Fictional Indian Grocer And Expired Meat - Racist? (1 Viewer)

[Joe Bryant]

Had a similar conversation with friends recently about “over-the-line” humor.  My historic take on the matter was as long as it’s funny, it goes.  But seeing as humor is subjective, I revised my view to, “As long as it comes from a good place.”  There is a world of difference between celebrating, exploring or illuminating for the purpose of bringing people into a deeper understanding of a truth or nuance, and seeking to demean, belittle or diminish.  Same thing applies to this example, and art generally.

I hear you Mr. Ham, but in most cases, isn't it impossible to tell if it "comes from a good place"?  I mean, I know basically nothing about the Simpson's writers other than they're super successful. They might be super kind folks or they could be way worse. In most cases, aren't we left with just the art / story / product itself to decide?

 

[Sinn Fein]

I am somewhat surprised that as many people did not recognize this as a Simpson's episode involving Apu - I don't watch Simpsons, but this incident has been in the news. 

 

[Sinn Fein]

Here is a quick background from the comedian who made the documentary - and why he did so

 

[Arodin]

So if anyone posting here thinks this is inherrently racist, can you tell me which races it would be acceptable to cast as the grocer?

I'm having trouble seeing why this would be racist.  Maybe I'm missing a longstanding stereotype about Indian grocers bending the regulations?  That isnt something I associate with any particular ethnic group.

 

[rockaction]

I knew this was Apu. On one hand, he's a vicious stereotype, on the other hand, they show his humanity so often through the course of the show's airings that the cold meanness that the writers direct at him at times is lost in a wave of humanity (think of the wedding episode for a humane look at him and his family.) Apu also provides a useful vehicle through which the series can, in upper-lower-middle class Springfield, show how cultures integrate and how difficult it is for a non-Western person to adopt Western culture and for Western culture to adapt to an immigrant. 

Overall: Not really that racist.  

 

[Ilov80s]

Good questions. 

It's a bodega type convenience store.

The customer is white.

I added to the question to make it more clear:  In a fictional story, a grocer takes some meat that is past the expiration date, crosses off the expiration date and sells it. The grocer is Indian. The customer who buys it gets sick. Is it racist of the writers of the show to write the story with this action?

The storyline isn’t racist. How the clerk is portrayed is where issues may or may not come. If it’s a caricature then that is no good, if it’s a fully formed character than it’s not such a big deal.

 

[Joe Summer]

Walking Boot said:

The longstanding stereotype is that Indians run convenience stores.

Right. But there's nothing negative about that stereotype. Many Italians own pizza places. Many Japanese people own sushi restaurants. Many Jews are comedians. It's not wrong for The Simpsons to create characters like that.

Now, if The Simpsons had implied that Apu re-dated the meat because that's a stereotypically Indian thing to do, then it would be wrong.

But The Simpsons didn't do that. Apu's actions had nothing to do with stereotypes relating to his ethnicity.

 

[tonydead]

First sports teams mascots and now cartoon characters.  

 

[Arizona Ron]

Thanks @Arizona Ron, can you expand on what you mean by this? I'm not sure I've ever really thought of this. Thanks.

Think of church on Sunday where everyone in a community has an unspoken dress code for church on Sunday; men in shirts/ties, women in dresses.

If someone in said community points out the expected dress code, it may be construed as being racist instead of simply inappropriate for that community’s Sunday service.  

Black deacon tells a white gay camo is inappropriate, racist.

White deacon tells a young black guy boots and sports jerseys are in appropriate, racist.

Hispanic deacon tells a South Asian man his flip flops are inappropriate, racist.

Etc etc etc.  People jump to the race thing too fast IMO.

 

[Judge Smails]

Not at all. Lots of races own grocery stores and sell expired stuff. Turn it into convenience food for those lacking skill or too lazy to season and cook the fresh stuff 

 

[Joe Bryant]

Think of church on Sunday where everyone in a community has an unspoken dress code for church on Sunday; men in shirts/ties, women in dresses.

If someone in said community points out the expected dress code, it may be construed as being racist instead of simply inappropriate for that community’s Sunday service.  

Black deacon tells a white gay camo is inappropriate, racist.

White deacon tells a young black guy boots and sports jerseys are in appropriate, racist.

Hispanic deacon tells a South Asian man his flip flops are inappropriate, racist.

