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Get Your Butt Back To The Office (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter BassNBrew
- Start date
Phil Elliott
Footballguy
Absolutely saved lots of cash, that's why they did it. Many of those offices were in Wework facilities so less cash for them also.Probably saved a boatload of cash in doing so.Our company went from regional leased space in traditional towers in downtowns to Wework offices in the suburbs pre-Covid. Obviously went to work from home during Covid. After Covid, went 95% work from home except for offices in 3 large cities. Talking a couple hundred offices.This is what our regional office did. Cut lease cost in half, moved downtown, and had perks to attract and retain younger crowd.Directly related to people working from home more often?Wework, once valued over $45b files for chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.
WeWork, once valued at $47 billion, files for bankruptcy
Office-sharing company WeWork filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in federal court Monday.www.cnbc.com
Not sure what that has to do with anything.
I would think that with more people working from home and more companies carrying less office space cost on overhead, that places like WeWork would thrive with companies needing the occasional collaboration space.
All our interviews for even hybrid roles have been via Teams
snogger
Footballguy
Our company is going "hard core" with RTO starting in January. If you are within 25 miles "as the bird flies", then you must be in the office Tuesday through Thursday. Not just 3 days a week, but those exact days.
I know of 25 people who have already left, put in their notice to leave, or decided to retire.
I've also been told from other departments of many more looking to leave. One person told me a Manager has already left and is working with the 20+ people who worked for them to come with them.
The biggest issue is a hard line of very few exceptions. Had one guy mention he takes care of his cerebral palsy son and can't afford home care and can't leave him alone.
The HR answer was, we'll discuss this.. DISCUSS this????? That answer is what sent people over the top.
I have a co-worker who is in the 25 mile radius, but lives on the other side of a mountain. So driving distance is 45 miles.. His drive during winter could easily be an hour and half each way..
And upper management has the gull to say this will increase productivity
I know of 25 people who have already left, put in their notice to leave, or decided to retire.
I've also been told from other departments of many more looking to leave. One person told me a Manager has already left and is working with the 20+ people who worked for them to come with them.
The biggest issue is a hard line of very few exceptions. Had one guy mention he takes care of his cerebral palsy son and can't afford home care and can't leave him alone.
The HR answer was, we'll discuss this.. DISCUSS this????? That answer is what sent people over the top.
I have a co-worker who is in the 25 mile radius, but lives on the other side of a mountain. So driving distance is 45 miles.. His drive during winter could easily be an hour and half each way..
And upper management has the gull to say this will increase productivity
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Probably more in the 10-12 hour range for a given 40 hour week now. Still just tracking swipes in a given location, so it is pretty low on the things to care about. I still hate not have an actual desk to go to, but I just kind of vagrant around semi-abandoned buildings.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Employers have regained a bit of power and are feeling themselves a bit right now.
Completely unfair way to do this. People don't travel to work "as the bird flies".
If they do have to get people back to work, it should be something like "people within a 30 minute drive given average driving conditions"
Judge Smails
Footballguy
I hate hate hate having to go to the office if there is any kind of commute. Left a job last year when the CEO changed his deal with me around working remote. It's just soul sucking to spend 2-3 hours a day on a freeway. Will never do it again in my career.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
Yup. For a number of them this is also the first round of layoffs without having to pay unemployment or severance packages.
except it's not discriminating on talent of employee, have seen this line before but doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
![[icon]](/data/avatars/m/5/5167.jpg?1660313464){kind=avatar}
[icon]
Insoxicated
Still full remote. Not going back.
Out office has moved to Hybrid (3 days in) but I'm refusing and my director is supporting it for all her team.
Actually shopping for homes outside Memphis now (Chattanooga, Knoxville, and west coastal Florida south of Tampa). This will "formalize" me in the system as "Remote" as I will be outside the range of the home office.
My director herself just went full remote after moving to coastal Florida.
