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Ice Raid Thread (1 Viewer)

Don't Noonan said:
There is no evidence that Mr. Trump or Trump executives knew of her immigration status
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Ok and that's my point.  Do you think anyone, anyone at all, will pay a penalty for that? No of course not and in this situation I won't even say Trump Org is getting special treatment. These companies are doing it, they know they're doing it, the authorities local and federal know they're doing it, and they play games doing it.

I mentioned this earlier and I forget the names of the databases (e-verify is one), but one is the 'official' verifiable database, but there is another that is let's say 'looser' which allows employers to run checks against garbage data. So companies are allowed to use either and needless to say a lot of them like Trump Org and the factory in Iowa that the guy who killed the poor girl in Iowa was working at and many others use the garbage one.

So my point isn't really about Trump himself (I care but I don't), someone or multiple someones at his company have been employing illegal labor for years, in Florida, New Jersey and elsewhere, but then Trump Org is just a typical example.

 
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Jobber said:
Sounds like the communities in Mississippi are pretty pissed about this. 
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They probably thought when ICE was going to start rounding up illegal immigrants if was going to be the freeloaders in Sanctuary cities,  not the hard working/ productive  illegal immigrants in their communities. 

 
bananafish said:
It's particularly sad to hear posters, some of them fellow Americans I assume, repeat Trump's disingenuous horse#### line about only being against illegal immigration. Anyone remember that his fairytale wall was going to have a great big beautiful door? Meanwhile, they've tried everything they can think of -legally, financially,  logistically- to cut back legal immigration. Those impossibly long lines at the border? Of course they're deliberate. They cut the funds for processing, added paperwork and hearing requirements with little to no purpose, and then diverted even more funds for ICE raids. Last year's cap on legal immigration was the lowest in 40 years and they didn't even meet it. You've been had. 

It's quintessential Trump that, on his self-proclaimed Day of Unity, which was created to give him some sort of defense, no matter how pathetic and impotent, against his egging-on of white supremacists, he orders this ICE raid as a wink to his fans that he really didn't mean he actually liked brown people (like anyone bought it anyway). Then, after all the victims in El Paso refused to meet with him, instead of pausing for a moment of self-reflection to ponder the wisdom of his actions, his fragility forced him to start hate-tweeting Texas Democrats and accusing the Democratic Party of being the real racists  :lmao:

Don't worry,  he'll have his "have you no decency?" moment soon. There's not many people left with so little self-respect that they can stand pretending to like him any longer. 

It's been a rough couple of years, but this long, national nightmare will soon be over. 
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I’m pretty sure he’s the favorite to get re-elected.

 
JohnnyU said:
I also think it's great to open up 680 factory jobs for American citizens.  The 680 arrested were here illegally and doesn't deserve those jobs over Americans.
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Jobs going to citizens first? That is quite the Democratic Party concept. I didn't know you were a Democrat.

 
Don't Noonan said:
I can't believe how out of touch from reality so many of you are.  Crazy.
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Just above this post you point out the CEO of a closely held corporation with his name on it had no clue as to his own company’s hiring practices, and that he also was clueless that the woman cleaning his room, his family’s laundry and home, and with whom he interacted, had no idea she was an illegal immigrant.

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
Just above this post you point out the CEO of a closely held corporation with his name on it had no clue as to his own company’s hiring practices, and that he also was clueless that the woman cleaning his room, his family’s laundry and home, and with whom he interacted, had no idea she was an illegal immigrant.
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To be clear, you think the CEO of a corporation should be doing background checks on maids?  Come on Saints!  No way a CEO would be in charge of that and stop with the implication he interacted with her.   :rolleyes:

 
Don't Noonan said:
To be clear, you think the CEO of a corporation should be doing background checks on maids?  Come on Saints!  No way a CEO would be in charge of that and stop with the implication he interacted with her.  
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I think being aware of their hiring practices is more like it, and, frankly, yeah knowing who’s keeping your house is a pretty standard thing. Judicial and cabinet nominees have withdrawn their applications for less iirc.

 
Here is what I hope will be the grand compromise on illegal immigration someday.

I think we focus on the supply side of illegal immigration too much — people entering illegally.  Instead, we have to focus more on the demand side — employers hiring undocumented workers.  If there aren’t jobs available, people will come much less and will be less likely to stay.  