Etc etc etc.  People jump to the race thing too fast IMO.

Thanks. Much appreciated.

 

[EYLive]

You mean South Asian or Native American (calling anyone "Indian" is a bit dated)?

At no point has calling a person from India, "Indian", ever been dated.

 

[BLOCKED_PUNT]

It's still not racist. 

 

[Arizona Ron]

At no point has calling a person from India, "Indian", ever been dated.

The problem is when the person is not from India but fits what we consider “Indian”.  It’s no different than calling someone from Argentina a Mexican.

 

[Chaka]

So...are we only allowed to show white people selling dated meat?

 

[shuke]

Not enough context to have any idea.

 

[EYLive]

The problem is when the person is not from India but fits what we consider “Indian”.  It’s no different than calling someone from Argentina a Mexican.

You're referring to an issue that does not exist in this thread.

 

[Arizona Ron]

You're referring to an issue that does not exist in this thread.

New here?

 

[Charlie Steiner]

What if Apu had been written the exact same way for the last 25 years, but all along the writer was actually from India?  My gut feeling is that this is more about who gets to write the material than the material itself.

 

[Black Box]

It was a good run, Simpsons.

 

[Joe Bryant]

What if Apu had been written the exact same way for the last 25 years, but all along the writer was actually from India?  My gut feeling is that this is more about who gets to write the material than the material itself.

That's an interesting point. I tend to think sort of like I said with Mr. Ham's comments - I don't think it matters as the viewer doesn't know much about the writer. You have to look at the show as what it is. The vast majority of the people that "consume" the product have no idea about the creator. 

What do you guys think? Would people feel different about Apu if the writer was from India?

 

[Charlie Steiner]

That's an interesting point. I tend to think sort of like I said with Mr. Ham's comments - I don't think it matters as the viewer doesn't know much about the writer. You have to look at the show as what it is. The vast majority of the people that "consume" the product have no idea about the creator. 

What do you guys think? Would people feel different about Apu if the writer was from India?

It's easy for me to say that it doesn't matter who wrote what when I like it or find it funny, because people who look like me have been doing the bulk of the writing/producing the material we consume on TV basically from the beginning, so I can't say whether it would bother me if someone who doesn't look like me is behind most of what we see on TV.  

I do know, however, that there are a couple of examples I can point to where having the writer's ethnicity enhanced the 'product'.  First, obviously, is Blazing Saddles.  Granted, Mel Brooks co-wrote with Richard Pryor, but I haven't investigated who wrote which parts, because the whole thing is equally funny, despite and because of the racial sterotypes and taboos it addressed.  Maybe some of the material in that movie doesn't resonate as strongly with me because "you'd have to be black to understand it", but again, it was still pretty funny to me, so I don't care who wrote what.

The second example is Airplane!, specifically the two passengers who only spoke Jive.  On its surface, having two black men whom no one can understand even though they're speaking English is pretty racist, but now that time has passed, we've learned that the two actors were given a lot of freedom to create their own dialog. To me, because the actors understood what the producers were looking for and were willing to commit to it, it was miles better than what just about any white writer could have written, and it made the movie that much funnier. 

If Apu had remained a one-trick pony, there would be a stronger case for his portrayal being racist; however, if there's elements to his backstory and/or the more 'Indian' things that have been portrayed on the show that show cultural ignorance on the writers' part, then there's a case to be made.  I still just feel like the real issue is along the lines of if the person writing a character/show isn't of the ethnicity/gender/sexual orientation, etc. of what's portrayed, then it's labeled racist/sexist, etc.  

 

[proteus126]

That's an interesting point. I tend to think sort of like I said with Mr. Ham's comments - I don't think it matters as the viewer doesn't know much about the writer. You have to look at the show as what it is. The vast majority of the people that "consume" the product have no idea about the creator. 

What do you guys think? Would people feel different about Apu if the writer was from India?

I wouldn't GAF either way.  If it is funny, I'm in.  Humor based on stereotypes is A-OK, as long as it doesn't get too mean.  I can't give a definition of "too mean" and have no interest in trying.

In general, my feeling is if it is an attempt at humor, and it offends, don't read/watch.  Humor is a great gift, and we should err on the side of tolerance in the execution of the effort.

