDs weren't responsible for his play before that. And there's also the note from his old coach Hank Haney in that link (who doesn't seem to care much for Woods or for protecting his secrets) that he watched the treatments and there wasn't anything out of the ordinary and nothing was injected into him. And the fact that he visited him in 2009 and Woods' play didn't really recover until late 2012-13.

Basically it kinda sounds like people are throwing #### at a wall and hoping something sticks.
Sorry but Haney isn't a doctor so his statement means nothing. It is also hard to take a note as proof and oh yeah, Haney doesn't have a medical degree
You're demanding proof and proper medical credentials in order to refute allegations of PED use despite the absence of any positive tests or first-hand accounts of said use?

You see the irony there, right? I hope that you do. I know your hatred of Woods can blind you but even Ray Charles can see that's pretty silly.

 
It's not the PEDs (unless some correlation ca be made between stopping that and his body basically falling apart year after year - as a 38 yr old)

It's just that he isn't any good anymore. Apart from a nice 6 month run in 2013, the guy has basically done nothing since Ambiengate.

And he was never in contention for the T4 at the Masters.

Oh, and he blew the 36 hole lead epically at the US Open that year for his T-6.
It was the British Open and he didn't have the lead, he was tied for second with three others guys behind Jimenez. No lead at all, let alone one that was blown epically (he was T-2 after three rounds too). And that Masters was the one where he hit the pin and ended up in the water then took a 2 stroke penalty on the drop, turning a likely birdie into a double bogey. You can fault him for the illegal drop if you like, but I'm not sure how you can tie it to diminished skills.

He's not very good any more, but I'm not sure why you need to revise history to make that so.

Tiger haters really bringing it today. Solid work, guys.

 
It's not the PEDs (unless some correlation ca be made between stopping that and his body basically falling apart year after year - as a 38 yr old)

It's just that he isn't any good anymore. Apart from a nice 6 month run in 2013, the guy has basically done nothing since Ambiengate.

And he was never in contention for the T4 at the Masters.

Oh, and he blew the 36 hole lead epically at the US Open that year for his T-6.
It was the British Open and he didn't have the lead, he was tied for second with three others guys behind Jimenez. No lead at all, let alone one that was blown epically (he was T-2 after three rounds too). And that Masters was the one where he hit the pin and ended up in the water then took a 2 stroke penalty on the drop, turning a likely birdie into a double bogey. You can fault him for the illegal drop if you like, but I'm not sure how you can tie it to diminished skills.

He's not very good any more, but I'm not sure why you need to revise history to make that so.

Tiger haters really bringing it today. Solid work, guys.
lol. my bad. it was the 2012 US Open where he had the 36 hole lead and epically collapsed down into a T21

And the penalty at the Masters was on Friday if I remember correctly. He was never really in contention on the weekend.

The last time Tiger Woods was in contention at a major on Sunday was the 2008 US Open

 
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It's not the PEDs (unless some correlation ca be made between stopping that and his body basically falling apart year after year - as a 38 yr old)

It's just that he isn't any good anymore. Apart from a nice 6 month run in 2013, the guy has basically done nothing since Ambiengate.

And he was never in contention for the T4 at the Masters.

Oh, and he blew the 36 hole lead epically at the US Open that year for his T-6.
It was the British Open and he didn't have the lead, he was tied for second with three others guys behind Jimenez. No lead at all, let alone one that was blown epically (he was T-2 after three rounds too). And that Masters was the one where he hit the pin and ended up in the water then took a 2 stroke penalty on the drop, turning a likely birdie into a double bogey. You can fault him for the illegal drop if you like, but I'm not sure how you can tie it to diminished skills.

He's not very good any more, but I'm not sure why you need to revise history to make that so.

Tiger haters really bringing it today. Solid work, guys.
When you have so much ammo, it's hard to not use it all.

 
TobiasFunke said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
TobiasFunke said:
So to recap the PED argument ... the reason he stopped being the best player in the world in 2008 was because he couldn't take PEDs anymore. He was able to overcome this in 2013 and was once again the best player in the world (still no explanation for how this was done, or how he was so good as a teenage amateur). But he still couldn't win majors because he wasn't able to take Adderall and therefore couldn't keep focused as one needs to do in the majors ... although his focus that year was still sufficient to win multiple WGC events, go 4-1 in the President's Cup and finish T4 in the Masters and T6 in the Open.

Is that about where we are on this one?
What about his association with Dr. Galea?
This?Well first, that's a totally separate argument than this one, where you tried to tie the timing of his fade and his last major to the PGA Tour's new drug policy. I think that argument is total nonsense for the several reasons I listed.

