CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Didn’t he already announce his retirement weeks ago before the champions league final?
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2024 Summer of Soccer - Euro's, Copa America, Olympics, WCQing (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter NewlyRetired
- Start date
Didn’t he already announce his retirement weeks ago before the champions league final?
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
Yeah I thought that was the deal of walking away from RM - spend more time with the family. (though if I recall the kids were crying at the last game, so maybe they want dad to keep playing somewhere else...)
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
yes, but there has been constant rumors that RM are still talking with him to change his mind. I think the definitive answer will come after Germany goes out.
General Malaise
Footballguy
That's a very good and understandable post, NR. 
Maybe 2 caveats from a casual.
1) in your basketball example (which is very good) the only slight issue I might add from a casual's perspective is that we aren't being told by media and other serious fans that this curtent basketball is a good one. That it has a "Golden Generation". That there are lofty expectations - no, not Championship or bust expectations - but certainly better than what we just saw out of USMNT recently.
2) as a casual, how on EARTH does a game of that magnitude (US v URG) employ the services of a central referee with such light credentials? 7 games? Egad. As a casual, I well remember the public outcry the NFL's replacement referees elicited from the masses. That strike nor the experiment lasted long. NFL fixed it. Cannot imagine any major sporting event using such an unqualified head referee.
Those are just 2 observations I have. I think if I followed the sport as close as you and others do, guys like me would cause me irritation too. So I get it.
Maybe 2 caveats from a casual.
1) in your basketball example (which is very good) the only slight issue I might add from a casual's perspective is that we aren't being told by media and other serious fans that this curtent basketball is a good one. That it has a "Golden Generation". That there are lofty expectations - no, not Championship or bust expectations - but certainly better than what we just saw out of USMNT recently.
2) as a casual, how on EARTH does a game of that magnitude (US v URG) employ the services of a central referee with such light credentials? 7 games? Egad. As a casual, I well remember the public outcry the NFL's replacement referees elicited from the masses. That strike nor the experiment lasted long. NFL fixed it. Cannot imagine any major sporting event using such an unqualified head referee.
Those are just 2 observations I have. I think if I followed the sport as close as you and others do, guys like me would cause me irritation too. So I get it.
⚡DEADHEAD⚡
Footballguy
Casuals and non-casuals/diehards have every reason to be disappointed if not dismayed with U.S. soccer. A critical difference when comparing to other sports is that this is the national team, and that prompts a different level of attention and emotion in this country, where at the international level, we are expected to perform and compete. We rise to the occasion. It's part of our culture. U.S. hockey in 1980, Dream Team, Kristy Strug, Michael Phelps, Lance Armstrong*, etc. But we can be realistic with U.S. soccer at this stage, where as a fanbase, we aren't looking for the finals or the semis. We'd probably even accept getting knocked out in a group stage if we played inspiring, interesting, compelling soccer. We just don't. We've regressed in a resource-flush environment where we shouldn't have. The fanbase rightly has every reason to be expecting more given what's happened with soccer here over at least three decades, if not a half century. Instead we have less than what we had a generation ago. Lalas inferred the 1994 team was better than what we have now. Yes, he's sensational at times, but he's not far off.
Our problems sit squarely with the leadership at every level. USSF, coaching, team.
Our problems sit squarely with the leadership at every level. USSF, coaching, team.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
That's a very good and understandable post, NR.
Maybe 2 caveats from a casual.
1) in your basketball example (which is very good) the only slight issue I might add from a casual's perspective is that we aren't being told by media and other serious fans that this curtent basketball is a good one. That it has a "Golden Generation". That there are lofty expectations - no, not Championship or bust expectations - but certainly better than what we just saw out of USMNT recently.
2) as a casual, how on EARTH does a game of that magnitude (US v URG) employ the services of a central referee with such light credentials? 7 games? Egad. As a casual, I well remember the public outcry the NFL's replacement referees elicited from the masses. That strike nor the experiment lasted long. NFL fixed it. Cannot imagine any major sporting event using such an unqualified head referee.
Those are just 2 observations I have. I think if I followed the sport as close as you and others do, guys like me would cause me irritation too. So I get it.
