Christians like to take credit for everything, but, they didn't coin the term monogamy.
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Christian counselor is trying to get fiancee to leave me because I'm a Non-believer (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Captain Cranks
- Start date
proteus126
Footballguy
Hi @Captain Cranks
A couple of thoughts.
I can speak to this a little bit not so much from a marriage angle but from a business angle. Which in some ways, is a little like a marriage.
My faith is very important to me. David, my business partner, does not share my beliefs.
There are many people, on both sides, who would caution people like us doing what we did going into business as equal partners. And not without good reasons.
I will say for David and myself, it's worked beautifully for 20 something years.
I think for us the key has been mutual respect.
With that said, marriage is different than business. We're not raising children together as equals. We're not spending 14 hours a day together making life decisions together. Business partners aren't exactly the same as marriage partners.
Marriage is challenging. If my son was an Athiest, I'd give caution to him marrying someone who was a devout Christian. If my son was a devout Christian, I'd give caution to him marrying someone who was an Athiest. It certainly can work. Many have proven it. But the differences are something that need to be addressed head-on and not ignored.
Best to and your fiancee as you work through this. Congratulations to you for addressing it now. I'm a big fan of pre-marital counseling to uncover areas that could be issues and address them. Wishing you the best.
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
Maybe I’m not being clear.
“Respect and love for family” is a Judeo Christian value. Getting it through a Judeo Christian path or Muslim path or atheist path doesn’t change what the value is. Whatever rule brings the value can be irrelevant.
EYLive
Footballguy
Duh, so people have different core values, OK? I swear it seems like you need to post about everything just to argue.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Zerp
Interdisciplinary Research
Lots of good advice here. Mine is get the pre-marriage counseling. 30 years of marriage and my wife and I still reminisce about good advice we received. Absolutely change counselors. Selective use of verses, shaming, your fiancee's reluctance for another 1:1 are all neon giant blinking red flags. You can do better.
Typo. Reluctance. Not reliance.
Typo. Reluctance. Not reliance.
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Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Some extra thoughts:
Some are thinking the therapist crossed a line. I disagree. Seems clear the therapist was very much up front about their methodology and how they would involve a faith-based approach to help solve their issues.
An issue arose when the general problem OP has with their fiancee didn't necessarily have or need a spiritual component or approach (more about overall communication strategies than something that arose directly from or as a symptom of difference in religious values). So the treatment approach didn't really match the underlying need cleanly.
Was it a mistake to see a faith-based therapist? Not necessarily. First of all, from experience, it can be really, really hard in some areas to find an available therapist, one that fits insurance plan needs, whatever, and sometimes you need to go with expediency. And as a generally non-religious person, I have no problem if someone is couching their approach in Judeo-Christian values (do unto others, for example).
It went south when the advice became divisive and specific around driving guilt and other approaches that didn't seem to address the underlying communication problems.
No harm, no foul, just find someone else if you can.
As a side note, I'm a Jew from a fairly observant family background who married a Catholic from a fairly observant background herself.
We went to something called pre-Cana which the Catholic church encourages for couples, especially for those marrying across faith.
Going around the room introducing ourselves and our different backgrounds, you had a Roman Catholic engaged to an Estern Orthodox Catholic; a Protestant and a Catholic; or *gasp* a Catholic and a Lutheran.
We literally blew minds when we announced our background. The priest had a long pregnant, wide-eyed pause. You could hear a pin drop. It was plain (based on reactions, questions, etc.) that not only had many of them not ever met a Jew in their lives, that we were destined to fail and no amount of discussion could help us with this insurmountable schism.
It was awesome.
Anyway, we're coming up on our 20th anniversary this spring.
We've "survived" by constantly making communication -- whether about religion or anything else -- a priority.
So good on you OP for being proactive and seeking help. It's a huge step that many don't think of taking after getting married, let alone beforehand. Keep working on communication and marriage, because no matter what anyone else may think, the only thing that matters is the relational health you and your soon-to-be-wife are able forge together.
Some are thinking the therapist crossed a line. I disagree. Seems clear the therapist was very much up front about their methodology and how they would involve a faith-based approach to help solve their issues.
An issue arose when the general problem OP has with their fiancee didn't necessarily have or need a spiritual component or approach (more about overall communication strategies than something that arose directly from or as a symptom of difference in religious values). So the treatment approach didn't really match the underlying need cleanly.