 

[Sweet J]

Pretty sure the "Indian Grocer"/Apu caricature is racist now. Doesn't matter if he sells old meat or not.

I think this seriously oversimplifies the issue. 

 

[Sweet J]

Good questions. 

It's a bodega type convenience store.

The customer is white.

I added to the question to make it more clear:  In a fictional story, a grocer takes some meat that is past the expiration date, crosses off the expiration date and sells it. The grocer is Indian. The customer who buys it gets sick. Is it racist of the writers of the show to write the story with this action?

Joe, you want to make sure you don't fall into a trap that many good intentioned, thoughtful conservative people get into.  Which is to oversimplify a complex issue (to be fair good-intentioned, thoughtful, liberal people also oversimplify). 

As written, no, I don't see anything objectionable.  But the surrounding storyline, plot, and actions of the characters, including the store owner, shed light on the issue.

I'll give you an example:  The Apu character from the Simpsons.  His character alone isn't the problem that I understand folks have with him.  It's the fact that the vast majority of his interactions on screen emphasize the trope of the Indian 7-11 owner.  Where are his kids?  How do they interact?  How do they establish themselves as Americans?  How do they reconcile their culture?  What about Apu's other interactions with people -- how does he conduct himself other than being a shopowner?  People who have complained about him just want to see a more in-depth characterization of him.

That being said, I haven't watched the show for years.  Do they give the police officer more to work with than being a fat lazy cop?  Ms. Krabapple?  The religious nut neighbor? Moe (I do believe I remember giving Moe some more flushed out characterization than a burned out bar owner).

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Asking the FFA for feedback on this one. I know this is dangerous material so I'll ask you to please be kind and thoughtful. I promise it's not a trap, but I'm also asking you up front to be cool. 

I recently listened to a podcast where this question was asked:

In a fictional story, a grocer takes some meat that is past the expiration date, crosses off the expiration date and sells it. The customer who buys it gets sick. The grocer is Indian.

Is it racist of the writers of the show to write the story with this action?

I had some discussion with people and thought I'd throw it out to the FFA to see what you folks thought. No real need for discussion unless you just want to. I'm mainly interested in anonymous voting.

Thanks.

Apu should never have sold it to Homer, but what are you going to do?

 

[Sweet J]

Thanks for the thoughtful discussion guys.

Some more info. The podcast I referenced was  http://www.sporkful.com/live-hari-dreams-of-donuts/ 

The guest on the podcast is comedian Hari Kondabolu. He's done a highly rated documentary called the Problem with Apu about the Simpsons character.

I intentionally didn't mention Apu as I wanted to parse out the caricature / character of Apu stuff from the actual action of an Indian character selling expired meat. 

Whether the character of Apu is racist is a completely different question. 

In the podcast, the consensus among the guest and host was the storyline with Apu selling the expired meat was totally racist. I wondered how much of their opinion was based on the other things the character did and how the writers portrayed him. 

I do think it feels like a different question when it's asked, "Apu from the Simpsons takes some meat that is past the expiration date, crosses off the expiration date and sells it to Homer who gets sick. Is it racist of the writers of the show to write the story with this action?"

Thanks for the thoughtful discussion.

this is where I don't think these guys are being fair.  Their perception of Apu's action being written as racist is really hard to divorce from their perception of Apu's character as written generally.  So when Apu crosses off the expired meat and resells it, it's just one more point that adds up to "this characterization of him sucks."  It's hard to think of it in a vacuum because the totality of Apu's character just upsets so many people.

And like I wrote above-- my take in this is NOT that Apu's character is written horribly, it's that the show doesn't give any other positive (or even non-negative) portrayals of South Asians.  At least that's what I pick up from listening to podcasts about it.  If they mad Apu or his family a LITTLE more nuanced, there would probably be less objection. 

 

[Sweet J]

but what are you going to do?

I see what you did there. 

 

[Sweet J]

What if Apu had been written the exact same way for the last 25 years, but all along the writer was actually from India?  My gut feeling is that this is more about who gets to write the material than the material itself.

The insinuation that I've heard from people is that if Apu was written by a guy of Indian descent, his character (and maybe surrounding characters?) would be richer and more complex. An un-testable theory, it appears. 

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

We have to assume racism and it's on the white guy to prove that it isn't.

