Transgender People - The Basics (6 Viewers)

[Jayrod]

Part of the problem here is that you don't feel like a gender at all.  You just are that gender with no questions.  It's not ever something you have to think about.  But when the the outside just doens't match with what you know you are, it just feels wrong. 

How does one "know" something that is contrary to the physical truth?  How does anyone "feel" like a gender then?

It is such a foreign concept I just can't grasp the meaning.

 

[tonydead]

I think you are/were going to become a pastor?  That's not an option if you woke up with a woman's body.   HTH

 

[Jayrod]

That may be difficult to understand at first.  It may be easier to simply say "well, some people feel so strongly about it that they feel they have to change their bodies to fit and I don't - so at least I know there's something I don't know."  That can be a really strong starting point.

I'm already there, which is why I started this thread.

Unfortunately, I don't feel like I've gotten any further along. 

 

[Henry Ford]

There's a philosophical question that doesn't really have a defined answer - when does a "body" stop being a "body"?  Let's say you find a dead body.  And it's clearly a dead body, it's the whole thing.  

Now let's say you found a body without the arms.  Is it still a body?  Most would say "yes" I think.  A body missing the arms.  That's what you'd say in the papers.  

What if it was missing its head? And legs? And it was only half of a torso?  At what point is it not a "body" and instead it's "half of a torso" or "a torso with one leg attached"? 

The answer is pretty individualized. Kind of like "would I still be me if I weren't physically me."

 

[Henry Ford]

I'm already there, which is why I started this thread.

Unfortunately, I don't feel like I've gotten any further along. 

It's a pretty complex issue.  Saying "I don't know" is really a great start.  Well begun is half done.

 

[Henry Ford]

Perhaps watching old episodes of Quantum Leap would help.

 

[Bull Dozier]

I honestly can't pinpoint anything specific that isn't related to physiological makeup or sexual desires (which I'm told is unrelated).

I'm not trying to be stubborn, I honestly don't understand the very foundational basis of what it means to "feel" like a different gender.

Where I'm trying to get is that if you can acknowledge what it feels like to be of your gender, you would be able to understand how that self identification would feel off.  But if all you're willing to acknowledge that makes you feel like a man is being attracted to women and your genitalia, then we're not going to make progress on that point.

 

[tonydead]

How does one "know" something that is contrary to the physical truth?  How does anyone "feel" like a gender then?

It is such a foreign concept I just can't grasp the meaning.

I don't know that who I am is that connected to my body.  I am me inside and my body that I exist in is my own body.  If I have breasts and a ###### and were less muscular and smaller, I don't think I would be a different person.  Personality and likes/dislikes would remain,  the vast majority of which are not gender specific.  In fact, I think about the only truly gender specific thing about me is my sexual orientation which I understand is a separate issue.

The two bold don't jive.

It's you but what you see as the physical truth feels like it's lying.  

 

[EYLive]

I think you are/were going to become a pastor?  That's not an option if you woke up with a woman's body.   HTH

No, that doesn't help. You're just making things up or trolling and it's counterproductive. 

 

[Jayrod]

Where I'm trying to get is that if you can acknowledge what it feels like to be of your gender, you would be able to understand how that self identification would feel off.  But if all you're willing to acknowledge that makes you feel like a man is being attracted to women and your genitalia, then we're not going to make progress on that point.

Am I wrong?  Explain to me where.  I literally can't think of anything else that is "gender" specific besides what our society has labeled as male/female tenancies, none of which are universal or even consistent in today's society, nor related to physical gender.

 

[Jayrod]

No, that doesn't help. You're just making things up or trolling and it's counterproductive. 

I typed out a couple of replies, but just chose to ignore it.

 

[Jayrod]

The two bold don't jive.

It's you but what you see as the physical truth feels like it's lying.  

Point taken.  Maybe this is my confusion.  I keep coming back to gender being ultimately a physical thing with our personality and personal tastes being separate from that.  Are they more tied than I am admitting?  Maybe.  I just don't understand how.

I feel like a man because I like to watch sports?

I feel like a man because I enjoy playing violent video games?

