Super Bowl LVII ****Kansas City vs Philadelphia**** KC 38...PHI 35 Chiefs are World Champions!!! (3 Viewers)

[Hot Sauce Guy]

some of you could come over to my house, have some beers and food.

Sounds lovely

 

[unckeyherb]

This is not sour grapes; the Eagles deserved to lose. But the holding call at the end of the game was a ****ing travesty. The refs set the tempo of what they would or would not call for the entire game and there NO flags in the second half. To throw a flag at that moment on such a ticky tack foul when they were not all game was just ****ed. I think we absolutely could have gone the field with 1:45 left and kicked a FG or maybe even scored a TD. But here's the thing, if we get the ball and the Eagles go 3 and out, okay. We had a shot and the Chiefs D did their job. I can swallow that loss. This loss I can't. They basically took away any chance for the Eagles to mount one last drive and put it on the defense to stop us. It was beyond egregious..

Both teams had a drive eliminated by the officiating and the Chiefs drive was more egregious. It was just in the 1st half and they won, so hardly anyone is talking about it.

Some great/classic ending was all we were robbed of, but the call was a 60/40 call that gets made more often than not throughout the season.

It's a big moment for the officials also and they actually start to see things as slower than normal due to their own adrenaline. I'm sure that hold looked bigger than **** to the ref who threw the flag. I'm sorry, but the human nature of subjective fouls (like defensive holding) lends itself to this kind of call in a huge moment because officials are humans with emotions and adrenaline as well. It's the biggest game of their careers, so just like a player who may slightly miss a throw/catch/shot, etc. because they are too excited or caught up in the moment, a ref can miss a call because they are too excited. I'm sure in retrospect after watching film he wishes he'd let it go, but it was a justifiable penalty and he saw enough at the time to throw the flag. He likely asked the sideline official and back judge what they thought here, but if no one took him off it he had enough to stick with the call.

It's not egregious or a travesty, its just an unfortunate case of humanity in a game played and officiated by humans.

I think the thing that too many people forget is that the officials are part of the humanity of sports. They aren't a faceless robot with no skin in the game, but humans doing their very best (at least the majority of the time and certainly at this level). To err is human and all....

I get it, but honestly, they let them play all game long, setting a precedent for what is and isn't allowed. Again there were no flags thrown in the second half although that level of contact was happening all game. In the biggest moment, when a 3rd down conversion basically ends the game they decided to throw a towel at an EXTREMELY ticky tack play that had no effect on the play. These guys should have some situational awareness. FWIW, that was a late-*** flag too.

No effect on the play? He held the very guy Mahomes threw too. IMO it was late because they only called it because the hold had a direct impact on the play.

Also, “EXTREMELY ticky tack”? He had a fistful of jersey and held him twice. If he didn’t hold him he would have dusted the defender and been to the wide open spot Mahomes threw to.


ETA - I totally understand your frustration and I would normally be sympathetic but I’ve had my heart broken in similar fashion so many times I can’t be.

https://twitter.com/footballzebras/status/1624971786470281223?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1624971786470281223%7Ctwgr%5E1615ced9b38bb5ccd5d843b9f1cc640dbf341c5b%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sbnation.com%2Fnfl%2F2023%2F2%2F12%2F23597193%2Fsuper-bowl-holding-penalty-video-chiefs-eagles-2023

You explain to me where he had a fistful of jersey and held him twice. And no, he wouldn't have dusted the defender.

You’re using an interesting clip.

Here’s a full breakdown. It’s clearly and obviously a hold.

To those arguing “well they don’t always call that” - I’ve agreed with y’all.

But the take that it’s not even a penalty based on a selective camera angle is ice cold.

I'm not saying its "not a penalty" I'm responding to the notion that it materially impacted the play so much that the WR would have dusted the defender if not for the contact. I stand by that. What I REALLY had a problem with is that this contact wasn't call all game...until it was. Whatever, I've said five times that its not why the Eagles lost. I just have an issue with the Super Bowl ending because of a penalty that was being let go for 59 previous minutes. It is what it is, but it sucks.