Out office has moved to Hybrid (3 days in) but I'm refusing and my director is supporting it for all her team.
Actually shopping for homes outside Memphis now (Chattanooga, Knoxville, and west coastal Florida south of Tampa). This will "formalize" me in the system as "Remote" as I will be outside the range of the home office.
My director herself just went full remote after moving to coastal Florida.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
I don't think those particular companies care or they wouldn't be demanding a hard line attendance policy.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Seems relevant: https://www.businessinsider.com/ret...yees-managers-fight-messy-remote-work-2023-11
I wonder how much of the return to the office push is coming from Vanguard, State Street, and BlackRock? Specifically, these three own the bulk of most publicly traded companies and the impending commercial real estate collapse from remote work has to be worrying them. Are they pushing this behind the scenes?
I wonder how much of the return to the office push is coming from Vanguard, State Street, and BlackRock? Specifically, these three own the bulk of most publicly traded companies and the impending commercial real estate collapse from remote work has to be worrying them. Are they pushing this behind the scenes?
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
Our IT company is hiring a lot of SR Devs for remote work who were not keen on going back into the office at their old jobs.
Scoresman
Footballguy
I cant believe we as a society put up with commutes as bad as they got. I mean it's potentially 8-10 hours or more of your week wasted sitting in a car not getting paid for it. I'm guilty of doing this, having had some really bad commutes over my career. And they still expect you to show up early and stay late. Never again for me.
HomerSimpson
Footballguy
I used to drive 45 minutes each way to work, i hated it, so when i bought my house 5 years ago my NUMBER ONE priority was as close to work as possible. My commute is now 12 minutes on back roads. Some guys i work with drive an Hour + daily each way, I couldn't do it.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
Some organizations such as the one I work for have so much GD money that they have to spend it or lose it so leases will never go away for us.
Nugget
Footballguy
I’m not in the same time zone as the rest of my group. Right now most go in for a monthly team lunch and some go in 2-4x month for meetings and presentations. I don’t see myself attending something in person until my son graduates from high school in 2026.
They claim its company culture and collaboration but I truly believe its politicians pushing for this as government is losing money with less people in the office. Some building HQs even get tax breaks but require a certain # of EEs to be in the office to get those tax breaks.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I'll share what some of you don't want to hear or must have jobs that are outside of what I'm going to share.
-Mrs and I went back to Univ of Miami after a 6-7 year stint at a smaller non-profit in Palm Beach. Even thru the pandemic, the Palm Beach spot, they were in the office a lot and the President was very involved with staff, didn't allow for more than a 3-2 ratio of in office and at home, always wanting to get folks back fully in the office and felt strongly that production suffered. I'm talking after the vaccines.
-FF to the new/old spot and the first thing we encountered were staff that we'll say are below the 6 figure level-Admin Asst in one form or another, lot of fancy titles these days that mean the same thing...but they were always sick and stayed home often. There were very few folks who regularly showed up and the work/production was bad, my wife and I gave them every opp to show their true colors. Emails not answered for 24-48+ hours on some of the most simplest of tasks, unacceptable. Don't answer their phones when they are called as they work out of their home, unacceptable. Anything that differs from what unfolds in the office is unacceptable. Mrs and I work 3 days a week out of the home office and I can promise you that we don't stop from about sun up to sun down in the evening. All calls and emails are handled promptly
-We have had to move some folks on their way, luckily the ones we had the most issues with decided to voluntarily quit! It doesn't get much easier than watching someone with a terrible work ethic and attitude quit...you don't even have to offer unemployment or deal with any potential HR issues, it's great.
-Our experience has been most folks who stayed home thru the pandemic and never returned to full time back in the office, they cause disruptions when they are being forced back into the office, they tend to be terrible workers in terms of production.