1) Fans can't control what the media says, especially in this day and age of click bait. I can easily tell you that most every one who follows the teams has always said the same thing. The core players are better than they were years ago, especially at club level but they are simply not better as a team when playing for the US. We have been saying this ad nauseam for years in the US thread.
2) The ref was a disgrace, but again, I am unsure what the has to do with being a fan of the US. I can point to horrendous reffing/umpiring/etc in every sport I watched growing up, big games or small.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
You should check out the post I just made in the US thread about how easy it is to advance from a WC to the knock out stages. It was a bit eye opening for me.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
The ironic thing about this statement is that the coach is very likely the least of the problems of the 3 but he will be the first to be changed. Thankfully he is still a problem himself so a change may be helpful (or it may get worse, who knows...)
El Floppo
Footballguy
It was interesting hearing the other guy (not stone) bringOnly thing not mentioned which we talk about in here... MLS academies being brand new. And whether relative expectations of going from 0-100 to a top 5-10 team in less than 30 years is realistic. Rob touched on the need for generational talent, which looking around Europe and S America, becomes clearer and clearer. That's hard to control, but the academies will help.
That is the thing. Casuals don't really care about the process of how hard and long it takes to improve on an international level, nor should they at a casual fan level. We understand and follow the sport closely.
One thing the casuals don't seem to fully understand is that following the USMNT for many of us is no different than following any other pro team in any sport. For example, there are a ton of basketball fans who follow NBA teams that are mediocre at best and never win anything. You could say the same thing about a majority of teams in every sport.
The vast vast majority of sporting teams do not win the ultimate prize or even get close to it. The journey is what is interesting to the fandom.
I am unsure why this is any different for following the USMNT.
I agree with most of that.
MLS started in 96. We sent college kids to WC 90 and 94. Kids were coming to the pros from college and suburban pay to play programs until the MLS academies started 10 years ago. I keep bringing those up because I genuinely believe those are what will propel the US into a higher tier. We had 22 yo rookies only just trying to learn how to be pros competing against 16 yos who had been immersed in professional systems. It's always going to be a losing world like that. And as you say, the US expects winners...even if that expectation is unrealistic.
So I do agree that the overall desire to win seems to have regressed. And other than CP, I'm not seeing a top tier of player any different than what weve always had. Lalas never said the 94 team was better... He said there were players on that team that he felt were better than players on the current team. And I definitely agree.
But it's worth noting that the drop in quality to the rest of those 94 and subsequent non top tier players is massive compared to where we are now. I played with and against a few guys in that 94 team who would like only be quality players for current college teams, and would never even sniff WC. 30 years of MLS and 10 years of academies has brought the LCD US soccer player waaaay up, even if unfortunately the top tier of guys- while deeper, isn't necessarily better.
This team as youngsters has shown games and moments of an elevated quality that we're all clamoring for... Even if results don't work, at least there's that. And that's led so many to talk about a golden generation... Guys like Dest, CP, Adams, Swag, Gio, Weah, Musah, Balo doing things I've never seen US teams do as teams or individuals. But those moments and games have been really inconsistent. And as you and everybody is seeing, they showed so little of it this Copa and also showed too little of the grot and determination that helped previous teams get results.
Who's fault? USSF? GGG? The players? Us and our elevated expectations? Dunno. All of it.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
We lost the grit and determination under JK.
He always talked a good game and seemed to really understand that you have to have a nasty edge in the international game but he also changed our entire style of playing which directly led to the mess in the 2018 qualification. We were not yet ready for that style of advanced play.
I mentioned this in another post in another thread but for much of my fandom, the US did not give a **** how it looked playing. They played low blocks when needed and countered hard. They had absolute donkey's like Lalas and Hejduk actually prosper in this environment because it reduced the technical skills needed and emphasized work rate and grit.
We are currently stuck in between right now. We do not have players with that nasty gritty edge but we are not yet good enough to control possession games against the better teams.
The most interesting part of a new coach for me will be to see which style he leans towards and more importantly how does he accomplishment it with no competitive games against the better teams.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Bradley was ingrained in the program well long before JK was around.
