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Christian counselor is trying to get fiancee to leave me because I'm a Non-believer (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Captain Cranks
- Start date
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Huh. I don't see that as a red flag at all. IMO most individuals - and by extension most couples - could benefit from therapy.
Officer Pete Malloy
Footballguy
El Floppo
Footballguy
I like Gally's take on all of this.
I'm more of a "line has been crossed" type of guy, especially regarding somebody who I'm paying that's supposed to be impartial. plus, going again to this person isn't what the fiance wants to do- which I'd support more than anything else. but I appreciate the sentiment of wanting to work through things, even with therapists that by all accounts appear to be operating with a faith-based and biased agenda to their payed-for counseling.
I'm more of a "line has been crossed" type of guy, especially regarding somebody who I'm paying that's supposed to be impartial. plus, going again to this person isn't what the fiance wants to do- which I'd support more than anything else. but I appreciate the sentiment of wanting to work through things, even with therapists that by all accounts appear to be operating with a faith-based and biased agenda to their payed-for counseling.
El Floppo
Footballguy
dgreen
Footballguy
I'd view "cafeteria Christian" as someone who just picks and chooses what they want without a ton of thought into it rather than someone who simply doesn't follow all the rules. A lot of people fail to follow rules, but truly believe they should follow them and they want to do better. Others have well-reasoned beliefs on why they interpret a Scripture differently than the norm. To me, those don't fit the "cafeteria Christian" idea.
But, if a Christian just dismisses Scripture because they don't like it or it's not convenient or because it will just make things less enjoyable for them, then the label might fit. To your point, though, that probably does describe most, if not all, Christians on some issue. But, when confronted with it, what do they do? Christians should want other Christians to "demean" them by calling them out on their perceived sin. That's one thing we're supposed to do for each other. From a Christian perspective, I think it would be good for your fiancée to determine why she dismisses this particular "rule". And maybe she has done that. I'm not trying to imply that she hasn't thought about it in-depth.
ChiefD
Footballguy
Tell the counselor to pound manna and move on.
My wife is a Christian and I consider myself undecided. We went through pre-marital counseling with the minister who married us, and we talked about a lot of stuff. And he gave us some good advice, two of which I will never forget:
1. Solve whatever problem is between the two of you immediately. If it festers, you end up glossing over the original problem and then other stuff builds on top of that and never gets resolved.
2. As a man, don't feel like you need to "fix" everything. Men are fixers - they want to solve every little thing or issue that affects the family/wife/whatever. Sometimes your wife just needs you to listen and keep your mouth shut.
15 years and 3 kids later things are good, and religion is not an issue with us. We love each other and just live our lives trying to be happy and raise good kids.
Love trumps all.
My wife is a Christian and I consider myself undecided. We went through pre-marital counseling with the minister who married us, and we talked about a lot of stuff. And he gave us some good advice, two of which I will never forget:
1. Solve whatever problem is between the two of you immediately. If it festers, you end up glossing over the original problem and then other stuff builds on top of that and never gets resolved.
2. As a man, don't feel like you need to "fix" everything. Men are fixers - they want to solve every little thing or issue that affects the family/wife/whatever. Sometimes your wife just needs you to listen and keep your mouth shut.
15 years and 3 kids later things are good, and religion is not an issue with us. We love each other and just live our lives trying to be happy and raise good kids.
Love trumps all.
Short Corner
Footballguy
I think you might have to give more weight to the fact that she wanted Christian based counseling despite the fact you are an atheist. IMO, lot of these relationships end up with one side thinking they can evangelize the other and the other side thinking they'll grow out of it. More often than not both sides end up resenting the other. Finding out before the big commitment may be a blessing.
Jobber
Footballguy
El Floppo
Footballguy
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
definitely find someone new.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
As an evangelical Christian...
…. tell the therapist to do something anatomically impossible.
culdeus
Footballguy
We had the same sort of experience in our counseling. My wife is a closeted athiest so it was hard for her to deal with.
She had some of her family questioning her faith more than our marriage and at times this caused more stress on us than the fact that I was athiest. (though both were a factor)
nearly 20 years later and I can say proudly god/jesus are not a factor in our lives whatsoever, and she's no longer afraid to say so.
#### that guy and #### all that nonsense.
She had some of her family questioning her faith more than our marriage and at times this caused more stress on us than the fact that I was athiest. (though both were a factor)
nearly 20 years later and I can say proudly god/jesus are not a factor in our lives whatsoever, and she's no longer afraid to say so.