 

[Steelers4Life]

Was it a penalty? Sure, a ticky tack one. No one can realistically dispute that when Bradburry himself says he did it. The problem is that it went on during just about every play and wasn't called the entire game UNTIL that play. It was the only holding call of the game... do people really think it was the only time anyone held? That's what makes it terrible to me. If they had set the tone that they'd have a tight whistle, fine. But it wasn't.

There's a reason JuJu didn't complain at ALL when the ball fell incomplete but went nuts earlier in the game when he knew he had been held on a crossing pattern. It was a slight tug on the jersey and some hand checking before that, but JuJu's momentum wasn't slowed down and the direction he was running wasn't impacted. Mahomes threw the ball towards the pile on and JuJu ran it farther inside... that's the reason it didn't look especially close at the end.

Chiefs fans will say it would've been an easy completion if not for the hold, but that's not what the video shows. It's convenient to think that though, and in the end it doesn't really matter.

As a football fan, it was a truly terrible way for such a great game to end. It doesn't feel like the players decided it.

Watch this video. It was not ticky tack. It’s a penalty. And not even a subtle penalty.

How Bradberry holding penalty changed final minutes

Mike Florio and Chris Simms explain why James Bradberry’s holding penalty was the right call and why it doesn’t matter that the ball was uncatchable, because it wasn’t pass interference.

www.nbcsports.com

Look, there are reputable people who look at the exact same video and have said otherwise, but I'm not going to post videosIt's not a debate worth having because what's done is done.

I never said it wasn't a penalty by the letter of the law. You can debate if it had an impact on him or not, but the pass doesn't have to be catchable on a holding call like it would have for DPI.

But, people act like without the hold, JuJu catches an easy TD and that's crazy. He wasn't running to where the ball was thrown at any point and Bradbury didn't grab him nearly in a way that changed his direction. If he had, JuJu would've gone nuts after the play. But, he gave NO reaction at all. None. Just turned and started walking back to the bench... that's not the reaction of a guy who felt like he'd be impeded.

And again... the BIGGEST point in all of this is that the inconsistency of holding not being called the ENTIRE game and then being called on THAT play is what drives most people crazy. If it wasn't called in the first 58 minutes, it shouldn't have been called then either.

 

[efactor]

But anyone that can look at JuJu's stride and direction and think anything Bradbury did had an impact on it isn't paying attention. JuJu ran to the wrong spot and slowed down when he had to look back over his shoulder and adjust at the end.

I was paying rapt attention, thanks.

It’s obvious that Juju was beating Bradberry, and Bradberry grabbed his jersey, which stretched & slowed down Juju’s break for the play.

It very obviously impeded his motion. Cmon.

No, it actually wasn't obvious at all

 

[Dr. Octopus]

But anyone that can look at JuJu's stride and direction and think anything Bradbury did had an impact on it isn't paying attention.

If you say so.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

This is not sour grapes; the Eagles deserved to lose. But the holding call at the end of the game was a ****ing travesty. The refs set the tempo of what they would or would not call for the entire game and there NO flags in the second half. To throw a flag at that moment on such a ticky tack foul when they were not all game was just ****ed. I think we absolutely could have gone the field with 1:45 left and kicked a FG or maybe even scored a TD. But here's the thing, if we get the ball and the Eagles go 3 and out, okay. We had a shot and the Chiefs D did their job. I can swallow that loss. This loss I can't. They basically took away any chance for the Eagles to mount one last drive and put it on the defense to stop us. It was beyond egregious..

Both teams had a drive eliminated by the officiating and the Chiefs drive was more egregious. It was just in the 1st half and they won, so hardly anyone is talking about it.

Some great/classic ending was all we were robbed of, but the call was a 60/40 call that gets made more often than not throughout the season.

