War in Israel (1 Viewer)

[The Duff Man]

I imagine that days after 9/11 it wasn’t the right time to talk about how US foreign policy in the previous decades might have contributed to the motivation for the attacks, especially when talking to New Yorkers.

Probably the same situation here, made even more challenging adding religion into the pot.

It is an emotional topic for many.

 

[Phil Elliott]

It seems an appropriate comment for those supporting Palestinians is "I support Palestine, but reject Hamas and the killing of innocent civilians".

 

[Jayrod]

This too: "You cannot keep two million people living in the conditions people in Gaza are living in and expect peace. You can't. And you shouldn’t. Their environment is antithetical to the human condition. Violent rebellion is guaranteed. Guaranteed. As sure as the sun rising."

Who is responsible for this?

It sure as heck isn't all Israel's fault.

Iran, Hamas, the Palestinians themselves have built their world in Gaza with one goal in mind, to go after Israel.

They made their bed and are going to lie in it. This was intentional. Millions of dollars spent on Rockets and guns instead of infrastructure. Training soldiers instead of farmers. They did this to themselves specifically so they could try and get the world to sympathize and many are falling for it.

Equally as ridiculous is conflating the land grab in the West Bank with Gaza.

Israel doesn't care to settle Gaza and has zero settlements there so why is it being used to "justify" Hamas?

Nothing in the quote says anything that you are attempting to make it say.

If you think Israel has clean hands in this, then there really isn't anything further to discuss. It will just be circular arguments.

Yet your post says it all, you think Hamas has "reasons".

I mean just say it @Snotbubbles
This attack was justified in your eyes.

You and several others are in here using whataboutism, saying Israel is doing "ethnic cleansing", etc all DAYS after a horrific terrorist attack.

I'm done here. Anti-Semites gonna anti-Semite I guess

Joe, mods, whoever can just ban me because I'm not playing nice with the likes of these guys. If you think the Jews are to blame for any of this, you are willfully ignorant or just plain stupid.

I really think you’re overreacting to the comments made by @Snotbubbles. He never said the attack was justified. He never wrote anything antisemitic.

No, no of course not.

He just posted a tweet that Israel committed atrocities and therefore aren't "innocent". I mean, yeah their kids are being killed and they've never done anything remotely like this attack to Palestinians, but their hands aren't clean and everyone needs to know that right now and be very clear about that within days of the attack.

Sure he and the others aren't. Sure it is OK to call what the Jews do to defend their very existence as genocide and ethnic cleansing despite the Palestinians reproducing like rabbits. Sure it is important to bring up property seizures in the West Bank after an attack from Gaza because the two are directly related, right?

 

[timschochet]

This reminds me strongly of the days immediately after 9/11. If anyone questioned what would have motivated the terrorists, and if there were policy choices America could have taken to avoid such enmity, they were branded unpatriotic.

 

[timschochet]

I imagine that days after 9/11 it wasn’t the right time to talk about how US foreign policy in the previous decades might have contributed to the motivation for the attacks, especially when talking to New Yorkers.

Probably the same situation here, made even more challenging adding religion into the pot.

It is an emotional topic for many.

Beat me to it

 

[Andy Dufresne]

"This didn't happen in a bubble" is factually true.

Saying as much doesn't keep one from sounding like one is saying "She was dressed provocatively, she had it coming to her."

 

[Jayrod]

"This didn't happen in a bubble" is factually true.

Saying as much doesn't keep one from sounding like one is saying "She was dressed provocatively, she had it coming to her."

But it does sound an awful lot like "it was justified".

 

[IvanKaramazov]

It seems an appropriate comment for those supporting Palestinians is "I support Palestine, but reject Hamas and the killing of innocent civilians".

Honestly, this is very "sus," as the kids say.

When Russian armor was rolling into Ukraine, how would you have reacted to someone who put a little Russian flag in their bio and started suddenly waxing poetic about the dignity of the good, hard-working citizens of Russia who shouldn't all be lumped in with Putin, along with hair-splitting and out-of-context interpretations of international law that coincidently seem to all have the effect of tying the hands of Ukraine?

We all know bad-faith concern trolling when we see it. This isn't our first trip to the internet.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

"This didn't happen in a bubble" is factually true.

Saying as much doesn't keep one from sounding like one is saying "She was dressed provocatively, she had it coming to her."

But it does sound an awful lot like "it was justified".

That's what I said.

 

[Jayrod]

"This didn't happen in a bubble" is factually true.

Saying as much doesn't keep one from sounding like one is saying "She was dressed provocatively, she had it coming to her."

But it does sound an awful lot like "it was justified".

That's what I said.

Sorry, I'm on a roll.

 

[The Commish]

This reminds me strongly of the days immediately after 9/11. If anyone questioned what would have motivated the terrorists, and if there were policy choices America could have taken to avoid such enmity, they were branded unpatriotic.

we were branded lots of things....and then when we said going into Iraq wasn't a good idea, it got worse.

 

[HellToupee]

As I’ve aged I’ve become anti-war but this has me rethinking things.This heinous evil act has to be dealt with.
After seeing how they breached the security wall I don’t believe this was a hamas only operation, hope I’m wrong

 

[timschochet]

This too: "You cannot keep two million people living in the conditions people in Gaza are living in and expect peace. You can't. And you shouldn’t. Their environment is antithetical to the human condition. Violent rebellion is guaranteed. Guaranteed. As sure as the sun rising."

Who is responsible for this?

It sure as heck isn't all Israel's fault.

Iran, Hamas, the Palestinians themselves have built their world in Gaza with one goal in mind, to go after Israel.

They made their bed and are going to lie in it. This was intentional. Millions of dollars spent on Rockets and guns instead of infrastructure. Training soldiers instead of farmers. They did this to themselves specifically so they could try and get the world to sympathize and many are falling for it.