#### that guy and #### all that nonsense.
The Commish
Footballguy
As a Christian, it would have been a huge red flag that the therapist asked if it were ok to mix theology with psychology. I'd find a different therapist. Relationships are tough enough when dealing with one of those aspects. Mixing them? When you're trying to fix a problem? Not a good idea IMO.
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
Not even C&E. She's someone who believes Jesus died on the cross for her sins, tries to live a good life, and hopes that her and her loved ones reach heaven one day. That brings her comfort.
I want to continue seeing the counselor for couples sessions. Other than this blip, I like the counselor, she's good at talking through things with us, and I like the EFT method she uses. I spoke to my fiancee and we agreed to go to our next session together and see how we feel about proceeding. I haven't decided if I want to bring this up although I'm considering dropping her an email to explain our feelings.
I appreciate the explanation. However, I'm not so sure about the bolded. Do we want to call women who teach or speak out in church 'cafeteria Christians? 1 Timothy 2:11-15 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 How about calling out the counselor for wearing too much jewelry? 1 Timothy 2:9-15
Do you think most of the Christian women you know adhere to these rules? If not, do they need to analyze why they're purposely rejecting God's policies? Or can it be assumed that they, and society, have determined that certain rules in the Bible are not relevant in their lives and don't stand between them and a relationship with God.
She didn't want Christian counseling. I booked it with a Christian counselor without her suggesting it be Christian. She's since said she wants to go to a secular counselor.
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Johnny Rock
Footballguy
If the counselor was a guy I’d say he’s trying to take your girl. Since that’s not the case go it alone, or if there’s something specific to work on, find a new counselor.
dgreen
Footballguy
I'm not sure exactly how to word it, but I think a follower of Christ needs a better approach than "Eh, I disagree with that verse" or "Well, other churches aren't doing it that way anymore". Those verses exist and I think it's fair to ask someone "How do you deal with those verses?" Just like there are explanations of why we eat shellfish and don't execute adulterers, there are explanations of why we let women speak in church.
I don't think people need to take offense to being asked why they aren't following certain verses. I'm sure we'd want churches to give a good explanation of why they think women should keep silent (given our culture), so I don't see a problem (given these verses exist) to ask Christians who claim to value Scripture to give a reason why they don't. If the answer is obvious, then it should be an easy explanation.
I also don't want to imply that each person is required to do in-depth study into each and every verse to justify each and every belief they have. They do that and they won't have time to feed the hungry, give water to the thirsty, spend time with the stranger, clothe the naked, look after the sick, and visit the prisoners. We don't all need to reinvent the wheel. It makes sense sometimes to accept what society has determined. Not everyone needs to address whether women can speak in church or not. If we assume the God of the Bible exists, I'd suggest that He will convict individuals to investigate further where they need to do more thinking of their own.
If you go back to this counselor and ask about this tact she used, I look forward to you updating the thread with her explanation.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
I knew this wouldn't end well.
You had me at "christian".
You had me at "christian".
That one guy
Footballguy
Couples therapy prior to marriage is a fantastic idea, especially when you acknowledge existing communication issues.
The wifey and I did this prior to our marriage as a requirement from the pastor who was going to be performing the wedding. He assisted with methods of communication and conflict resolution, all while intermingling the concept of faith and “Christ-like actions”. He knew neither one of us were professed believers and didn’t go to church outside of Christmas and Easter with my parents. Not once did he, in the midst of all his faith based advice, delve into the whole believer v non-believer aspect. He certainly encouraged faith and meditation from scripture and hoped that would produce a relationship with God, but it was never used against us.
I want to think this counselor had good intentions, but her method of addressing this with just your fiancée is over the line to me and quite counterproductive to your goal as a couple to find better communication and agreement. I’d strongly suggest a new counselor; the efficacy of your current one seems to be broken going forward.
The wifey and I did this prior to our marriage as a requirement from the pastor who was going to be performing the wedding. He assisted with methods of communication and conflict resolution, all while intermingling the concept of faith and “Christ-like actions”. He knew neither one of us were professed believers and didn’t go to church outside of Christmas and Easter with my parents. Not once did he, in the midst of all his faith based advice, delve into the whole believer v non-believer aspect. He certainly encouraged faith and meditation from scripture and hoped that would produce a relationship with God, but it was never used against us.
