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Redman's Basic Raw Feeding Guide for Dogs (1 Viewer)

redman

Footballguy
Introduction

First of all, I'm going to assume the logic of raw feeding is already known to you, so I won't explain it here. I'm also going to ignore discussion about the nutritional benefits. Second, there is much, much more information that you should read on this subject besides what I'm putting here. This is only my way of doing things, which I acknowledge can be improved upon - I've simply tried to keep what I thought were the essentials and then streamline the process to fit my lifestyle. That's an important consideration though: as with your diet, you won't continue a routine that is unmanageable.

You need to suspend your prior concepts about what is proper eating and what is not. The nutritional and dietary rules are different - VERY different at times - for dogs and people. For example, chicken bones do NOT choke dogs, as long as they're raw; cooked bones can fragment and are a choke hazzard for a dog. When I was feeding my dog (when she was a puppy) chicken necks, I was shocked to find nearly intact chicken vertebra in her stool, but she was none the worse for the wear. She chews what she needs to be able to swallow and digest the food, and her system does the rest. Frankly, a dog's digestive system would do a billy goat proud.

Similarly, dogs don't have the same concerns at all regarding bacteria that we do. When we cook food, we're doing it to assist us in digestion and to kill bacteria. Dogs' shorter and more intensive digestive tract enables them to break down food while not being exposed to bacteria for nearly as long as we are while they're doing it. Remember, they evolved as scavengers who would come across other animals' kills and eat them, and not as hunters like cats (who won't eat carrion). Dogs became domesticated by hanging out at the fringes of human settlements and surviving on garbage and scraps. I've fed Molly meat that made me gag because of how gamey it had become. Short of an old piece of meat walking away on its own, I don't worry about it, and my dog is very happy to eat it.

In the same vein, forget about variety as a concern. A dog doesn't worry about that. Do they like to eat other things? Absolutely, but when presented with the same meal for the 37th day in a row, they don't think about variety and they're quite happy to eat what you put down in front of them. And as far as your routine goes, repetition is your friend because you get the benefit of economies of scale, both in terms of purchasing and storage. Pay attention to your dog though - mine ended up being allergic to turkey (I could tell from the fact that she would scratch incessantly when I fed it to her), so I switched to chicken and it was fine.

What equipment do I need?

You need a kitchen scale. I would suggest at least a 5 lb. digital one. I bought mine off of Amazon.com for around $24. It works very nicely. But measuring your dog's food down to the ounce is essential. You absolutely need to track how much food you're giving your dog because the dog's needs will change over time as he ages and (if applicable) as his activity level changes.

You need 1 gallon freezer bags to store your food in. I buy through my co-op 40 lbs. of frozen, split chicken backs. Once thawed I break these down into 7 freezer bags.

You need an additional freezer. I have a second, upright refrigerator with freezer in my garage which I use. This is ideal as you can pull the frozen bags out of the freezer and then feed the dog out of the thawed but still refrigerated stuff below. But the freezer is the key; the refrigerated food can be safely stored in your kitchen refrigerator. If energy concerns are a problem, then use a box freezer which is more energy efficient. Obviously, feel free to use the refrigerator and freezer to store your food along with your dog's.

I would also highly recommend some restaurant grade food storage containers. I bought 5 plastic storage containers that each hold 5 lbs. of thawed chicken livers (note the 5 lb rating on the kitchen scale that I suggested). They can also hold other things of course. Most importantly they can also be sealed with lids that snap on, which helps to keep the food fresh. This will help to keep your refrigerator clean, and makes the food more manageable. Freezer bags filled with meat that have been frozen and then thawed, and they repeatedly picked up and set down over a few days will leak the juices from the meat, so the container helps to catch that. Even the best freezer bags aren't rated for that much use, but that leads me to my next point.

You don't need the best materials. I purchased the generic freezer bags and the plastic food containers at Smart & Final, a wholesale warehouse out here (I don't know where else they're located) that is a food service vendor in addition to being a smaller food oriented version of Sam's Club or Costco. I can purchase 100 freezer bags for less than $10, which is a steal, and those last me for quite a while.

Finally, you need a good supply of meat. If you're paying retail prices for your dog's food, then you're paying too much. Your dog doesn't require the best cuts of meat. You can feed them chicken wings and drumsticks and breasts, but then you're competing with human consumers for those things which means the price is higher. I feed my dog chicken backs which are one of the classic staples of raw feeding because 1) it has an ideal ratio of fat to meat to bone, and 2) chicken backs are about the cheapest cut of the bird. My co-op enables me to purchase 40 lb. cases of them for around $.29/lb., or about $13/case. (To compare, while you do feed your dog more raw food than you would kibble because of the water weight in it, a $40 lb. bag of good quality kibble costs at least $40.) While I've been lucky enough to have my co-op, you can approach your local butcher about getting the chicken backs from them given that most stores don't tend to sell them and basically discard them anyway.

I also buy the cheap kind of hamburger patties for so-called "muscle meat" (more on that below). I get 10 lb. cases of them from Smart & Final for around $16 (yes, it's more expensive, but this is also a much smaller proportion of my dog's diet so it's certainly manageable and it's necessary from a dietary standpoint). These are most assuredly the low end of hamburger patties, but that doesn't matter - my dog thinks it's pumpkin pie. I even save the additional $1.50 by buying my dog the kind of patties that have the higher amount of fat, given that dogs need a higher amount of fat in their diet anyway. Besides - and this is key - they're all premeasured and pre-cut into 2.7 oz patties, and separated between wax paper sheets, which means I don't have to re-measure them every day when I feed them to my dog. Streamlining is your friend! :)

Finally, you need a nearby veterinarian who will let you come in every 2-4 weeks and weigh your dog. My local vet has their electronic scale in their waiting area, which means that I can just walk in, use the scale and then leave. This is essential in order to track your dog's weight which is your responsibility. It can be hard to spot weight problems in dogs (after all, as my vet says, their clothes always fit!). As a general matter you should be able to at least feel if not see their ribs (depending upon the thickness of their coat), as well as the tuck of their tummy as it approaches their hind legs. Monitoring for weight changes helps you know when you're feeding too much, or when there's another medical problem affecting weight.

What do I feed to my dog?

Here's what I feed, again using the 60%/25%/15% ratio of raw meaty bones (RMB's), muscle meat, and organ meat.

RMB's - These are any kind of bone which has meat on it and which (bone) can be consumed in whole or in part by the dog. I prefer chicken because of a combination of cost and also the fact that those bones are 100% consumable. Beef, pork, lamb and other bones would fall into this category, but those bones are not as easily consumed, and they also can cause deterioration of teeth over time from the amount of gnawing necessary to consume them. Don't get me wrong, dogs are made to gnaw on bones, but if they're doing it a lot every day tooth wear can become a problem. So I use chicken backs, but any fowl if it's available to you will work well.

Muscle meat - This is any meat that is boneless and that is not an organ. For example, if you have a boneless chicken breast, then that would be muscle meat; if that chicken breast still has the rib meat and bones, then that would be an RMB. Ground meat falls into this category. My muscle meat of preference is ground beef because it puts some different kind of meat into her diet besides chicken, and because it's readily available, affordable and pre-measured into hamburger patties. I've also used ground turkey (until I found she was allergic of course), ground/rendered chicken, and even whole ground rabbit (and I mean whole, fur and all! I was told to treat this as a muscle meat even though the bones would obviously be in there).

