FOX Sports is reporting Pats taped practice (1 Viewer)

[Filthy]

I guess I'm a little confused how some people (seemingly those that are desperate to believe BB/Patriots aren't guilty) don't see the NFL's/Patriots actions for what they are; character assassination. Someone comes forward to offer proof and the PR machine steps up to say 'who? Oh you mean the guy that got fired for taping conversations?' While not as bad, it's like bringing up the sexual history of a rape victim. What's really laughable is that Bill Belichick of all people are in on the

character smear! Crassic.

That as well as Bill Belichick saying 'he couldn't pick him out of a lineup' when to listen to former NFL players checking on radio talk shows stating that practices are BASED around the camera's position. Also, that there's a close relationship to the camera guy (usually only 1 or 2 guys videotaping) and the players/coaches. These are NFL insiders who are calling BS on Belichick's assertion he doesn't know the guy and hardly film anything.

Link to a radio talk show I've been listening to? I'm sure the CIA is monitoring that but I don't have that link either!The player who stated that was Marcellus Wiley on The Two Live Stews (sp?) Sportsradio talkshow on 790 the zone here in Atlanta.

 

[kevinray]

I guess I'm a little confused how some people (seemingly those that are desperate to believe BB/Patriots aren't guilty) don't see the NFL's/Patriots actions for what they are; character assassination. Someone comes forward to offer proof and the PR machine steps up to say 'who? Oh you mean the guy that got fired for taping conversations?' While not as bad, it's like bringing up the sexual history of a rape victim. What's really laughable is that Bill Belichick of all people are in on the

character smear! Crassic.

That as well as Bill Belichick saying 'he couldn't pick him out of a lineup' when to listen to former NFL players checking on radio talk shows stating that practices are BASED around the camera's position. Also, that there's a close relationship to the camera guy (usually only 1 or 2 guys videotaping) and the players/coaches. These are NFL insiders who are calling BS on Belichick's assertion he doesn't know the guy and hardly film anything.

I would've been surprised if they didn't film practices. Patriot’s walkthroughs before games was what Belichick has said he doesn’t film and I don't see any reason why they would. Why review something that’s at such a low speed and just a player refresher for your own team? Practices are different though and coaching evaluation of them and stationing of drills around cameras is common and I don't think they've ever said they don't do those normal things. People saying Bill couldn't pick Walsh out of a line up is BS is the only real story there and I'm waiting until there’s people willing to testify to that before I take much stock in it.

 

[Kit Fisto]

Yeah, Wiley said the same on NFL Total Access last night. Doesn't make him the authority. He's a dude with an opinion. And you know what they say about opinions...

We all believe who we choose to believe. I choose to believe BB, Jimmy Johnson, etc. who say taping was common practice. I also believe Matt Walsh has got nothing in regards to walk-throughs and has gotten himself in way too deep. You believe the other camp. We got it.

 

[Kit Fisto]

...I'm waiting until there’s people willing to testify to that before I take much stock in it.

Word up.

 

[redman]

I get the feeling that Belichick would LOVE to blow the lid off of this whole Spygate thing and tell what he knows to the press and Specter. In terms of what he did, how long other teams were doing it, the hypocrisy of the league in punishing the Patriots while having a history of "nudge and wink" to other infractions like this (like the Dolphins a couple of years ago) - Belichick is a student of the game, and probably knows more about the history of the NFL than anybody. If he took Specter through the evolution of this type of activity over the years by many teams, I'd bet "Spygate" would probably go away.

I think Goodell has put a gag order on Belichick not to divulge the league's dirty laundry. Just my opinion.

You want him on that wall! You need him on that wall!

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

cliff notes version of this 13 pager?

TIA

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

cliff notes version of this 13 pager?TIA

Forecast is that Walsh won't come forward as respective lawyers can't come to terms on indemnification. Belichick gives a phenomenal spygate discussion speech, and we learn that Walsh was terminated for illegally taping a conversation between himself and Scott Pioli (other Patriots employees will testify to coroborate). Patriots bashing rhetoric is accordingly running out of steam, and trollers are beginning to attack each other.Good stuff!

 

[Class Dismissed]

Yeah, Wiley said the same on NFL Total Access last night. Doesn't make him the authority. He's a dude with an opinion. And you know what they say about opinions...

Yeah, opinions are like Belichicks, and everybody's got one.

 

[switz]

You do realize the person in question was terminated by the Patriots, don't you?

And? So what, he worked for them and moved on was fired for cause...

Lets not be disingenuous about this part.

Any evidence he was fired? I've heard conflicting reports.

from this ESPN Article In the winter of 2002-03, Walsh said he was fired by Patriots vice president for player personnel Scott Pioli, and then spent a year on the video staff of the Cologne Centurions in now-defunct NFL Europe. Walsh says he was frustrated with the monotony of the scouting job in New England -- he focused on the few football-playing colleges in western New York -- and that may have been a factor in his dismissal.

This jives with what I've heard. Walsh was ready to walk, and submitted his resignation. Then was told he was being fired for insubordination.IMO, the Patriots knew that Walsh was not the sort of person to keep his mouth closed, so they made sure if he ever spoke, they had "dirt" on him.

 

[Bill]

i tried to go back and read a lot of this post but its way to long so maybe this has already been posted.

has anyone heard how walch's resume and his wedding invitations(that he has posted on his own blogging site) are full of lies about what his job was with the pats?? claims to have been a scout, etc.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

i tried to go back and read a lot of this post but its way to long so maybe this has already been posted.has anyone heard how walch's resume and his wedding invitations(that he has posted on his own blogging site) are full of lies about what his job was with the pats?? claims to have been a scout, etc.