-It sounds arrogant to read posts of people that want to just up and quit because they are required to work in the office. I doubt many of you actually work harder at home or get more done to whoever owns or runs your company as the CEO. To me it's like the FBGs who proclaim great things charging up $5,000-$10,000 a month on high interest credit cards because they pay it all off and get free limos and Gulfstreams to take them around everywhere so they can pick up free groceries but the reality is a lot of this country is in debt and credit cards should not be in the hands of most average Americans.
If you could trust humans then you wouldn't need police, that's the truth. Not everyone follows the law or follows the rules without some consequences in place to deter them.
People need to be held accountable, that's a lot harder to measure when they are just sitting at home on Zoom calls and not even showing their face, just a background so they can sit in their jammies all day.
Humans tend to do the wrong thing when they have access/a choice in making bad decisions and if you think every person working at home is more productive then they would be under the thumb of their boss at a traditional office or cubical then I think you are fooling yourselves.
If you have a cushy WFH and feel like you've made it in this world and can do 8 hours of work in the actual 1-2 hours you now sit at a desk or couch at home, be my guest.
But to act as though production is better with everyone working from home is a bunch of nonsense
Anyone who is actually witnessing it first hand and has to manage/lead teams can see it.
And if you must know, the University seems to be pushing people back into their home office, they are sizing down work spaces for each department and team, where we might go 2 days a week down to Miami, they want us maybe 1 day every other week for the bigger meetings.
So in the end I'm telling you it's more productive working in an office with good leadership vs working from a home office and yet...
We're going to be working from home even more than we already are now, SMH
-Mrs and I went back to Univ of Miami after a 6-7 year stint at a smaller non-profit in Palm Beach. Even thru the pandemic, the Palm Beach spot, they were in the office a lot and the President was very involved with staff, didn't allow for more than a 3-2 ratio of in office and at home, always wanting to get folks back fully in the office and felt strongly that production suffered. I'm talking after the vaccines.
-FF to the new/old spot and the first thing we encountered were staff that we'll say are below the 6 figure level-Admin Asst in one form or another, lot of fancy titles these days that mean the same thing...but they were always sick and stayed home often. There were very few folks who regularly showed up and the work/production was bad, my wife and I gave them every opp to show their true colors. Emails not answered for 24-48+ hours on some of the most simplest of tasks, unacceptable. Don't answer their phones when they are called as they work out of their home, unacceptable. Anything that differs from what unfolds in the office is unacceptable. Mrs and I work 3 days a week out of the home office and I can promise you that we don't stop from about sun up to sun down in the evening. All calls and emails are handled promptly
-We have had to move some folks on their way, luckily the ones we had the most issues with decided to voluntarily quit! It doesn't get much easier than watching someone with a terrible work ethic and attitude quit...you don't even have to offer unemployment or deal with any potential HR issues, it's great.
-Our experience has been most folks who stayed home thru the pandemic and never returned to full time back in the office, they cause disruptions when they are being forced back into the office, they tend to be terrible workers in terms of production.
-It sounds arrogant to read posts of people that want to just up and quit because they are required to work in the office. I doubt many of you actually work harder at home or get more done to whoever owns or runs your company as the CEO. To me it's like the FBGs who proclaim great things charging up $5,000-$10,000 a month on high interest credit cards because they pay it all off and get free limos and Gulfstreams to take them around everywhere so they can pick up free groceries but the reality is a lot of this country is in debt and credit cards should not be in the hands of most average Americans.
If you could trust humans then you wouldn't need police, that's the truth. Not everyone follows the law or follows the rules without some consequences in place to deter them.
People need to be held accountable, that's a lot harder to measure when they are just sitting at home on Zoom calls and not even showing their face, just a background so they can sit in their jammies all day.
Humans tend to do the wrong thing when they have access/a choice in making bad decisions and if you think every person working at home is more productive then they would be under the thumb of their boss at a traditional office or cubical then I think you are fooling yourselves.
If you have a cushy WFH and feel like you've made it in this world and can do 8 hours of work in the actual 1-2 hours you now sit at a desk or couch at home, be my guest.