Organ meat - this is obviously any meat that is entirely made up of an animal's organ. This can range from chicken livers or gizzards to beef heart to anything in between. This is a key area of nutrition for your dog and really should be part of your dog's diet for optimal health. Again, I use chicken livers because liver is especially nutritious and because they tend to be very inexpensive; they're also small which means that I don't need to pre-cut them in order to get the right amount into the food the way that I would with a beef heart; they're essentially pre-measured for you, courtesy of the Almighty. :)

Note: Muscle meat and especially organ meat are very "rich", and sometimes are a shock to a dog's system. This is particularly true with older dogs who have been fed for years with kibble. To avoid problems (usually diarrhea which can be severe), you should start them on RMB's only, for a week or two, then add muscle meat for a week or two, and then add organ meat. Their bodies will "remember" how to digest these things, but you need to ease them onto the new routine.

Supplements - this is really its own area and you should read up on this, but there are a few essentials that should always be in your dog's meals IMHO. The first is apple cider vinegar (ACV) believe it or not. ACV acts as a dog's multi-vitamin as it has something like 17 of the 22 essential vitamins that a dog needs in its diet. You only need to add 1-2 tsps to the meal. The other essential supplement is plain yogurt (with active cultures) which is good for the digestive tract and also adds some calcium and fat for the dog; don't get low fat (unless they're all out of the regular kind) and don't get anything other than plain, including vanilla as the dog doesn't need that and certain fruits may not be good for your dog. I also add a very small amount of minced garlic to my dog's food as a flea repellant; I emphasize small because garlic in quantity can be harmful for your dog, but you don't need much for the repellant affects. I also add a raw egg to her meals twice per week. I'll post some more info on supplements at the bottom.

How much do I feed my dog?

This is the trickiest part of feeding, but once you've worked it out you just stick with the same measurements and only adjust them as needed based upon how your dog is doing. Here's the basic way to do this, but remember, your mileage will vary and you need to monitor and adjust as necessary.

Depending upon the overall age and activity level of your dog, you should calculate between 2.0% and 4.0% of their ideal body weight, using a lower percentage for an older and/or less active dog, and a higher percentage for a younger/active dog; activity level should be taken into account more than age though, so an active older dog should still be considered for the higher end of the scale as a general matter. A working dog such as a field dog or police dog that is getting constant exercise will tend to need up towards the maximum (I'd recommend starting at around 3.5% and adjusting up or down as needed), while a family pet or companion animal that tends to be a couch potato with infrequent exercise will tend to need near the minimum (I'd recommend starting at 2.5% and adjusting as needed).

Puppies up until around 12-18 months need more than they otherwise would given their overall lifestyle because they're of course building bones and muscle. The problem with puppies of course is trying to figure out their ideal body weight given that they're not fully grown. If you can judge based upon averaging the size of their parents, then that's not a bad way to loosely calculate. Otherwise, ask your vet to estimate how big they'll be as adults.

And let me emphasize, you go off of IDEAL body weight. If you've already got an overweight family pet or an underweight rescue animal, then you're doing your dog a disservice by using their actual weight.

You must adjust the diet depending upon what you observe about their weight. As I said above, as a general matter you should be able to at least feel if not see their ribs (depending upon the thickness of their coat), as well as the tuck of their tummy as it approaches their hind legs. Monitoring for weight changes helps you know when you're feeding too much, or when there's another medical problem affecting weight. This is where that veterinarian scale becomes so important.

So, using a 50 lb. dog, 3% would of course work out to 1.5 lbs. You next convert this to ounces, remembering that there are 16 ozs. to a lb., and not 10 or 12, which are common errors. :) 1.5 lbs. therefore computes to 24 ozs. This is the amount of food that your dog needs as his per day average. This is not per meal - it's per day! That's an important consideration because some people who opt to feed their dog twice per day, obviously are feeding only 12 ozs. per meal using our model 50 lb. dog. Others who try to mimic the scavenging a dog does only feed their dog once every other day, which means they feed double portions or 48 oz. meals. For my convenience, I feed my dog once per day, but you should read up on the subject of frequency of meals because there are different theories out there.

Now, here's where you go back to that 60/25/15 ratio I described for RMB's/muscle meat/organ meat. Using the 24 oz. daily total, that ratio would work out as follows as measured in ozs:

RMB's - 14.4 ozs.

Muscle meat - 6 ozs.

Organ meat - 3.6 ozs.

This, in a nutshell, is your dog's meal.

Note: you do NOT include supplements in your weight calculations.

Let me emphasize, I don't measure my dog's meal down to the tenth of an ounce. I get it to within one ounce or so, taking special note of when I'm particularly low or high in one area, and then adjusting the next meal accordingly. This is only a loose system, but it works. Some meals may measure out to 25.5 ozs., so I may then make the next meal 23 ozs. or so to compensate.

For those people living in cold weather climates, your dog's activity levels may change depending upon season and so you should take that into account when calculating the percentage.

One more thing - your dog will always lie to you and make like he's hungry. As long as you're measuring using this system and monitoring his weight for problems but finding none, then ignore this. As with people, "treats" or "snacks" throw off any diet and add needless calories. Avoid them as a general matter. A good treat for a dog is a beef soup bone, which provides some nice meat along with a good bone to chew on. If you give such a treat, then reduce the size of their next meal accordingly.

This sounds complex, and I suppose that it is, but once you've worked out your system, it's truly not so bad at all.

My feeding routine

Each morning, I go out into my garage and I power up my kitchen scale, and I pull out my thawed bag of chicken backs, my container of thawed chicken livers, a 30 oz. container of plain yogurt, a couple of beef patties, and a jar of minced garlic. I have a large bottle of apple cider vinegar sitting on the work bench near the scale.

I go ahead and plop the two beef patties into the dog's bowl, along with a large dollop (I don't bother measuring) of the plain yogurt. I then measure out 4 ozs. of chicken livers by doing the following: I put the container of livers on the scale, I hit "tare" which resets the scale to a reading of 0.0 ozs. and enables the scale to measure (backwards) what is being removed from the container. I obviously stop dishing out chicken livers when the reading hits -4.0 ozs. or whatever my goal amount is. This method helps to prevent you from dirtying up another container that you would have to place on the scale and scoop the livers into, before then dishing them into the dog's bowl. Don't as a general matter worry about measuring down to a tenth of an ounce. Streamlining . . .

I splash some apple cider vinegar on the food, put in enough garlic to fill only the end of the spoon, and then I mix all of this stuff together until the beef patties are all broken up, and everything is covered by the yogurt - this helps prevent your dog from deciding, for example, not to eat the chicken livers if he doesn't like them; it still may happen, but over time they'll start eating them. If you're adding fish oil or some other supplement, you should also add that before mixing.

After that's thoroughly mixed up, I then plop the bag of chicken backs onto the scale, hit the tare button again, and then remove as many chicken backs as I need. The RMB's are put in last because they are larger and more solid, and therefore don't mix nearly as well with the other. I just place them on top of the other food. I then serve and of course put the remaining food away.

Ideally, you are journalling the amount of each type of food that you feed your dog. I've never done this, but I do have a dry erase board in my garage that I use to mark the total amount of food in ounces that I've fed to my dog for the last week. If it's Wednesday, I simply erase the total from last Wed. and replace it with today's amount.

