***Official Donald J. Trump Impeachment (Whistleblower) Thread*** (7 Viewers)

[tonydead]

The veggie burger of nothingburgers.   

I always knew this was completely ridiculous and partisan (my mind was never going to change), but to see Jeffrey Toobin and CNN say how terrible the two star witnesses were just hammered it home. These two guys didn’t know anything other than rumors. This is Christine Blassey-Ford territory here. At least Blassey-Ford had drama and made good tv. This is like watching paint dry.  

The veggie burger of nothingburgers.   

 

[timschochet]

I look forward to reading/hearing the staffer's claim. Right now it's still hearsay. 

No it isn’t. Sondland, Vindman, and Trump himself (on the phone call) provide direct evidence. 

 

[Widbil83]

If your mind was never going to change then it seems like you are suggesting we shouldn't listen to you (and the folks on the other side).

I don’t care if you listen to me or not. But you guys do listen to CNN and they are agreeing with me that it’s terrible for Democrats that these two guys don't know anything. See he problem here?

 

[jamny]

It's a colossal blunder on his part and one he didn't have to do.  It just goes to show how inexperienced and unqualified that he is.  As others have pointed out - god help us if a smart version of Trump comes around for either party.

And it's what happens when you get rid of good people and surround yourself with yes men. I'd like to think this wouldn't have happened if Kelly was still there.

 

[Tolstoy]

“I heard Democrats are leaving the party over this!”

”Where?”

”Kevin McCarthy said he heard of one”

 

[Sheriff Bart]

I'm OK with what my eyes see and my ears hear.

“Just remember, what you are seeing and what you are reading is not what’s happening. Just stick with us, don’t believe the crap you see from these people, the fake news.” President Donald Trump, July 24, 2018

 

[Widbil83]

Just shameful- 

Manu Raju@mkraju

By a 13-9 vote, Dems kill GOP motion to subpoena whistleblower

 

[timschochet]

I don’t care if you listen to me or not. But you guys do listen to CNN and they are agreeing with me that it’s terrible for Democrats that these two guys don't know anything. See he problem here?

I just asked you to link this because I believe you’re stating a falsehood here. Now you’re doing it a second time. There are no CNN commentators other than Santorum who believed yesterday was bad for Democrats; there are no CNN commentators, including Santorum, who used the word “terrible”; there are no CNN commentators, including Santorum, who said “these guys don’t know anything.” If you have evidence to the contrary please provide it. 

 

[sho nuff]

No it isn’t. Sondland, Vindman, and Trump himself (on the phone call) provide direct evidence. 

Morrison as well, no?  Corroborates Taylor's claims, spoke directly to Sondland and stated that Sondland told him the President would release aid if Ukraine announced an investigation.

He was in on the talks of storing the call/transcript.

GOP held on only to that his opinion was it wasn't illegal.

 

[Kal El]

Just shameful- 

Manu Raju@mkraju

By a 13-9 vote, Dems kill GOP motion to subpoena whistleblower

They have the people the WB said were involved. Subpoenaing the WB is a pointless endeavor now, that is if Republicans actually care about subpoenas now.

 

[sho nuff]

I don’t care if you listen to me or not. But you guys do listen to CNN and they are agreeing with me that it’s terrible for Democrats that these two guys don't know anything. See he problem here?

I see a few problems.  First, who "listens to CNN"?  Who in here finds them the source for much of anything?  In addition, several have disputed your take that they claimed it was terrible for the Democrats and also that they ever said those two don't know anything.

 

[sho nuff]

Just shameful- 

Manu Raju@mkraju

By a 13-9 vote, Dems kill GOP motion to subpoena whistleblower

Yes...shameful that the GOP wants to continue to go after the whistleblower rather than worry about those with more knowledge of the situation.

 

[timschochet]

Morrison as well, no?  Corroborates Taylor's claims, spoke directly to Sondland and stated that Sondland told him the President would release aid if Ukraine announced an investigation.

He was in on the talks of storing the call/transcript.

GOP held on only to that his opinion was it wasn't illegal.

Correct. Forgot about Morrison. 

Of course there is also common sense. The idea that this sort of extortion from Ukraine would be demanded without Trump’s direct knowledge and direction is at best ludicrous. 

 

[KCitons]

I get that you're talking elected officials, but if you want examples of good people in DC you got two great examples today - Kent and Taylor. If you want the truth mute the politicians and listen to the pros. 

I don't disagree with the first part. But, Kent and Taylor are not our elected officials. Muting politicians is not a solution. It's ignoring a problem. 

 

[roadkill1292]

Asking the Ukrainians to announce an investigation into a political rival was both an abuse of power and an act of desperation. If the President of the United States thinks he has to play dirty pool to get re-elected, he must think he's in big trouble with the electorate.

The only corruption Alpha Don is concerned about is when he's not getting a piece of it himself.

 

[Max Power]

No it isn’t. Sondland, Vindman, and Trump himself (on the phone call) provide direct evidence. 

I'm talking about the staffer Taylor referenced. 