So how do you crack down on illegal hiring? The answer is a better verification system.  Our current one is obviously a joke since people can use stolen identities, their kids socials or even dead people’s identities and pass it. It’s also not mandatory for employers to use.

The federal government along with state and local governments have a plethora of information on every person.  Birth records, death records, tax information, school data, state ID information, etc.  It’s just a matter of combining all that information and utilizing it into an improved, intelligent verification system that becomes mandatory for all employers. In addition to new hires, we further require employers to report all their employees into the system each year. This way we can get an idea who might be using bad data and investigate. Of course, this all needs to be partnered with substantive civil and criminal penalties for employers who willfully circumvent the system.

If such a system were implemented, I truly believe the illegal immigration system would virtually disappear.  Conservatives concerned on this issue should be in favor.

The problem then will be with liberals. They want undocumented workers who have been contributing members of society to be able to stay.  So how can we get them to agree? The answer is amnesty. Allow law abiding undocumented people permanent resident status with a pass to citizenship.

This should be the bargain.  Allow most of the current undocumented to stay while having an excellent tool to curb the illegal labor demand in the future.

 
[scooter] said:
Ignorance is not a valid excuse for illegal activity.
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Let me get this straight.  You are cool with immigrants pouring into our country illegally but when a company hires someone based on falsely provided documents you blame the company that hired them and not the person that broke the law twice?   :lmao:

Guys, just listen to your logic it is crazy.

 
Don't Noonan said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Just above this post you point out the CEO of a closely held corporation with his name on it had no clue as to his own company’s hiring practices, and that he also was clueless that the woman cleaning his room, his family’s laundry and home, and with whom he interacted, had no idea she was an illegal immigrant.
Click to expand...
To be clear, you think the CEO of a corporation should be doing background checks on maids?  Come on Saints!  No way a CEO would be in charge of that and stop with the implication he interacted with her.   :rolleyes:
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Of course no one expects the CEO to do the background checks himself. But if a company fails to do its due diligence then yeah the CEO should be held responsible. Otherwise we're just allowing companies to use plausible deniability to continuously break the law.

 
Don't Noonan said:
[scooter] said:
Ignorance is not a valid excuse for illegal activity.
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Let me get this straight.  You are cool with immigrants pouring into our country illegally but when a company hires someone based on falsely provided documents you blame the company that hired them and not the person that broke the law twice?   :lmao:

Guys, just listen to your logic it is crazy.
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I am not cool with immigrants pouring into our country. Don't ever put words in my mouth, you understand me?

 
Juxtatarot said:
The federal government along with state and local governments have a plethora of information on every person.  Birth records, death records, tax information, school data, state ID information, etc.  It’s just a matter of combining all that information and utilizing it into an improved, intelligent verification system that becomes mandatory for all employers. In addition to new hires, we further require employers to report all their employees into the system each year. This way we can get an idea who might be using bad data and investigate. Of course, this all needs to be partnered with substantive civil and criminal penalties for employers who willfully circumvent the system.
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You know it used to be by design that government information was not aggregated among different agencies.  It was a big deal way back when the Selective Services data was used in college scholarship, grants, and loans.  A few years ago it was no longer a big deal when the ACA exchanges went mixing data from IRS and a bunch of other agencies.  Well it was a big deal technically as these systems were never meant to be accessed this way, jut a yawner philosophically.  I guess times have changed and people no longer  worry about the power that can be abused with the government becoming too efficient.  I'd rather it be purposely hard for government to do its job.

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
You know it used to be by design that government information was not aggregated among different agencies.  It was a big deal way back when the Selective Services data was used in college scholarship, grants, and loans.  A few years ago it was no longer a big deal when the ACA exchanges went mixing data from IRS and a bunch of other agencies.  Well it was a big deal technically as these systems were never meant to be accessed this way, jut a yawner philosophically.  I guess times have changed and people no longer  worry about the power that can be abused with the government becoming too efficient.  I'd rather it be purposely hard for government to do its job.
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We have several private companies that have a hell of a lot more data on us than the government.  Heck, with all the data breaches, criminals can even get more data on us.