Equally as ridiculous is conflating the land grab in the West Bank with Gaza.

Israel doesn't care to settle Gaza and has zero settlements there so why is it being used to "justify" Hamas?

Nothing in the quote says anything that you are attempting to make it say.

If you think Israel has clean hands in this, then there really isn't anything further to discuss. It will just be circular arguments.

Yet your post says it all, you think Hamas has "reasons".

I mean just say it @Snotbubbles
This attack was justified in your eyes.

You and several others are in here using whataboutism, saying Israel is doing "ethnic cleansing", etc all DAYS after a horrific terrorist attack.

I'm done here. Anti-Semites gonna anti-Semite I guess

Joe, mods, whoever can just ban me because I'm not playing nice with the likes of these guys. If you think the Jews are to blame for any of this, you are willfully ignorant or just plain stupid.

I really think you’re overreacting to the comments made by @Snotbubbles. He never said the attack was justified. He never wrote anything antisemitic.

No, no of course not.

He just posted a tweet that Israel committed atrocities and therefore aren't "innocent". I mean, yeah their kids are being killed and they've never done anything remotely like this attack to Palestinians, but their hands aren't clean and everyone needs to know that right now and be very clear about that within days of the attack.

Sure he and the others aren't. Sure it is OK to call what the Jews do to defend their very existence as genocide and ethnic cleansing despite the Palestinians reproducing like rabbits. Sure it is important to bring up property seizures in the West Bank after an attack from Gaza because the two are directly related, right?

I am 100% with you that the acts of Hamas are savage, barbaric, and evil. I am 100% with you that every member of the leadership of Hamas deserves to die.

But in larger terms I think there is more nuance than you’re allowing. And I do not think it’s a good idea for Israel to invade Gaza and start killing people indiscriminately. I believe that will make things far worse. It’s not only a question of whether the people of Gaza deserve it, it’s also a question of whether such actions benefit Israel. I don’t think they do.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Sharing this again that was posted earlier.

Seems like a pretty thorough take. https://www.readtangle.com/israel-attacks-hamas-palestine-war/

You can scroll down that page to the "My Take" section to read his person opinions on it.

 

[Jayrod]

I am 100% with you that the acts of Hamas are savage, barbaric, and evil. I am 100% with you that every member of the leadership of Hamas deserves to die.

But in larger terms I think there is more nuance than you’re allowing. And I do not think it’s a good idea for Israel to invade Gaza and start killing people indiscriminately. I believe that will make things far worse. It’s not only a question of whether the people of Gaza deserve it, it’s also a question of whether such actions benefit Israel. I don’t think they do.

I don't disagree with you at all here.

I'm not saying it will be a net positive, but I'm saying it is what they WILL do. Israel is going to walk through Gaza via tanks & drones or even boots and make sure no sign of Hamas exists in that area again and they aren't going to willingly leave for a long time, if ever.

 

[timschochet]

It seems an appropriate comment for those supporting Palestinians is "I support Palestine, but reject Hamas and the killing of innocent civilians".

Honestly, this is very "sus," as the kids say.

When Russian armor was rolling into Ukraine, how would you have reacted to someone who put a little Russian flag in their bio and started suddenly waxing poetic about the dignity of the good, hard-working citizens of Russia who shouldn't all be lumped in with Putin, along with hair-splitting and out-of-context interpretations of international law that coincidently seem to all have the effect of tying the hands of Ukraine?

We all know bad-faith concern trolling when we see it. This isn't our first trip to the internet.

If Ukraine was ten times as powerful as Russia, and had responded to the invasion by the indiscriminate starvation and murder of Russian civilians Im pretty sure there would be plenty of criticism for Ukraine and it might be well deserved.

But I regard Ukraine, and Israel, as the good guys in these affairs. But that judgment has to be conditional. Good guys have to act like good guys, or they are no longer good guys.

 

[Joe Bryant]

This reminds me strongly of the days immediately after 9/11. If anyone questioned what would have motivated the terrorists, and if there were policy choices America could have taken to avoid such enmity, they were branded unpatriotic.

we were branded lots of things....and then when we said going into Iraq wasn't a good idea, it got worse.

Lots of things were said on lots of sides. I remember it pretty clearly as my congressman, John Duncan, an influential Republican who voted against it. Something I agreed with him on.

Let's not derail this to that though.

 

[the moops]

It's time to wean Ukraine off the American teat and pound Iran back to the stone age.

BINGO eliminate the enablement in the region and you will have very little of this occurring

Very little of what occurring? Russia would just stand down if we weren't sending aid to Ukraine? Iran and Hamas wouldn't do what exactly if we stopped sending aid to Israel?

 

[timschochet]

During the Tet Offensive in 1968, the Viet Cong performed acts of savagery in Hue that were unreal. They bayoneted thousands of people, drowned them in rivers-women, children, babies included. It was the worst act of that entire bloody war. A few weeks later, an American battalion entered a small village called My Lai and ended up slaughtering a few dozen Vietnamese.

The news media paid huge attention to My Lai but scant attention to the Hue massacre, Many in this country demanded angrily to know why we were paying attention to one and not the other. The answer is simple: because we are the good guys, and more is expected of us. We need to behave better than murderous criminals do and we cannot allow them to provoke us into behaving like they do. That’s the lesson of My Lai and I hope the Israelis think about what they are about to do next.

 

[Fat Nick]

This reminds me strongly of the days immediately after 9/11. If anyone questioned what would have motivated the terrorists, and if there were policy choices America could have taken to avoid such enmity, they were branded unpatriotic.

Yep. This type of thinking really wears on me. I always try and have a well-rounded view of situations. Very few situations are black and white or clearly one sided, but a lot of opinions are. To completely ignore the stance of the other side is a failure to understand in my eyes, and certainly not equal to unequivocally siding with the other side.