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

There is a fourth argument:lie. 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/14/media/impeachment-hearing-fox-news-reliable-sources/index.html

if you read this analysis of the major shows on Fox from last night- Carlson, Hannity, Ingraham- they simply told falsehood after falsehood, and sought to create the impression that yesterday was a huge win for Trump and a disaster for the Democrats. 

Does this give you any pause about your belief that the public hearings will significantly shift public opinion?

 

[JohnnyU]

Yes...shameful that the GOP wants to continue to go after the whistleblower rather than worry about those with more knowledge of the situation.

Trump has the right to confront his accusers.  At least in the mind of Americans he does.

 

[Widbil83]

Yes...shameful that the GOP wants to continue to go after the whistleblower rather than worry about those with more knowledge of the situation.

Shameful lack of transparency from the Democrats. Strictly partisan party line vote and zero of the other sides witnesses allowed. Enjoy your teams little theatre show, because they are going to pay for it next year at the voting booth. 

 

[timschochet]

What @Widbil83 is referring to is Jeffrey Toobin staying that the fact that the two witnesses had no direct knowledge of Trump’s involvement was a “problem.” He went on to explain that other witnesses, like Vindman and Sondland, should resolve that problem. He never called Taylor or Kent terrible; he never said that the Democrats had a bad day. In fact, he said that the testimony so far was “powerful” and he called the new information about Taylor’s aide a “bombshell”: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/videos/politics/2019/11/13/jeffrey-toobin-bill-taylor-testimony-trump-sondland-call-bombshell-vpx.cnn

 

[KCitons]

No they should not. See my conversation on this subject with @KCitons from yesterday. They should vote to impeach if they think him guilty of a high crime, and not vote to impeach if they don’t. 

But my point was that if they DID follow the will of their constituents, they would vote to impeach. Because you’re quite wrong about what those voters want. 

I don't expect all of them to vote to impeach. I think there would be individuals from both parties that would go against party lines. Whether that's representing their constituents or defending the Constitution. When they all vote down party line, it removes both from the equation. It's party politics. And quite frankly, I think it's time to wipe the slate clean and start over with a whole new group of people. 

I've made some crazy suggestions about treating Congress like jury duty. That may not be the best approach, but I'm tired of seeing career politicians making decisions for people they don't relate to, or worst, don't really care about. There has to be a better way. 

 

[Kal El]

Trump has every right to confront his accusers. 

If the WB is protected by federal law, which they are, Trump can go pound sand. His accusers are running the impeachment proceedings anyway.

 

[KCitons]

Trump has the right to confront his accusers. 

Do accusers have a right to confront Trump?

 

[jamny]

Is it known that the whistleblower is not willing to testify? Maybe he/she is willing to come forward. 

 

[timschochet]

Does this give you any pause about your belief that the public hearings will significantly shift public opinion?

Not really, because the shift is not going to come from folks who regularly watch Tucker, Hannity, or Ingraham. The folks who do will have their own shift, but that will come after the Senate has voted not to convict. 

 

[Apple Jack]

Trump has every right to confront his accusers. 

Where are you getting that he "has every right" to know who the whistleblower is? And Trump and his staff won't go anywhere near the hearings. How exactly do you see him confronting him/her?

 

[timschochet]

Trump has every right to confront his accusers. 

Agreed. But he shouldn’t have the right to prevent testimony, as he is currently doing. 

 

[AAABatteries]

I don’t care if you listen to me or not. But you guys do listen to CNN and they are agreeing with me that it’s terrible for Democrats that these two guys don't know anything. See he problem here?

I don't watch CNN but what I've read it doesn't sound like you agree with him on it being terrible but you do agree that they don't have direct testimony on conversations with Trump.

 

[Amused to Death]

Just shameful- 

Manu Raju@mkraju

By a 13-9 vote, Dems kill GOP motion to subpoena whistleblower

The subpoenas are meaningless, apparently. Just ignore them.

 

[Mario Kart]

Trump has the right to confront his accusers.  At least in the mind of Americans he does.

Trump can walk into Congress at anytime and testify to clear things up. Demand Trump to do just that. 

 

[Sinn Fein]

This is a point I think the Dems need to make more effectively:

Adam Schiff@RepAdamSchiff ·18h

Let's set the record straight:

Trump wasn't working to help Ukraine root out corruption.

On the July 25 call, he didn't ask Zelensky about any issue related to Ukraine's oligarchs.

He did ask about the Bidens. Trump's only focus was his own personal, political gain.

 

[The Commish]

Trump has the right to confront his accusers.  At least in the mind of Americans he does.

agreed....i'd love for him to sit in the witness chair under oath, but I'm confused now.....just last week the whistle blower = "Not credible, no first hand knowledge, all hearsay"  So why the change of heart?

 

[mr roboto]

Nope.  Not on any planet.

They like a strong man president apparently. I’m sure it has nothing to do with it being their guy though. They would be fine if Obama had done this I’m sure.  

 

[mr roboto]

Trump has the right to confront his accusers.  At least in the mind of Americans he does.