It's a big moment for the officials also and they actually start to see things as slower than normal due to their own adrenaline. I'm sure that hold looked bigger than **** to the ref who threw the flag. I'm sorry, but the human nature of subjective fouls (like defensive holding) lends itself to this kind of call in a huge moment because officials are humans with emotions and adrenaline as well. It's the biggest game of their careers, so just like a player who may slightly miss a throw/catch/shot, etc. because they are too excited or caught up in the moment, a ref can miss a call because they are too excited. I'm sure in retrospect after watching film he wishes he'd let it go, but it was a justifiable penalty and he saw enough at the time to throw the flag. He likely asked the sideline official and back judge what they thought here, but if no one took him off it he had enough to stick with the call.

It's not egregious or a travesty, its just an unfortunate case of humanity in a game played and officiated by humans.

I think the thing that too many people forget is that the officials are part of the humanity of sports. They aren't a faceless robot with no skin in the game, but humans doing their very best (at least the majority of the time and certainly at this level). To err is human and all....

I get it, but honestly, they let them play all game long, setting a precedent for what is and isn't allowed. Again there were no flags thrown in the second half although that level of contact was happening all game. In the biggest moment, when a 3rd down conversion basically ends the game they decided to throw a towel at an EXTREMELY ticky tack play that had no effect on the play. These guys should have some situational awareness. FWIW, that was a late-*** flag too.

No effect on the play? He held the very guy Mahomes threw too. IMO it was late because they only called it because the hold had a direct impact on the play.

Also, “EXTREMELY ticky tack”? He had a fistful of jersey and held him twice. If he didn’t hold him he would have dusted the defender and been to the wide open spot Mahomes threw to.


ETA - I totally understand your frustration and I would normally be sympathetic but I’ve had my heart broken in similar fashion so many times I can’t be.

https://twitter.com/footballzebras/status/1624971786470281223?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1624971786470281223%7Ctwgr%5E1615ced9b38bb5ccd5d843b9f1cc640dbf341c5b%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sbnation.com%2Fnfl%2F2023%2F2%2F12%2F23597193%2Fsuper-bowl-holding-penalty-video-chiefs-eagles-2023

You explain to me where he had a fistful of jersey and held him twice. And no, he wouldn't have dusted the defender.

You’re using an interesting clip.

Here’s a full breakdown. It’s clearly and obviously a hold.

To those arguing “well they don’t always call that” - I’ve agreed with y’all.

But the take that it’s not even a penalty based on a selective camera angle is ice cold.

I'm not saying its "not a penalty" I'm responding to the notion that it materially impacted the play so much that the WR would have dusted the defender if not for the contact. I stand by that. What I REALLY had a problem with is that this contact wasn't call all game...until it was. Whatever, I've said five times that its not why the Eagles lost. I just have an issue with the Super Bowl ending because of a penalty that was being let go for 59 previous minutes. It is what it is, but it sucks.

We disagree a little but not enough to argue about it.


You bring up a bigger point….

In the NFLs quest for parity and close games they’ve positioned their sport for many more of these. What I mean is- When you’ve adjusted the rules to make the game into a whoever has the ball last you open the door for these single plays or penalties being a major factor of the outcome of games.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I just have an issue with the Super Bowl ending because of a penalty that was being let go for 59 previous minutes. It is what it is, but it sucks.

And I strongly disagree with that characterization of this. The game was extremely well officiated. There were penalties called in the game that were correct, and there were non-calls I thought were correct.

Had this been a horribly officiated game start to finish (like one of the Steelers SBs) maybe I’d be sympathetic to such an argument.

But I saw a tight game come down to the wire and an Eagles defender make a bad penalty at the worst time - and it got called.

Nothing nefarious, and as I said before, considering the ref’s angle, and player’s subsequent admission, this would be a whole lot more scandalous had the ref not made this call.

On review it is clearly a penalty. I see no evidence of prior calls that they let go in the game with this level of supporting evidence. Maybe you can dig that up and make a much better case for why they shouldn’t have called this one, but respectfully, short of that, I think your argument falls a little flat.

 

[Steelers4Life]

some of you could come over to my house, have some beers and food.

Was it a penalty? Sure, a ticky tack one. No one can realistically dispute that when Bradburry himself says he did it. The problem is that it went on during just about every play and wasn't called the entire game UNTIL that play. It was the only holding call of the game... do people really think it was the only time anyone held? That's what makes it terrible to me. If they had set the tone that they'd have a tight whistle, fine. But it wasn't.