Jermaine is a great call. If there was one player JK would have cloned it was him. He possessed everything from work rate, to grit to enough technical skill to not be a donkey. I don't think he started playing under JK though. If memory serves it was Bradley (daddy) who first call him in.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Yes, Jones switched to the US and was brought into camp under Bradley. I think he missed that World Cup in 2010 due to injury or something though.
I didn't really like that pairing, but it definitely helped the style Jurgen wanted to play. If only he didn't end up having such a weird beef with the greatest US player ever...
El Floppo
Footballguy
Yeah.. didn't mean JK gave them their first caps, just that he always had guys who would do that job.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
years later, and taking a step back I can see both sides of the beef.
While I am no big fan of JK's, I can certainly understand how his upbringing and how he approached the sport, attitude wise, was significantly different from Landon's.
Time also lets us understand better that Donovan's make up was extremely susceptible to burn out and mental health issues. JK simply did not speak this type of language. To JK, what Landon did spit on everything he believed a player of Landon's ability should be.
Don't forget that it was JK himself that went out of his way to get Landon to Bayern, where Landon's mental problems first started surfacing, even if we did not know it at the time. I think the relationship broke down very early as JK felt like Landon let him down and never really forgot about it.
El Floppo
Footballguy
I mean, look at our MF- gio, musah, Adams, swag, ldlt, johnny, Tillman.
I thought Swag was that guy, but havent seen it from him lately. Adams can make the smart and needed foul, but then pats and chats up the guy he kicked down. The rest of those guys are flat out soft defensively.
I thought Swag was that guy, but havent seen it from him lately. Adams can make the smart and needed foul, but then pats and chats up the guy he kicked down. The rest of those guys are flat out soft defensively.
The Gator
Footballguy
That's a very good and understandable post, NR.
Maybe 2 caveats from a casual.
1) in your basketball example (which is very good) the only slight issue I might add from a casual's perspective is that we aren't being told by media and other serious fans that this curtent basketball is a good one. That it has a "Golden Generation". That there are lofty expectations - no, not Championship or bust expectations - but certainly better than what we just saw out of USMNT recently.
2) as a casual, how on EARTH does a game of that magnitude (US v URG) employ the services of a central referee with such light credentials? 7 games? Egad. As a casual, I well remember the public outcry the NFL's replacement referees elicited from the masses. That strike nor the experiment lasted long. NFL fixed it. Cannot imagine any major sporting event using such an unqualified head referee.
Those are just 2 observations I have. I think if I followed the sport as close as you and others do, guys like me would cause me irritation too. So I get it.
1) Fans can't control what the media says, especially in this day and age of click bait. I can easily tell you that most every one who follows the teams has always said the same thing. The core players are better than they were years ago, especially at club level but they are simply not better as a team when playing for the US. We have been saying this ad nauseam for years in the US thread.
2) The ref was a disgrace, but again, I am unsure what the has to do with being a fan of the US. I can point to horrendous reffing/umpiring/etc in every sport I watched growing up, big games or small.
THe OG disgrace, Eric Gregg
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
If I were US Soccer and interviewing a new head coach, I would put this chart up on a white board and say "how do we fix this?"
We have never been this soft a team in our history. This is striking to say the least and something every single player should be ashamed of (even if tactics may have caused much of it)
We have never been this soft a team in our history. This is striking to say the least and something every single player should be ashamed of (even if tactics may have caused much of it)
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
El Floppo
Footballguy
JK dumped the US out of WC 2018 while playing marginal soccer and making strange roster choices.
I don't love how little this team creates... And that's on GGG... Otherwise, man- not sure.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
beat you by like 2 seconds!StatsBomb
@StatsBomb
Uruguay had the highest Aggression% in the Copa América 2024 group stages: tackling, pressing, or fouling 27% of their opponent's ball receipts within two seconds
The USA had the lowest Aggression% with 15%
x.com
x.com
Of all the stats I have seen, this one is by far the most alarming. And it should scare the **** out of anyone at US Soccer who wants to keep GGG.
gianmarco
Footballguy
And yet, Uruguay had 1 card total and the US had the worst cards/foul ratio.StatsBomb
@StatsBomb
Uruguay had the highest Aggression% in the Copa América 2024 group stages: tackling, pressing, or fouling 27% of their opponent's ball receipts within two seconds
The USA had the lowest Aggression% with 15%
x.com
El Floppo
Footballguy
Lol... What are the measurable "aggression" metrics? Snarls? Dissing?
