Patriots legacy (1 Viewer)

[-OZ-]

First, this isn't intended as a Pats-hate thread.

But, what does it tell us when these 3 can't handle the real gig? Does it show us that BB is the real genius, or that he can't develop his subordinates?

Did Romeo get a raw deal? (I think he kind of did)

Can Weiss pull the program around?

 

[Workhorse]

at the notion that it's an NFL Head Coach's job to "develop his subordinates" to become a Head Coach.

 

[BassNBrew]

The tree was harvested before the friut rippened.

 

[harryhood]

at the notion that it's an NFL Head Coach's job to "develop his subordinates" to become a Head Coach.

 

[Autumn Wind]

Weiss's failure at ND hardly reflects on Bill one way or another.

 

[DawnBTVS]

I think Mangini got more of the raw deal... He went 10-6, 4-12, and 9-7 (Complete with a new, aging QB who according to ESPN, complained about being chewed out for making bad throws).

Belichick uses his coaching staff and puts his coaches into positions where they'll benefit his team. If they struggle elsewhere, I don't see how you can put the blame on him.

 

[Uber]

Belichick advised Mangini to pass on the Jets job.

 

[Workhorse]

Herm Edwards: 3 winning seasons out of 5 with the Jets - .488 winning percentage, 3 playoff appearances, 2-3 in the playoffs

Eric Mangini: 2 winning seasons out of 3 with the Jets - .489 winning percentage, 1 playoff appearance, 0-1 in the playoffs

I don't remember too many people saying that ole Herm got a raw deal.

 

[Da Guru]

First, this isn't intended as a Pats-hate thread. But, what does it tell us when these 3 can't handle the real gig? Does it show us that BB is the real genius, or that he can't develop his subordinates? Did Romeo get a raw deal? (I think he kind of did) Can Weiss pull the program around?

Weiss seems better off up in the press box, Mangini sealed his fate with Farve, Crenell getting a raw deal?There were rumors that Crenell was way over his head from day 1.

 

[Bobcat10]

Did Romeo get a raw deal? (I think he kind of did)

Absolutely not.

 

[Jason Wood]

I think it's a testament to Belichick's ability to surround himself with capable people who do THEIR JOBS. Being a head coach is a vastly different job with vastly different responsibilities than being a coordinator, particularly working for one like Belichick who is so controlling.

The NFL is nothing if not cyclical. Every now and then a coach is anointed a genius and then his assistants become hot commodities. Sometimes it works out well, others are abject failures. The most famous is, of course, the Bill Walsh tree. And you run the gamut there from great successes to abject failures. Mike Holmgren [himself a Walsh offshoot] saw a number of his assistants get gigs elsewhere, many worked out well [Reid, Gruden].

 

[Foosball God]

Herm Edwards: 3 winning seasons out of 5 with the Jets - .488 winning percentage, 3 playoff appearances, 2-3 in the playoffsEric Mangini: 2 winning seasons out of 3 with the Jets - .489 winning percentage, 1 playoff appearance, 0-1 in the playoffsI don't remember too many people saying that ole Herm got a raw deal.

At least Edwards had 2 extra years to show his suckitude.

 

[Uber]

Not so fast!

Per Schefter, the Lions also fired the entire defensive staff and all offensive assistants except running backs coach Sam Gash and receivers coach Shawn Jefferson.

 

[Serenity Now]

The tree was harvested before the friut rippened.

I think this is most likely true, although Weis had been passed over many times for other positions in the NFL, so who knows?Either way, it seems that once players and/or coaches leave NE, they don't do so well. Coincidence?

 

[Statorama]

Some great assistants should have never become head coaches, and seem much more comfortable when they return to their roots (**** LeBeau for example).

 

[Chase Stuart]

Charlie Weis was a very good NFL OC way before Bill Belichick.

I've always though of Crennel as more of a Parcells guy. Mangini is the first Belichick guy in my head, with JM to be the second.

 

[golfguy]

i don't know, how many super bowls has bill belicheck WON without those surrounding assistants?

 

[phthalatemagic]

How many lombardis has BB won since Crennell and Weis left?

 

[Bobcat10]

Charlie Weis was a very good NFL OC way before Bill Belichick. I've always though of Crennel as more of a Parcells guy. Mangini is the first Belichick guy in my head, with JM to be the second.

Agree with this.McDaniels is probably next I'd assume?

 

[nerangers]

It is the Peter Principle...they were promoted to a level they were not competent for. Not everyone is cut out to be a head coach.