Was it a mistake to see a faith-based therapist? Not necessarily. First of all, from experience, it can be really, really hard in some areas to find an available therapist, one that fits insurance plan needs, whatever, and sometimes you need to go with expediency. And as a generally non-religious person, I have no problem if someone is couching their approach in Judeo-Christian values (do unto others, for example).
It went south when the advice became divisive and specific around driving guilt and other approaches that didn't seem to address the underlying communication problems.
No harm, no foul, just find someone else if you can.
As a side note, I'm a Jew from a fairly observant family background who married a Catholic from a fairly observant background herself.
We went to something called pre-Cana which the Catholic church encourages for couples, especially for those marrying across faith.
Going around the room introducing ourselves and our different backgrounds, you had a Roman Catholic engaged to an Estern Orthodox Catholic; a Protestant and a Catholic; or *gasp* a Catholic and a Lutheran.
We literally blew minds when we announced our background. The priest had a long pregnant, wide-eyed pause. You could hear a pin drop. It was plain (based on reactions, questions, etc.) that not only had many of them not ever met a Jew in their lives, that we were destined to fail and no amount of discussion could help us with this insurmountable schism.
It was awesome.
Anyway, we're coming up on our 20th anniversary this spring.
We've "survived" by constantly making communication -- whether about religion or anything else -- a priority.
So good on you OP for being proactive and seeking help. It's a huge step that many don't think of taking after getting married, let alone beforehand. Keep working on communication and marriage, because no matter what anyone else may think, the only thing that matters is the relational health you and your soon-to-be-wife are able forge together.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
I don't mean to offend but the bolded makes it easy to see why there are communication problems. You better make sure she's ready to give up her religion before you get married because you've already tuned it out. Otherwise, you may as well start planning your eventual divorce
skol asylum
Footballguy
SWC
Bromigo
cappy you know i like the jib of your cut so please take this hard earned advice from a guy who has been married for a long time people are afraid of two things in my experience first they are afraid of admitting they are wrong and they are afraid of just being happy my advice is the next time you and your lady get in to it just take a deep breath go and hug her and tell her you love her and ask her to take a pause and then come back to it later when you are both calmed down odds are you will both just agree to move on and be better for it and when it comes to faith questions dont find reasons to drive yourselves apart and make divisions instead just look at what you have in common and how you make eachother better and dont worry about what some yo yo whose apparently finds self value in judging and trying to control others has to say take that to the bank brohan
culdeus
Footballguy
ChiefD
Footballguy
Whoa whoa whoa here.....
Her name isn’t Marisa is it? Does her house need new gutters?
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
Let's just say I rocked the hell out of my Saints gear on our first date. This dude got laid with hugs that night.
Wildcat
Footballguy
This was me. Was in counseling with my fiancé trying to fix issues. Finally woke up and said “WTF am I doing? There are many more fish in the sea.” I broke off the engagement. Shortly after I met a more compatible person who I’ve been happily married to for 10 years.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
There is so much insight, good advice and well meaning in this thread, it really shows the FFA at its best.
Capn, I guess my one thought here is that there’s no problem with the counselor as Christian piece. However it’s not the religion but that the counselor weighed in on advising against marriage. He pointed to the Bible to do that but it doesn’t matter, I don’t think advising on do/don’t get married is his role. I’d say let him cite chapter and verse if he wants to but he needs to stay out of your and your fiancé’s decision to get married itself.
The only other point I’d think about is that some will cite biblical verse, and they make really authoritative noises, but those verses and the context they’re placed in really may not say what these self-professed experts say. I think even a non-religious person can look at those and see that. If this counselor isn’t counseling love, growth, improving the world and doing that with the woman you love and the man she loves then he’s doing it wrong. And I think you are more of an expert on those verses than he is. You may not want to go there but that’s my surmisal.
Best wishes to you and your lady. - SID
Capn, I guess my one thought here is that there’s no problem with the counselor as Christian piece. However it’s not the religion but that the counselor weighed in on advising against marriage. He pointed to the Bible to do that but it doesn’t matter, I don’t think advising on do/don’t get married is his role. I’d say let him cite chapter and verse if he wants to but he needs to stay out of your and your fiancé’s decision to get married itself.