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Amount of Spanish language insults being yelled IMO.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
% of tackling, pressing, or fouling their opponent's ball receipts within two seconds
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
I said the same a couple weeks ago... he's a guy who can afford to lose a step and still be elite-ish. He might have a very long career for us, and if he's healthy he's probably got that position on lockdown for most of a decade. It's hard to imagine us producing a better LB.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
And yet, Uruguay had 1 card total and the US had the worst cards/foul ratio.StatsBomb
@StatsBomb
Uruguay had the highest Aggression% in the Copa América 2024 group stages: tackling, pressing, or fouling 27% of their opponent's ball receipts within two seconds
The USA had the lowest Aggression% with 15%
x.com
The cards to foul ratio certainly may have played a part in the US lack of ability to engage quickly. The early red card certainly did not help as what ever tactics were going to be employed for that game had to be tossed immediately.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
TT's two cents on aggression
=================
https://x.com/TaylorTwellman
Taylor Twellman
@TaylorTwellman
The #USMNT is not good enough…let me repeat NOT GOOD ENOUGH to not be in this conversation of aggression. So many are misinformed that if you are “good with the ball” then you don’t “fight, scrape, claw, kick” your way to a win. Look at the top 2 on this list….
=================
https://x.com/TaylorTwellman
Taylor Twellman
@TaylorTwellman
The #USMNT is not good enough…let me repeat NOT GOOD ENOUGH to not be in this conversation of aggression. So many are misinformed that if you are “good with the ball” then you don’t “fight, scrape, claw, kick” your way to a win. Look at the top 2 on this list….
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
When you're down a man for 70 minutes all of your pressing stats are going to take a big hit. So I'm not sure how much to make of that, TBH.
And I'm sorry that I'm a broken record on this, honestly. But you can't have McKennie and Reyna in the midfield and expect to press well. It's not even a knock on them, it's just not who they are. You can be "good for an offensive player" if you're a forward or a wing, but not as a midfielder IMO.
I was thinking of Klopp to the US yesterday and wondering if he'd do something like Adams, Musah and Johnny or Adams, Musah and Tillman. I mean Milner, Henderson and Fab were next to useless offensively, but they played a ton of minutes together for one of the two or three best teams in the world for ~2-3 years because they filled spaces and ran all day and had enough physicality to be a problem 1v1.
Not necessarily trying to be realistic, but just coming as close as I could to approximating Liverpool's dominant team roles with USMNT players...
---------CP Reyna Weah
------------Musah Tillman
----------------Adams
Robinson Ream Miles Dest
Something like that.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I don't know what the right solution is (and that is probably why I won't be offered millions of dollars a year to try and solve it).
It would be fairly easy to revert and get 5-6 field players like the Acosta's/Zimm's/Miazga type of players who will be happy to turn every game into a grind fest. But I don't think that points to being able to finally get through the choke point of where we get stuck in the WC.)
I don't know how we find or even develop players like Musah's skill set combined with Acosta's skill set.
The best and brightest of the 2030 generation seem to be tracking like slightly better technical versions of the current core but it is not really noticeable yet whether they have the intangibles or not.
It would be fairly easy to revert and get 5-6 field players like the Acosta's/Zimm's/Miazga type of players who will be happy to turn every game into a grind fest. But I don't think that points to being able to finally get through the choke point of where we get stuck in the WC.)
I don't know how we find or even develop players like Musah's skill set combined with Acosta's skill set.
The best and brightest of the 2030 generation seem to be tracking like slightly better technical versions of the current core but it is not really noticeable yet whether they have the intangibles or not.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
That's really the rub. We're used to seeing the US get results above their level of talent with that style of play. Now we have a much more talented squad who are getting worse results.
The approach has to change and we've seen enough over 6 years to know Berhalter isn't going to do it.
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
I think the biggest difference between Berhalter and a competent manager - the competent manager would either select players who suit the tactics, or choose tactics that suit the players.