I had not heard that. He was promoted to scouting from the video department, but resigned or was terminated due to lackluster scouting performance / interest and, allegedly, for illegal videotaping of a conversation between himself and Scott Pioli.

 

[bryan215]

i tried to go back and read a lot of this post but its way to long so maybe this has already been posted.has anyone heard how walch's resume and his wedding invitations(that he has posted on his own blogging site) are full of lies about what his job was with the pats?? claims to have been a scout, etc.

I had not heard that. He was promoted to scouting from the video department, but resigned or was terminated due to lackluster scouting performance / interest and, allegedly, for illegal videotaping of a conversation between himself and Scott Pioli.

From PFTOther easily available information to scrutinize is Walsh's bio for his current job. In it, he says that he "served primarily as an Area Scout and Video Assistant from 1996-2003" with the Patriots. But Pioli told the Boston Globe that Walsh was never an Area Scout. So if the Pats and/or Pioli can prove this, it would be another strike against him.In fact, Walsh's overall bio requires the full-blown Fran Foley treatment. Based on the article regarding his then-looming nuptials, he was 28 in July 2004 and is a Gemini. Thus, he's presently 31. Unless he pulled a Doogie Howser (or a Forrest Gump), it's hard to cram everything he claims to have done into the period of time that would require him to get a college degree, play two years of pro hockey, train with the U.S. National Bobsled team, spend a year working for an Arena League team, seven with the Pats, one with NFL Europe, and then become an assistant golf pro in Hawaii.The article about his wedding describes his time with the Pats as including "operations, public relations, video/game planning, area scout." Game planning? Um. Okay.Other questions about Walsh should be asked. Such as, for example, how he found -- and how he can afford -- a Washington, D.C. lawyer who specializes in white-collar crime and government investigations. Could it be that Senator Specter hooked Walsh up with Michael Levy, and/or that Levy is handling the matter at no charge as a "favor" to the Senator?

 

[AB in DC]

IMO, the Patriots knew that Walsh was not the sort of person to keep his mouth closed, so they made sure if he ever spoke, they had "dirt" on him.

It's good practice for any employer to keep a paper trail on any employee who is fired. I'd imagine the Pats are no different.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

i tried to go back and read a lot of this post but its way to long so maybe this has already been posted.has anyone heard how walch's resume and his wedding invitations(that he has posted on his own blogging site) are full of lies about what his job was with the pats?? claims to have been a scout, etc.

I had not heard that. He was promoted to scouting from the video department, but resigned or was terminated due to lackluster scouting performance / interest and, allegedly, for illegal videotaping of a conversation between himself and Scott Pioli.

From PFTOther easily available information to scrutinize is Walsh's bio for his current job. In it, he says that he "served primarily as an Area Scout and Video Assistant from 1996-2003" with the Patriots. But Pioli told the Boston Globe that Walsh was never an Area Scout. So if the Pats and/or Pioli can prove this, it would be another strike against him.In fact, Walsh's overall bio requires the full-blown Fran Foley treatment. Based on the article regarding his then-looming nuptials, he was 28 in July 2004 and is a Gemini. Thus, he's presently 31. Unless he pulled a Doogie Howser (or a Forrest Gump), it's hard to cram everything he claims to have done into the period of time that would require him to get a college degree, play two years of pro hockey, train with the U.S. National Bobsled team, spend a year working for an Arena League team, seven with the Pats, one with NFL Europe, and then become an assistant golf pro in Hawaii.The article about his wedding describes his time with the Pats as including "operations, public relations, video/game planning, area scout." Game planning? Um. Okay.Other questions about Walsh should be asked. Such as, for example, how he found -- and how he can afford -- a Washington, D.C. lawyer who specializes in white-collar crime and government investigations. Could it be that Senator Specter hooked Walsh up with Michael Levy, and/or that Levy is handling the matter at no charge as a "favor" to the Senator?

Ouch. Bad news for Patriots haters.:thumbsup:

 

[Chaz McNulty]

Let the character assasination begin. If you don't like the message, then smear the messenger. This is really pathetic.

I wonder how long before we hear that he cheated on a grade 7 social studies exam?

 

[Avery]

Hate to chime in on such a contentious and polarizing discussion, but it appears that too many Patriots fans are hanging their hat on what Walsh did and with whos knowledge and permission.

If Walsh is found to be a lying, attention seeking nut case, the only thing that it proves is that Walsh is a lying, attention seeking nut case. It does not prove that the Patriots are not guilty of any further rules violations or wrongdoing. Just that Walsh (potentially) didn't do it.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

cliff notes version of this 13 pager?TIA

Its basically shaken out to regional/fan alliegiance lines. Most folks outside NE and the fanbase have taken NE to task based on previous evidence in light of the current rumors(can't even fully call them allegations yet). Most folks are on the outside, saying IF these rumors come to pass, NE's "dynasty" is invalidated, Belichek can and should expect a long vacation, anywhere from a year up to a life. NE regional folk and fans have defended the practices rumored with a combination argument of "everyone does it" and whatever anyone was doing "didn't help anyway" and oh yeah, Jimmy Johnson made vague reference to videotaping, so NE gets to be a dynasty if Dallas still is, etc. Page 11 or 12, it runs out of steam as information slows down. Its been contortions reminscent of Neo in the Matrix watching NE duck and dodge the various logic bullets fired their way, but the bottom line is, I think most fans on either side of the aisle concede that what they've been found guilty of and whatever allegations exist are one thing and that the actual hard evidence of a tape of the St. Lou Walk Through would be something entirely different. There are a few pats fans in the cave on that one, but from what I recall, most are objective enough to realize the seriousness of that. Until we have a tape, most folks have said their peace and its a dead story.