I'll also echo that we need to be specific when referring to groups noted in this thread. As I've said before Hamas ≠ Palestine. I think we can all agree Hamas deserves to go to ****...but I'm certainly not of the mindset that every Palestinian in Gaza does. Let's just be careful to be more specific with our "they" pronouns.

 

[Balco]

I am 100% with you that the acts of Hamas are savage, barbaric, and evil. I am 100% with you that every member of the leadership of Hamas deserves to die.

But in larger terms I think there is more nuance than you’re allowing. And I do not think it’s a good idea for Israel to invade Gaza and start killing people indiscriminately. I believe that will make things far worse. It’s not only a question of whether the people of Gaza deserve it, it’s also a question of whether such actions benefit Israel. I don’t think they do.

I don't disagree with you at all here.

I'm not saying it will be a net positive, but I'm saying it is what they WILL do. Israel is going to walk through Gaza via tanks & drones or even boots and make sure no sign of Hamas exists in that area again and they aren't going to willingly leave for a long time, if ever.

Most of the leaders of Hamas and many of their soldiers aren’t in Gaza. This was something planned for a long time.

 

[Jayrod]

But in larger terms I think there is more nuance than you’re allowing. And I do not think it’s a good idea for Israel to invade Gaza and start killing people indiscriminately. I believe that will make things far worse. It’s not only a question of whether the people of Gaza deserve it, it’s also a question of whether such actions benefit Israel. I don’t think they do.

I don't disagree with you at all here.

I'm not saying it will be a net positive, but I'm saying it is what they WILL do. Israel is going to walk through Gaza via tanks & drones or even boots and make sure no sign of Hamas exists in that area again and they aren't going to willingly leave for a long time, if ever.

Most of the leaders of Hamas and many of their soldiers aren’t in Gaza. This was something planned for a long time.

Mossad will be on the job until it is done.

 

[the moops]

A few weeks later, an American battalion entered a small village called My Lai and ended up slaughtering a few dozen Vietnamese.

Jesus dude. Talk about whitewashing what the Americans did.

Between 347 and 504 civilians were killed by U.S. soldiers from Company C, 1st Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment and Company B, 4th Battalion, 3rd Infantry Regiment, 11th Brigade, 23rd (Americal) Infantry Division. Victims included men, women, children, and infants. Some of the women were gang-raped and their bodies mutilated, and some soldiers mutilated and raped children who were as young as 12.[2][3] It is the largest publicized massacre of civilians by U.S. forces in the 20th century.[4]

 

[Balco]

But in larger terms I think there is more nuance than you’re allowing. And I do not think it’s a good idea for Israel to invade Gaza and start killing people indiscriminately. I believe that will make things far worse. It’s not only a question of whether the people of Gaza deserve it, it’s also a question of whether such actions benefit Israel. I don’t think they do.

I don't disagree with you at all here.

I'm not saying it will be a net positive, but I'm saying it is what they WILL do. Israel is going to walk through Gaza via tanks & drones or even boots and make sure no sign of Hamas exists in that area again and they aren't going to willingly leave for a long time, if ever.

Most of the leaders of Hamas and many of their soldiers aren’t in Gaza. This was something planned for a long time.

Mossad will be on the job until it is done.

Don’t doubt it, but I think my point is they won’t be finding many hamas leaders in Gaza - they need to cut the head off the snake first and I don’t believe they can accomplish that by starting a ground war in Gaza.

Gather intelligence and find the big targets wherever they are hiding and don’t ask permission from the leaders of the countries they are hiding in.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I'll also echo that we need to be specific when referring to groups noted in this thread. As I've said before Hamas ≠ Palestine. I think we can all agree Hamas deserves to go to ****...but I'm certainly not of the mindset that every Palestinian in Gaza does. Let's just be careful to be more specific with our "they" pronouns.

When we want to war with Germany and Japan, nobody thought the aim was to kill every German citizen and every Japanese citizen. It was always about deposing their governments and installing new ones. Same with Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq. We all knew that civilians would die, of course, but the aim was not to kill German, etc. citizens who were just trying to get by.

It is bizarre to me that people get hung up on this point ONLY in this one specific context.

I will tell you straight up that my ancestors immigrated here from Germany back in the late 1800s. I grew up in a very distinctly German neighborhood. My sense is that anybody who went on and on about the peaceful people of Germany and how they're not all Nazis would have caught an ***-kicking back in the 40s and it would have been well deserved. That's not fooling anybody.

Obviously I don't know exactly what Israel is cooking up at the moment, but I assume we're talking about an operation designed to kill everybody associated with Hamas. That's a perfectly appropriate and proportional goal, just like it was fine to track down and kill or imprison every Nazi we could find. What happens to Germany/Gaza afterward will be sorted out in time just like in every conflict.

 

[tommyGunZ]

It seems an appropriate comment for those supporting Palestinians is "I support Palestine, but reject Hamas and the killing of innocent civilians".

Honestly, this is very "sus," as the kids say.

When Russian armor was rolling into Ukraine, how would you have reacted to someone who put a little Russian flag in their bio and started suddenly waxing poetic about the dignity of the good, hard-working citizens of Russia who shouldn't all be lumped in with Putin, along with hair-splitting and out-of-context interpretations of international law that coincidently seem to all have the effect of tying the hands of Ukraine?

We all know bad-faith concern trolling when we see it. This isn't our first trip to the internet.

I don't find this analogy fitting at all. To be clear, if Ukraine fought back the Russian offensive, then went into Russia and were murdering/starving innocent Russian civilians, those of us who support Ukrainian independence would absolutely condemn their war crimes.

Virtually every person in this thread who is showing empathy for innocent Palestinians have also strongly condemned Hamas, called them terrorists, and agrees Israel is justified in bringing Hamas to justice. I would like to think even the most hard line Israelis also have empathy for innocent Palestinians, but unfortunately we know that human nature means emotions often trump rational thinking during these events.