And second, that happened in 2009, after he dropped off. So obviously PEDs weren't responsible for his play before that. And there's also the note from his old coach Hank Haney in that link (who doesn't seem to care much for Woods or for protecting his secrets) that he watched the treatments and there wasn't anything out of the ordinary and nothing was injected into him. And the fact that he visited him in 2009 and Woods' play didn't really recover until late 2012-13.

Basically it kinda sounds like people are throwing #### at a wall and hoping something sticks.
Sorry but Haney isn't a doctor so his statement means nothing. It is also hard to take a note as proof and oh yeah, Haney doesn't have a medical degree
You're demanding proof and proper medical credentials in order to refute allegations of PED use despite the absence of any positive tests or first-hand accounts of said use?

You see the irony there, right? I hope that you do. I know your hatred of Woods can blind you but even Ray Charles can see that's pretty silly.
You brought up the Tiger defense of using Dr. Galea by saying Haney, in a note, said he saw nothing illegal.You better come with something better than a note

 
TobiasFunke said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
TobiasFunke said:
So to recap the PED argument ... the reason he stopped being the best player in the world in 2008 was because he couldn't take PEDs anymore. He was able to overcome this in 2013 and was once again the best player in the world (still no explanation for how this was done, or how he was so good as a teenage amateur). But he still couldn't win majors because he wasn't able to take Adderall and therefore couldn't keep focused as one needs to do in the majors ... although his focus that year was still sufficient to win multiple WGC events, go 4-1 in the President's Cup and finish T4 in the Masters and T6 in the Open.

Is that about where we are on this one?
What about his association with Dr. Galea?
This?Well first, that's a totally separate argument than this one, where you tried to tie the timing of his fade and his last major to the PGA Tour's new drug policy. I think that argument is total nonsense for the several reasons I listed.

And second, that happened in 2009, after he dropped off. So obviously PEDs weren't responsible for his play before that. And there's also the note from his old coach Hank Haney in that link (who doesn't seem to care much for Woods or for protecting his secrets) that he watched the treatments and there wasn't anything out of the ordinary and nothing was injected into him. And the fact that he visited him in 2009 and Woods' play didn't really recover until late 2012-13.

Basically it kinda sounds like people are throwing #### at a wall and hoping something sticks.
Sorry but Haney isn't a doctor so his statement means nothing. It is also hard to take a note as proof and oh yeah, Haney doesn't have a medical degree
You're demanding proof and proper medical credentials in order to refute allegations of PED use despite the absence of any positive tests or first-hand accounts of said use?

You see the irony there, right? I hope that you do. I know your hatred of Woods can blind you but even Ray Charles can see that's pretty silly.
You brought up the Tiger defense of using Dr. Galea by saying Haney, in a note, said he saw nothing illegal.You better come with something better than a note
- signed, Epstein's mom

 
Are the Tiger lovers still trying to claim he's the GOAT in here?
Nobody's ever played better. GOAT still TBD.
Problem is he's kind of like the Patriots, great team but gets to play Buffalo, Miami, and the Jets twice every year. Even if you believe he's the best ever, you have the to admit the difference between his top 5 challengers and Jack's top five challenges is enormous.

 
Are the Tiger lovers still trying to claim he's the GOAT in here?
Nobody's ever played better. GOAT still TBD.
Problem is he's kind of like the Patriots, great team but gets to play Buffalo, Miami, and the Jets twice every year. Even if you believe he's the best ever, you have the to admit the difference between his top 5 challengers and Jack's top five challenges is enormous.
is it that, or is the entire field stronger now, making the top-5 look weak by comparison, because wins are distributed more widely?
 
Tiger's wife's beating on him and his car, was like Buster Douglas' knockout of Mike Tyson..Tyson was never the same after that, and Tiger hasn't been the same since that golf club went through his windshield.

when you're these two guys ( dominant,ego-maniac athletes who are just plain bullies at their line of work) and you finally get beaten, you're never going to recover that aura. For Tyson it was another boxer, for Tiger it was a woman.Ironically,in the late 90's, while talking about winning majors, Nicklaus said 'the only thing that can stop Tiger is an injury, or a woman'

BTW - today is the 25th anniversary of Buster Douglas' knockout of Mike Tyson.

 
Are the Tiger lovers still trying to claim he's the GOAT in here?
Nobody's ever played better. GOAT still TBD.
Problem is he's kind of like the Patriots, great team but gets to play Buffalo, Miami, and the Jets twice every year. Even if you believe he's the best ever, you have the to admit the difference between his top 5 challengers and Jack's top five challenges is enormous.
He was likely on steroids so the cheating correlation is solid as well.
 