I want to think this counselor had good intentions, but her method of addressing this with just your fiancée is over the line to me and quite counterproductive to your goal as a couple to find better communication and agreement. I’d strongly suggest a new counselor; the efficacy of your current one seems to be broken going forward.
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Picking and choosing which doctrines of Christianity you want to or don't want to follow (i.e. Pro-Choice Catholics) - instead of following it all.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
1) Counselor def crossed the line. You are paying this person for impartial advice, you were upfront about the situation, and this person crossed a line, and did so quickly. Was it his/her (?) recommendation for these individual sessions? If so, my assumption is that bringing this up to your fiancee was part of their plan from start. Absolutely zero reason to go back to this person, none. Find someone else.
2) Based on this quote:
2) Based on this quote:
I assume you don't live together? I'll say this much; you need to live together before getting married, it's for the benefit of both of you. If you are finding yourself in a counseling situation prior to moving in together, it does not get easier when you're under the same roof. I don't care if she spends 3-4 days a week at your place or vice versa, it's a different dynamic. I would not delay this if I was you.
whiskey7
Footballguy
Something is not really adding up here. Why would you intentionally book an advertised Christian therapist if the religious part of what they had to say is just going to be noise to you? Further, why on earth would you want go back to this one knowing it will bother you (and your ol lady) if she doesn't nix the Xtian elements?
What would make you think you're entitled to a refund?
I didn't blow off your point at all. I said there is no way to tell if she was being demeaning without being part of the conversation. You are getting only your fiancé's side of the situation and have no idea what the counselor really meant or was alluding too. I also have never heard of the cafeteria christian term so I am not sure what it really means. My guess is the counselor was just trying to gauge your fiancé's commitment to her faith........unless of course the counselor is terrible and is just pushing religion. There is still that possibility but I would say it should be investigated more before giving up.You kind of just blew off my point. This is your chance to work on communication skills.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Paul's letter to Timothy was overwhelmingly about false teaching in the church where Timothy was trying to work. And much of the problems were women who weren't learned in the scripture - mainly because they weren't allowed to by the powers that be and the culture. It was not a command to silence women in church because they are women, but a call to teach them, and if they aren't taught, to not let them lead. If you take 1 Timothy out of context then 2 Timothy makes no sense when Paul specifically tells him to go to a specific women for leadership, and ignores that a woman taught Apollos that was a leader in her church. As for 1 Corinthians, in other verses Paul specifically says that women can lead worship and lead prayer. So again, if you take one out of context - when Paul was specifically addressing a specific problem in that specific church at the time - you miss the point generally.
I am not sure why everyone thinks the counselor crossed the line. The counselor advised if it was ok to bring religion into the sessions and then she specifically asked the religious person about their religious beliefs. I would say that is specifically applicable to a situation of two people wanting to get married. Asking the person to look at a certain scripture pertaining to marrying a non-believer seems pertinent to this specific situation.
I have been to marriage counseling and the counselor needs to see where both parties stand on various subjects to help figure out how to help them communicate. Addressing religion with the religious person of the relationship seems like a good and necessary idea. Many times in order to get each person to be completely open and honest it helps to have one on one sessions and then bring what was found into the follow on joint sessions.
The only issue I can see is the best counselor's are able to build trust with the patients and that doesn't appear like it happened in this case since the fiancé was rattled by the line of questioning. However, it sounds like this is common as an issue with communication and not liking what is being said and digging into their position (as the OP clarified was part of the crux of their communication issues). That being said, if you don't trust the counselor based on her approach then it probably is a good idea to find a different counselor.
EYLive
Footballguy
There may also be differing core values. This might not always be the case, but an atheist and a devout Christian seem pretty opposite when it comes to values. How do you resolve conflict if you both have different standards for life?
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
I queried the various therapists in my area on psychologytoday's website and she was one of about fifteen. Over half of them had the "Christian" denotation on the list so I didn't think much of it. The method she uses (EFT) didn't say anything about Christ or faith being a requisite of the program. Being brought up in a Christian home and with my fiancee being Christian, I didn't have a problem with going to a "Christian" counselor.Something is not really adding up here. Why would you intentionally book an advertised Christian therapist if the religious part of what they had to say is just going to be noise to you? Further, why on earth would you want go back to this one knowing it will bother you (and your ol lady) if she doesn't nix the Xtian elements?
What would make you think you're entitled to a refund?
As far as going back, I liked the way the program was progressing before this incident. EFT is a scientific method, not a spiritual one. If the counselor can put the whole religious element on pause, at least in the context of trying to split us up, then I think we will benefit from the program. It's a smaller town, so there's not a ton of EFT options.