I’m sure they would welcome him to join the proceedings!  

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Did Kent use the term to dig up dirt or was that implied?

 George Kent: "I believe he was looking to dig up political dirt against a potential rival in the next election cycle."

- Taylor agreed.

 

[The Commish]

This is a point I think the Dems need to make more effectively:

Adam Schiff@RepAdamSchiff ·18h

Let's set the record straight:

Trump wasn't working to help Ukraine root out corruption.

On the July 25 call, he didn't ask Zelensky about any issue related to Ukraine's oligarchs.

He did ask about the Bidens. Trump's only focus was his own personal, political gain.

Every time the questioning started to go there, I thought "finally"....then they'd wander off the point.  Its simple to say "it's one thing to be after corruption in general and to seek help on that cause, it's another to ask for specific people to be investigated.  You're either after corruption in general and it doesn't matter where you find it or you are after an individual for personal reasons to help you, which is beyond the pale and flat out against the law"

 

[roadkill1292]

I don't expect all of them to vote to impeach. I think there would be individuals from both parties that would go against party lines. Whether that's representing their constituents or defending the Constitution. When they all vote down party line, it removes both from the equation. It's party politics. And quite frankly, I think it's time to wipe the slate clean and start over with a whole new group of people. 

I've made some crazy suggestions about treating Congress like jury duty. That may not be the best approach, but I'm tired of seeing career politicians making decisions for people they don't relate to, or worst, don't really care about. There has to be a better way. 

Our local chapter of the National Sortition Society meets every third Wednesday of the month.

 

[Widbil83]

A Democrat actually said this yesterday-

Democrat Rep. Mike Quigley (IL) on evidence: "Hearsay can be much better evidence than direct ... and it's certainly valid in this instance"

https://twitter.com/realsaavedra/status/1194710194166497281?s=21

 

[roadkill1292]

By "right to face his accusers," I assume that Trump supporters really mean "sit in the White House bathroom, watching Fox and tweeting out random insults" and not actually submitting to questions from congress about what his accusers are saying.

 

[roadkill1292]

Shameful lack of transparency from the Democrats. Strictly partisan party line vote and zero of the other sides witnesses allowed. Enjoy your teams little theatre show, because they are going to pay for it next year at the voting booth. 

Challenge accepted!

 

[Kal El]

A Democrat actually said this yesterday-

Democrat Rep. Mike Quigley (IL) on evidence: "Hearsay can be much better evidence than direct ... and it's certainly valid in this instance"

https://twitter.com/realsaavedra/status/1194710194166497281?s=21

Again, it was Day 1. They're going to bring in the firsthand knowledge people later. We've had this discussion.

 

[Koya]

“Just remember, what you are seeing and what you are reading is not what’s happening. Just stick with us, don’t believe the crap you see from these people, the fake news.” President Donald Trump, July 24, 2018

“The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.” 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

A Democrat actually said this yesterday-

Democrat Rep. Mike Quigley (IL) on evidence: "Hearsay can be much better evidence than direct ... and it's certainly valid in this instance"

https://twitter.com/realsaavedra/status/1194710194166497281?s=21

David Holmes who directly heard the discussion is testifying tomorrow. 

- The reason hearsay can be better is that without it you might never know a thing happened. When you know what happened you can then go to the persons involved and confront them.

 

[Apple Jack]

Shameful lack of transparency from the Democrats. Strictly partisan party line vote and zero of the other sides witnesses allowed. Enjoy your teams little theatre show, because they are going to pay for it next year at the voting booth. 

So, you are all for transparency? How do you feel about ignoring subpoenas?

 

[Mario Kart]

Shameful lack of transparency from the Democrats. Strictly partisan party line vote and zero of the other sides witnesses allowed. Enjoy your teams little theatre show, because they are going to pay for it next year at the voting booth. 

Are you complaining the rules the Republican’s made or are you complaining about how other impeachment proceedings have happened? Please specify. 

 

[The Dude]

A Democrat actually said this yesterday-

Democrat Rep. Mike Quigley (IL) on evidence: "Hearsay can be much better evidence than direct ... and it's certainly valid in this instance"

https://twitter.com/realsaavedra/status/1194710194166497281?s=21

So what?  There are a lot of fringe people on both sides saying stupid stuff.  They are not indictments on their party.   

 

[jamny]

Again, it was Day 1. They're going to bring in the firsthand knowledge people later. We've had this discussion.

Yeah, but you can admit it was a dumb thing to say.

 

[mr roboto]

@Widbil83 @JohnnyU I think getting Trump on record to defend himself would be in the country’s best interest. This is a great place to find common ground across the aisle. 

 

[Mile High]

Where are you getting that he "has every right" to know who the whistleblower is? And Trump and his staff won't go anywhere near the hearings. How exactly do you see him confronting him/her?

On Twitter 

 

[Mile High]

@Widbil83 @JohnnyU I think getting Trump on record to defend himself would be in the country’s best interest. This is a great place to find common ground across the aisle. 

It seems everyone is in agreement. Trump needs to come before the American people and testify under oath.