Tiger's wife's beating on him and his car, was like Buster Douglas' knockout of Mike Tyson..Tyson was never the same after that, and Tiger hasn't been the same since that golf club went through his windshield.

when you're these two guys ( dominant,ego-maniac athletes who are just plain bullies at their line of work) and you finally get beaten, you're never going to recover that aura. For Tyson it was another boxer, for Tiger it was a woman.Ironically,in the late 90's, while talking about winning majors, Nicklaus said 'the only thing that can stop Tiger is an injury, or a woman'

BTW - today is the 25th anniversary of Buster Douglas' knockout of Mike Tyson.
Nicklaus may have had some inside baseball when he made that comment.

 
Are the Tiger lovers still trying to claim he's the GOAT in here?
Nobody's ever played better. GOAT still TBD.
Problem is he's kind of like the Patriots, great team but gets to play Buffalo, Miami, and the Jets twice every year. Even if you believe he's the best ever, you have the to admit the difference between his top 5 challengers and Jack's top five challenges is enormous.
Totally disagree. I think people are confusing the fact that there were a couple other all-time greats during Jack's era with the overall depth of the field. Tiger winning a ton during an era when the field was a better bet than the other stars makes his accomplishments more impressive, not less.

One way to show it is the nationalities in the field at majors. Here's a mid-career Masters win for Jack. Almost every player listed there (former champs in the field and final leaderboard) is American except for one South African (Player) and two Australians. Golf was almost exclusively a game played in those three countries, or at least played seriously by enough people to produce top-tier professionals. And if you think I'm cherry-picking change the year to 1973 or 1974 or whatever, you'll see the same thing.

Here's a mid-career Masters win for Tiger. Looks a little different. And again, try some other years around then and you'll see the same thing. Spain, England, Argentina, South Korea, Germany, Fiji, and on and on, in addition to more South Africans and Australians.

This kind of stuff makes it hard to compare cross-era, but if you insist on it, it's pretty clear that the fields Tiger was beating came from a much larger pool of aspiring pro golfers and therefore was easily deeper and better. The larger the talent pool the better the cream that rises to the top of it.

 
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Are the Tiger lovers still trying to claim he's the GOAT in here?
Nobody's ever played better. GOAT still TBD.
Problem is he's kind of like the Patriots, great team but gets to play Buffalo, Miami, and the Jets twice every year. Even if you believe he's the best ever, you have the to admit the difference between his top 5 challengers and Jack's top five challenges is enormous.
Absolutely true IMO. Look at the list of runners-up for Jack's majors and Tiger's majors.

On the other hand, Tiger won the 2000 US Open by 15 strokes, the 1997 Masters by 12 strokes and won four consecutive majors. That stretch of eleven majors from the 1999 PGA to the 2002 US Open -- where Tiger won seven of them -- is the best golf that's ever been played IMO.

 
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Are the Tiger lovers still trying to claim he's the GOAT in here?
Nobody's ever played better. GOAT still TBD.
Problem is he's kind of like the Patriots, great team but gets to play Buffalo, Miami, and the Jets twice every year. Even if you believe he's the best ever, you have the to admit the difference between his top 5 challengers and Jack's top five challenges is enormous.
Totally disagree. I think people are confusing the fact that there were a couple other all-time greats during Jack's era with the overall depth of the field. Tiger winning a ton during an era when the field was a better bet than the other stars makes his accomplishments more impressive, not less.

One way to show it is the nationalities in the field at majors. Here's a mid-career Masters win for Jack. Almost every player listed there (former champs in the field and final leaderboard) is American except for one South African (Player) and two Australians. Golf was almost exclusively a game played in those three countries, or at least played seriously by enough people to produce top-tier professionals. And if you think I'm cherry-picking change the year to 1973 or 1974 or whatever, you'll see the same thing.

Here's a mid-career Masters win for Tiger. Looks a little different. And again, try some other years around then and you'll see the same thing. Spain, England, Argentina, South Korea, Germany, Fiji, and on and on, in addition to more South Africans and Australians.

This kind of stuff makes it hard to compare cross-era, but if you insist on it, it's pretty clear that the fields Tiger was beating came from a much larger pool of aspiring pro golfers and therefore was easily deeper and better. The larger the talent pool the better the cream that rises to the top of it.
Would you say world tennis is stronger today without so many top tier Americans in it?

 
Are the Tiger lovers still trying to claim he's the GOAT in here?
Nobody's ever played better. GOAT still TBD.
Problem is he's kind of like the Patriots, great team but gets to play Buffalo, Miami, and the Jets twice every year. Even if you believe he's the best ever, you have the to admit the difference between his top 5 challengers and Jack's top five challenges is enormous.
Totally disagree. I think people are confusing the fact that there were a couple other all-time greats during Jack's era with the overall depth of the field. Tiger winning a ton during an era when the field was a better bet than the other stars makes his accomplishments more impressive, not less.