 

[Reaper]

cliff notes version of this 13 pager?

TIA

Its basically shaken out to regional/fan alliegiance lines. Most folks outside NE and the fanbase have taken NE to task based on previous evidence in light of the current rumors(can't even fully call them allegations yet). Most folks are on the outside, saying IF these rumors come to pass, NE's "dynasty" is invalidated, Belichek can and should expect a long vacation, anywhere from a year up to a life.

NE regional folk and fans have defended the practices rumored with a combination argument of "everyone does it" and whatever anyone was doing "didn't help anyway" and oh yeah, Jimmy Johnson made vague reference to videotaping, so NE gets to be a dynasty if Dallas still is, etc. Page 11 or 12, it runs out of steam as information slows down.

Its been contortions reminscent of Neo in the Matrix watching NE duck and dodge the various logic bullets fired their way, but the bottom line is, I think most fans on either side of the aisle concede that what they've been found guilty of and whatever allegations exist are one thing and that the actual hard evidence of a tape of the St. Lou Walk Through would be something entirely different. There are a few pats fans in the cave on that one, but from what I recall, most are objective enough to realize the seriousness of that. Until we have a tape, most folks have said their peace and its a dead story.

PETER KING Wraps it up pretty good...

I've said this from the beginning: If an edge was gained in any of the three three-point New England Super Bowl wins, that puts this story on a different level. That's why we must chase every lead to discover if any evidence exists that any of those Super Bowls were compromised. And I don't care what any pooh-poohing coach will say. In my opinion, if a team tapes a walkthrough the day before a Super Bowl, and knows which plays the opposition runs at that walkthrough, it's an advantage. Potentially a big advantage.

I love how the selective articles are posted as if it's a victory in this thread.... Then others ignored from the same source......

Anyway.. it's NFL discussion that is going on all over, is a lead story on ESPN and something to be talked about - to me that's the point more than all the "Haters" and "Venom" and all that BS that gets thrown around here.... If anything I think the Pats fans that dedicate a slice of their life every single day to trying to Battle a story all along before the information was out, makes the story last more than anything else...

Most of us are in wait and see mode - Meanwhile if nothing comes of it, Certain fans are going to want to do a victory lap as if they won the Super Bowl....

Wait and see.... People have to realize there's also a certain percentage of posters here in it only for the game of poking fun (which is commonplace at FBG and all over the net).... Nothing is gained by battling this every day.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

cliff notes version of this 13 pager?

TIA

Its basically shaken out to regional/fan alliegiance lines. Most folks outside NE and the fanbase have taken NE to task based on previous evidence in light of the current rumors(can't even fully call them allegations yet). Most folks are on the outside, saying IF these rumors come to pass, NE's "dynasty" is invalidated, Belichek can and should expect a long vacation, anywhere from a year up to a life.

NE regional folk and fans have defended the practices rumored with a combination argument of "everyone does it" and whatever anyone was doing "didn't help anyway" and oh yeah, Jimmy Johnson made vague reference to videotaping, so NE gets to be a dynasty if Dallas still is, etc. Page 11 or 12, it runs out of steam as information slows down.

Its been contortions reminscent of Neo in the Matrix watching NE duck and dodge the various logic bullets fired their way, but the bottom line is, I think most fans on either side of the aisle concede that what they've been found guilty of and whatever allegations exist are one thing and that the actual hard evidence of a tape of the St. Lou Walk Through would be something entirely different. There are a few pats fans in the cave on that one, but from what I recall, most are objective enough to realize the seriousness of that. Until we have a tape, most folks have said their peace and its a dead story.

A couple comments:1. I intend to abide by Clayton Gray's pinned message about developing thicker skin. Having said that,

2. There was nothing vague about Jimmy Johnson's admission of videotaping and statements that such activity was rampant around the NFL.

3. Walsh will need coroboration of his version of where a Rams walkthrough tape came from (more than the existence of a tape is needed).

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Hate to chime in on such a contentious and polarizing discussion, but it appears that too many Patriots fans are hanging their hat on what Walsh did and with whos knowledge and permission.

If Walsh is found to be a lying, attention seeking nut case, the only thing that it proves is that Walsh is a lying, attention seeking nut case. It does not prove that the Patriots are not guilty of any further rules violations or wrongdoing. Just that Walsh (potentially) didn't do it.

With apologies for being redundant, this concept of there needing to be proof of lack of guilt is one of the tenants of the bashing position which incites Patriots fans to respond.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Hate to chime in on such a contentious and polarizing discussion, but it appears that too many Patriots fans are hanging their hat on what Walsh did and with whos knowledge and permission.

If Walsh is found to be a lying, attention seeking nut case, the only thing that it proves is that Walsh is a lying, attention seeking nut case. It does not prove that the Patriots are not guilty of any further rules violations or wrongdoing. Just that Walsh (potentially) didn't do it.

With apologies for being redundant, this concept of there needing to be proof of lack of guilt is one of the tenants of the bashing position which incites Patriots fans to respond.

You are prolific if nothing else.