 

[timschochet]

A few weeks later, an American battalion entered a small village called My Lai and ended up slaughtering a few dozen Vietnamese.

Jesus dude. Talk about whitewashing what the Americans did.

Between 347 and 504 civilians were killed by U.S. soldiers from Company C, 1st Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment and Company B, 4th Battalion, 3rd Infantry Regiment, 11th Brigade, 23rd (Americal) Infantry Division. Victims included men, women, children, and infants. Some of the women were gang-raped and their bodies mutilated, and some soldiers mutilated and raped children who were as young as 12.[2][3] It is the largest publicized massacre of civilians by U.S. forces in the 20th century.[4]

I’m going by memory. My point wasn’t to minimize it. I was trying to show that the good guys are expected to behave better.

 

[the moops]

A few weeks later, an American battalion entered a small village called My Lai and ended up slaughtering a few dozen Vietnamese.

Jesus dude. Talk about whitewashing what the Americans did.

Between 347 and 504 civilians were killed by U.S. soldiers from Company C, 1st Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment and Company B, 4th Battalion, 3rd Infantry Regiment, 11th Brigade, 23rd (Americal) Infantry Division. Victims included men, women, children, and infants. Some of the women were gang-raped and their bodies mutilated, and some soldiers mutilated and raped children who were as young as 12.[2][3] It is the largest publicized massacre of civilians by U.S. forces in the 20th century.[4]

I’m going by memory. My point wasn’t to minimize it. I was trying to show that the good guys are expected to behave better.

OK, but it came across as "not a big deal in comparison because it was only a few dozen Vietnamese", when in fact it was very much as gross and involved killing and raping children

 

[tommyGunZ]

I'll also echo that we need to be specific when referring to groups noted in this thread. As I've said before Hamas ≠ Palestine. I think we can all agree Hamas deserves to go to ****...but I'm certainly not of the mindset that every Palestinian in Gaza does. Let's just be careful to be more specific with our "they" pronouns.

When we want to war with Germany and Japan, nobody thought the aim was to kill every German citizen and every Japanese citizen. It was always about deposing their governments and installing new ones. Same with Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq. We all knew that civilians would die, of course, but the aim was not to kill German, etc. citizens who were just trying to get by.

It is bizarre to me that people get hung up on this point ONLY in this one specific context.

I will tell you straight up that my ancestors immigrated here from Germany back in the late 1800s. I grew up in a very distinctly German neighborhood. My sense is that anybody who went on and on about the peaceful people of Germany and how they're not all Nazis would have caught an ***-kicking back in the 40s and it would have been well deserved. That's not fooling anybody.

This seems ahistorical. Of course lots of people in each of those wars opposed killing innocent civilians and said so loudly. Just as many folks are stating now.

 

[dgreen]

I'll also echo that we need to be specific when referring to groups noted in this thread. As I've said before Hamas ≠ Palestine. I think we can all agree Hamas deserves to go to ****...but I'm certainly not of the mindset that every Palestinian in Gaza does. Let's just be careful to be more specific with our "they" pronouns.

When we want to war with Germany and Japan, nobody thought the aim was to kill every German citizen and every Japanese citizen. It was always about deposing their governments and installing new ones. Same with Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq. We all knew that civilians would die, of course, but the aim was not to kill German, etc. citizens who were just trying to get by.

It is bizarre to me that people get hung up on this point ONLY in this one specific context.

I will tell you straight up that my ancestors immigrated here from Germany back in the late 1800s. I grew up in a very distinctly German neighborhood. My sense is that anybody who went on and on about the peaceful people of Germany and how they're not all Nazis would have caught an ***-kicking back in the 40s and it would have been well deserved. That's not fooling anybody.

Obviously I don't know exactly what Israel is cooking up at the moment, but I assume we're talking about an operation designed to kill everybody associated with Hamas. That's a perfectly appropriate and proportional goal, just like it was fine to track down and kill or imprison every Nazi we could find. What happens to Germany/Gaza afterward will be sorted out in time just like in every conflict.

I think the language used matters. However, I also see it as annoying to think that I need to clarify every statement and spend a whole paragraph detailing exactly who I'm talking about. Broad labels are so much easier. But I think they also can cause harm when general society associates certain things with the broad labels.

I grew up thinking all Americans are great and all Soviets are horrible because that's how we talked about the cold war.

We went to war with the Japanese and then tons of innocent Japanese Americans were treated horribly simply because they fit in that Japanese basket that we were at war with and viewed as monsters. We've done it with Muslims and 9/11. Christians have done it with "the Jews killed Jesus". I don't see it as this one specific context. I think it's something we do regularly.

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt in what they are saying. So, if I see someone say that Palestinians are savages, I'd like to assume they are speaking of the specific group of people who would participate and celebrate the recent actions. But, the reality is that's not what some people mean. Some people associate all Palestinians with Hamas and all Israelis and Jews with the Israeli government. And when we use language like "the Palestinians" or "the Jews", less mature ears hear that and might reach a conclusion about a whole group of people.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I'll also echo that we need to be specific when referring to groups noted in this thread. As I've said before Hamas ≠ Palestine. I think we can all agree Hamas deserves to go to ****...but I'm certainly not of the mindset that every Palestinian in Gaza does. Let's just be careful to be more specific with our "they" pronouns.

When we want to war with Germany and Japan, nobody thought the aim was to kill every German citizen and every Japanese citizen. It was always about deposing their governments and installing new ones. Same with Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq. We all knew that civilians would die, of course, but the aim was not to kill German, etc. citizens who were just trying to get by.

It is bizarre to me that people get hung up on this point ONLY in this one specific context.