There's a reason JuJu didn't complain at ALL when the ball fell incomplete but went nuts earlier in the game when he knew he had been held on a crossing pattern. It was a slight tug on the jersey and some hand checking before that, but JuJu's momentum wasn't slowed down and the direction he was running wasn't impacted. Mahomes threw the ball towards the pile on and JuJu ran it farther inside... that's the reason it didn't look especially close at the end.

Chiefs fans will say it would've been an easy completion if not for the hold, but that's not what the video shows. It's convenient to think that though, and in the end it doesn't really matter.

As a football fan, it was a truly terrible way for such a great game to end. It doesn't feel like the players decided it.

You guys must have a different replay in the state of Philadelphia.

I'm in Charlotte, from Pittsburgh, and a Steelers fan, don't know what replays in Philly show. I don't like or hate either team and had no rooting or betting interest. Honestly, I couldn't care less who won.

But anyone that can look at JuJu's stride and direction and think anything Bradbury did had an impact on it isn't paying attention. JuJu ran to the wrong spot and slowed down when he had to look back over his shoulder and adjust at the end.

It's the lack of consistency that's troubling. To have that be the only holding call of the entire game? C'mon now.

Chiefs fans should just own it... they got the benefit of a very ticky tack penalty that allowed them to ice the game and took Philly's chance to come back away. Maybe the Chiefs would have held the Eagles and won anyways. Wish we could've seen it... it was too good of a game to end like that.

I know man, I was just kidding a little. I agree with you for the most part. I understand everything you’re saying.

However-

Bradberry literally said that the refs were being very consistent. He admires fault.

I’m not sure there’s even an argument to be had here other than - should the NFL just swallow the whistle? If they do that, what will NFL defenders do knowing that? Actual murder?

Interesting that he said that. He took the questions and admitted it, and he was hoping they'd let it slide.

Why would he think that? Fact is, it was the only holding call of the entire game on either team.

Respectfully, I have no clue how that can be interpreted as consistent unless he feels there were no other holding penalties committed by anyone for the first 58 minutes. It happened a lot and they all went uncalled... until that play.

If you let them play for 58 minutes, you have to let them play for the last 2.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

But anyone that can look at JuJu's stride and direction and think anything Bradbury did had an impact on it isn't paying attention. JuJu ran to the wrong spot and slowed down when he had to look back over his shoulder and adjust at the end.

I was paying rapt attention, thanks.

It’s obvious that Juju was beating Bradberry, and Bradberry grabbed his jersey, which stretched & slowed down Juju’s break for the play.

It very obviously impeded his motion. Cmon.

No, it actually wasn't obvious at all

It’s totally obvious. Again, watch this breakdown, which shows the appropriate angles:

How Bradberry holding penalty changed final minutes

Mike Florio and Chris Simms explain why James Bradberry’s holding penalty was the right call and why it doesn’t matter that the ball was uncatchable, because it wasn’t pass interference.

www.nbcsports.com

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

If you let them play for 58 minutes, you have to let them play for the last 2.

All I need to see now is a video complication of all of those alleged non-calls and I’ll be square on your side of this debate.

It’s a strong allegation - should be easy to prove if it went down as folks are asserting.

 

[unckeyherb]

This is not sour grapes; the Eagles deserved to lose. But the holding call at the end of the game was a ****ing travesty. The refs set the tempo of what they would or would not call for the entire game and there NO flags in the second half. To throw a flag at that moment on such a ticky tack foul when they were not all game was just ****ed. I think we absolutely could have gone the field with 1:45 left and kicked a FG or maybe even scored a TD. But here's the thing, if we get the ball and the Eagles go 3 and out, okay. We had a shot and the Chiefs D did their job. I can swallow that loss. This loss I can't. They basically took away any chance for the Eagles to mount one last drive and put it on the defense to stop us. It was beyond egregious..

Both teams had a drive eliminated by the officiating and the Chiefs drive was more egregious. It was just in the 1st half and they won, so hardly anyone is talking about it.