 

[remote controller]

With apologies to all the Patriot apologists in this thread, one thing remains crystal clear. The success of this club under BB, and the controversy surrounding the cheating, not alleged cheating, but actual cheating, cannot be separated. The success will never be brought up without the "BUT", and that is the sad truth, thanks to BB's extreme arrogance every step of the way.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Hate to chime in on such a contentious and polarizing discussion, but it appears that too many Patriots fans are hanging their hat on what Walsh did and with whos knowledge and permission.

If Walsh is found to be a lying, attention seeking nut case, the only thing that it proves is that Walsh is a lying, attention seeking nut case. It does not prove that the Patriots are not guilty of any further rules violations or wrongdoing. Just that Walsh (potentially) didn't do it.

With apologies for being redundant, this concept of there needing to be proof of lack of guilt is one of the tenants of the bashing position which incites Patriots fans to respond.

You are prolific if nothing else.

Too true; although in my defense its for a topic I have strong opinions on, as opposed to post-padding.

 

[twitch]

With apologies to all the Patriot apologists in this thread, one thing remains crystal clear. The success of this club under BB, and the controversy surrounding the cheating, not alleged cheating, but actual cheating, cannot be separated. The success will never be brought up without the "BUT", and that is the sad truth, thanks to BB's extreme arrogance every step of the way.

I think all of us have accepted this on some level or another. And I think we pretty much accepted it back in SEPTEMBER when it actually happened. But then, you see, New England went out and won 18 straight games. They won 18 straight without this actual cheating. I dont really care to call it crystal clear, because many people will still choose to disagree. But you would tend to think if anything, winning 18 straight would atleast transform the "BUT" into merely a "but". And for the most part, we dont really worry about "sad truth"s. Those are opinions everyone is entitled to. Many people today still mention steroids as the "but" when they talk about the 70s Steelers. Doesnt seem to bother them, or harm that team's legacy. Yet, its certainly a "but". And not a "BUT", but just a "but". And for the record, I dont have a problem with BB's arrogance. Every great competitor on any level in sports or out of sports maintains some level of arrogance. And Im not going to classify what BB did as vastly more arrogant. Because basically, those actions simply are not worthy. But certainly no more than Tiger Woods, or Muhammad Ali, or Jerry Jones or George Steinbrenner. In fact, to those men, arrogance is something they probably dont even consider. Its just who they are. But I do agree with you though RC on your original point about the "but". I think its here to stay over the long haul win, lose or draw. Just looking forward to the day when history will take off the caps lock button while measuring it.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Many people today still mention steroids as the "but" when they talk about the 70s Steelers. Doesnt seem to bother them, or harm that team's legacy.

Only in Patriot land. We dont even hear that crap from anyone. Including our division rivals - unless its a week were we are beatin' the Bengals, and then they will say anything at all.

 

[Filthy]

A couple comments:

1. I intend to abide by Clayton Gray's pinned message about developing thicker skin. Having said that,

2. There was nothing vague about Jimmy Johnson's admission of videotaping and statements that such activity was rampant around the NFL.

3. Walsh will need coroboration of his version of where a Rams walkthrough tape came from (more than the existence of a tape is needed).

You sir, will continue to increase the requirement of guilt as this story unfolds. It's not enough for testimony to exist, but a tape. Then the source says he has a tape (via his attorney), now the requirement is that then proof has to be produced that the Pats/BB directed him to make it. What's next should he produce a signed memo from them? Proof that they used it? Amazing.

 

[Road Warriors]

Many people today still mention steroids as the "but" when they talk about the 70s Steelers. Doesnt seem to bother them, or harm that team's legacy.

Only in Patriot land. We dont even hear that crap from anyone. Including our division rivals - unless its a week were we are beatin' the Bengals, and then they will say anything at all.

I think the point is that in 30 years, we will have a similar situation with the memories of the Patriots of the '00s. We're right in the middle of it now, but memories will fade, and the recollection of this time and scandal will mute much of the criticism that is very loud now. Imagine, if you will, that during the Steeler's championship run, that you had large communities of online football fanatics gathered expressing their opinions. Do you really think that non-Steelers fans would have been brushing the steriod usage aside, or do you think they'd be piling on, just as many are doing with the Pats now. Given the dynamics I see on this board, I'd bet the latter. I'll let history judge the severity of the current scandal. If nothing more comes to light, and the Matt Walsh saga peters out with nothing proven, IMO, it'll fade with time, as most scandals do. But I could be wrong... who knows.

 

[AB in DC]

I think all of us have accepted this on some level or another. And I think we pretty much accepted it back in SEPTEMBER when it actually happened. But then, you see, New England went out and won 18 straight games. They won 18 straight without this actual cheating. I dont really care to call it crystal clear, because many people will still choose to disagree. But you would tend to think if anything, winning 18 straight would atleast transform the "BUT" into merely a "but".

Except that people continue to insist -- despite all logic -- that none of the other 31 teams changed their signals to protect themselves from the Pats' "cheating", even after the Jets tape seizure was made public.

 

[remote controller]

With apologies to all the Patriot apologists in this thread, one thing remains crystal clear. The success of this club under BB, and the controversy surrounding the cheating, not alleged cheating, but actual cheating, cannot be separated. The success will never be brought up without the "BUT", and that is the sad truth, thanks to BB's extreme arrogance every step of the way.