I don't have the confidence that Berhalter can (or would) do either.
I don't have the confidence that Berhalter can (or would) do either.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
The fan base (and media) have been almost as badly split as our countries political parties starting from the minute after JK's unfortunate words about MLS.
This is the first time in all the years since that time that I can remember, that the fan base and the media are all in lock step that a coaching change has to made.
bagger
Footballguy
Agree. We are missing that Jones type of player. Felt like McKinnie used to be a bit more this way but need someone who is the one creates some **** housery on our end.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
gianmarco
Footballguy
Honestly, I think Klopp would have a significant interest in this opportunity.
It's not about the money. Klopp has otherwise accomplished everything he could want at the club level. This is an opportunity to take over a major country international team that has really never won anything, that gets to host a WC in 2 years, with at least a decent/talented player pool that is starving to take that next step. If he could guide that team beyond the round of 16 and be the first to take them potentially even further than ever before.... What an ego stroke.
Plus, he's got two wing backs in Jedi and Dest that fit a style he's used to.
It's not like he's ever going to go to a country like France or Italy or Brazil.... What for?
I don't know, I think he would LOVE this chance.
It's not about the money. Klopp has otherwise accomplished everything he could want at the club level. This is an opportunity to take over a major country international team that has really never won anything, that gets to host a WC in 2 years, with at least a decent/talented player pool that is starving to take that next step. If he could guide that team beyond the round of 16 and be the first to take them potentially even further than ever before.... What an ego stroke.
Plus, he's got two wing backs in Jedi and Dest that fit a style he's used to.
It's not like he's ever going to go to a country like France or Italy or Brazil.... What for?
I don't know, I think he would LOVE this chance.
El Floppo
Footballguy
And reunited with CP as well... Somebody hes always vocally supported
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
wow
=================
EuroFoot
https://x.com/eurofootcom
@eurofootcom
𝐁𝐑𝐄𝐀𝐊𝐈𝐍𝐆 | UEFA has BANNED Merih Demiral for 2 European Championship games due to his celebration vs Austria, reports
@BILD. He will miss Türkiye's match against Netherlands on Saturday.
=================
EuroFoot
https://x.com/eurofootcom
@eurofootcom
𝐁𝐑𝐄𝐀𝐊𝐈𝐍𝐆 | UEFA has BANNED Merih Demiral for 2 European Championship games due to his celebration vs Austria, reports
@BILD. He will miss Türkiye's match against Netherlands on Saturday.
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
Currently being denied by Türkiye Football.
I suspect a last minute appeal has been lodged. Stay tuned.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
He figured things out at the very last minute in Brazil when he paired Jones and Bradley in front of KYLE BECKERMAN and the three bossed things pretty damn good being relentless and gritty and running their nuts off. IIRC Bradley and Jones were 1-2 in ground covered in the group stage. Always loved him for ditching the "play pretty soccer" thing long enough to give us some epic games that year.
OMG... THAT'S TEN YEARS AGO.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Beckerman is another perfect example of the type of player that was effective when his proper role was found but would not sniff the team today.
This is such a conundrum.
⚡DEADHEAD⚡
Footballguy
disaster. dumb move.
Major
Footballguy
you guys have a link to the celebration? I don't remember anything that warranted suspension but maybe I didn't see the infraction
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Germany and Turkey clash over football player’s nationalist wolf salute
“Symbols of Turkish right-wing extremists have no place in our stadiums,” a German minister said.
www.politico.eu
⚡DEADHEAD⚡
Footballguy
On Lalas's podcast, Rob Stone stated that it is NOT true that the men's and women's national coaches have to be paid the same salary. We can pay a coach whatever. I still really like the idea of getting some sponsors to throw a few bucks in to make it happen.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Excited for tomorrow. Two massive games and I’ve got the day off.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Unfortunately both Keller and McBride said equal pay will be a factor. McBride specifically worked directly in the federation.
I have seen half the insiders say one thing and half the other.
Maybe it is in the wording some where, such that when a new women's coach is hired she must make the same as the men, but maybe not the other way around. All we know right now is that GGG and Emma make identical salaries.
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