Some great/classic ending was all we were robbed of, but the call was a 60/40 call that gets made more often than not throughout the season.

It's a big moment for the officials also and they actually start to see things as slower than normal due to their own adrenaline. I'm sure that hold looked bigger than **** to the ref who threw the flag. I'm sorry, but the human nature of subjective fouls (like defensive holding) lends itself to this kind of call in a huge moment because officials are humans with emotions and adrenaline as well. It's the biggest game of their careers, so just like a player who may slightly miss a throw/catch/shot, etc. because they are too excited or caught up in the moment, a ref can miss a call because they are too excited. I'm sure in retrospect after watching film he wishes he'd let it go, but it was a justifiable penalty and he saw enough at the time to throw the flag. He likely asked the sideline official and back judge what they thought here, but if no one took him off it he had enough to stick with the call.

It's not egregious or a travesty, its just an unfortunate case of humanity in a game played and officiated by humans.

I think the thing that too many people forget is that the officials are part of the humanity of sports. They aren't a faceless robot with no skin in the game, but humans doing their very best (at least the majority of the time and certainly at this level). To err is human and all....

I get it, but honestly, they let them play all game long, setting a precedent for what is and isn't allowed. Again there were no flags thrown in the second half although that level of contact was happening all game. In the biggest moment, when a 3rd down conversion basically ends the game they decided to throw a towel at an EXTREMELY ticky tack play that had no effect on the play. These guys should have some situational awareness. FWIW, that was a late-*** flag too.

No effect on the play? He held the very guy Mahomes threw too. IMO it was late because they only called it because the hold had a direct impact on the play.

Also, “EXTREMELY ticky tack”? He had a fistful of jersey and held him twice. If he didn’t hold him he would have dusted the defender and been to the wide open spot Mahomes threw to.


ETA - I totally understand your frustration and I would normally be sympathetic but I’ve had my heart broken in similar fashion so many times I can’t be.

https://twitter.com/footballzebras/status/1624971786470281223?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1624971786470281223%7Ctwgr%5E1615ced9b38bb5ccd5d843b9f1cc640dbf341c5b%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sbnation.com%2Fnfl%2F2023%2F2%2F12%2F23597193%2Fsuper-bowl-holding-penalty-video-chiefs-eagles-2023

You explain to me where he had a fistful of jersey and held him twice. And no, he wouldn't have dusted the defender.

You’re using an interesting clip.

Here’s a full breakdown. It’s clearly and obviously a hold.

To those arguing “well they don’t always call that” - I’ve agreed with y’all.

But the take that it’s not even a penalty based on a selective camera angle is ice cold.

I'm not saying its "not a penalty" I'm responding to the notion that it materially impacted the play so much that the WR would have dusted the defender if not for the contact. I stand by that. What I REALLY had a problem with is that this contact wasn't call all game...until it was. Whatever, I've said five times that its not why the Eagles lost. I just have an issue with the Super Bowl ending because of a penalty that was being let go for 59 previous minutes. It is what it is, but it sucks.

We disagree a little but not enough to argue about it.


You bring up a bigger point….

In the NFLs quest for parity and close games they’ve positioned their sport for many more of these. What I mean is- When you’ve adjusted the rules to make the game into a whoever has the ball last you open the door for these single plays or penalties being a major factor of the outcome of games.

agreed

 

[unckeyherb]

If you let them play for 58 minutes, you have to let them play for the last 2.

All I need to see now is a video complication of all of those alleged non-calls and I’ll be square on your side of this debate.

It’s a strong allegation - should be easy to prove if it went down as folks are asserting.

Well, its probably too early for that but here is the one that was Not called that was mentioned earlier. This seems more egregious than the contact made on the 3rd down play-he pulls his arm and twists his body as the ball is getting to him. There were others that I recall on both teams-nothing insane, just some contact. And to be clear that is fine-I prefer to let them play. I thought they called a good game for most of the game, just dropped the ball at the end. You're free to disagree.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

If you let them play for 58 minutes, you have to let them play for the last 2.

All I need to see now is a video complication of all of those alleged non-calls and I’ll be square on your side of this debate.