 
Juxtatarot said:
We have several private companies that have a hell of a lot more data on us than the government.  Heck, with all the data breaches, criminals can even get more data on us.
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Because we have surrendered our rights of privacy without much of a fight.  Something we will someday regret if we don't already. 

Even still private companies don't have the same range of power over us as the government has.  At least until we surrender that also.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Ok and that's my point.  Do you think anyone, anyone at all, will pay a penalty for that? No of course not and in this situation I won't even say Trump Org is getting special treatment. These companies are doing it, they know they're doing it, the authorities local and federal know they're doing it, and they play games doing it.

I mentioned this earlier and I forget the names of the databases (e-verify is one), but one is the 'official' verifiable database, but there is another that is let's say 'looser' which allows employers to run checks against garbage data. So companies are allowed to use either and needless to say a lot of them like Trump Org and the factory in Iowa that the guy who killed the poor girl in Iowa was working at and many others use the garbage one.

So my point isn't really about Trump himself (I care but I don't), someone or multiple someones at his company have been employing illegal labor for years, in Florida, New Jersey and elsewhere, but then Trump Org is just a typical example.
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You don't even have to use a database. You just have to make sure that the I-9 is properly filled out. 

The ACLU would file lawsuits left and right if employers got forceful and started to question documents of citizens.

The "Go after the employers" angle is nothing but deflection from the real people committing fraud. It is a ridiculous concept to make them responsible and have to ferret out illegal immigrants. It is one thing to pay them under the table. Those employers are trash.

But to place blame on employers that withhold taxes, pay at least minimum wage, etc is silly.  

 
parasaurolophus said:
You don't even have to use a database. You just have to make sure that the I-9 is properly filled out. 

The ACLU would file lawsuits left and right if employers got forceful and started to question documents of citizens.

The "Go after the employers" angle is nothing but deflection from the real people committing fraud. It is a ridiculous concept to make them responsible and have to ferret out illegal immigrants. It is one thing to pay them under the table. Those employers are trash.

But to place blame on employers that withhold taxes, pay at least minimum wage, etc is silly.  
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This proves too much. 680 Hispanics here illegally in rural central Mississippi and none of the employers or townsfolk had any clue. Sure, ok.

 
From reddit and a pretty good post:

If we move past the immigration vs ICE issue : Koch Foods seems like a scumbag company. Most likely knowingly employing immigrants for cheap labor, exploiting and abusing them in the process. To me that sounds quite a lot worse than someone crossing a border to make their lives better and/or fleeing violence. Instead of fear mongering or wasting billions to build a pointless wall just because one night someone got on a stage and promised one, I'd like to see a crackdown on those profiting from illegal immigration. They're on par with coyotes, honestly.
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
This proves too much. 680 Hispanics here illegally in rural central Mississippi and none of the employers or townsfolk had any clue. Sure, ok.
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As I previously said, we don't know yet if the employees provided false documents. What we know is that the employers made statements that they use E verify. Maybe that isnt true. We will find out sooner or later. 

 
Mario Kart said:
From reddit and a pretty good post:
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If we started putting people who hire undocumented immigrants in prison and confiscating the property used in the crime like we do drug dealers (i.e. the business) the immigration issue would be close to solved pretty quickly. 

 
rockaction said:
God, I really like Tobias, but will you please stop moderating and playing board cop? It all starts from there. If there's something in the water, it'll generally pass without you jumping in and board copping a thread into a PSF moderation forum back-and-forth.

Same. damn. People. Every. Time. 
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Everyone put him on ignore. Problem solved. 

 
Mario Kart said:
From reddit and a pretty good post:
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Good points. Koch Foods recently lost a lawsuit and owed their employees $3.75 million for losing a lawsuit that they  engaged in racial sexual harrassement of their Miss. plant employees and then retaliated against those who spoke out. First off, it makes one wonder if this tip-off was another form of relaliation. Second, a week before the the raid the company was cited for not use safety guards on dangerous blades. They had an employee killed lin 2017. There was a also a complaint filed from a local bank that the plant was paying people under the table. Third, maybe Americans would want to work their if they didn't treat employees like crap. It does sound like the business should be the ones being targeted, not the low level employees.