But there it is, you're finished in about 3 mins. The largest investment of time by far for me is breaking down the shipments of food, but even then I only average 1 hour per month, which comes to only an additional 2 mins per day. I weigh my dog simply when I'm running errands near my vet's office, which means I just throw her in the car with me. I'm no fanatic about the details of the diet. If I run out of chicken livers on a Tuesday, if I can't get to the store before Saturday I don't panic and I just fill in the remaining volume of her diet with other types of food.

Other things to read up on:

Frequency of feeding - ranges from twice per day to every other day.

Day of fasting - some people think that digesting all of this protein, while obviously necessary, is somewhat stressful for a dog's kidneys and that they should be fasted for one day per week. I don't do this as a general matter, but you should read up on this subject.

Teaching dogs to chew - older, kibble fed dogs have a tendency to inhale their food without much chewing at all. Such dogs may need to be closely monitored to prevent them from choking on food that is not chewed enough. Start these dogs on RMB's, and you should even go so far as to hold one end while they chew the other to ensure that they are chewing properly. They'll get the hand of it soon enough.

Green Tripe - this is a great supplement. It's simply a ground up cow's stomach with the stomach contents still inside, hence the green (or sometimes gray or brownish) color. While a dog does not eat what a cow eats, dogs in the wild are known to eat the stomachs of their prey, which people have found provides them with additional nutritional benefits. The reason? The dog benefits from the cow's stomach enzymes in breaking down the grasses and grains, and can therefore digest and enjoy the benefits of those things when they otherwise could not. It's essentially a doggy salad. A word of warning - green tripe smells like the end product of the cow's digestive process, and it doesn't wash off of your hands easily, so it's unpleasant to handle. OTOH, my dog, who's not a particularly food motivated dog, dives into this stuff and absolutely loves it. I try to feed her a meal made up of 50% or so of this stuff twice per week.

Supplements like fish oil (menhaden oil is highly recommended, as is salmon oil), and any number of other options are out there. Read up on them for more options. I tend to use salmon oil as a supplement in every other meal or so.

Good raw feeding links

Dr. Billinghurst's website

Raw feeding FAQ's

More raw feeding info

Site with background facts about raw feeding and its own links

That should get you started for now.

 
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Nice info! I have been considering going raw with my dogs since one has proven to be very allergic to different types of kibble - he gets massive ear infections if we try something different. We thought it was the beef, and switched to a Lamb and Rice, and that seemed to work. Then the store was out of the brand we bought the first time, so we tried a different brand, still Lamb and Rice, and poof, the infection flared back up.

It's getting better now back on the first L&R, but I have read that many people see less allergy type problems on a raw diet. Any experiance or thoughts there?

Also, if you wouldn't mind posting some links to your favorite resources for info about this, I would love it.

 
I'll add good info links to the bottom of my original post for convenience once I get some more time today. That took a little longer to do than I'd figured . . . :unsure:

 
Sweet. Thanks Redman. Really appreciate the insights. I'm buried on a couple of other things right this second but I'll be back here soon and will dig in. Thanks for sharing. :thumbup:

J

 
:goodposting:

I don't know if I'll go this route but nice job on providing the information and your experience with the diet.

 
Price wise, how do you find this compares to the "premium" kibble in pet stores? I've never purchased split chicken backs or livers in bulk.

 
Excellent stuff. I'll be doing some more research into this but it sounds like it's something I really should condsider.

 
Can't do this with mine because he has skin issues. BUt I will consdier this with my next dog. Good stuff. :thumbup:

 
Not to threadjack, but do you any info on potty training a puppy. He is now 7 months old. We tried a professional trainer, that didn't work. Tried taking him out every hour, didn't work.

:popcorn:

 
Not to threadjack, but do you any info on potty training a puppy. He is now 7 months old. We tried a professional trainer, that didn't work. Tried taking him out every hour, didn't work. :popcorn:
You've now got an entrenched problem, which also causes me to ask whether you have a medical problem of some sort underlying these issues, e.g. a parasite causing bowel or bladder problems. Google "crate training" for dogs and read up. That's the best way.
 
Thanks Redman. That's a very thorough and helpful post. :thumbup: to you there. Thanks.

A few questions:

On the 60/25/15 ratio, you mean ratio by weight, correct?

On the puppy thing, can you help there? I have a golden retreiver that will be 75 pounds or so likely as an adult. But he's probably 45-50 pounds now as he's still growing. Tips there?

For the chicken livers, do you get them in bulk somewhere? Are they the normal chicken livers humans would buy?

Teeth cleaning. I've always thought canned food was bad as it didn't have any "crunch" to provide abrasion for keeping the teeth clean. Do the bones in chicken backs provide enough there?

Treats. Any problem "mixing" the BARF diet with a "normal" dog diet like in say giving them a milk bone type treat sometimes? Or are you better sticking 100% to the BARF

Lastly a philisophical angle I guess. I agree that this style of diet would mimic the diet a dog 25,000 years ago would eat. Or a wild dog today. I agree that a dog isn't going to normally eat much rice or grains outside of what he might find in the stomach of an antelope. Compared to the fancy grains in today's premium foods.

But my question is: Is that better? I mean, dogs 25,000 years ago didn't have rabies shots either. Or parvo vaccinations. Maybe it gets into a "God's design" thing (or not if you don't believe in God) but is the way that dog operated 25,000 years ago, necessarily the best way?

Does that make sense? Maybe the average dog 25,000 years ago only lived 4 years. But if he'd had Alpo kibble to eat instead of antelopes, he's have lived 12 years? See what I mean? I don't have the answer. I'm just asking the question. It's sort of the same thing with the Paleo Diet for humans. They propose that Man wasn't intended to eat farmed grains becauase farmed grains are relatively new. Well maybe he's better off with farmed grains. I dunno.

I'm sure this point comes up wiht hte BARF diet folks and if you've got insight there I'd love to hear the thoughts.

Thanks for the info. I'm going to check this out further and see what kind of supply situation I'll have locally. I appreciate very much your angle on convenience and "doability" as that is key in my life.

Thanks for the info.

J

 
Good follow up questions, Joe. I'll take them one at a time:

Joe Bryant said:
On the 60/25/15 ratio, you mean ratio by weight, correct?
In a word, yes.
Joe Bryant said:
On the puppy thing, can you help there? I have a golden retreiver that will be 75 pounds or so likely as an adult. But he's probably 45-50 pounds now as he's still growing. Tips there?
Assuming a 75 pound ideal healthy adult weight, then I'd feed him as if he's already 75 lbs., particularly as old as he is now. Puppies like kids put away calories like mad because they're building body mass. Closely monitor his weight and if he starts getting chubby, reduce the percentage a tad until you get it right. As with people, every dog's metabolism, lifestyle, etc. is just a little bit different, so what I gave you were rules of thumb.
Joe Bryant said:
For the chicken livers, do you get them in bulk somewhere? Are they the normal chicken livers humans would buy?
They're precisely the same ones that you would eat. With rare exception, the food I feed my dog is fit for human consumption (i.e. FDA approved), it's just that chicken backs don't tend to be a cut of choice for people. Notable exceptions would include green tripe, which even if you wanted to eat it ( :X ) would not be permitted for health reasons. I get my livers in 5 lb. cases through my co-op, and they are literally packed inside one of the famous chicken company boxes (e.g. Foster Farms, etc.)
Joe Bryant said:
Teeth cleaning. I've always thought canned food was bad as it didn't have any "crunch" to provide abrasion for keeping the teeth clean. Do the bones in chicken backs provide enough there?
Believe it or not, you will not need to clean your dog's teeth on a purely raw diet. The combination of the enzymes naturally produced by the dog's body to digest this diet, and the gnawing on bones (although this tends to be overstated, largely IMHO because of the Milk Bone marketing campaign) keep the dog's teeth clean and her breath fresh. My dog's 3.5 years old - I've never cleaned her teeth and they're perfectly white. For a while, my mother-in-law was sneaking her Milk Bone treats, which we discontinued when she began to put on weight. Her teeth had begun to yellow, but after having stopped that now for about 3 months, her teeth are as white as ever. The only thing to watch for is tooth wear, but that's more of a problem in an aging dog, and even then you can grind the RMB's up to help a dog in that situation.
Joe Bryant said:
Treats. Any problem "mixing" the BARF diet with a "normal" dog diet like in say giving them a milk bone type treat sometimes? Or are you better sticking 100% to the BARF
See above. If it's truly a sometime occurrence, the answer is "no", there's no real problem. As a practical matter in my house though, treats tend to be gotten whenever she "looks cute" or has "been good" or is begging, etc., so it became a problem that we just decided to eliminate completely. I came to call Milk Bone treats "Doggy Doritos", which I think is a pretty accurate nutritional picture. In a more general matter, what I've read is that your dog on a biological level digests kibble and similarly styled treats in a different way than he does raw food (hence the adjustment period for some dogs), which means that it's best to do all one diet or all the other. Definitely don't feed kibble on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays, and raw the rest of the week or something like that. Do all one or all the other. Otherwise you're putting stress on the digestive tract and your dog could develop problems.
Joe Bryant said:
Lastly a philisophical angle I guess. I agree that this style of diet would mimic the diet a dog 25,000 years ago would eat. Or a wild dog today. I agree that a dog isn't going to normally eat much rice or grains outside of what he might find in the stomach of an antelope. Compared to the fancy grains in today's premium foods.But my question is: Is that better? I mean, dogs 25,000 years ago didn't have rabies shots either. Or parvo vaccinations. Maybe it gets into a "God's design" thing (or not if you don't believe in God) but is the way that dog operated 25,000 years ago, necessarily the best way? Does that make sense? Maybe the average dog 25,000 years ago only lived 4 years. But if he'd had Alpo kibble to eat instead of antelopes, he's have lived 12 years? See what I mean? I don't have the answer. I'm just asking the question. It's sort of the same thing with the Paleo Diet for humans. They propose that Man wasn't intended to eat farmed grains becauase farmed grains are relatively new. Well maybe he's better off with farmed grains. I dunno.
A well-balanced raw diet is better than what a dog probably have had in the wild eons ago because of that balance and regularity, especially supplements. In essence what you're doing is optimizing a system that clearly must be the best way for the dog to operate biologically and nutritionally rather than truly mimic the hit and miss dietary lifestyle of a wild, scavenging dog. That's one of the reasons I don't go overboard with trying to mimic a "true" diet as a wild dog had it. Interesting that you bring up rabies shots - now that rabies has become virtually non-existent in America as a practical matter (for example, my vet told me that there hasn't been a recorded case of rabies in LA County in 100 years), people are aggressively beginning to question whether the stress to the body and the immune system that the shots and boosters cause is worth the benefit. As with surgery, it's great in an emergency (if rabies were rampant and a great danger) but nobody wants to undergo it if they can avoid it. I hope that answers your questions.
 
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Good follow up questions, Joe. I'll take them one at a time:

Joe Bryant said:
On the 60/25/15 ratio, you mean ratio by weight, correct?
In a word, yes.
Joe Bryant said:
On the puppy thing, can you help there? I have a golden retreiver that will be 75 pounds or so likely as an adult. But he's probably 45-50 pounds now as he's still growing. Tips there?
Assuming a 75 pound ideal healthy adult weight, then I'd feed him as if he's already 75 lbs., particularly as old as he is now. Puppies like kids put away calories like mad because they're building body mass. Closely monitor his weight and if he starts getting chubby, reduce the percentage a tad until you get it right. As with people, every dog's metabolism, lifestyle, etc. is just a little bit different, so what I gave you were rules of thumb.
Joe Bryant said:
For the chicken livers, do you get them in bulk somewhere? Are they the normal chicken livers humans would buy?
They're precisely the same ones that you would eat. With rare exception, the food I feed my dog is fit for human consumption (i.e. FDA approved), it's just that chicken backs don't tend to be a cut of choice for people. Notable exceptions would include green tripe, which even if you wanted to eat it ( :X ) would not be permitted for health reasons. I get my livers in 5 lb. cases through my co-op, and they are literally packed inside one of the famous chicken company boxes (e.g. Foster Farms, etc.)
Joe Bryant said:
Teeth cleaning. I've always thought canned food was bad as it didn't have any "crunch" to provide abrasion for keeping the teeth clean. Do the bones in chicken backs provide enough there?
Believe it or not, you will not need to clean your dog's teeth on a purely raw diet. The combination of the enzymes naturally produced by the dog's body to digest this diet, and the gnawing on bones (although this tends to be overstated, largely IMHO because of the Milk Bone marketing campaign) keep the dog's teeth clean and her breath fresh. My dog's 3.5 years old - I've never cleaned her teeth and they're perfectly white. For a while, my mother-in-law was sneaking her Milk Bone treats, which we discontinued when she began to put on weight. Her teeth had begun to yellow, but after having stopped that now for about 3 months, her teeth are as white as ever. The only thing to watch for is tooth wear, but that's more of a problem in an aging dog, and even then you can grind the RMB's up to help a dog in that situation.
Joe Bryant said:
Treats. Any problem "mixing" the BARF diet with a "normal" dog diet like in say giving them a milk bone type treat sometimes? Or are you better sticking 100% to the BARF
See above. If it's truly a sometime occurrence, the answer is "no", there's no real problem. As a practical matter in my house though, treats tend to be gotten whenever she "looks cute" or has "been good" or is begging, etc., so it became a problem that we just decided to eliminate completely. I came to call Milk Bone treats "Doggy Doritos", which I think is a pretty accurate nutritional picture. In a more general matter, what I've read is that your dog on a biological level digests kibble and similarly styled treats in a different way than he does raw food (hence the adjustment period for some dogs), which means that it's best to do all one diet or all the other. Definitely don't feed kibble on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays, and raw the rest of the week or something like that. Do all one or all the other. Otherwise you're putting stress on the digestive tract and your dog could develop problems.
Joe Bryant said:
Lastly a philisophical angle I guess. I agree that this style of diet would mimic the diet a dog 25,000 years ago would eat. Or a wild dog today. I agree that a dog isn't going to normally eat much rice or grains outside of what he might find in the stomach of an antelope. Compared to the fancy grains in today's premium foods.But my question is: Is that better? I mean, dogs 25,000 years ago didn't have rabies shots either. Or parvo vaccinations. Maybe it gets into a "God's design" thing (or not if you don't believe in God) but is the way that dog operated 25,000 years ago, necessarily the best way? Does that make sense? Maybe the average dog 25,000 years ago only lived 4 years. But if he'd had Alpo kibble to eat instead of antelopes, he's have lived 12 years? See what I mean? I don't have the answer. I'm just asking the question. It's sort of the same thing with the Paleo Diet for humans. They propose that Man wasn't intended to eat farmed grains becauase farmed grains are relatively new. Well maybe he's better off with farmed grains. I dunno.
A well-balanced raw diet is better than what a dog probably have had in the wild eons ago because of that balance and regularity, especially supplements. In essence what you're doing is optimizing a system that clearly must be the best way for the dog to operate biologically and nutritionally rather than truly mimic the hit and miss dietary lifestyle of a wild, scavenging dog. That's one of the reasons I don't go overboard with trying to mimic a "true" diet as a wild dog had it. Interesting that you bring up rabies shots - now that rabies has become virtually non-existent in America as a practical matter (for example, my vet told me that there hasn't been a recorded case of rabies in LA County in 100 years), people are aggressively beginning to question whether the stress to the body and the immune system that the shots and boosters cause is worth the benefit. As with surgery, it's great in an emergency (if rabies were rampant and a great danger) but nobody wants to undergo it if they can avoid it. I hope that answers your questions.
Thanks redman. I'm going to check out some availability options for stuff and see here. I'm thinking of switching over to this very seriously. I'm sure I'll have some questions and I'll holler again if that's ok.J
 