I think all of us have accepted this on some level or another. And I think we pretty much accepted it back in SEPTEMBER when it actually happened. But then, you see, New England went out and won 18 straight games. They won 18 straight without this actual cheating. I dont really care to call it crystal clear, because many people will still choose to disagree. But you would tend to think if anything, winning 18 straight would atleast transform the "BUT" into merely a "but". And for the most part, we dont really worry about "sad truth"s. Those are opinions everyone is entitled to. Many people today still mention steroids as the "but" when they talk about the 70s Steelers. Doesnt seem to bother them, or harm that team's legacy. Yet, its certainly a "but". And not a "BUT", but just a "but". And for the record, I dont have a problem with BB's arrogance. Every great competitor on any level in sports or out of sports maintains some level of arrogance. And Im not going to classify what BB did as vastly more arrogant. Because basically, those actions simply are not worthy. But certainly no more than Tiger Woods, or Muhammad Ali, or Jerry Jones or George Steinbrenner. In fact, to those men, arrogance is something they probably dont even consider. Its just who they are. But I do agree with you though RC on your original point about the "but". I think its here to stay over the long haul win, lose or draw. Just looking forward to the day when history will take off the caps lock button while measuring it.

Excellant response! Thanks for taking the time to lay it out like that.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

cliff notes version of this 13 pager?

TIA

Its basically shaken out to regional/fan alliegiance lines. Most folks outside NE and the fanbase have taken NE to task based on previous evidence in light of the current rumors(can't even fully call them allegations yet). Most folks are on the outside, saying IF these rumors come to pass, NE's "dynasty" is invalidated, Belichek can and should expect a long vacation, anywhere from a year up to a life.

NE regional folk and fans have defended the practices rumored with a combination argument of "everyone does it" and whatever anyone was doing "didn't help anyway" and oh yeah, Jimmy Johnson made vague reference to videotaping, so NE gets to be a dynasty if Dallas still is, etc. Page 11 or 12, it runs out of steam as information slows down.

Its been contortions reminscent of Neo in the Matrix watching NE duck and dodge the various logic bullets fired their way, but the bottom line is, I think most fans on either side of the aisle concede that what they've been found guilty of and whatever allegations exist are one thing and that the actual hard evidence of a tape of the St. Lou Walk Through would be something entirely different. There are a few pats fans in the cave on that one, but from what I recall, most are objective enough to realize the seriousness of that. Until we have a tape, most folks have said their peace and its a dead story.

A couple comments:1. I intend to abide by Clayton Gray's pinned message about developing thicker skin. Having said that,

2. There was nothing vague about Jimmy Johnson's admission of videotaping and statements that such activity was rampant around the NFL.

3. Walsh will need coroboration of his version of where a Rams walkthrough tape came from (more than the existence of a tape is needed).

On point 2, what exactly did JJ say? I tried youtubing and googling it, I can't find anything. On point three, more than existence will be needed for you, but if Walsh has that tape, Johnnie Cochran's ghost couldn't get Belichek out of that one. I'm sure the NFL and the nearly complete majority of fans would agree.

 

[David Yudkin]

So to summarize . . .

The whole Pats situation has been described as:

The equivalent of jaywalking and barely worthy of a ticket (Pats fans)

The equivalent of triple homicide with a life sentence given to BB and 3 SB titles should be stripped (Pats haters)

Somehow there appears to be no middle ground. Either they were the greatest cheaters ever or they did nothing wrong with nothing in between.

Interestingly enough, I think this whole situation is getting way more play by hardcore footbal fans on message boards than any place else.

I had someone try to convince me the other day that Spygate is on par with the Michael Vick story. I just don't see the masses swarming like they did over Vick. I also don't see the Pats on the front pages of major publications and web sites (even those not related to sports) day in and day out.

And I wonder for those saying that 20 years from now this will still be getting discussed and an indeliable black mark left on NE, I'm not so sure that that will be the case. people move on to other things fairly quickly and there will be other inane stuff to debate by then.

IMO, only a small percentage of the public is truly, truly "outraged" by the Pats situation and I think it is getting more hype than anything else.

I personally don't think that much will change, and I really don't think that the league would ever strip any team of a championship.

For those in the "triple murder" category, realistically what do you see as an outcome to all this?

 

[Stillers Jr.]

For those in the "triple murder" category, realistically what do you see as an outcome to all this?

Death Penalty?

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

So to summarize . . .

The whole Pats situation has been described as:

The equivalent of jaywalking and barely worthy of a ticket (Pats fans)

The equivalent of triple homicide with a life sentence given to BB and 3 SB titles should be stripped (Pats haters)

Somehow there appears to be no middle ground. Either they were the greatest cheaters ever or they did nothing wrong with nothing in between.

Interestingly enough, I think this whole situation is getting way more play by hardcore footbal fans on message boards than any place else.

I had someone try to convince me the other day that Spygate is on par with the Michael Vick story. I just don't see the masses swarming like they did over Vick. I also don't see the Pats on the front pages of major publications and web sites (even those not related to sports) day in and day out.

And I wonder for those saying that 20 years from now this will still be getting discussed and an indeliable black mark left on NE, I'm not so sure that that will be the case. people move on to other things fairly quickly and there will be other inane stuff to debate by then.

IMO, only a small percentage of the public is truly, truly "outraged" by the Pats situation and I think it is getting more hype than anything else.

I personally don't think that much will change, and I really don't think that the league would ever strip any team of a championship.

For those in the "triple murder" category, realistically what do you see as an outcome to all this?