But to act as though production is better with everyone working from home is a bunch of nonsense
Anyone who is actually witnessing it first hand and has to manage/lead teams can see it.
And if you must know, the University seems to be pushing people back into their home office, they are sizing down work spaces for each department and team, where we might go 2 days a week down to Miami, they want us maybe 1 day every other week for the bigger meetings.
So in the end I'm telling you it's more productive working in an office with good leadership vs working from a home office and yet...
We're going to be working from home even more than we already are now, SMH
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I'll just say I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about as it pertains to many of us.
belljr
Footballguy
I'm such a bad employee they keep giving me raises and want me to lead teams
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Evryone is crying about going back to the office
- I have a feeling it's gonna hit home for some
So nobody works for the government one way or the other? Nobody works for a "Non Profit" in here? Horse manure IMHO
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Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
And that's not stealing from the company?
@AAABatteries I rest my case and it's nothing against Scores, he was being candid
Scoresman
Footballguy
I don't know if this is a troll or if you really feel like your beliefs on this apply to everyone? You are objectively and unequivocally wrong.
Scoresman
Footballguy
The fact of the matter is that we've now had over three years of WFH to root out the people who are not productive at home. If your company is not able to do this and can't tell if people are productive or not, that's a problem with upper management.'
Also, being in in a office by itself does not mean people will be productive. I'd bet a lot that people who are not productive at home probably weren't very productive at the office either.
Also, being in in a office by itself does not mean people will be productive. I'd bet a lot that people who are not productive at home probably weren't very productive at the office either.
belljr
Footballguy
The productive, self-motivators, good employees are going to be good employees in the office or at home and the bad crappy employees are going to be bad crappy employees in the office and at home. The crappy employees are probably standing out more working from home
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I don’t know about anyone else, but if I didn’t actually work while I was working from home, it wouldn’t go unnoticed. If I failed to review any documents sent to me for legal review or if I missed calls or meetings because I was goofing off it’s going to slow deals down and the business people aren’t just going to shrug their shoulders and say “oh well, this is just the downside to working from home”. They’re going to let their boss know and in turn my boss will know.
It seems odd to me to think that adults can only work if they’re in the same building as their boss. Do people have jobs where they actually don’t accomplish anything substantial enough so that others wouldn’t notice if they watched reruns of Seinfeld all day.
It seems odd to me to think that adults can only work if they’re in the same building as their boss. Do people have jobs where they actually don’t accomplish anything substantial enough so that others wouldn’t notice if they watched reruns of Seinfeld all day.
Scoresman
Footballguy
And if there are positions where people can get away with this, that's another issue with upper management. This is a position that clearly doesn't even need to exist. I mean what does it say about upper management if there are positions where people get away with making a good salary essentially doing nothing? What exactly are they managing?
belljr
Footballguy
Before team/zoom webcams etc I could 100% see office life being beneficial.....now that the infrastructure is there it's not needed every day. Do I need to go into the office to hear the 3 Karen's discussions on their kids school issues, or the people taking conference calls on speaker phone...NO!!!!!
This is wildly independent on the job of course. I would say realistically I need to be in office about 8 total weeks a year ....when we do live testing on our closed systems (about 2 weeks every 2-3 months or so. I'll gladly come in for that if I stay home the rest of the time
...... The kicker for me is when I go into the office I have to remote log in at my desk exactly like I remote from home smh lol
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I would like to ask, is there some sort of fear factor of potential sickness or something?
Are any of you wearing N-95 masks into the office?
I don't see it here in Florida but sometimes I see court cases unfolding in spots like Los Angeles as an example and people are wearing masks
What is the tug of war with having to go into the offices like most did prior to 2020/2021?
-I have no doubt that people "IN THEIR MINDS" think that more work gets done by folks just logging in at home, it's natural to want to believe that.