I will tell you straight up that my ancestors immigrated here from Germany back in the late 1800s. I grew up in a very distinctly German neighborhood. My sense is that anybody who went on and on about the peaceful people of Germany and how they're not all Nazis would have caught an ***-kicking back in the 40s and it would have been well deserved. That's not fooling anybody.

Obviously I don't know exactly what Israel is cooking up at the moment, but I assume we're talking about an operation designed to kill everybody associated with Hamas. That's a perfectly appropriate and proportional goal, just like it was fine to track down and kill or imprison every Nazi we could find. What happens to Germany/Gaza afterward will be sorted out in time just like in every conflict.

I think the language used matters. However, I also see it as annoying to think that I need to clarify every statement and spend a whole paragraph detailing exactly who I'm talking about. Broad labels are so much easier. But I think they also can cause harm when general society associates certain things with the broad labels.

I grew up thinking all Americans are great and all Soviets are horrible because that's how we talked about the cold war.

We went to war with the Japanese and then tons of innocent Japanese Americans were treated horribly simply because they fit in that Japanese basket that we were at war with and viewed as monsters. We've done it with Muslims and 9/11. Christians have done it with "the Jews killed Jesus". I don't see it as this one specific context. I think it's something we do regularly.

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt in what they are saying. So, if I see someone say that Palestinians are savages, I'd like to assume they are speaking of the specific group of people who would participate and celebrate the recent actions. But, the reality is that's not what some people mean. Some people associate all Palestinians with Hamas and all Israelis and Jews with the Israeli government. And when we use language like "the Palestinians" or "the Jews", less mature ears hear that and might reach a conclusion about a whole group of people.

Maybe, but it's weirder than that. I'm not going to go through and do this because it's unduly argumentative, but there are a ton of posts in this thread who seem to think that it's appropriate to keep count of how many civilians die on each side, and that one side is supposed to stop as soon as the score is tied. That is very manifestly not how any of this works. Israel is not, under any circumstances, justified in going into Gaza and decapitating infants just to settle the score. They are, however, justified in razing the entire town if that's what it takes to kill/capture every last Hamas militant. People are just thinking about this conflict in entirely the wrong way, in a very specific manner that I don't think would ever happen with different parties involved.

 

[parasaurolophus]

No one is supporting the acts that Hamas did to civilians. But you and a few others are lumping Hamas with all of the people in Gaza.

How many times do we have to see "eliminate X and the problem is solved" only to see that it's really "eliminate X and create a vacuum for the next group to step in and carry on the cause"? I am 49 years old and this has been the pattern, consistently in the ME for my ENTIRE life

These two statements are one of the biggest challenges here honestly. The original hatred between Palestine and Israel came from the Zionist movement and the creation of Israel - which in many cases displaced Palestinians against their free will. We're at a point where honestly, very few (if any) people in Hamas were ACTUALLY displaced in the original creation of Israel (they're not old enough). So the hatred from the current Hamas stems from the oppression they've felt living in the West Bank/Gaza, NOT from personal displacement from their homes. Now...the current Non-Hamas Palestinians unfortunately have new fuel for hatred of Jewish Israel driven by the bombing of their homes...It's cyclical, and I think very common within terroristic groups. As I said earlier, Hamas ≠ Gaza...but Hamas is IN Gaza. Attacking Hamas has civilian non-Hamas casualties. These civilians harbor resentment that leads to future attacks.

One could say "If Palestinians wanted to stop the suffering, they'd boot Hamas out of Gaza and negotiate for peace," but that's not easy...potentially just not possible. As The Commish said - you eliminate one group, and another takes its place.

I completely disagree that the hatred stems from current treatment. There is no way that Arabs all across the Middle East hate Israel and want to kill them all just because the Gaza strip has issues. Just no way. There is so much more to hatred of Israel and it started before 1947. In the 1930s kids were throwing rocks at Jews and adults were making them walk barefoot.

That hatred is deep and evil and is taught to their children and has been for longer than you or I or Israel have been around.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

ian bremmer@ianbremmer
us government announces immediate evacuation of embassy in beirut, tells all americans to leave lebanon.

So Bremmer really did post this, but he was mistaken apparently.

 

[beer 30]

I don't believe in absolutes and I absolutely don't believe this statement.

Imagine that we were not supporting Ukraine and/or there was no Russia invasion.

Would our support of Israel in this Hamas war look any different? Would we be sending troops or more aid? I honestly don't know, but I tend to believe that we are doing everything we feel we are able to do regarding Israel, and our support of Ukraine has no current bearing on that amount of support.

I don't think so and only because I don't see a scenario where the US would do much more than they are currently with the carrier group. We're not putting boots on the ground in Israel to assist in the eradication of Hamas pretty much ever.

So maybe you're right that Ukraine doesn't have anything to do with Israel. I just want to be done with Ukraine and move on to the next war I guess 'cause perpettual war and all.

 

[whoknew]

This too: "You cannot keep two million people living in the conditions people in Gaza are living in and expect peace. You can't. And you shouldn’t. Their environment is antithetical to the human condition. Violent rebellion is guaranteed. Guaranteed. As sure as the sun rising."

Who is responsible for this?

It sure as heck isn't all Israel's fault.

Iran, Hamas, the Palestinians themselves have built their world in Gaza with one goal in mind, to go after Israel.

They made their bed and are going to lie in it. This was intentional. Millions of dollars spent on Rockets and guns instead of infrastructure. Training soldiers instead of farmers. They did this to themselves specifically so they could try and get the world to sympathize and many are falling for it.

Equally as ridiculous is conflating the land grab in the West Bank with Gaza.

Israel doesn't care to settle Gaza and has zero settlements there so why is it being used to "justify" Hamas?

Nothing in the quote says anything that you are attempting to make it say.

If you think Israel has clean hands in this, then there really isn't anything further to discuss. It will just be circular arguments.