I'll go on the single murder tip for this one. A triple murder would be a player or offical bribe to take a dive. However, logically extending this, whatever the motivation and whatever the outcome, a sports league being called onto the Congressional carpet because of cheating is a major deal. IF this tape exists, THAT would happen, IMO. That is a major deal, no two ways about it. Want to call it manslaughter or something lesser, any way you cut it, thats big.

We're still in the vagaries here. Walsh may be full of it, or he may not have the tape, or he may not get whatever clearances he needs to show the tape. However, where it stands, the Pats and League have both said we've seen all there is to see. The NFL has agreed to waive any sanction against Walsh to show the supposed tape, whereas the New England Patriots have not. One would think if there was nothing to hide, they'd want to public waive their sanctions against Walsh as well to really clear this air. Put the pressure on him to put up or shut up. There may be no tape and Walsh may be full of it, but its farfetched to think he would record a rogue tape, get fired 2 years later, wait 3 years after that for the Pats scandal to break and then come out after the fact with this tape. So the fact that they don't release him from his non-disclosure in regard to this, tells me they may think there's something to it.

Your final point, the outcome? I would like to see Belichek swing, with a minimum's year ban from the NFL, and if not longer, a defacto trip to the blacklist of the league. Keep your trophies, keep the titles, but Belichek goes.

 

[David Yudkin]

I only called it "triple homicide" based on the fact the Pats won three SBs.

 

[massraider]

I don't care if Walsh padded his resume. I don't care what he lied about.

If this knucklehead produces videotapes of other teams' practices, I don't really care if he exaggerated his involvement with the US Bobsled team. I don't care if he was on the golf team in college. I don't care if he lies to his momma.

If he has practice tapes, we don't need him to be an honest guy. At that point, the only defense would be that Walsh was taping this stuff on his own, without the consent or knowledge of the team that was employing him. And that defense is a joke.

If he has no tapes, then this is nothing, and Arlen Specter should apologize for his grandstanding.

 

[Workhorse]

I don't care if Walsh padded his resume. I don't care what he lied about.If this knucklehead produces videotapes of other teams' practices, I don't really care if he exaggerated his involvement with the US Bobsled team. I don't care if he was on the golf team in college. I don't care if he lies to his momma.If he has practice tapes, we don't need him to be an honest guy. At that point, the only defense would be that Walsh was taping this stuff on his own, without the consent or knowledge of the team that was employing him. And that defense is a joke.If he has no tapes, then this is nothing, and Arlen Specter should apologize for his grandstanding.

Agreed 100%. That's why I think this whole indemnity thing is a smokescreen. If Walsh produces the tapes, seems to me that he'd have the full protection of the NFL under the guarantees they've already made. I don't think he has anything, and most reporters who have started digging around the Patriots have come to the same conclusion. For example, Jason Coles of Yahoo sports was just on Boston Radio confirming that the Patriots and the NFL seem certain that there are no tapes, based on Goodell extensively interviewing present and past Patriots staff.

 

[mozzy84]

So to summarize . . .

The whole Pats situation has been described as:

The equivalent of jaywalking and barely worthy of a ticket (Pats fans)

The equivalent of triple homicide with a life sentence given to BB and 3 SB titles should be stripped (Pats haters)

Somehow there appears to be no middle ground. Either they were the greatest cheaters ever or they did nothing wrong with nothing in between.

Interestingly enough, I think this whole situation is getting way more play by hardcore footbal fans on message boards than any place else.

I had someone try to convince me the other day that Spygate is on par with the Michael Vick story. I just don't see the masses swarming like they did over Vick. I also don't see the Pats on the front pages of major publications and web sites (even those not related to sports) day in and day out.

And I wonder for those saying that 20 years from now this will still be getting discussed and an indeliable black mark left on NE, I'm not so sure that that will be the case. people move on to other things fairly quickly and there will be other inane stuff to debate by then.

IMO, only a small percentage of the public is truly, truly "outraged" by the Pats situation and I think it is getting more hype than anything else.

I personally don't think that much will change, and I really don't think that the league would ever strip any team of a championship.

For those in the "triple murder" category, realistically what do you see as an outcome to all this?

the average football fan doesn't even think twice about all of this at this point imo. I think its funny listening how worked up some people on here get about this, they want more to happen to the pats but its not going to happen imo.

 

[David Yudkin]

Gene Upshaw has strong feelings on videotaping. Gene Upshaw, the executive director of the NFL players association, shared his feelings on the Patriots' videotaping procedures following a meeting at the downtown Westin. His thought is that the impact of the videotaping has been overblown. "It's absolutely ludicrous to believe it affects a play," he said. "Look at the play in the Super Bowl, you can have all the film in the world but Eli [Manning] still gets out of the pocket, sheds those tackles, and throws that ball. Then go back to the Super Bowl against St. Louis, do you think filming had anything to do with Kurt Warner's fumble?"

LINK

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Posted 2 hrs ago on NFL.com...

Goodell hopes NFL is close to talking with former Pats assistant

Associated Press

INDIANAPOLIS -- NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell hopes the NFL is close to an agreement that will allow former New England Patriots employee Matt Walsh to tell the league about the tapes he is said to have made of the St. Louis Rams' walkthrough before the 2002 Super Bowl.

"The lawyers are still talking and we're anxious to speak to him. We're anxious to get an agreement to get him to come forth." Goodell told the Associated Press on Wednesday before the start of the NFL combine.

"We hope to be able to talk to him shortly."