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
Binky The Doormat
Footballguy
new counselor most definitely - #### that judgemental ####.But she did. She said it was never a doubt in her mind and attempted to blow the counselor off during the first pass last week. Now she's really upset at the counselor for pressing the issue. She wants me in her life. Her Mom who is Christian wants me in her life. Her daughter who is Christian wants me in her life. The only person who has a problem with this is the counselor (and apparently God).
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Captain Cranks
Footballguy
whiskey7
Footballguy
Roger that. I thought you intentionally chose a therapist because she was advertising a Christian element and it didn't seem to make sense you'd do that and then be unhappy when she went with the Christian element in the therapy.
El Floppo
Footballguy
That one guy
Footballguy
From my understanding of the overall situation, the line being crossed here is an indirect (if not actual direct) challenge to both the fiancée’s personal faith and relationship with Capt Cranks, sort of a “can you have both?” kind of thing. They went to the counselor under the assumed pretext of communication issues and wanting to work better together as they proceed toward marriage. The challenge of faith, I think, is unwarranted in this environment. Doing it solo to the fiancée also feels opposite the goal of improved communication skills.
Like you said, though, if they’ve lost their trust in the counselor rightly or wrongly, it’s time to find a new one.
Angry Beavers
Footballguy
No offense to the OP, but run from this. This will not end well. This sounds like counseling to work on the relationship, not pre-marital couples counseling. If you are already going down the counseling road and going, yea but we are good, you are going to look back at this one day and say "That AB guy was right, I should have run. I should have stopped kidding myself."
I hope I am wrong and wish you luck with all of this.
To stay to the subject, yup, kick that counselor to the curb.
I hope I am wrong and wish you luck with all of this.
To stay to the subject, yup, kick that counselor to the curb.
EYLive
Footballguy
For example, in Christian doctrine, marriage is a covenant between the husband, wife AND God. You don't break a promise with God by getting a divorce. As an atheist, that belief doesn't come into play. A non-believer can marry and divorce willy-nilly, or they can also never entertain the idea of divorce as a personal (non-religious) belief. It all depends on what their basic core values are. Similar to political philosophies; a couple that don't agree on core political values may encounter more conflict when an important decision needs to be made for the family.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Never ever see a therapist you don't trust. If you can't see the therapist individually, you don't trust the therapist.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Reasons and rules are not the same thing as values.
If an atheist doesn't like divorce because he believes in honoring commitment to one's self and to one's partner and a theist doesn't like divorce because she believes in honoring commitment to one's self and to one's partner and to God, they both have the same or substantially similar values, just different paths to getting there.
Tom Skerritt
Footballguy
My (atheist) first serious long-term relationship was with a Christian girl (with strict baptist upbringing) when I was in college. Dated for almost three years. I was very naive and fully prepared to marry this girl. But religion was always an issue for her. Nevermind that she liked to party, experimented with weed, etc. I ended the relationship after I found out that she cheated on me. She remained single until her mid 30’s. And she is now married with kids to a Jewish guy.
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
Oddly enough, because of her faith, she stayed with her first husband longer than she wanted. It wasn't until he became abusive that she decided to leave. She wonders why God punished her for having tried to follow through on her commitment despite the fact that she wanted to leave.
Tom Skerritt
Footballguy
EYLive
Footballguy
If you adopt Judeo-Christian values, then those become your values. Some people are following rules, some adopt and share traditional values. My example for Cranks was the latter.
EYLive
Footballguy
Well if she thinks it's punishment, then that's a different issue. Not many answers from a third party.
FatMax
Member
But isn't that something a pre-marriage counselling session should be investigating? Pushing a person to see how strong or important their faith is to them and whether or not the other person being of a different faith (or no faith) is an important issue or not? I just don't see that as crossing the line. I see it is pushing to see what is important. Now after you look into it and come to your conclusion based on the line of questioning from the counselor and the counselor keeps trying to force you into something you don't want then it's over the line. That may have happened here but I didn't get that from the description of what happened.
NotSmart
Footballguy
On a related note, I recently heard the following fantastic quote:
"When you and your wife have a problem, remember, it's not you vs. your wife, it's you and your wife vs. the problem".
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Excellent!
It's similar to what I tell people... If it's with someone you care about, you never actually WIN a fight. If there's a winner and loser in that scenario, the relationship still lost.
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