Yet your post says it all, you think Hamas has "reasons".

I mean just say it @Snotbubbles
This attack was justified in your eyes.

You and several others are in here using whataboutism, saying Israel is doing "ethnic cleansing", etc all DAYS after a horrific terrorist attack.

I'm done here. Anti-Semites gonna anti-Semite I guess

Joe, mods, whoever can just ban me because I'm not playing nice with the likes of these guys. If you think the Jews are to blame for any of this, you are willfully ignorant or just plain stupid.

I really think you’re overreacting to the comments made by @Snotbubbles. He never said the attack was justified. He never wrote anything antisemitic.

No, no of course not.

He just posted a tweet that Israel committed atrocities and therefore aren't "innocent". I mean, yeah their kids are being killed and they've never done anything remotely like this attack to Palestinians, but their hands aren't clean and everyone needs to know that right now and be very clear about that within days of the attack.

Sure he and the others aren't. Sure it is OK to call what the Jews do to defend their very existence as genocide and ethnic cleansing despite the Palestinians reproducing like rabbits. Sure it is important to bring up property seizures in the West Bank after an attack from Gaza because the two are directly related, right?

Just to be clear, I posted the tweet that I think you are referring to.

 

[dkp993]

I'm not familiar with Isaac Saul but I thought this (very long) tweet he made yesterday was excellent. And well worth reading.

Thanks for posting this.

x2 - this was very well said.

X3. Best commentary I’ve read.

Wow! What a tweet (or X). Fantastically written and makes a tons of great points. Thank you @whoknew for sharing it.

 

[Todem]

But in larger terms I think there is more nuance than you’re allowing. And I do not think it’s a good idea for Israel to invade Gaza and start killing people indiscriminately. I believe that will make things far worse. It’s not only a question of whether the people of Gaza deserve it, it’s also a question of whether such actions benefit Israel. I don’t think they do.

I don't disagree with you at all here.

I'm not saying it will be a net positive, but I'm saying it is what they WILL do. Israel is going to walk through Gaza via tanks & drones or even boots and make sure no sign of Hamas exists in that area again and they aren't going to willingly leave for a long time, if ever.

Most of the leaders of Hamas and many of their soldiers aren’t in Gaza. This was something planned for a long time.

Mossad will be on the job until it is done.

Don’t doubt it, but I think my point is they won’t be finding many hamas leaders in Gaza - they need to cut the head off the snake first and I don’t believe they can accomplish that by starting a ground war in Gaza.

Gather intelligence and find the big targets wherever they are hiding and don’t ask permission from the leaders of the countries they are hiding in.

Already being planned.

 

[Todem]

I'll also echo that we need to be specific when referring to groups noted in this thread. As I've said before Hamas ≠ Palestine. I think we can all agree Hamas deserves to go to ****...but I'm certainly not of the mindset that every Palestinian in Gaza does. Let's just be careful to be more specific with our "they" pronouns.

When we want to war with Germany and Japan, nobody thought the aim was to kill every German citizen and every Japanese citizen. It was always about deposing their governments and installing new ones. Same with Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq. We all knew that civilians would die, of course, but the aim was not to kill German, etc. citizens who were just trying to get by.

It is bizarre to me that people get hung up on this point ONLY in this one specific context.

I will tell you straight up that my ancestors immigrated here from Germany back in the late 1800s. I grew up in a very distinctly German neighborhood. My sense is that anybody who went on and on about the peaceful people of Germany and how they're not all Nazis would have caught an ***-kicking back in the 40s and it would have been well deserved. That's not fooling anybody.

Obviously I don't know exactly what Israel is cooking up at the moment, but I assume we're talking about an operation designed to kill everybody associated with Hamas. That's a perfectly appropriate and proportional goal, just like it was fine to track down and kill or imprison every Nazi we could find. What happens to Germany/Gaza afterward will be sorted out in time just like in every conflict.

Exactly what the goal is.

But we all know there is always going to be and I hate using this term because it’s cold “collateral damage”.

War is horrible.

But this is what the reality is thanks to this insidious murderous rampage by Hamas.

This is going to forever change the dynamics in Gaza during our lifetimes.

I am still waiting for 7 neighboring Arab nations to open their borders to take in the innocent Palestinians who would rather flee then potentially die.

 

[Fat Nick]

Can someone explain this dynamic to me? The below video shows Orthodox Jewish support of Palestine. I'm not well versed in the differences within the Jewish faith - what is the reasoning here? Is this wide-spread or just the opinion of a few?

Orthodox Jews show solidarity with Palestinians

 

[Stoneworker]

I am still waiting for 7 neighboring Arab nations to open their borders to take in the innocent Palestinians who would rather flee then potentially die.

Agreed. The fact that Egypt has shown no willingness to provide a refugee corridor says a lot.

 

[The Duff Man]

I am sitting here in North America and I wouldn’t presume to interpret any countries response to potential refugees, mainly because I have never lived in a country that had to deal with 10,000s of them (or more).

I suspect it is not something a lot of countries want to jump to volunteer for just because they share the same faith.

 

[Da Guru]

There's a video on Reddit of a Hasidic family confiscating a Palestinian home,

Thank you. Is it right to think of Palestine as like a colony of Israel? Palestine is not its own country, right?

And Israel treats them badly with stuff like the links you mentioned?

And absolutely what Hamas did/is doing is terrorism and abhorrent. I'm just trying to understand the relationship.

When people talk about a "two state" thing, that means Israel letting go of Palestine and allowing Palestine to be it's own country?

So is this like Palestine trying to be independent of Israel?

I'm sorry to be asking what I'm sure are dumb questions. Just trying to make sure I understand.