Walsh, now a golf pro in Maui, did video work for the Patriots when they won the first of their three Super Bowls after the 2001 season. Three weeks ago, the Boston Herald reported that Walsh claimed he had taped the practice before the Patriots' 20-17 upset of the Rams, who were two-touchdown favorites.

NFL lawyers have been meeting with Michael Levy, Walsh's Washington-based lawyer, who is seeking further protection for his client if he tells what he knows.

Levy said last week that the NFL's offer of protection "is highly conditional and still leaves Mr. Walsh vulnerable. I have asked the NFL to provide Mr. Walsh with the necessary legal protections so that he can come forward with the truth without fear of retaliation and litigation."

Goodell has said that Walsh was not interviewed as part of the NFL's investigation into "Spygate," which involved the NFL confiscating tapes from a Patriots employee who recorded the New York Jets' defensive signals from the sideline during the opening game of the 2007 season.

As a result of that investigation, New England coach Bill Belichick was fined $500,000 and the team was fined $250,000 and forfeited its 2008 first-round draft choice.

Six confiscated tapes and other documents pertaining to the Patriots' taping were subsequently destroyed by the league. Goodell has defended the destruction of the tapes.

Last week, Willie Gary, who played seven games for the Rams that season, filed suit in New Orleans accusing the Patriots of fraud, unfair trade practices and engaging in a "pattern of racketeering." Three fans joined in the suit.

On Tuesday, Hugh Campbell, the Cincinnati lawyer who filed Gary's suit, said he wanted to add at least two new classes to the action: all employees and players of all NFL teams who were illegally videotaped by the Pats, plus all fans who bought tickets to any game that the Pats illegally taped. He also said he wanted to join with Sen. Arlen Specter, R.-Pa., who also is looking into the allegations.

Goodell and Specter met last week in Washington.

Specter told The Associated Press on Wednesday that if Walsh is under subpoena in a suit, it might solve the problem of protection.

"I think now that the lawsuits have been started, that I got the ball rolling, and the plaintiffs' lawyers are picking it up," Specter said.

Copyright 2008 by The Associated Press

Reactions...1. I want this guy to come forward.

2. Specter is a boob.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

Gene Upshaw has strong feelings on videotaping. Gene Upshaw, the executive director of the NFL players association, shared his feelings on the Patriots' videotaping procedures following a meeting at the downtown Westin. His thought is that the impact of the videotaping has been overblown. "It's absolutely ludicrous to believe it affects a play," he said. "Look at the play in the Super Bowl, you can have all the film in the world but Eli [Manning] still gets out of the pocket, sheds those tackles, and throws that ball. Then go back to the Super Bowl against St. Louis, do you think filming had anything to do with Kurt Warner's fumble?"

LINK

Since when did Upshaw's opinion mean anything? He's superdooper trustworthy.

 

[Bill]

the only way he could possibly have any tape would be if he did it without the pats knowledge. if they knew about it do you think after they watched it they'd say-oh you can keep the tape matt-we're done with it. maybe they told him he could take a couple of playbooks while he's at it.

c'mon

 

[Dman30]

the only way he could possibly have any tape would be if he did it without the pats knowledge. if they knew about it do you think after they watched it they'd say-oh you can keep the tape matt-we're done with it. maybe they told him he could take a couple of playbooks while he's at it.c'mon

Matt Walsh probably has copies of the originals. The originals were either destroyed by the Patriots themselves before they handed over their cheat materials to the league or they were destroyed by the league once the Patriots handed over their materials. And of course the Patriots will claim that Walsh acted on his own...that is a predictable defense.

 

[Kit Fisto]

That's why I think this whole indemnity thing is a smokescreen. If Walsh produces the tapes, seems to me that he'd have the full protection of the NFL under the guarantees they've already made. I don't think he has anything, and most reporters who have started digging around the Patriots have come to the same conclusion. For example, Jason Coles of Yahoo sports was just on Boston Radio confirming that the Patriots and the NFL seem certain that there are no tapes, based on Goodell extensively interviewing present and past Patriots staff.

I gotta agree with you here, bro.I think Walsh shot his mouth off to a reporter (which apparently he likes to do), and it just snowballed from there.He gets a lawyer. Lawyer says "Let's see the tapes". Walsh says "I don't have any tapes. Get me out of this before I get sued for slander."

 

[fred_1_15301]

the only way he could possibly have any tape would be if he did it without the pats knowledge. if they knew about it do you think after they watched it they'd say-oh you can keep the tape matt-we're done with it. maybe they told him he could take a couple of playbooks while he's at it.c'mon

It's not that hard to make a copy of a video in this day and age......

 

[yabahos]

Posted 2 hrs ago on NFL.com...

Specter told The Associated Press on Wednesday that if Walsh is under subpoena in a suit, it might solve the problem of protection.

"I think now that the lawsuits have been started, that I got the ball rolling, and the plaintiffs' lawyers are picking it up," Specter said.

Copyright 2008 by The Associated Press

Reactions...1. I want this guy to come forward.

2. Specter is a boob.

I love this quote. Nothing like a ton of negative publicity to get what Specter really wants out of this - exert some pressure on the NFL to get a better deal for Comcast. I wish I had a job where I was allowed to abuse my authority like this.

 

[SteelerMurf]

Who uses videotapes anymore anyway?

 

[PhD]

i tried to go back and read a lot of this post but its way to long so maybe this has already been posted.has anyone heard how walch's resume and his wedding invitations(that he has posted on his own blogging site) are full of lies about what his job was with the pats?? claims to have been a scout, etc.