Anytime. If anyone else wants to ask questions go ahead and do it; may as well keep it in this thread.

Let me emphasize, there are people out there who are far better informed and have a much deeper knowledge of this than I do. I just learned what I thought I needed to do it competently, and have augmented my knowledge over time as needed.

I'd encourage you to use me as a starting point, but definitely to also go and read up on other sources.

 
One more redman.

On the "streamlining" thing.

Are the chicken backs, livers and ground beef all frozen when you buy?

Can you describe how it goes from the co-op to the freezer to the refrigerator?

I'm good with the refrigerator to the dog bowl you have above. Thanks.

J

 
I applaud Redman's efforts on this, but I want to say that if you can't go the raw meat route when feeding your dog, at least pony up the cash for some good dog food. And by good I mean the kind you cannot get from the grocery store. Avoid dog foods that have a lot of filler, especially corn as it can be difficult to digest for dogs. Make sure the first ingredient is meat and not a grain or corn.

 
One more redman.On the "streamlining" thing.Are the chicken backs, livers and ground beef all frozen when you buy?Can you describe how it goes from the co-op to the freezer to the refrigerator?I'm good with the refrigerator to the dog bowl you have above. Thanks.J
The stuff I buy is all frozen, so it needs to be thawed, meaning that when I get them I literally have a 40 lb. block of frozen chicken backs inside a plastic bag which in turn is inside a cardboard box. I have a big stainless steel wash basin (the kind that's good to cool beer and sodas in during outdoor BBQ's) that I that I put the chicken backs in, and within 24-48 hours I go and use tongs to put them into the freezer bags. The chicken livers I get are also in bags, so I just remove the bags from the box and place them into those storage containers (which I already know they'll fit perfectly into when thawed) and leave them out overnight to thaw, before putting a lid on them and putting them into the fridge. The hamburger patties are purchased frozen in a 10 lb. case, and I divide them up while still frozen into 3 freezer bags, and I first thaw and then use the patties in the bag that's only partially filled. The way that the co-op works is that they have a central freezer that they rent space in and to which the meat companies deliver the goods directly on palates. Workers break these down and then give them each month to drivers assigned to deliver these loads to designated pick-up points all over SoCal - I'm fortunate in that mine's located only a 5 minute drive away from my house. Each person's order is then sorted at the site and they come pick it up.EDIT- in case it's not already clear, I put every container that I'm not going to immediately use into the freezer and then remove each container, one at a time, as I later need to thaw and use it. After shipments, I can have as much as 60 lbs. of meat in my freezer.
 
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I applaud Redman's efforts on this, but I want to say that if you can't go the raw meat route when feeding your dog, at least pony up the cash for some good dog food. And by good I mean the kind you cannot get from the grocery store. Avoid dog foods that have a lot of filler, especially corn as it can be difficult to digest for dogs. Make sure the first ingredient is meat and not a grain or corn.
Agreed. While my criticisms apply to all kibble in general, some kibble is far healthier than other kibble for your dog. At the low end there are 40 lb. bags of kibble that you can buy in some places for as little as $10, but that's made from about as low grade of a set of materials as you can get. If you care at all for your dog you'll never buy that stuff. Generally, price is a decent guage for quality here, but you should read up on the higher end stuff to find what's best.

No kibble, however, is as good for your dog as a well balanced raw diet is. It takes time and effort to learn and do it, and it costs a little more money, but you will notice a difference in your dog's health, smell, and overall appearance. There are even some who think that you will end up saving money during the second half of your dog's life on the vet bills that you won't be paying due to chronic medical problems, but I've never seen any substantial support for this argument as much as I'd like to believe it.

 
The thing that I've wondered about with the raw diet stems from watching a friend who does this feed the dog. It sounds as if you feed the dog out in the garage and not in the house which may or may not eliminate my concern but I'll present it anyhow. My friend feeds her dogs the raw chicken pieces, etc. right in the middle of their kitchen. Promptly after the dog gets its food it is dragging pieces of it out onto the floor or elsewhere to eat, spreading salmonella or other bacteria around the house. It just doesn't seem very sanitary considering that many dogs act like this one and the food just doesn't stay in the bowl but instead gets slopped all over or drug around the house. I just wouldn't want the dog dragging a chicken back into the corner of the living room where it can devour its "kill" and then having the children decide to play in that spot later. You may be very careful with being sanitary with the food, but your dog sure isn't. Do you eliminate this by feeding in the garage or is this just not a concern of yours. Even in the garage I'm not sure I want raw chicken being dragged around.

 
The thing that I've wondered about with the raw diet stems from watching a friend who does this feed the dog. It sounds as if you feed the dog out in the garage and not in the house which may or may not eliminate my concern but I'll present it anyhow. My friend feeds her dogs the raw chicken pieces, etc. right in the middle of their kitchen. Promptly after the dog gets its food it is dragging pieces of it out onto the floor or elsewhere to eat, spreading salmonella or other bacteria around the house. It just doesn't seem very sanitary considering that many dogs act like this one and the food just doesn't stay in the bowl but instead gets slopped all over or drug around the house. I just wouldn't want the dog dragging a chicken back into the corner of the living room where it can devour its "kill" and then having the children decide to play in that spot later. You may be very careful with being sanitary with the food, but your dog sure isn't. Do you eliminate this by feeding in the garage or is this just not a concern of yours. Even in the garage I'm not sure I want raw chicken being dragged around.
I agree with you. Your friend is weird and unsanitary, to be quite blunt. I merely prepare the food in my garage where everything is, but I feed my dog in the middle of my yard, placing the bowl on the grass. I don't even put it on cement because I don't want there to be greasy cement. My dog does tend to (very gingerly, it's funny to watch) pull her chicken backs out one at a time and placing them on the grass around the bowl before inspecting everything and deciding what she wants to eat first. But you'll also notice that your dog will eat its raw meals far more slowly than they do kibble. My parents' lab will inhale its meal of kibble in 45 seconds, literally; Molly will take 4-6 minutes to eat her food, and you can hear her crunching away on the chicken bones, breaking them up before swallowing them. As with any raw meat that you prepare, I always wash my hands immediately after handling it. Doing things this way ensures that there's no more danger from bacteria doing this than there would be BBQ'ing chicken on the grill or something.
 