The Peter Principle is the principle that "In a Hierarchy Every Employee Tends to Rise to His Level of Incompetence." While formulated by Dr. Laurence J. Peter and Raymond Hull in their 1968 book The Peter Principle, a humorous treatise which also introduced the "salutary science of Hierarchiology", "inadvertently founded" by Peter, the principle has real validity. It holds that in a hierarchy, members are promoted so long as they work competently. Sooner or later they are promoted to a position at which they are no longer competent (their "level of incompetence"), and there they remain. Peter's Corollary states that "in time, every post tends to be occupied by an employee who is incompetent to carry out his duties" and adds that "work is accomplished by those employees who have not yet reached their level of incompetence".

 

[PMENFAN]

Herm Edwards: 3 winning seasons out of 5 with the Jets - .488 winning percentage, 3 playoff appearances, 2-3 in the playoffsEric Mangini: 2 winning seasons out of 3 with the Jets - .489 winning percentage, 1 playoff appearance, 0-1 in the playoffsI don't remember too many people saying that ole Herm got a raw deal.

At least Edwards had 2 extra years to show his suckitude.

Let's not forget that the Chiefs actually thought Herm was a hot commodity after that display. I really can't believe Mangini got fired. Romeo? He just wasn't a good HC. He was great at executing BB's plans. Maybe he ends up back there in some capacity. But, he is no spring chicken. As for BB. I think this year, more than any other, speaks to his greatness at the head of a franchise. Lost so many players, and still finish 11-5, with a QB who nobody else wanted and they developed (similar to Brady). Not everybody is cut out to be a head coach, and even then the situation plays hugely into success or failure. Weis has his players there now. Next year will tell. Mangini will get another shot, and do well. I put the Jets collapse on Favre, not Mangini. Favre makes great plays, but in between he displays idiocy, creating a need for greatness. The Jets must have somebody in mind, because I just don't see where Mangini deserved to get fired.

 

[valhallan]

Sorry guys, this is the Patriots legacy.

 

[DawgPoundNJ]

First, this isn't intended as a Pats-hate thread. But, what does it tell us when these 3 can't handle the real gig? Does it show us that BB is the real genius, or that he can't develop his subordinates? Did Romeo get a raw deal? (I think he kind of did) Can Weiss pull the program around?

Romeo's clock and game mismanagement cost us two games this year (Pittsburgh and Washington). His player mismanagement cost us half a season of development with our QB of the future. Nice guy? Yeah.Respected? Check.Classy? Absolutely.In over his head? Yup.It all starts at the top. It's his job to manage the game and subsequently his coordinators, and when you continually abandon certain aspects of the game, it's the coach's job to set things right. Not the media to tell you that your pass/run ratio was all over the charts. Him and his coordinators were awful at in-game adjustments and were constantly outcoached.

 

[MallRat]

Not so fast!

Per Schefter, the Lions also fired the entire defensive staff and all offensive assistants except running backs coach Sam Gash and receivers coach Shawn Jefferson.

Great catch, though if you want to get technical, those are Parcells' guys, not Belichick's.Still get goosebumps remembering the Tuna holding up the 1996 AFC championship trophy and thanking Sam Gash on national television.

 

[-OZ-]

at the notion that it's an NFL Head Coach's job to "develop his subordinates" to become a Head Coach.

Did I say it was?

But, what does it tell us when these 3 can't handle the real gig? Does it show us that BB is the real genius, or that he can't develop his subordinates?

I stated that it might show that he can't, not that he has to. CEOs don't have to develop their subordinates either, but many of the great ones do. Just like many of the great coaches have developed their staff to succeed, some feel it's part of their legacy.

 

[Bri]

I think it's a testament to Belichick's ability to surround himself with capable people who do THEIR JOBS. Being a head coach is a vastly different job with vastly different responsibilities than being a coordinator, particularly working for one like Belichick who is so controlling. The NFL is nothing if not cyclical. Every now and then a coach is anointed a genius and then his assistants become hot commodities. Sometimes it works out well, others are abject failures. The most famous is, of course, the Bill Walsh tree. And you run the gamut there from great successes to abject failures. Mike Holmgren [himself a Walsh offshoot] saw a number of his assistants get gigs elsewhere, many worked out well [Reid, Gruden].

Nice postI like Parcells tree better but....whatever.NFL Coaches are more managers than coaches. Cooridinators and position coaches do far more than I think most realize. I think Romeo will be scooped up pretty quick. Take a team like Dallas where their D played "eh" for much of the season but finished real strong. They led the league in sacks and need someone to refine it to the next level...and that level only has to be to allow less points than the O gets. Romeo can absolutely do that. He's not **** Lebeau but a step beneath IMO and someone I'm quite fond of running a defense.BTW I'll be curious to see if Willie McGinest or any of the older Pats(Browns) LBs joins the coaching ranks.