But it's objectively and unequivocally wrong as you say
And I only pulled your post (i know it's a joke) because I thought it was relevant to some of the things I wanted to share.
Yeah some of it's laid on a little thick Score, you know who I am.
Silence is complicit and I wanted to see what the temperature truly was in here, I'm starting to get a much better understanding of what is really driving this thread.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Gotta admit MoP - you got me.
Scoresman
Footballguy
It's simply not needed anymore in a lot of industries. I'll use mine as an example.
1. I no longer have to commute 1 hour in each direction. For me, that's a lot of extra time I get back, and for the company, some of it does go to them. I no longer have to leave the office by a certain time to get home to do whatever it is I need to do there. I end up logging in a bit earlier and logging off a bit later. Everyone wins.
2. Internet/video tech is now allowing us to meet without the need to reserve conference rooms or be in the same office/state/country. Logistics like this makes things move faster overall.
3. Time is not wasted with office BS like celebrating birthdays, impromptu meetings that could have been an email, leaving early for happy hours, talkative co-workers. I have a dog and two cats, do the laundry during the day, etc and these are still WAY fewer distractions than being in an office.
Again, things like this will be highly dependent on the industry. Of course there are many jobs that cant be done remotely. I would never make a claim that it's best for everyone to work from home. But it's just as ridiculous for you to make a blanket statement that it's best for everyone to be working in an office. That is just not true anymore.
Edited to add: And yes, I have had way less colds/flus since WFH so that's another benefit for everyone.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
You're right on much of this.
Yes, the same tools who stunk prior are much worse now, agreed.
We're talking non-profit University setting, people can get away with murder before they are ever shown the door
Just look at the college campuses right now, does it look like anyone is in charge at these places?
All good, I don't want to get into a war of words that's unnecessary, rather take pot shots and jokes at each other.
@eoMMan gets the first big zinger in. It got me laughing
massraider
Footballguy
No, I like your plan better where you $hit on anyone who wants to work from home, imply things about their work ethic, then take the high road.
Really, two
up, absolutely classic.
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
* slaps table * THANK YOU!
I work for an electric utility as an engineer and have been WFH since March 2020. Management saw ZERO loss in productivity from the arrangement and decided my fellow engineers and I could do either. I elected to stay home and will never go back to 0700-1530 office time.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
1. We take the Brightline from WPB to Miami, 80+ minutes each way, and I keep threatening to write an entire thread on the Brightline, I think some folks would find it fascinating and we've had a couple of MoP moments involving rude folks but that's for another time. All the travel time counts as being on the clock but those days are usually 12+ hours long, wake up at 5am
2. I disagree on Zoom calls and the like, think it would be much easier to have a 5 minute F2F meeting and get right to the point vs endless hours on these zoom calls. I prefer all my fundraising prospects meet me in person, I can cut thru a lot of the red tape faster when I'm in front of someone. But again, we're in different verticals and I have no doubt it works well for you Score.
3. Those things you speak of, cakes, happy hours and talkative co-workers, these are the same people when you let them stay home they tend to watch TV.
I worked in Sales for a long time before non profit-fundraising and I found most of them were lazy and if they weren't in an office with some supervision or leadership, numbers usually suffered.
Less colds and flus you threw in at the end, so there is some link to the pandemic and what you feel you learned going thru that experience, in some ways it caused permanent changes to your entire outlook about workers and their performance both at home and the office.
I do appreciate what you're saying that some folks do really well at home, I'm sure that's true.
Just like i'm sure all FBGs pay off their credit cards each month and yet...
Somehow we have a debt crisis in this country getting larger by the day but you check in here, most are getting free everything for using their credit cards and brag about it.
I believe you Scores, you sound pretty normal but I don't believe everyone is pushing their company to the front of the pack from the comfort of their home bathroom.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Most people steal from their companies that work from home and cry about going back into the offices, they're hiding something from their bosses and higher ups.No, I like your plan better where you $hit on anyone who wants to work from home, imply things about their work ethic, then take the high road.