I feel like a man because I laugh at crude jokes?

We know none of that actually defines what it is to be male. Sure they are more present in greater frequency among men, but it is hardly a gender issue, but a matter of taste or preference.

The answer I keep hearing is that there is a sum total of all of those things that determine some kind of internal gender.  If that is really what people are saying, then I don't feel like I understand.

 

[Bull Dozier]

Point taken.  Maybe this is my confusion.  I keep coming back to gender being ultimately a physical thing with our personality and personal tastes being separate from that.  Are they more tied than I am admitting?  Maybe.  I just don't understand how.

I feel like a man because I like to watch sports?

I feel like a man because I enjoy playing violent video games?

I feel like a man because I laugh at crude jokes?

We know none of that actually defines what it is to be male. Sure they are more present in greater frequency among men, but it is hardly a gender issue, but a matter of taste or preference.

The answer I keep hearing is that there is a sum total of all of those things that determine some kind of internal gender.  If that is really what people are saying, then I don't feel like I understand.

Here's an example.  My facial hair makes me feel masculine.  Now, don't get me wrong, I can't really grow a beard or mustache.  Most 15 year old boys have better facial hair than me.  But, I don't shave all weekend just so I can get a faint 5:00 shadow look by Sunday night.  While some men may be annoyed with having to shave, I would wager most would feel like their beard makes them feel like a man, manly, masculine, whatever.

Now, imagine waking up in the morning, looking in the mirror and thinking "ew, that is gross, I have to shave that off right away so I don't have to look at it or feel it."  That's just a small example, but I would think that is the type of thing, repeated over and over again with different traits, desires, etc., that would make someone feel like they were in the wrong body.

 

[Ilov80s]

I'm not sure this exercise is getting there.

I'm just really struggling with what would make me different other than who I want to have sex with (and the frequency with which I consider sex).

Tomorrow you could wear your wife's clothes, makeup, etc and go about your day. That might help you begin to understand how young transgendered people feel.  

 

[Ilov80s]

I'm already there, which is why I started this thread.

Unfortunately, I don't feel like I've gotten any further along. 

That's ok, I will never understand devoutly religious people's motivations but I don't have to understand them to respect them and their actions.

 

[EYLive]

That's ok, I will never understand devoutly religious people's motivations but I don't have to understand them to respect them and their actions.

Not to go off on a tangent... but this is odd. For a reasonably intelligent adult to never understand religious motivation seems kinda lazy cuz it's really not very complicated.

 

[Ilov80s]

Not to go off on a tangent... but this is odd. For a reasonably intelligent adult to never understand religious motivation seems kinda lazy cuz it's really not very complicated.

Maybe I'm unreasonably intelligent? Or reasonably unintelligent? 

Either way- I shouldn't have brought up religion, I don't want to derail. 

 

[Henry Ford]

Point taken.  Maybe this is my confusion.  I keep coming back to gender being ultimately a physical thing with our personality and personal tastes being separate from that.  Are they more tied than I am admitting?  Maybe.  I just don't understand how.

I feel like a man because I like to watch sports?

I feel like a man because I enjoy playing violent video games?

I feel like a man because I laugh at crude jokes?

We know none of that actually defines what it is to be male. Sure they are more present in greater frequency among men, but it is hardly a gender issue, but a matter of taste or preference.

The answer I keep hearing is that there is a sum total of all of those things that determine some kind of internal gender.  If that is really what people are saying, then I don't feel like I understand.

I think it depends a lot on your personal view of what masculinity and manhood are. For many people, that’s bound up in a physical body in an least some sense.  

 

[Henry Ford]

Your sex is determined at conception

Please share the definition of male and female as determined at conception in such as way as it encompasses all people. 

 

[Rick James]

So my niece was born a boy. An identical twin at that. From as early as they could express themselves she wanted to hang out with her older sister, play with dolls, paint her nails, play princess, etc. Her brother is such a typical boy: loves sports,  fighting, army stuff, etc. 

Then came the questions: why do I have a penis? I don't want it. Can I be Dorothy for Halloween? Will my penis go away? Mommy did you used to have a penis?