It’s a strong allegation - should be easy to prove if it went down as folks are asserting.

Well, its probably too early for that but here is the one that was Not called that was mentioned earlier. This seems more egregious than the contact made on the 3rd down play-he pulls his arm and twists his body as the ball is getting to him. There were others that I recall on both teams-nothing insane, just some contact. And to be clear that is fine-I prefer to let them play. I thought they called a good game for most of the game, just dropped the ball at the end. You're free to disagree.

I remember watching that in real time thinking Juju fell down and the defender didn’t pull him down so it was a good non-call for DPI. At the time I thought the official made the correct non-call.

But that’s not a holding penalty. Apples & oranges, and has nothing to do with Bradberry’s hold, which is clear on replay.

The penalties are judged differently. WR & defenders hand-fight all the time. I see nothing in the Juju replay you posted that shows any sort of holding, or that the defender interferes with/caused Juju to go to the ground. Also, Juju initiated the contact. lol

Strange example. Definitely doesn’t help prove or disprove anything about Bradberry’s hold.

 

[BassNBrew]

If your team is really better it should never come down to one call. Win the freaking game or go home

This isn't about which team should have won. I don't care who won. I don't like either team, i didn't bet anything, didn't have any pools or squares I was just watching a game.

There was a massive conflict of interest with 70 percent of the money coming in on the Bengals and eagles. Both games were competitive and both ended with ticky tack calls in the final drive that absolutely did decide the outcomes.

You can argue that the Bengals and eagles should have done more earlier to win the game but to me this isn't about sour grapes over who won. Lots of teams have benefitted from or been hurt by calls in the playoffs and I generally say what you said.

This was different. These weren't just big calls, they were both game-deciding calls, in both games, with enormous money on both sides. Calls that you don't expect to get made where they were. Whether you agree or disagree with the calls, or believe that the best team won, or even that the plays were penalties, is all irrelevant.

In back to bsck games, one person with a whistle made a judgement call and it decided the outcome in a way that won Vegas money. I don't have faith that the league will do anything to address the conduct of interest. And it has shaken my interest in the NFL going forward

Like most Pats Championships. **** happens.

This isn't about Fandom. This is about the NFL breaking decades of not having a team in Vegas or officially supporting gambling. That changed two years ago and we just watched billions of dollars decided on two end of game calls. Regardless of what you thought about the outcome that should be concerning.

No, it really shouldn't.

This has to be the most irrational I've seen you. It was a close call at the end of a tight game. Officiating is hard. That's it.

As somebody stated above both Vegas and the NFL have too much to lose should they engage in any nefarious activities. Risking the status quo just isn't worth it and, again, that probably should have been a no-call but it was a hold by definition of the rule so it's not like some horribly egregious call.

You don't think it's concerning.
That doesn't mean it's not concerning for anyone.

The NFL hurt their brand when they decided to embrace gambling. If you don't believe me, ask the NFL's own lawyers who said as much prior to the court decision that opened up sports gambling.

Was there some grand conspiracy? Probably not. Did a single ref make a single decision that effectively won casinos billions of dollars that were still very much in doubt? Yes. That doesn't mean that anything illegal occurred. But as a lawyer, you of all people should be aware of conflicts of interest.

You wouldn't trust a judge whose daughter was divorcing your client any more than I trust the NFL to make a decision that could cost its new partners and customers billions.

That conflict of interest was on display last night and it impacted my interest in the league.

Then how do you explain the NFL making a decision costing its new partners coin back in week 16.

And please explain how this new partnership is related to the Raiders in Vegas? That still happens if the Raiders move to Hartford. Given that Vegas is owned by Wall Street, do we have concerns with the Jets and Giants playing in NY?

 

[Chaz McNulty]

Interesting that he said that. He took the questions and admitted it, and he was hoping they'd let it slide.

Why would he think that? Fact is, it was the only holding call of the entire game on either team.

Respectfully, I have no clue how that can be interpreted as consistent unless he feels there were no other holding penalties committed by anyone for the first 58 minutes. It happened a lot and they all went uncalled... until that play.