Really, two
-I'm not taking the high road on that, anyone can say whatever they want about how great a job they do, we wouldn't expect any less around here.
-Everyone at FBG has no CC debt, 2% home mortgages and a 401 k/403b that would make a blind man blush, we got it.
And apparently all of them are perfect workers at home and in the office
Talk about laying it on thick Mass
Good job Buddy
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massraider
Footballguy
You don't know most people
so then it may be true for your job/industry but it is not wise to apply your thinking to everyone.You're right on much of this.
Yes, the same tools who stunk prior are much worse now, agreed.
We're talking non-profit University setting, people can get away with murder before they are ever shown the door
Just look at the college campuses right now, does it look like anyone is in charge at these places?
All good, I don't want to get into a war of words that's unnecessary, rather take pot shots and jokes at each other.
@eoMMan gets the first big zinger in. It got me laughing
dino259
Footballguy
Why are most of these companies that are going to 3 days in the office forcing Tue, Wed, Thur? What is the difference? Our president initially came back with full in the office and got tremendous push back. Enough so that he came back with 3 days in the office and 2 WFH. Our company also allows for ultimate flexibility. You have your set 3 days in the office and it doesn't have to match up with anyone else. You can also switch and adjust as necessary including partial days in the office. With all of that being said, the flexibility would go away if you aren't getting your work done. We actually prefer to be spread out over the full work week so at least 1 person is there to do daily tasks such as mail. You also get different mixes of people to interact with.
belljr
Footballguy
See my job most people wfh Monday.....so I go into an empty office AND it's a mistake to have wfh Monday. Those 6 or so Monday holidays baby ....
Ftr my mortgage is 3.25%
the idea is the point of having to come into the office is to be able to collaborate with others, if the office is only half full then not really collaborating with everyone, or the people you need to. also meetings where 1/2 the people are in office and 1/2 at home really don't work great, it's better if either everyone in house or on zoom. Now for some jobs maybe it won't matter a ton but I do see why my co. (financial) is doing it this way.
Nugget
Footballguy
How many people work in an environment where they would see the boss daily/weekly? Field sales - we weren't allowed in the office other than Mondays. Multiple jobs were my boss lived in other states. I had employees in LA, SF, Seattle, Denver, Phoenix. I work with groups in Michigan, Hungary, India. I'm on my laptop at 5am somedays, 11PM others, and I'll go workout for an hour at 9:30am or 2pm.
In 2012 I had 70+ flight segments. In 2023 I haven't been to a corporate facility or left my house for work. Under which scenario do you think I am more productive?
Scoresman
Footballguy
I don’t understand this one. Teams is way easier. No need to check which conference room is available, you can meet with people in other offices without the hassle of conference call numbers and passcodes, etc. I don’t see any advantage to on site meetings. I don’t know how a 5 minute F2F turns into “endless hours” via Teams. If anything it’s the opposite.
There’s also the chat feature that lets you quickly get some info without having to find the person and meet in the first place.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
D-I-S-C
It's one of those 4 when we're talking business.
Most of the Shark Pool is either a "D" (strong will, results oriented) or a "C" (analytical, precision oriented) in here.
MoP wishes he fit into one of those two categories but unfortunately does not.
At least 60-70%+ of most companies and organizations are filled with those 2 types of people, you are one of them, Mass.
And these people mostly get annoyed with folks like me.
massraider
Footballguy
I have no idea what this means, or what the last thing meant when you applied some statements to me, and implied I was laying it on thick. I don't speak MOP.
I think it's clear you don't know what you're talking about. You wanna audition for the next monthly column for Reader's Digest, knock yourself out, but none of these pretty nasty things you are saying bout WFH people is backed up with any data.
There are no studies showing that WFH hurts productivity, short of Mumbai call centers. Read the piece above.
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