Then came the kids at school making fun of her for wanting to play with girls, doll, etc. She asked for a My Little Pony shirt when she was like 6 and then when we got it for her she cried and said she didn't want it anymore- she wanted Ironman stuff so the kids at school would be nice to her again. 

When she sees old pictures of herself, she asks did I have a penis then too? Does god sometime make mistakes with babies?

Then came depression and saying she wanted to die. Anyway she is in 2nd grade now, fully functions in society as a girl. Still is in therapy, has been to transgender camp and is getting better with her self esteem. 

There is zero doubt in my mind Kate is a girl and always was.

But why does "she" have to be a girl though? Can't your nephew just have interests that are more feminine and call it a day? Like when the boy was asking if his penis will go away, what did the parents say? I figure something like "your penis doesn't define what interests you can have" and leave it at that

 

[Briman]

.

 

[Henry Ford]

But why does "she" have to be a girl though? Can't your nephew just have interests that are more feminine and call it a day? Like when the boy was asking if his penis will go away, what did the parents say? I figure something like "your penis doesn't define what interests you can have" and leave it at that

Well, it certainly influences how you feel if one of your interests is in not having a penis.

 

[Stuart Ullman]

This issue is continuing to grow and move its way into every part of our society.  I am a very conservative religious individual, but I honestly want to understand where trans people come from.  I feel like I have no idea what is going on and can't even grasp the very basics of the issue.

To start I just have to ask some questions that may seem basic to some, but I do not know the actual answers.

1. What does it mean for someone to "feel like" they are a specific gender?
   
2. How do we define what constitutes someone being a different gender than their natural sex (if that's even the correct term)?
   
3. Is it tied to sexual orientation? (I think I know this, but want to make sure)
   
4. How much of it is emotional, psychological, physiological, etc.?
   
5. Who decides what the answers to these questions are?
   

When dealing with the societal ramifications of transgender people, I think a full understanding of what we are even talking about is important.

I'll hang up and listen.

It’s really not permeating in society. Who runs Hollywood? There’s your answer.

 

[Ilov80s]

But why does "she" have to be a girl though? Can't your nephew just have interests that are more feminine and call it a day? Like when the boy was asking if his penis will go away, what did the parents say? I figure something like "your penis doesn't define what interests you can have" and leave it at that

She’s a kid who feels like she is a girl and wants to be accepted as a girl. She wants to wear dresses and play on the girls soccer team with other girls because boys are gross. 

 

[Ilov80s]

It’s really not permeating in society. Who runs Hollywood? There’s your answer.

I’ve worked with a few transgendered kids as well as my niece so it’s something that real people are dealing with.

 

[Stuart Ullman]

I’ve worked with a few transgendered kids as well as my niece so it’s something that real people are dealing with.

Oh, I’m sure it’s a real thing. Whether it’s societal, hormonal, or whatever.

We all knew Tom Boys and Sallys back from grade school. Instead of letting these people grow up and sort these feelings out, nowadays we pump them full of hormones.

It’s where we’ve progressed as a society. For better or worse? I don’t know but just like these mass shootings, I theorize that it’s the overexposure of these issues by the media that are increasing the frequency of these events.

Kids sit on TV and the internet, all day every day.

 

[Ilov80s]

Oh, I’m sure it’s a real thing. Whether it’s societal, hormonal, or whatever.

We all knew Tom Boys and Sallys back from grade school. Instead of letting these people grow up and sort these feelings out, nowadays we pump them full of hormones.

It’s where we’ve progressed as a society. For better or worse? I don’t know but just like these mass shootings, I theorize that it’s the overexposure of these issues by the media that are increasing the frequency of these events.

Kids sit on TV and the internet, all day every day.

She’s not on any hormones at all 

 

[Stuart Ullman]

She’s not on any hormones at all 

In my opinion, that is fantastic. God bless you and your family.

 

[Ilov80s]

In my opinion, that is fantastic. God bless you and your family.