I had not heard that. He was promoted to scouting from the video department, but resigned or was terminated due to lackluster scouting performance / interest and, allegedly, for illegal videotaping of a conversation between himself and Scott Pioli.

From PFTOther easily available information to scrutinize is Walsh's bio for his current job. In it, he says that he "served primarily as an Area Scout and Video Assistant from 1996-2003" with the Patriots. But Pioli told the Boston Globe that Walsh was never an Area Scout. So if the Pats and/or Pioli can prove this, it would be another strike against him.In fact, Walsh's overall bio requires the full-blown Fran Foley treatment. Based on the article regarding his then-looming nuptials, he was 28 in July 2004 and is a Gemini. Thus, he's presently 31. Unless he pulled a Doogie Howser (or a Forrest Gump), it's hard to cram everything he claims to have done into the period of time that would require him to get a college degree, play two years of pro hockey, train with the U.S. National Bobsled team, spend a year working for an Arena League team, seven with the Pats, one with NFL Europe, and then become an assistant golf pro in Hawaii.The article about his wedding describes his time with the Pats as including "operations, public relations, video/game planning, area scout." Game planning? Um. Okay.Other questions about Walsh should be asked. Such as, for example, how he found -- and how he can afford -- a Washington, D.C. lawyer who specializes in white-collar crime and government investigations. Could it be that Senator Specter hooked Walsh up with Michael Levy, and/or that Levy is handling the matter at no charge as a "favor" to the Senator?

Ouch. Bad news for Patriots haters.:thumbsup:

Or perhaps the favor is from the Senator to the lawyer -- after all, Specter has already met with Goodell. If there was little chance to win this case don't you think Specter would let it go and choose not to waste a favor?

 

[PhD]

Still wondering how people can say the (alleged) tapes of a (redzone?) walkthrough would not have given an advatage to the Pats, I did a quick search of the gamebook from that superbowl to get some insight. Is there something here that I'm missing? Did the Rams make it into the redzone all of ONE time in that game, resulting in a Ram TD?

The following are the last plays of each Ram drive:

1stQ:

**4-7-NE 40 (12:21) J.Baker punts 37 yards to NE 3,

**4-3-NE 32 (3:15) J.Wilkins 50 yard field goal is GOOD,

2nd Q:

**4-5-NE 34 (13:17) J.Wilkins 52 yard field goal is No Good, Wide Left,

**1-10-SL 39 (8:58) K.Warner pass intended for I.Bruce INTERCEPTED by T.Law at SL 47.

**4-1-NE 50 (6:15) J.Baker punts 35 yards to NE 15.

** 1-10-SL 25 (1:33) K.Warner pass to R.Proehl to SL 40 for 15 yards (A.Harris). FUMBLES (A.Harris)

3rdQ:

**4-22-SL 47 (9:42) J.Baker punts 38 yards to NE 15,

**3-5-NE 45 (3:35) K.Warner pass intended for T.Holt INTERCEPTED by O.Smith at NE 37.

4thQ:

**2-2-NE 2 (9:33) K.Warner up the middle for 2 yards, TOUCHDOWN.**4-20-NE 49 (4:01) J.Baker punts 49 yards to end zone

**1-10-NE 26 (1:37) K.Warner pass to R.Proehl for 26 yards, TOUCHDOWN

Now for all you Patriot fans that get all giddy reliving the old glory days, I should point out two obvious reminders:

(1) as you know - the game had a remarkably similar feel to XLII, with the roles reversed

(2) Belicheck is winless in superbowls without Vinatieri

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Still wondering how people can say the (alleged) tapes of a (redzone?) walkthrough would not have given an advatage to the Pats, I did a quick search of the gamebook from that superbowl to get some insight. Is there something here that I'm missing? Did the Rams make it into the redzone all of ONE time in that game, resulting in a Ram TD?

The following are the last plays of each Ram drive:

1stQ:

**4-7-NE 40 (12:21) J.Baker punts 37 yards to NE 3,

**4-3-NE 32 (3:15) J.Wilkins 50 yard field goal is GOOD,

2nd Q:

**4-5-NE 34 (13:17) J.Wilkins 52 yard field goal is No Good, Wide Left,

**1-10-SL 39 (8:58) K.Warner pass intended for I.Bruce INTERCEPTED by T.Law at SL 47.

**4-1-NE 50 (6:15) J.Baker punts 35 yards to NE 15.

** 1-10-SL 25 (1:33) K.Warner pass to R.Proehl to SL 40 for 15 yards (A.Harris). FUMBLES (A.Harris)

3rdQ:

**4-22-SL 47 (9:42) J.Baker punts 38 yards to NE 15,

**3-5-NE 45 (3:35) K.Warner pass intended for T.Holt INTERCEPTED by O.Smith at NE 37.

4thQ:

**2-2-NE 2 (9:33) K.Warner up the middle for 2 yards, TOUCHDOWN.**4-20-NE 49 (4:01) J.Baker punts 49 yards to end zone

**1-10-NE 26 (1:37) K.Warner pass to R.Proehl for 26 yards, TOUCHDOWN

Now for all you Patriot fans that get all giddy reliving the old glory days, I should point out two obvious reminders:

(1) as you know - the game had a remarkably similar feel to XLII, with the roles reversed

(2) Belicheck is winless in superbowls without Vinatieri

Technically, Head Coach Belichick is winless in superbowls without Vinatieri. He's got 2 rings without Vinatieri from his Giants days.

 

[S.K.A.]

Drudge has a headline about new cheating allegations coming to light.