One more redman.On the "streamlining" thing.Are the chicken backs, livers and ground beef all frozen when you buy?Can you describe how it goes from the co-op to the freezer to the refrigerator?I'm good with the refrigerator to the dog bowl you have above. Thanks.J
The stuff I buy is all frozen, so it needs to be thawed, meaning that when I get them I literally have a 40 lb. block of frozen chicken backs inside a plastic bag which in turn is inside a cardboard box. I have a big stainless steel wash basin (the kind that's good to cool beer and sodas in during outdoor BBQ's) that I that I put the chicken backs in, and within 24-48 hours I go and use tongs to put them into the freezer bags. The chicken livers I get are also in bags, so I just remove the bags from the box and place them into those storage containers (which I already know they'll fit perfectly into when thawed) and leave them out overnight to thaw, before putting a lid on them and putting them into the fridge. The hamburger patties are purchased frozen in a 10 lb. case, and I divide them up while still frozen into 3 freezer bags, and I first thaw and then use the patties in the bag that's only partially filled. The way that the co-op works is that they have a central freezer that they rent space in and to which the meat companies deliver the goods directly on palates. Workers break these down and then give them each month to drivers assigned to deliver these loads to designated pick-up points all over SoCal - I'm fortunate in that mine's located only a 5 minute drive away from my house. Each person's order is then sorted at the site and they come pick it up.EDIT- in case it's not already clear, I put every container that I'm not going to immediately use into the freezer and then remove each container, one at a time, as I later need to thaw and use it. After shipments, I can have as much as 60 lbs. of meat in my freezer.
So for the chicken backs, you thaw and then divide them up into 1 gallon freezer bags?What's the thinking there, to have like a week's worth in a bag or so?Same for chicken livers?And then most of the bags go to the freezer and 1 bag stays in the refrigerator?Isn't there something weird about thawing, then refreezing meat?J
 
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So for the chicken backs, you thaw and then divide them up into 1 gallon freezer bags?What's the thinking there, to have like a week's worth in a bag or so?Same for chicken livers?And then most of the bags go to the freezer and 1 bag stays in the refrigerator?Isn't there something weird about thawing, then refreezing meat?J
Yes, I thaw and then refreeze 6 of the bags, and the 7th I refrigerate and feed her from that bag immediately during the ensuing week (assuming I don't still have some chicken backs from a prior delivery). And it does come out to a week or so of food per bag for me. It's only weird if you're using human standards - I would not do things this way to feed a person. Like I said though, the rules regarding bacteria and spoliation of food are different for dogs, so it's all the same for them. Towards the end of the week the chicken can certainly start to smell a bit funky. :) I promise you though, you won't be making your dog sick by doing things this way as long as you're of course replacing the food in the fridge. If this becomes a special concern for you, you can always place less chicken in each bag rather than filling it to capacity, which means that you'll only be refrigerating each bag for a shorter period of time before your dog has consumed all the chicken. .
 
So for the chicken backs, you thaw and then divide them up into 1 gallon freezer bags?What's the thinking there, to have like a week's worth in a bag or so?Same for chicken livers?And then most of the bags go to the freezer and 1 bag stays in the refrigerator?Isn't there something weird about thawing, then refreezing meat?J
Yes, I thaw and then refreeze 6 of the bags, and the 7th I refrigerate and feed her from that bag immediately during the ensuing week (assuming I don't still have some chicken backs from a prior delivery). And it does come out to a week or so of food per bag for me. It's only weird if you're using human standards - I would not do things this way to feed a person. Like I said though, the rules regarding bacteria and spoliation of food are different for dogs, so it's all the same for them. Towards the end of the week the chicken can certainly start to smell a bit funky. :) I promise you though, you won't be making your dog sick by doing things this way as long as you're of course replacing the food in the fridge. If this becomes a special concern for you, you can always place less chicken in each bag rather than filling it to capacity, which means that you'll only be refrigerating each bag for a shorter period of time before your dog has consumed all the chicken. .
Thanks. I think I understand the process now. And you're right, thawing and freezing may not be good for me but neither is eating raw chicken livers... Your system makes sense to me now. I'm going to search around and see if I can find a good source for the chicken. I'm sure Sams has the burger patties fine. There is a good local butcher close to me that prepares a ton of chicken. I bet I could work something out with them.J
 
So for the chicken backs, you thaw and then divide them up into 1 gallon freezer bags?What's the thinking there, to have like a week's worth in a bag or so?Same for chicken livers?And then most of the bags go to the freezer and 1 bag stays in the refrigerator?Isn't there something weird about thawing, then refreezing meat?J
Yes, I thaw and then refreeze 6 of the bags, and the 7th I refrigerate and feed her from that bag immediately during the ensuing week (assuming I don't still have some chicken backs from a prior delivery). And it does come out to a week or so of food per bag for me. It's only weird if you're using human standards - I would not do things this way to feed a person. Like I said though, the rules regarding bacteria and spoliation of food are different for dogs, so it's all the same for them. Towards the end of the week the chicken can certainly start to smell a bit funky. :) I promise you though, you won't be making your dog sick by doing things this way as long as you're of course replacing the food in the fridge. If this becomes a special concern for you, you can always place less chicken in each bag rather than filling it to capacity, which means that you'll only be refrigerating each bag for a shorter period of time before your dog has consumed all the chicken. .
Thanks. I think I understand the process now. And you're right, thawing and freezing may not be good for me but neither is eating raw chicken livers... Your system makes sense to me now. I'm going to search around and see if I can find a good source for the chicken. I'm sure Sams has the burger patties fine. There is a good local butcher close to me that prepares a ton of chicken. I bet I could work something out with them.J
Finding a distributor was something I thought would be difficult, as one of the other people in this thread considering feeding my dog raw food, but after a quick internet search I found a raw dog food distibutor about 20 blocks from my house. They have every type of chicken and turkey part imaginable and they also have many different kinds of meat and veggie mixtures done up in bulk or one pound serving sizes. This might be much easier than I thought.
 