 

[Jayded]

I don't think you can chuck Weis into the argument given the differences in college football to pro. His biggest problem at ND has been his inability to motivate/teach kids right out of high school. It's much easier to convey complex systems on a multi-million dollar QB that has unlimited practice time and more experience than a 18 or 19 year old hot shot kid right out of high school.

 

[Rhino]

Sorry guys, this is the Patriots legacy.

Pretty sure this is the legacy I'll always remember...

 

[-baller]

coach

of

the

year

 

[KellysHeroes]

Belichick advised Mangini to pass on the Jets job.

BB knew that Eric wasn't ready yet; he only had 1 yr as a DC. As much as I didn't like him as the coach of my favorite team, Mangini wasn't that bad... he had 2 successful season and the middle season was injury plagued. The problem I had was that the guy just stood on the sidelines while his team fell apart, no emotions, no heart, it was almost like he didn't care.Romeo; I would say that he kind of got the shaft... HC on a bad team. He did make some bad time management calls on primetime. Hopefully he allowed to stay on as something.Weiss is a just a troll living off his super deal from ND & his rings. His one success was off of the other guys team and recuits. Hes going to be given a huge pay day to go away by some fat pocketted alaumi and he'll ride off into the sun set.usually, a successful coach like BB and the tuna only produces one or two Head Coaches in a career. How many of Tuna's men have been give a chance and how many have succeeded? Also, most HC's fail at thier 1st job.

 

[Finless]

Those coaches are what they are ...without Tom

 

[LongDuckDong]

Belichick's legacy would also have to include Nick Saban, Pat Hill, Kirk Ferenz, for starters (good or bad - your mileage may vary on their success).

Oh, and if we were evaluating this in 1996 or so, would we be evaluating whether Bill Belichick and Ray Handley was an indication of his legacy.

Not saying the point isn't a valid one, but I suspect one better evaluated with 10-20 years of distance rather than 3-5.

 

[massraider]

But, what does it tell us when these 3 can't handle the real gig? Does it show us that BB is the real genius, or that he can't develop his subordinates?

First: Yes, BB is the real genius. Second: It's not in his job description to develop head coaches. If they do a great job as assistants, that's all he cares about.

 

[Borat]

i don't know, how many super bowls has bill belicheck WON without those surrounding assistants?

How many lombardis has BB won since Crennell and Weis left?

Really?

 

[Kleck]

Belichick's legacy would also have to include Nick Saban, Pat Hill, Kirk Ferenz, for starters (good or bad - your mileage may vary on their success). Oh, and if we were evaluating this in 1996 or so, would we be evaluating whether Bill Belichick and Ray Handley was an indication of his legacy. Not saying the point isn't a valid one, but I suspect one better evaluated with 10-20 years of distance rather than 3-5.

I had forgotten about Ferentz's stint with the Browns. Between Belichick and Hayden Fry, he's learned from some good ones.

 

[Chase Stuart]

i don't know, how many super bowls has bill belicheck WON without those surrounding assistants?

How many lombardis has BB won since Crennell and Weis left?

Really?

I take it that's a zero?

 

[Don Quixote]

Herm Edwards: 3 winning seasons out of 5 with the Jets - .488 winning percentage, 3 playoff appearances, 2-3 in the playoffsEric Mangini: 2 winning seasons out of 3 with the Jets - .489 winning percentage, 1 playoff appearance, 0-1 in the playoffsI don't remember too many people saying that ole Herm got a raw deal.

Wasn't Herm "traded"? I don't see how that is a raw deal.

 

[DazYam48]

Maybe Romeo, Mangini and Weiss couldn't set up complex cheating and spying programs fast enough when they became head coaches?

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Maybe Romeo, Mangini and Weiss couldn't set up complex cheating and spying programs fast enough when they became head coaches?

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Sorry guys, this is the Patriots legacy.

Are those VCR's under the cloth? Those things blocking up those tainted trophies. Man its true, just hide that stuff in plain sight.

 

[JohnnyU]

I haven't read one post in this thread, but doesn't all the failures of the NE disciples just show how good Belichick is?

 

[Borat]

i don't know, how many super bowls has bill belicheck WON without those surrounding assistants?

How many lombardis has BB won since Crennell and Weis left?

Really?

I take it that's a zero?

It's a zero, but it's a ridiculous point to make. Belichick led the Pats to the Super Bowl following an undefeated regular season in '07, and and he followed that up with perhaps his best performance yet as a coach in '08. Meanwhile, Mangini has gone on to become head coach of the Jets, and McDaniels is on the verge of landing a head coaching gig himself. Pretty sure Belichick is doing just fine without Crennell and Weis.