 

[Da Guru]

Asking the FFA for feedback on this one. I know this is dangerous material so I'll ask you to please be kind and thoughtful. I promise it's not a trap, but I'm also asking you up front to be cool. 

I recently listened to a podcast where this question was asked:

In a fictional story, a grocer takes some meat that is past the expiration date, crosses off the expiration date and sells it. The customer who buys it gets sick. The grocer is Indian.

Is it racist of the writers of the show to write the story with this action?

I had some discussion with people and thought I'd throw it out to the FFA to see what you folks thought. No real need for discussion unless you just want to. I'm mainly interested in anonymous voting.

Thanks.

"Non Chain" Arab grocers in low income Detroit areas have been caught doing this many times and it is not fictional.

A shocking study by a food task force finds Detroit severely lacking in quality food retailers.

The majority carry inventory that just might make you gag: rotten produce (18 percent), expired food (38 percent) and expired meat (22 percent).

Others are notorious for dirty conditions, including the presence of mold on food.

Clearly, food safety and sanitation pose a health risk to consumers. But there's also the issue of how much this is hurting the city's economy and low-income inhabitants,.

 

[Charlie Steiner]

 An un-testable theory, it appears. 

Hey Holm, I can dig it! You know he ain't gonna lay no mo' big rap upon you man!

 

[parasaurolophus]

too hard to separate from Apu. 

If this was a House episode where people got sick and they were trying got figure it out and they worked backward to a grocery store where an Indian grocer had done this, then absolutely not racist.

But Apu is racist. I mean it is a white guy doing an indian voice. I think such things are fine as long as they are in good fun. Can easily see how using that character and voice to engage in bad actions crosses a different line. 

 

[EYLive]

New here?

You're one of those people that can never admit they're wrong, huh?

 

[Joe Bryant]

Joe, you want to make sure you don't fall into a trap that many good intentioned, thoughtful conservative people get into.  Which is to oversimplify a complex issue (to be fair good-intentioned, thoughtful, liberal people also oversimplify). 

As written, no, I don't see anything objectionable.  But the surrounding storyline, plot, and actions of the characters, including the store owner, shed light on the issue.

I'll give you an example:  The Apu character from the Simpsons.  His character alone isn't the problem that I understand folks have with him.  It's the fact that the vast majority of his interactions on screen emphasize the trope of the Indian 7-11 owner.  Where are his kids?  How do they interact?  How do they establish themselves as Americans?  How do they reconcile their culture?  What about Apu's other interactions with people -- how does he conduct himself other than being a shopowner?  People who have complained about him just want to see a more in-depth characterization of him.

That being said, I haven't watched the show for years.  Do they give the police officer more to work with than being a fat lazy cop?  Ms. Krabapple?  The religious nut neighbor? Moe (I do believe I remember giving Moe some more flushed out characterization than a burned out bar owner).

Thanks SJ.

I totally get what you're saying. But I'm ok there. It's not about trying to make it simple as much as it was trying to separate the action itself from a known character that most people already had an opinion of. 

It was the question of "Is the action the writers wrote into the story racist?" compared to "Is the character of Apu racist?" I think those are both important but very different questions. And that's why I broke it up like that.

 

[Arizona Ron]

You're one of those people that can never admit they're wrong, huh?

Off topic? Debatable.

Wrong, no.

 

[Joe Summer]

Sweet J said:

I'll give you an example: The Apu character from the Simpsons. His character alone isn't the problem that I understand folks have with him. It's the fact that the vast majority of his interactions on screen emphasize the trope of the Indian 7-11 owner. Where are his kids? How do they interact? How do they establish themselves as Americans? How do they reconcile their culture? What about Apu's other interactions with people -- how does he conduct himself other than being a shopowner? People who have complained about him just want to see a more in-depth characterization of him.

I would argue that Apu is the most in-depth south Asian character in the history of American television.

Yeah, the show occasionally exaggerates some Indian tropes at Apu's expense. But it does the same thing to many other cultures -- and the fact that Indians are treated as an equal to those other cultures is something that should be considered as a positive, not a negative.

Apu has done more to promote tolerance and understanding of Indians than any other cultural icon in the past 30 years.

 

[EYLive]

Off topic? Debatable.

Wrong, no.

 

[AAABatteries]

Is this a sequel to Mr. Ishida's bookstore?