So for the chicken backs, you thaw and then divide them up into 1 gallon freezer bags?What's the thinking there, to have like a week's worth in a bag or so?Same for chicken livers?And then most of the bags go to the freezer and 1 bag stays in the refrigerator?Isn't there something weird about thawing, then refreezing meat?J
Yes, I thaw and then refreeze 6 of the bags, and the 7th I refrigerate and feed her from that bag immediately during the ensuing week (assuming I don't still have some chicken backs from a prior delivery). And it does come out to a week or so of food per bag for me. It's only weird if you're using human standards - I would not do things this way to feed a person. Like I said though, the rules regarding bacteria and spoliation of food are different for dogs, so it's all the same for them. Towards the end of the week the chicken can certainly start to smell a bit funky. :) I promise you though, you won't be making your dog sick by doing things this way as long as you're of course replacing the food in the fridge. If this becomes a special concern for you, you can always place less chicken in each bag rather than filling it to capacity, which means that you'll only be refrigerating each bag for a shorter period of time before your dog has consumed all the chicken. .
Thanks. I think I understand the process now. And you're right, thawing and freezing may not be good for me but neither is eating raw chicken livers... Your system makes sense to me now. I'm going to search around and see if I can find a good source for the chicken. I'm sure Sams has the burger patties fine. There is a good local butcher close to me that prepares a ton of chicken. I bet I could work something out with them.J
Finding a distributor was something I thought would be difficult, as one of the other people in this thread considering feeding my dog raw food, but after a quick internet search I found a raw dog food distibutor about 20 blocks from my house. They have every type of chicken and turkey part imaginable and they also have many different kinds of meat and veggie mixtures done up in bulk or one pound serving sizes. This might be much easier than I thought.
Thanks. Any tips on searching there? J
 
When I've forgotten to timely place my order with the co-op and I need chicken backs, there's a specialty butcher in the next town over who I can buy them from, though they're unsplit and with the necks still attached.

Many chain supermarkets nowadays don't literally do any butchering onsite anymore; their "butchers" simply divide up shipments that are already butchered, perhaps separate some racks of ribs or something lightweight, and then place their stuff on display. That's why I'd suggest looking for true meat markets or even restaurant wholesalers - you'll probably spend less there anyway.

 
Not sure about their prices, since I didn't sign up for the site, but a Yahoo Group in MI buys in bulk from this website:

http://www.taylorpondfarms.com/

They also sell straight to individuals, from what I can tell, although I'd expect groups to get better pricing.

 
Going back to Joe's question about snacks, I just happened across 2.5 lbs. of pork necks for $.99/lb today at the supermarket, so I bought them for my dog for snacks.

There are 5 neck portions with lots of meat on them, so that's $.50/snack with lots of good stuff for her to gnaw on; to contrast, at my local pet store that would buy me 2.5 pigs ears, which aren't nearly as good for her, fun to eat or as big.

That's an example of what you can do for your dog using what you learn with this raw diet.

 
I give my Labs frozen blueberries as treats when they come into the house. Now they walk right to the freezer.

 
Ok Redman,

I think I'm ready to try this. My local butcher processes a lot of chickens and he was glad to save the chicken backs for me. He said he'd have 10 pounds of them every few days or so and that will be way more than I need.

The other stuff is easy enough to find.

To make sure I'm doing this correctly.

Bear is a 6 month old Golden Retreiver. I'd expect his full grown weight to be about 75-80 pounds. (let's say 75)

Are you saying do the calcs with his full grown weight?

You think 3% is a good place to start for percentages for a pup like mine?

Using 75 pounds and 3% that's 2.25 pounds or 36 oz.

With the 60/25/15 ratio that works out to a daily feeding:

RBM - chicken backs: 21.6 oz

Muscle meat - ground beef: 9 oz

Organ meat - chicken livers: 5.4 oz

That sound right?

I am worried a little about the transition. He's never had any table scraps at all so this is going to be quite a change from kibble.

As you say above, you think I should start first with all chicken backs and then introduce the muscle meat and then organ meat?

I gave him two chicken backs last night and he did fine with them. He didn't go nuts and was pretty calm picking them up and crunching them down. Took him about 3 minutes. He liked them.

Any more thoughts? Thanks.

J

 
Ok Redman,I think I'm ready to try this. My local butcher processes a lot of chickens and he was glad to save the chicken backs for me. He said he'd have 10 pounds of them every few days or so and that will be way more than I need. The other stuff is easy enough to find.To make sure I'm doing this correctly.Bear is a 6 month old Golden Retreiver. I'd expect his full grown weight to be about 75-80 pounds. (let's say 75)Are you saying do the calcs with his full grown weight?You think 3% is a good place to start for percentages for a pup like mine?Using 75 pounds and 3% that's 2.25 pounds or 36 oz.With the 60/25/15 ratio that works out to a daily feeding:RBM - chicken backs: 21.6 ozMuscle meat - ground beef: 9 ozOrgan meat - chicken livers: 5.4 ozThat sound right?I am worried a little about the transition. He's never had any table scraps at all so this is going to be quite a change from kibble.As you say above, you think I should start first with all chicken backs and then introduce the muscle meat and then organ meat?I gave him two chicken backs last night and he did fine with them. He didn't go nuts and was pretty calm picking them up and crunching them down. Took him about 3 minutes. He liked them. Any more thoughts? Thanks.J
You're doing it right, and your calculations are correct. Some people think that it's better for puppies to have more but smaller meals, so consider halving those portions and feeding him both in the morning and in the evening; you can change that if you would like to one meal per day when he reaches a year or so. Give him 2.25 lbs. per day of chicken backs for a week or so, monitoring him for chewing properly (which it both sounds like you're doing and he's doing fine) and also for any digestive problems. As a pup, he's going to adapt better to this diet than an older dog would all other things being equal. I'd also look for anything unusual - I mentioned my dog was allergic to turkey, but I only discovered that by watching her itch and realizing that that was unusual as her stools and appetite were fine. I actually removed and restarted turkey in her diet two more times before I satisfied myself that that was an allergic reaction I was seeing; if you are in doubt your vet can run allergy tests for you. Chicken, fortunately, is fine for her though, and hopefully it will be for your dog too. If he's doing fine after a week, phase in first the muscle meat over a couple of weeks, and then the organ meat over an equivalent period of time; use the RMB's (chicken backs) to fill out the remainder of the diet, i.e. with only RMB's and muscle meat you'd feed a 75/25 ratio. The RMB's are the staple, so they're always the first component in and last component out of a diet. To the extent that those additional ingredients give him "the runs" or something, you can add canned pumpkin for fiber to the diet. The organ meat in particular is rich and can be known to cause problems in this regard. You can also temporarily increase the ratio of RMB's to the other things as the bone in the RMB's also help to firm up the stool. Diarrhea is not uncommon during the adjustment period and has been known to last as long as two weeks in some dogs upon introduction of a new component to the diet. My dog (begun at about six months like yours is) didn't have thatf but some do. Let them adjust but if it's more protracted or you're seeing other things that alarm you, you can take them to the vet. The change of diet has been known to reveal underlying medical problems sometimes too; in rare cases though a dog may need a special type of raw diet and cannot eat the standard one. Some dogs - mine was like this - may turn their nose up at certain ingredients in the diet, for example the chicken livers. If they do that, give them ten minutes to eat it and if they don't, pick up the bowl and don't feed them 'til the next meal. Discard the old livers. The dog will soon learn that "beggars can't be choosers" and will begin to eat them soon enough. I've battled with my dog over new items in her food (even chicken backs from another vendor that were cut differently - Molly can be very picky!) before she finally would start to eat them. Also, it's not unusual for some dogs to skip a meal or even two. Mine, again, has done this although I think in hindsight it was mostly because we were overfeeding her. Don't panic. As with the pickiness problem above, always remember that a dog will eat a perfectly healthy meal (even one with ingredients that aren't its favorite) long before it will starve itself. Dogs are very pragmatic about that and are known to test you on this, and as I said above a dog doesn't need a variety of tastes in its diet the way that people do. Now, your new assignment is to report back on your new fascination with non-smelly poop in your yard that turns white within 48 hours and begins to crumble into the grass. I'm being serious. :)One final thought on vets: find a vet in your area that understands raw feeding and is supportive of it as not all are for a variety of reasons. Make sure your vet knows about the diet so that she/he can support you in caring for your dog. Some people like for blood work to be done as a screen every year during the annual checkup to help ensure that the dog is not vitamin deficient or otherwise lacking nutritionally.
 