 
Ilov80s said:
There was a also a complaint filed from a local bank that the plant was paying people under the table. 
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This also happened for the tennessee plant. Huge cash withdrawals were reported by a first citizens bank(like 25 million in a certain time frame dont remember how long) 

 
parasaurolophus said:
This also happened for the tennessee plant. Huge cash withdrawals were reported by a first citizens bank(like 25 million in a certain time frame dont remember how long) 
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Sounds like it's just a terribly ran outfit (and the owner is a billionaire so this is a massive organization). I am not sure how exactly this business should be punished, but it seems like it should be pretty severely. They are cheating so as to not pay proper taxes to help fund our country, they are avoiding hiring and paying Americans fairly by taking in illegal workers, they are treating those workers poorly, potentially they informed ICE of the illegal employees to set-up this raid as retaliation for the workers wanting to be treated better and ultimately they are one of the most responsible parties for some of our immigration issues. It's hard to tell the unatuhorized immigrants they can't come here and then we have 600 immigrants telling people back home that they work at a factory with 600 of them and there are plenty of jobs available for them. 

 
TobiasFunke said:
This isn't an answer to my question. Here it is again:

What is the policy reason behind treating this largely Hispanic immigration wave so very differently than the largely European immigration wave of the early 20th century? 
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Maybe the difference between an under populated country with land and resources so available one could homestead to an overcrowded one with social safety nets which potentially cost the citizens.  Also during previous waves of immigration there was opposition, to the Chinese, the Irish, to olive skinned Mediterranean folks so opposition is not unprecedented.  I get it, I believe some if not much of the current opposition is racist or classist or a cultural xenophobia, but the opposition is not unprecedented nor are the situations analogous 150 years removed in time.

Me, I think there is some good even from the most apparently wretched of the newcomers, those without resources or education but with the spirit to strike out to something unknown and new in the hope of a better life.  Folks such as those may be our next innovators in a generation or two.  Who knows but that spirit they exhibit in forging into the unknown  may be what produces the next wave of technological innovation, the next great industry.   That recognized, there are limits to what we can reasonably absorb.  Are those limits higher than currently set, maybe, probably, but there are limits.

BTW, good to see you posting again.

 
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
Me, I think there is some good even from the most apparently wretched of the newcomers, those without resources or education but with the spirit to strike out to something unknown and new in the hope of a better life.  Folks such as those may be our next innovators in a generation or two.  Who knows but that spirit they exhibit in forging into the unknown  may be what produces the next wave of technological innovation, the next great industry.   That recognized, there are limits to what we can reasonably absorb.  Are those limits higher than currently set, maybe, probably, but there are limits.
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bolded = best sentence in your response.  But some like to ignore that part.

 
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
Maybe the difference between an under populated country with land and resources so available one could homestead to an overcrowded one with social safety nets which potentially cost the citizens.  Also during previous waves of immigration there was opposition, to the Chinese, the Irish, to olive skinned Mediterranean folks so opposition is not unprecedented.  I get it, I believe some if not much of the current opposition is racist or classist or a cultural xenophobia, but the opposition is not unprecedented nor are the situations analogous 150 years removed in time.

Me, I think there is some good even from the most apparently wretched of the newcomers, those without resources or education but with the spirit to strike out to something unknown and new in the hope of a better life.  Folks such as those may be our next innovators in a generation or two.  Who knows but that spirit they exhibit in forging into the unknown  may be what produces the next wave of technological innovation, the next great industry.   That recognized, there are limits to what we can reasonably absorb.  Are those limits higher than currently set, maybe, probably, but there are limits.

BTW, good to see you posting again.
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I wish I could give each section of this more likes.

The first section takes the complainant's points (the point about the distinctly racist or xenophobic impulses 150-100 years ago is immediately what I thought of) and rebuts, concedes, and concludes in regard to Tobias's question.

The second takes the speaker's own personal analysis of the issue and expounds upon it.

The third section is collegial and something I heartily agree with, so it's not only a nice gesture, it's a simpatico thing.

Regardless of agreement or non-agreement, if only all posts could be such. 

 
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
Maybe the difference between an under populated country with land and resources so available one could homestead to an overcrowded one with social safety nets which potentially cost the citizens.  Also during previous waves of immigration there was opposition, to the Chinese, the Irish, to olive skinned Mediterranean folks so opposition is not unprecedented.  I get it, I believe some if not much of the current opposition is racist or classist or a cultural xenophobia, but the opposition is not unprecedented nor are the situations analogous 150 years removed in time.