Thanks. She might in the future but she’s 8, there’s no need. All of this started when she was 2 (we thought maybe “he” was going to be gay) but by about 5 it was causing serious mental emotional problems. It still does- she is always worried someone will mistake her for a boy and she gets really anxious about seeing people that knew her before as Henry. She’s worried they won’t accept her as Kate. Luckily people have been pretty cool about it- including her 90 year old devoutly Catholic great grandmother.

 

[Joe Summer]

Stuart Ullman said:

We all knew Tom Boys and Sallys back from grade school. Instead of letting these people grow up and sort these feelings out, nowadays we pump them full of hormones.

What is your point here?

A very small percentage of gay people decide to identify as heterosexual later in life. Does that mean that homosexuality is a myth?

 

[simey]

Oh, I’m sure it’s a real thing. Whether it’s societal, hormonal, or whatever.

We all knew Tom Boys and Sallys back from grade school. Instead of letting these people grow up and sort these feelings out, nowadays we pump them full of hormones.

A tomboy is not a girl that needs to sort through feelings. Me, my sister, and many of our female childhood friends were tomboys. We played with dolls, but we also climbed trees and built treehouses, played in the creek looking for tadpoles and minnows, did sports,  road bikes, fished, played kick the can, etc. We had a pack of friends that were girls and boys, and we all hung out and played together.  A tomboy is not a girl who feels like she is a boy.

 

[Henry Ford]

It’s really not permeating in society. Who runs Hollywood? There’s your answer.

Huh.  I'd be interested in your answer to the question.  Who runs Hollywood in your estimation?

 

[Stuart Ullman]

I have nothing else to say. These are social issues that come with humanity.

Same problems that have existed for centuries, different solutions. What is accepted will always be dictated by science and society.

I’m totally cool with giving kids HGH so they grow up to be tall and strong with high levels of confidence. Same rationale here.

 

[Rick James]

Well, it certainly influences how you feel if one of your interests is in not having a penis.

She’s a kid who feels like she is a girl and wants to be accepted as a girl. She wants to wear dresses and play on the girls soccer team with other girls because boys are gross. 

You said she's just now in 2nd grade, meaning she felt these things as early as what, 3-4 years old? Just seems like a lot...to let a toddler decide he wants to change sexes

 

[LoadLetterPaper]

You guys okay with it, are as freaky as they are.

 

[Henry Ford]

You said she's just now in 2nd grade, meaning she felt these things as early as what, 3-4 years old? Just seems like a lot...to let a toddler decide he wants to change sexes

I think the feelings were from that age but it doesn’t sound like they immediately jumped to transitioning. 

And I hadn’t really thought about it before, but at that age there are virtually no large or long term consequences compared to an attempted transition post puberty. No hormones, no driver’s license or anything. Just, what, buy the kid a new wardrobe?  

 

[Henry Ford]

You guys okay with it, are as freaky as they are.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Last week we had Midsummer Night's Dream and today Hamlet.  I like it.  personally I am more of a Macbeth or King Lear kind of guy but good stuff.

 

[ProstheticRGK]

You guys okay with it, are as freaky as they are.

You guys not ok with it, strike me as really repressed and creepy. For the life of me, I cannot understand why you’d want to add to the struggles of another human being that already walks a difficult road. Or why it would even matter to you, anyway.

 

[Henry Ford]

Last week we had Midsummer Night's Dream and today Hamlet.  I like it.  personally I am more of a Macbeth or King Lear kind of guy but good stuff.

I’m usually a Tempest man myself. 

The cloud-capp’d towers, the gorgeous palaces, 
The solemn temples, the great globe itself, 
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve 
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, 
Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff 
As dreams are made on, and our little life 
Is rounded with a sleep.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I’m usually a Tempest man myself. 

The cloud-capp’d towers, the gorgeous palaces, 
The solemn temples, the great globe itself, 
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve 
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, 
Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff 
As dreams are made on, and our little life 
Is rounded with a sleep.

One of my favorites, even when misquoted as "of" rather than "on"

Naught’s had, all’s spent,

Where our desire is got without content.

'Tis safer to be that which we destroy

Than by destruction dwell in doubtful joy. -  Lady Macbeth knew ####.