The only other point I’d think about is that some will cite biblical verse, and they make really authoritative noises, but those verses and the context they’re placed in really may not say what these self-professed experts say. I think even a non-religious person can look at those and see that. If this counselor isn’t counseling love, growth, improving the world and doing that with the woman you love and the man she loves then he’s doing it wrong. And I think you are more of an expert on those verses than he is. You may not want to go there but that’s my surmisal.
Best wishes to you and your lady. - SID
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
The Bible also says, "Judge not. lest ye be judged." Here Wikipedia is your friend. Cafeteria Chistian is a pejorative. The fact that the counselor used the term in this way is a judgment that demonstrates clearly what her bias is. I'd be dropping her like a hot rock. What she did is the religious equivalent of body shaming.
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ChainsawU
Footballguy
Agreed. Cafeteria christian feels like someone heard a "clever" term and/or mistook alliteration for actual intelligence and decided to use it for themselves to sound smart.
What's up, man. Sorry to hear you're having troubles with your fiancee. How long have you two known each other? How long have you been engaged, and when is the wedding date? How big are y'alls families and what type/how big of a religious influence is family on the situation?
ChainsawU
Footballguy
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
Completely disagree. It's just not necessary. Might be nice, but that sort of absolute is just not true.
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
What I get from this is that you don't understand atheism or Christianity. There is no opposite involved, implied or otherwise.
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
matuski
Footballguy
Require it?
Aside from my personal reaction to this idea, I've never seen that... new development in the last 15 years?
matuski
Footballguy
What values do you see atheists holding that are opposite to those of religious people?
I see the opposition in a belief (not a value) regarding a god... beyond that I can't really think of any values a Christian could hold that anyone else couldn't.
culdeus
Footballguy
I mean their church their rules. You want to get married somewhere gotta jump thru the hoops.
matuski
Footballguy
Right.. I didn't encounter this 15 years ago.
eta - little jealous.. would have been a huge help to us imo.
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culdeus
Footballguy
Jealous of what? Three like 45 min sessions with a minister running down a checklist of items. Guy mainly wanted to figure out if I was going to sacrifice a goat at the alter and drink the blood.
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
This is the key for us as well. At the beginning of our relationship, I would make sarcastic remarks about Christians or what they believed as being illogical. That made her feel as though I looked down upon her for believing what she did. I've since realized the error in my ways and am careful not to be derogatory around her. She's not a devout Christian, but her beliefs do need to be respected and I wasn't doing that as well as I should in the past.
We've been together 2 years. This would both be our second marriage so we want to make sure we do it right this time. We're having a difficult time with my son who is struggling with the stepfamily premise, so we've pushed the engagement off indefinitely. Both sets of parents are Christian, but that's not a big deal. As I said earlier, her mother, father, and daughter want us to be together despite knowing I"m a non-believer.
My hope is that we can get back on track with finishing the EFT program without the counselor trying to break us up. I believe we can accomplish that despite the current dynamic.
I think this is part of the problem with the counselor. Some of the Bible verses she's referred to my SO 2 Corinthians 6:14 1 Corinthians 15:33 suggest that I'm a child-eating devil worshiper. She doesn't know me. She doesn't know my values. If anything, I encourage my fiancee to be a better person. I mean, I taught her to not leave the grocery cart in the parking lot, for god sake.
Excellent advice, brochacho. This cuts to the core of our issues. We know that when we calm down we can have a reasonable and positive conversation about our differences of opinion. It's getting to that point faster rather than letting it drag out a day that we're working on. The counselor taught us that studies have shown that when a person's heart rate gets above a certain level, their ability to listen and be empathetic decreases dramatically. Thus, the taking a pause and come back to it later is a key ingredient to success.
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pantherclub
Footballguy
wrong thread
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matuski
Footballguy
Just never occurred to me or us (church never suggested it either) to do some sort of counseling before getting married.
We all know where I stand on the religious garbage, but in general I imagine pre marriage counseling would have made our early years a little smoother.
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
Yeah, I think some on this board have a pretty antiquated view of counseling. It's not just for people who are struggling and likely destined for failure; it's also for solid couples to learn how to get better for each other.
EYLive
Footballguy
OK fine, not opposite, but much different than someone of the same belief system. People in here just like to take personal shots at others right out of the gate, huh? It's ugly. The OP asks for advice and all some of you want to do is play Gotcha, and purposely be obtuse while adding nothing to the thread.