The last two days I have read quite a bit on the history of this and tried to educate myself more. To say this is complicated is an understatement. Not sure how will ever get resolved.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Inside the Gaza seige. https://x.com/channel4news/status/1711821708993126739?s=46&t=7Rrih1XtAR8mFSU9fjx-lQ

 

[Da Guru]

I was all-in on coverage of this initially, but honestly I've started to stop reading things because...well...it's just getting to be too much. Sad all around. Anger all around. I think the reason why this has gone on for decades is truly because it is so complex. Both sides have a legitimate claim to the lands depending on where in history you want to legitimize a claim. Both sides have committed atrocities against civilians (NOT equating the magnitude, but neither side is guiltless).

The Palestinian side is exponentially more complicated in my eyes because Hamas ≠ Palestine in all aspects. Hamas is evil. I stand fully in that court. NO group who did what has been done over the past few days (and at times before) has any reason to be on the face of this earth...but Hamas is not Gaza, and Palestinians aren't all part of Hamas. Unfortunately, when Israel defends itself with counter-strikes aimed at Hamas, it also indirectly targets Palestinians who may or may not be aligned with Hamas' actions, and who have nowhere else to go to flee the attack. Geographically, they are one and the same. Philosophically, some are, some aren't - and it's not a binary scale. I'm sure some would welcome a divided state where both can live peacefully. I'm sure there are some who would wipe out the entire Jewish population the second they laid down their arms.

Regardless, the end result is civilian casualties, which justify further attacks and escalations and the cycle repeats. It's awful. It's hard to watch. It hurts to watch a Palestinian father holding their dead child just as much as an Israeli father holding their dead child.

Yes Hamas is evil. No question. But we’ve worked with evil before. We were allies with the Soviet Union in order to defeat Nazi Germany and perhaps no more evil regime has ever existed. Both Trump and Biden have attempted negotiations with the Taliban, and they are every bit as savage as Hamas.

I don’t know how to work with Hamas. They’re murderers who deserve to die. But there appears to be no way to get rid of them. So now what?

I agree Hamas is evil - no clue what do do about it. If I had that answer and believed in it, I'd quit my job and push for it. That's kind of my challenge - it's one of those situations where I don't see either side changing, and every solution is awful...and living with it is awful too.

Just heard on the news that Hamas has had hundreds and hundreds of young men volunteer to be suicide bombers. As usual the leaders of Hamas and other groups never want those missions but to have no value on any type of life including your own is frightening.

Dearborn MI where Ford World Headquarters has one on the largest middle eastern populations in the country, if not the largest. I have come across people from all over the mid-east.

The people I have met from Palestine..and I am talking 20-25 years ago openly hate the Jews with passion I have never seen before. These are educated people, older women, children, whoever. It is so bad that I would never even make a comment about Israel.

 

[General Malaise]

I am sitting here in North America and I wouldn’t presume to interpret any countries response to potential refugees, mainly because I have never lived in a country that had to deal with 10,000s of them (or more).

I suspect it is not something a lot of countries want to jump to volunteer for just because they share the same faith.

This is what I wanted to type as well, but I feared that my comment would take this thread in a very political direction and so, I'll just say I agree with you here.

 

[The Commish]

No one is supporting the acts that Hamas did to civilians. But you and a few others are lumping Hamas with all of the people in Gaza.

How many times do we have to see "eliminate X and the problem is solved" only to see that it's really "eliminate X and create a vacuum for the next group to step in and carry on the cause"? I am 49 years old and this has been the pattern, consistently in the ME for my ENTIRE life

These two statements are one of the biggest challenges here honestly. The original hatred between Palestine and Israel came from the Zionist movement and the creation of Israel - which in many cases displaced Palestinians against their free will. We're at a point where honestly, very few (if any) people in Hamas were ACTUALLY displaced in the original creation of Israel (they're not old enough). So the hatred from the current Hamas stems from the oppression they've felt living in the West Bank/Gaza, NOT from personal displacement from their homes. Now...the current Non-Hamas Palestinians unfortunately have new fuel for hatred of Jewish Israel driven by the bombing of their homes...It's cyclical, and I think very common within terroristic groups. As I said earlier, Hamas ≠ Gaza...but Hamas is IN Gaza. Attacking Hamas has civilian non-Hamas casualties. These civilians harbor resentment that leads to future attacks.

One could say "If Palestinians wanted to stop the suffering, they'd boot Hamas out of Gaza and negotiate for peace," but that's not easy...potentially just not possible. As The Commish said - you eliminate one group, and another takes its place.

I completely disagree that the hatred stems from current treatment. There is no way that Arabs all across the Middle East hate Israel and want to kill them all just because the Gaza strip has issues. Just no way. There is so much more to hatred of Israel and it started before 1947. In the 1930s kids were throwing rocks at Jews and adults were making them walk barefoot.

That hatred is deep and evil and is taught to their children and has been for longer than you or I or Israel have been around.

I'm trying to understand how what you said is different than what he said. Reading both his comment and your response, it sounds like you guys are saying the same thing. FN's point is a good one that the current day group that is Hamas wasn't around (for the most part) for the origins of this battle, but they are living in the current battle. The gap between the two is likely filled with teaching and other experiences from elders within the religion or even within the family. That sort of thing has kept the fire burning/smoldering all this time. My view is that current treatment is validation for all the things they've been taught as they grew/grow up. That's within the group of Palestinians that see things more in line with Hamas. Now, throw on top of that all the Palestinians who haven't been taught all that historical stuff (right or wrong). Israel isn't making a distinction in events like this. That's virtually impossible. But for those who haven't been taught that history who are living among all those more sympathetic to Hamas, they are absolutely thinking "WTF Israel....what's you're deal? Can't we all just get along?!?!?!" So again...it's a mix of people. That's probably the most complex part of the whole thing.