 

[Henry Ford]

One of my favorites, even when misquoted as "of" rather than "on"

Naught’s had, all’s spent,

Where our desire is got without content.

'Tis safer to be that which we destroy

Than by destruction dwell in doubtful joy. -  Lady Macbeth knew ####.

Always wanted a dog named spot.  Just so when I’m yelling I could scream “out, damned spot! Out I say!”

 

[Ilov80s]

You said she's just now in 2nd grade, meaning she felt these things as early as what, 3-4 years old? Just seems like a lot...to let a toddler decide he wants to change sexes

There were hints as soon as she started having any kind of personality and ability to express herself. I’d say it’s been about 1.5 years maybe that she started going by Kate, dressing as a girl, etc. It definitely was a big decision but she was threatening to kill her self, was depressed and didn’t want to go to school, etc. Something needed to happen. Her parents were supportive because it made total sense. She had always acted like a girl. 

 

[Henry Ford]

There were hints as soon as she started having any kind of personality and ability to express herself. I’d say it’s been about 1.5 years maybe that she started going by Kate, dressing as a girl, etc. It definitely was a big decision but she was threatening to kill her self, was depressed and didn’t want to go to school, etc. Something needed to happen. Her parents were supportive because it made total sense. She had always acted like a girl. 

That’s ultimately what many times gets parents on board.  When they realize they can have a dead son or a live daughter.  

 

[Henry Ford]

New study from the University of Liege in Belgium has findings that suggest that children who are transgender have brains (brain activity viewed through an MRI) that more closely resemble their identity gender than their birth sex.  Apparently just recently presented at a conference.  I haven't seen the study yet, but when I find it I'll try to remember to come back and link it.

 

[Radio Free Homer]

It’s really not permeating in society. Who runs Hollywood? There’s your answer.

What do the Jews have to do with this?

 

[Ilov80s]

New study from the University of Liege in Belgium has findings that suggest that children who are transgender have brains (brain activity viewed through an MRI) that more closely resemble their identity gender than their birth sex.  Apparently just recently presented at a conference.  I haven't seen the study yet, but when I find it I'll try to remember to come back and link it.

I believe this isn’t the first study to show this (or it’s just that this article is later to the story). I posted about this in another thread and wondered what a certain “intellectual” had to say about it. I would like to see the details of the study though. 

 

[E Street Brat]

What you've been told about "sex" and "gender" since you were in elementary school is at best an oversimplification, and at worst a series of very definite lies.  

I would imagine you've been told something to the effect of "If you are born with XX Chromosomes you are always female, and XY Chromosomes you are always male."  This is not true.  Scientifically, it is not true.

That's not what the link says at all.

 

[E Street Brat]

If we decide and agree that sex and gender are two different things. I concept I'm still working on personally. Can we at least agree that there two sexes and two genders?

Facebook now has 71 genders to choose from. There a lot of coming to accept some of these ideas that are foreign to them. And #### like this just doesn't help. 

Agender

Androgyne

Androgynous

Bigender

Cis

Cisgender

Cis Female

Cis Male

Cis Man

Cis Woman

Cisgender Female

Cisgender Male

Cisgender Man

Cisgender Woman

Female to Male

FTM

Gender Fluid

Gender Nonconforming

Gender Questioning

Gender Variant

Genderqueer

Intersex

Male to Female

MTF

Neither

Neutrois

Non-binary

Other

Pangender

Trans

Trans*

Trans Female

Trans* Female

Trans Male

Trans* Male

Trans Man

Trans* Man

Trans Person

Trans* Person

Trans Woman

Trans* Woman

Transfeminine

Transgender

Transgender Female

Transgender Male

Transgender Man

Transgender Person

Transgender Woman

Transmasculine

Transsexual

Transsexual Female

Transsexual Male

Transsexual Man

Transsexual Person

Transsexual Woman

Two-Spirit

 

[Henry Ford]

That's not what the link says at all.

Check the notes on the edit.  I had to change the link from the actual scientific study. It had genitals. 

It is absolutely a fact that xx and xy do not definitively identify sex.