EYLive
Footballguy
El Floppo
Footballguy
for sure- not an absolute. lots of people get married just fine without.
but living together shines a light on exactly how people live and like to live. when you're getting married- that's good info to know about beforehand. IME, I've had a relationship die because of things we discovered about each other while living together. also means there's nowhere to hide- can't storm out and go home to avoid an argument or disagreement. even that safety net affects how people relate to each other... again- ime.
I liken it to people who abstain from sex pre-marriage. sure, it may work out just fine... but it also might not- purely from a fit perspective. that's info I personally need to have beforehand.. along with the nookie.
The basis of your post (that you made to try and help) was that atheists and Christians have opposite values. It would be a disservice in helping the OP to not correct false statements like that. It's not personnel, it's just incorrect.EYLive said:
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Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
I can tell you aren't Methodists. (They required a counseling session twenty years ago when Mr R and i got married.)culdeus said:
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
Isn't that kind of what you did? And the values of people of different religions (or no religion) don't have to be any different.EYLive said:
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
If that's necessary, then immaturity might be the issue, rather than living/not living together. Living together isn't the necessary thing. Sufficient knowlege about, and respect for, the other person is more important. I knew Mr R for about ten years before we started dating. We were already best friends. Living together really didn't change anything.El Floppo said:
Actually, the thing that told me we were okay together is when we both had the Martian Death Flu, back in around 1996. If your partner isn't annoying under those circumstances, he likely won't ever be.
culdeus
Footballguy
Officer Pete Malloy
Footballguy
I am a wedding officiant thanks to the State of California and the Universal Life Church.
Every so often I will have couples ask me “do you require us to do pre-marital counseling?” I always say “no, that would be something that happens through your church.”
What I want to say is “It’s your funeral. $400. Check now or cash at the rehearsal.”
Every so often I will have couples ask me “do you require us to do pre-marital counseling?” I always say “no, that would be something that happens through your church.”
What I want to say is “It’s your funeral. $400. Check now or cash at the rehearsal.”
Jayrod
Footballguy
The counselor isn't wrong.
If your fiancee does truly follow Jesus and you do not, marriage to a non-Christisn is not a good idea. Being a Christian includes every part of your life. To not be able to share that with your spouse is a recipe for problems. She will either need to greatly compromise her beliefs, or force them upon you...neither is a good thing.
One thing the Bible is very clear about is that God hates divorce.
If your fiancee does truly follow Jesus and you do not, marriage to a non-Christisn is not a good idea. Being a Christian includes every part of your life. To not be able to share that with your spouse is a recipe for problems. She will either need to greatly compromise her beliefs, or force them upon you...neither is a good thing.
One thing the Bible is very clear about is that God hates divorce.
Binky The Doormat
Footballguy
My wife is Catholic, and I am Presbyterian. We had to go to those classes that couples have to take in order to get married in the Catholic church. It was fairly brutal and we (meaning me) were pointed out a number of times as being "challenged" being of mixed religion. In our private session with the priest/counselor he looked her straight in the eyes and told her that she shouldn't marry me, that I was not of her faith, and I was too selfish (being almost 30 and never married - and whatever those personality tests show). What a ####.
I was like "hey, I'm sittin' right here father!" Luckily my wife just laughed and said she thought we were right for each other. Of course, I had to sign papers that we would raise our kids Catholic in order to get married in the Catholic church.
We have raised our kids Catholic, and educated them in Catholic schools. Thirty-one years later - here we are. Sit on it father!!
I was like "hey, I'm sittin' right here father!" Luckily my wife just laughed and said she thought we were right for each other. Of course, I had to sign papers that we would raise our kids Catholic in order to get married in the Catholic church.
We have raised our kids Catholic, and educated them in Catholic schools. Thirty-one years later - here we are. Sit on it father!!
mr roboto
Footballguy
Evangelizing to non believers. Raising the Children to believe Christianity. Going on missions trips. Praying together. Tithing.
I could go on. An actively religious person (Christian or Jewish or Muslim) could have vastly different money and time priorities, not to mention how they want to raise the children.
Could they share similar ‘values?’ Sure. Like be nice and love others and give generously? Yes. But for a religious person their fundamental belief in a personal God shaped their priorities greatly.
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