One way to show it is the nationalities in the field at majors. Here's a mid-career Masters win for Jack. Almost every player listed there (former champs in the field and final leaderboard) is American except for one South African (Player) and two Australians. Golf was almost exclusively a game played in those three countries, or at least played seriously by enough people to produce top-tier professionals. And if you think I'm cherry-picking change the year to 1973 or 1974 or whatever, you'll see the same thing.

Here's a mid-career Masters win for Tiger. Looks a little different. And again, try some other years around then and you'll see the same thing. Spain, England, Argentina, South Korea, Germany, Fiji, and on and on, in addition to more South Africans and Australians.

This kind of stuff makes it hard to compare cross-era, but if you insist on it, it's pretty clear that the fields Tiger was beating came from a much larger pool of aspiring pro golfers and therefore was easily deeper and better. The larger the talent pool the better the cream that rises to the top of it.
Would you say world tennis is stronger today without so many top tier Americans in it?
I don't really follow tennis. But if there's a lack of top tier Americans even though the sport is more popular than ever with Americans and especially younger Americans (as is the case with golf), then I would definitely assume yes, the quality of play and depth of fields are likely much better.

 
Would you say world tennis is stronger today without so many top tier Americans in it?
Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray make up arguably the best quartet to ever play at the same time.

Borg, McEnroe, Connors and Lendl maybe?
I agree, but how strong were the fields they were beating? Tennis and golf are popular but are "great" athletes still rising to the top? I think the same discussion is going on in tennis as to whether the overall breadth/depth of talent has dropped off in the last 20-40 years.

 
Are the Tiger lovers still trying to claim he's the GOAT in here?
Nobody's ever played better. GOAT still TBD.
Problem is he's kind of like the Patriots, great team but gets to play Buffalo, Miami, and the Jets twice every year. Even if you believe he's the best ever, you have the to admit the difference between his top 5 challengers and Jack's top five challenges is enormous.
Absolutely true IMO. Look at the list of runners-up for Jack's majors and Tiger's majors.On the other hand, Tiger won the 2000 US Open by 15 strokes, the 1997 Masters by 12 strokes and won four consecutive majors. That stretch of eleven majors from the 1999 PGA to the 2002 US Open -- where Tiger won seven of them -- is the best golf that's ever been played IMO.
Couldn't this be turned around the other way as an argument for the field being stronger in Tiger's era? That more players could make a run at winning a major?
Absolutely agree. Tournament fields are far deeper now than they were in Jack's day.

 
Are the Tiger lovers still trying to claim he's the GOAT in here?
Nobody's ever played better. GOAT still TBD.
Problem is he's kind of like the Patriots, great team but gets to play Buffalo, Miami, and the Jets twice every year. Even if you believe he's the best ever, you have the to admit the difference between his top 5 challengers and Jack's top five challenges is enormous.
Totally disagree. I think people are confusing the fact that there were a couple other all-time greats during Jack's era with the overall depth of the field. Tiger winning a ton during an era when the field was a better bet than the other stars makes his accomplishments more impressive, not less.

One way to show it is the nationalities in the field at majors. Here's a mid-career Masters win for Jack. Almost every player listed there (former champs in the field and final leaderboard) is American except for one South African (Player) and two Australians. Golf was almost exclusively a game played in those three countries, or at least played seriously by enough people to produce top-tier professionals. And if you think I'm cherry-picking change the year to 1973 or 1974 or whatever, you'll see the same thing.

Here's a mid-career Masters win for Tiger. Looks a little different. And again, try some other years around then and you'll see the same thing. Spain, England, Argentina, South Korea, Germany, Fiji, and on and on, in addition to more South Africans and Australians.

This kind of stuff makes it hard to compare cross-era, but if you insist on it, it's pretty clear that the fields Tiger was beating came from a much larger pool of aspiring pro golfers and therefore was easily deeper and better. The larger the talent pool the better the cream that rises to the top of it.
One could easily flip that around that if the top tier talent is more widespread, Tiger's non-major wins are less impressive than Jack's when his competition was teeing it up every week.

You bring some great arguments to the the table, it just seems like the GOAT needs to have a nemesis or two pushing them enough to make their accomplishment more memorable.

 
Whose balls will the Tiger fanbois swing from now?
Actually they will quit watching golf all together.

Rooting for Eldrick to get back in action asap. The game is just not the same when you aren't out there beaning some spectator with a tee shot, swinging the 7 iron so hard you rip muscle from bone in the deep rough, sculling a chip shot across the green and missing a 3 foot putt like you are Phil Mickelson.

 

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