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Why would I want to go through all of this trouble over feeding my dog?

I'm seriously curious about this.
The most concise summary of the benefits are here:
Teeth & Breath

Your pet will have much-improved breath, no tartar and beautifully clean teeth. All without having to visit the pet dentist or brush the teeth.

Skin & Coat

This can be one of the first changes you will notice when you start feeding Dr. Billinghurst's BARF DIET™. If those persistent skin problems suddenly disappear or improve, and you no longer need vet visits, medicated washes, antibiotics, cortisone shots and cortisone tablets, it has to mean something. It really is hard to ignore the deeply colored, lustrous, thick and healthy coat!

Immune System

Dr. Billinghurst's BARF DIET™ normalizes and strengthens the immune system. Because BARF contains a good balance of essential fatty acids and other immune normalizing and strengthening nutrients, it reduces inflammatory conditions and waves good-bye to infections.

Degenerative Disease

Pet owners that switch their older pets to Billinghurst's BARF DIET™ usually find that whatever degenerative disease their pet has contracted, becomes less of a problem.

Stool Volume & Odor

Once again this reflects the improved health of the immune system and the remarkable difference that bone eating makes in the production of firm stools which are essential for normal anal sac emptying.

Arthritis

After a few months you can expect to see much greater mobility in your pet. This is part of the reason so many older pets have a new lease on life when switched to Dr. Billinghurst's BARF DIET™.

Lean Body Mass

By feeding Billinghurst's BARF DIET™, your pet will lose unwanted fat and gain that much desired increase in muscle mass. This not only makes your pet look better, it increases your pet’s metabolic rate, its activity levels and its healthy life-span. The effect will be more rapid if you combine Dr. Billinghurst's BARF DIET™ with some normal exercise.
*BARF stands for "Bones and Raw Food".This is pimping a particular guy's, Billinghurst's products, but you get the idea. I agree with all of this stuff.

Essentially, your question in human terms would be why would I want to take the time to prepare a healthy meal at home when I have a McDonald's drive-thru right down the street? To me, my dog is worth it and the effort is not all that bad. Others may have a different view, and I'm not here to criticize them, but for me the benefits are obvious.

 
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Still don't get it but kudos to those of you that do this sort of thing.

With my luck, I'd waste a bunch of time, money, and energy on this for 6 months and then my wife would run over the damn dog in the driveway.

 
Ok Redman,I think I'm ready to try this. My local butcher processes a lot of chickens and he was glad to save the chicken backs for me. He said he'd have 10 pounds of them every few days or so and that will be way more than I need. The other stuff is easy enough to find.To make sure I'm doing this correctly.Bear is a 6 month old Golden Retreiver. I'd expect his full grown weight to be about 75-80 pounds. (let's say 75)Are you saying do the calcs with his full grown weight?You think 3% is a good place to start for percentages for a pup like mine?Using 75 pounds and 3% that's 2.25 pounds or 36 oz.With the 60/25/15 ratio that works out to a daily feeding:RBM - chicken backs: 21.6 ozMuscle meat - ground beef: 9 ozOrgan meat - chicken livers: 5.4 ozThat sound right?I am worried a little about the transition. He's never had any table scraps at all so this is going to be quite a change from kibble.As you say above, you think I should start first with all chicken backs and then introduce the muscle meat and then organ meat?I gave him two chicken backs last night and he did fine with them. He didn't go nuts and was pretty calm picking them up and crunching them down. Took him about 3 minutes. He liked them. Any more thoughts? Thanks.J
You're doing it right, and your calculations are correct. Some people think that it's better for puppies to have more but smaller meals, so consider halving those portions and feeding him both in the morning and in the evening; you can change that if you would like to one meal per day when he reaches a year or so. Give him 2.25 lbs. per day of chicken backs for a week or so, monitoring him for chewing properly (which it both sounds like you're doing and he's doing fine) and also for any digestive problems. As a pup, he's going to adapt better to this diet than an older dog would all other things being equal. I'd also look for anything unusual - I mentioned my dog was allergic to turkey, but I only discovered that by watching her itch and realizing that that was unusual as her stools and appetite were fine. I actually removed and restarted turkey in her diet two more times before I satisfied myself that that was an allergic reaction I was seeing; if you are in doubt your vet can run allergy tests for you. Chicken, fortunately, is fine for her though, and hopefully it will be for your dog too. If he's doing fine after a week, phase in first the muscle meat over a couple of weeks, and then the organ meat over an equivalent period of time; use the RMB's (chicken backs) to fill out the remainder of the diet, i.e. with only RMB's and muscle meat you'd feed a 75/25 ratio. The RMB's are the staple, so they're always the first component in and last component out of a diet. To the extent that those additional ingredients give him "the runs" or something, you can add canned pumpkin for fiber to the diet. The organ meat in particular is rich and can be known to cause problems in this regard. You can also temporarily increase the ratio of RMB's to the other things as the bone in the RMB's also help to firm up the stool. Diarrhea is not uncommon during the adjustment period and has been known to last as long as two weeks in some dogs upon introduction of a new component to the diet. My dog (begun at about six months like yours is) didn't have thatf but some do. Let them adjust but if it's more protracted or you're seeing other things that alarm you, you can take them to the vet. The change of diet has been known to reveal underlying medical problems sometimes too; in rare cases though a dog may need a special type of raw diet and cannot eat the standard one. Some dogs - mine was like this - may turn their nose up at certain ingredients in the diet, for example the chicken livers. If they do that, give them ten minutes to eat it and if they don't, pick up the bowl and don't feed them 'til the next meal. Discard the old livers. The dog will soon learn that "beggars can't be choosers" and will begin to eat them soon enough. I've battled with my dog over new items in her food (even chicken backs from another vendor that were cut differently - Molly can be very picky!) before she finally would start to eat them. Also, it's not unusual for some dogs to skip a meal or even two. Mine, again, has done this although I think in hindsight it was mostly because we were overfeeding her. Don't panic. As with the pickiness problem above, always remember that a dog will eat a perfectly healthy meal (even one with ingredients that aren't its favorite) long before it will starve itself. Dogs are very pragmatic about that and are known to test you on this, and as I said above a dog doesn't need a variety of tastes in its diet the way that people do. Now, your new assignment is to report back on your new fascination with non-smelly poop in your yard that turns white within 48 hours and begins to crumble into the grass. I'm being serious. :)One final thought on vets: find a vet in your area that understands raw feeding and is supportive of it as not all are for a variety of reasons. Make sure your vet knows about the diet so that she/he can support you in caring for your dog. Some people like for blood work to be done as a screen every year during the annual checkup to help ensure that the dog is not vitamin deficient or otherwise lacking nutritionally.
Thanks Redman.I'll give this a shot and let you know.FWIW, he's a pretty smart dog. Tonight when I got the different bowl out (the one that I used last night for the chicken backs) he started going nuts. He loves the chicken backs. Chomped two down tonight pretty easily. He chews the for a minute and then crunches them up and down they go. So far so good. I'll let you know how it goes.J
 

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