Me, I think there is some good even from the most apparently wretched of the newcomers, those without resources or education but with the spirit to strike out to something unknown and new in the hope of a better life.  Folks such as those may be our next innovators in a generation or two.  Who knows but that spirit they exhibit in forging into the unknown  may be what produces the next wave of technological innovation, the next great industry.   That recognized, there are limits to what we can reasonably absorb.  Are those limits higher than currently set, maybe, probably, but there are limits.

BTW, good to see you posting again.
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I think you are dead on with the safety nets and things provided by the govt. People feel like they are going to end up paying for their health care, schooling, etc. And of course you are right that we haven't always been keen on immigration. This isn't really all that different than Chinese immigrants in the West in the late 1800s, early 1900s. 

As for what we can absorb- depends if you mean physically or financially. Physically, it's a massive number. Financially, it is a lot more complex. 

 
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Ilov80s said:
Sounds like it's just a terribly ran outfit (and the owner is a billionaire so this is a massive organization). I am not sure how exactly this business should be punished, but it seems like it should be pretty severely. They are cheating so as to not pay proper taxes to help fund our country, they are avoiding hiring and paying Americans fairly by taking in illegal workers, they are treating those workers poorly, potentially they informed ICE of the illegal employees to set-up this raid as retaliation for the workers wanting to be treated better and ultimately they are one of the most responsible parties for some of our immigration issues. It's hard to tell the unatuhorized immigrants they can't come here and then we have 600 immigrants telling people back home that they work at a factory with 600 of them and there are plenty of jobs available for them. 
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I highly doubt they self reported this to ICE. That doesnt make any sense. If some of the claims trickling in are true, somebody will serve jail time for tax evasion and other crimes. 

 
My personal beliefs about national policy aside I do not want to see what is happening at our border exacerbated intentionally to create a wedge issue in the upcoming election.  The allowed or even arranged suffering there is beneath us as a country.  I get that we cannot allow immigrants to completely drive policy and to create a crisis by an overwhelming presence at our borders for processing, but I do not believe that is what is happening.  We are a country that can process billions of credit card transactions a day and the same with financial sells in our stock markets.  We can import millions upon millions of tons of goods, inspect, tax and process them in a day yet we can't clear a few tens of thousands at our border.  Nonsense.  If we have not done so it is because we do not desire to do so.

 
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rockaction said:
I wish I could give each section of this more likes.

The first section takes the complainant's points (the point about the distinctly racist or xenophobic impulses 150-100 years ago is immediately what I thought of) and rebuts, concedes, and concludes in regard to Tobias's question.

The second takes the speaker's own personal analysis of the issue and expounds upon it.

The third section is collegial and something I heartily agree with, so it's not only a nice gesture, it's a simpatico thing.

Regardless of agreement or non-agreement, if only all posts could be such. 
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You are most gracious.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
You are most gracious.
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Nah, DW. IMHO, the compliment was deserved and hopefully has a normative effect or function on the general tone and tenor of the board (not that I'm complaining or lamenting, it's just a good thing to aspire to regardless). And I won't derail any longer. Peace. 

 
if there are illegally here people - deport them

it what Democrats called said and promised for the last 20 year isn't it ?

 
yak651 said:
Can we send the business owners that employ them back to where they came from also?
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no

but fine them 1 years net income from their business ... make the fines so high that it might bankrupt them even ............... make it an exceptionally heavy price to pay

 
Stealthycat said:
if there are illegally here people - deport them

it what Democrats called said and promised for the last 20 year isn't it ?
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This is my favorite thing about next years election.  The Democrat Party has gotten so radical since Obama left 2.5 years ago on this issue it’s incredible.  The Obama regime deported many more illegals than what Trump is on pace to.  So much so you had Democrats in the debate last week attacking Biden for this.  It’s crazy how how of touch this party has become.

 
Sorry if mentioned already but interesting too they nabbed all of these people at work. The main reason always given for deportation is that they are lazy lowlifes that do nothing but suck at the proverbial teat of the US. 

 
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