 

[Balco]

But in larger terms I think there is more nuance than you’re allowing. And I do not think it’s a good idea for Israel to invade Gaza and start killing people indiscriminately. I believe that will make things far worse. It’s not only a question of whether the people of Gaza deserve it, it’s also a question of whether such actions benefit Israel. I don’t think they do.

I don't disagree with you at all here.

I'm not saying it will be a net positive, but I'm saying it is what they WILL do. Israel is going to walk through Gaza via tanks & drones or even boots and make sure no sign of Hamas exists in that area again and they aren't going to willingly leave for a long time, if ever.

Most of the leaders of Hamas and many of their soldiers aren’t in Gaza. This was something planned for a long time.

Mossad will be on the job until it is done.

Don’t doubt it, but I think my point is they won’t be finding many hamas leaders in Gaza - they need to cut the head off the snake first and I don’t believe they can accomplish that by starting a ground war in Gaza.

Gather intelligence and find the big targets wherever they are hiding and don’t ask permission from the leaders of the countries they are hiding in.

Already being planned.

Zero doubt - Mossad is very deliberate.

I am just wondering when the shelling of Gaza is going to end - it’s a tight rope Israel is walking. They have shown the force in which they can respond, now what is the end game there? Continued destruction which no doubt will include significant innocent casualties?

Have to think much of the hamas force is retreating as part of their next phase.

 

[General Malaise]

But in larger terms I think there is more nuance than you’re allowing. And I do not think it’s a good idea for Israel to invade Gaza and start killing people indiscriminately. I believe that will make things far worse. It’s not only a question of whether the people of Gaza deserve it, it’s also a question of whether such actions benefit Israel. I don’t think they do.

I don't disagree with you at all here.

I'm not saying it will be a net positive, but I'm saying it is what they WILL do. Israel is going to walk through Gaza via tanks & drones or even boots and make sure no sign of Hamas exists in that area again and they aren't going to willingly leave for a long time, if ever.

Most of the leaders of Hamas and many of their soldiers aren’t in Gaza. This was something planned for a long time.

Mossad will be on the job until it is done.

Don’t doubt it, but I think my point is they won’t be finding many hamas leaders in Gaza - they need to cut the head off the snake first and I don’t believe they can accomplish that by starting a ground war in Gaza.

Gather intelligence and find the big targets wherever they are hiding and don’t ask permission from the leaders of the countries they are hiding in.

Already being planned.

Zero doubt - Mossad is very deliberate.

I am just wondering when the shelling of Gaza is going to end - it’s a tight rope Israel is walking. They have shown the force in which they can respond, now what is the end game there? Continued destruction which no doubt will include significant innocent casualties?

Have to think much of the hamas force is retreating as part of their next phase.

At the risk of asking perhaps a dumb question - Retreating to where?

 

[massraider]

Have a family friend who's wife has been in Israel for over a week. He has been communicating with her, and trying to make arrangements but communication wasn't easy, and last we heard she was at a hotel, maybe in Jerusalem, but they were wary about sending details.
She's also 82 years old, and was a flighty little bird 20 years ago, she's not built for this.

Just heard she is scheduled on a flight, and will be in Boston tomorrow. Big sigh from the family, this couple is pretty much family.

When my mother said they were wary of sending details, I thought overkill.

My mum has been texting our friend, and mum just received a call with an Iran prefix. She sent a screen shot. I am shocked right now.

She did not answer the call

 

[SWC]

I was all-in on coverage of this initially, but honestly I've started to stop reading things because...well...it's just getting to be too much. Sad all around. Anger all around. I think the reason why this has gone on for decades is truly because it is so complex. Both sides have a legitimate claim to the lands depending on where in history you want to legitimize a claim. Both sides have committed atrocities against civilians (NOT equating the magnitude, but neither side is guiltless).

The Palestinian side is exponentially more complicated in my eyes because Hamas ≠ Palestine in all aspects. Hamas is evil. I stand fully in that court. NO group who did what has been done over the past few days (and at times before) has any reason to be on the face of this earth...but Hamas is not Gaza, and Palestinians aren't all part of Hamas. Unfortunately, when Israel defends itself with counter-strikes aimed at Hamas, it also indirectly targets Palestinians who may or may not be aligned with Hamas' actions, and who have nowhere else to go to flee the attack. Geographically, they are one and the same. Philosophically, some are, some aren't - and it's not a binary scale. I'm sure some would welcome a divided state where both can live peacefully. I'm sure there are some who would wipe out the entire Jewish population the second they laid down their arms.

Regardless, the end result is civilian casualties, which justify further attacks and escalations and the cycle repeats. It's awful. It's hard to watch. It hurts to watch a Palestinian father holding their dead child just as much as an Israeli father holding their dead child.

Yes Hamas is evil. No question. But we’ve worked with evil before. We were allies with the Soviet Union in order to defeat Nazi Germany and perhaps no more evil regime has ever existed. Both Trump and Biden have attempted negotiations with the Taliban, and they are every bit as savage as Hamas.

I don’t know how to work with Hamas. They’re murderers who deserve to die. But there appears to be no way to get rid of them. So now what?

I agree Hamas is evil - no clue what do do about it. If I had that answer and believed in it, I'd quit my job and push for it. That's kind of my challenge - it's one of those situations where I don't see either side changing, and every solution is awful...and living with it is awful too.

Just heard on the news that Hamas has had hundreds and hundreds of young men volunteer to be suicide bombers. As usual the leaders of Hamas and other groups never want those missions but to have no value on any type of life including your own is frightening.

Dearborn MI where Ford World Headquarters has one on the largest middle eastern populations in the country, if not the largest. I have come across people from all over the mid-east.

The people I have met from Palestine..and I am talking 20-25 years ago openly hate the Jews with passion I have never seen before. These are educated people, older women, children, whoever. It is so bad that I would never even make a comment about Israel.

this has been my experience when i am in your neck of the woods as well i have some family up there in livonia take that to the bank brohan