If you let them play for 58 minutes, you have to let them play for the last 2.

Where are you finding this. I saw one PI that the referees obviously missed in the first half. Besides that, i am not sure it happened again. Are you just assuming their was defensive holding throughout the game?

 

[CGRdrJoe]

honest question to those in philly how did things hold up last night i hope that nothing stupid happened with breaking stuff etc i hope that all is well and congrats to philly on a great season i see you being even better next year god help the rest of us in the nfc take that to the bank brohans

It's Philly. You wouldn't be able to tell.

plenty of videos on tic toc showing police in riot gear having to clear crowds

 

[Mr.Pack]

It's a big moment for the officials also and they actually start to see things as slower than normal due to their own adrenaline. I'm sure that hold looked bigger than **** to the ref who threw the flag. I'm sorry, but the human nature of subjective fouls (like defensive holding) lends itself to this kind of call in a huge moment because officials are humans with emotions and adrenaline as well. It's

I’ll add to this that if the ref who made the call believed that it was holding (which Bradberry admitted to, so hard to assume anything else) then what people are *actually* asking for here is a deliberate non-call by an official who both witnessed, and believed enough holding happened to throw the flag.

Which he did.

Imagine the outrage if he’d come out after the game and said, “I definitely saw the hold. It was right in front of me. I thought there was enough there, but due to the situation I decided to not call it &’ swallowed my whistle”.

And then if Bradberry came out and said “yep, I was holding. Sure am glad I got away with that one - it might have cost us the game.”

Just sayin - that sword is sharp on both sides.

This raises an interesting question.

Why does “letter of the law” holding happen all the time and not get called (including on the line)?

Are these refs seeing it but judging that it is not egregious and trying not to slow the game by calling holding on every other play.

Or do they legit not see it? I always assumed the former.

I'm guessing if they see it they call it. The game moves so fast on the field and you have 22 players going evry which way at top speed. Easy to miss calls but when they are right in the open and the ref has the correct angle, it's called.

 

[BassNBrew]

This is not sour grapes; the Eagles deserved to lose. But the holding call at the end of the game was a ****ing travesty. The refs set the tempo of what they would or would not call for the entire game and there NO flags in the second half. To throw a flag at that moment on such a ticky tack foul when they were not all game was just ****ed. I think we absolutely could have gone the field with 1:45 left and kicked a FG or maybe even scored a TD. But here's the thing, if we get the ball and the Eagles go 3 and out, okay. We had a shot and the Chiefs D did their job. I can swallow that loss. This loss I can't. They basically took away any chance for the Eagles to mount one last drive and put it on the defense to stop us. It was beyond egregious..

Both teams had a drive eliminated by the officiating and the Chiefs drive was more egregious. It was just in the 1st half and they won, so hardly anyone is talking about it.

Some great/classic ending was all we were robbed of, but the call was a 60/40 call that gets made more often than not throughout the season.

It's a big moment for the officials also and they actually start to see things as slower than normal due to their own adrenaline. I'm sure that hold looked bigger than **** to the ref who threw the flag. I'm sorry, but the human nature of subjective fouls (like defensive holding) lends itself to this kind of call in a huge moment because officials are humans with emotions and adrenaline as well. It's the biggest game of their careers, so just like a player who may slightly miss a throw/catch/shot, etc. because they are too excited or caught up in the moment, a ref can miss a call because they are too excited. I'm sure in retrospect after watching film he wishes he'd let it go, but it was a justifiable penalty and he saw enough at the time to throw the flag. He likely asked the sideline official and back judge what they thought here, but if no one took him off it he had enough to stick with the call.

It's not egregious or a travesty, its just an unfortunate case of humanity in a game played and officiated by humans.

I think the thing that too many people forget is that the officials are part of the humanity of sports. They aren't a faceless robot with no skin in the game, but humans doing their very best (at least the majority of the time and certainly at this level). To err is human and all....

I get it, but honestly, they let them play all game long, setting a precedent for what is and isn't allowed. Again there were no flags thrown in the second half although that level of contact was happening all game. In the biggest moment, when a 3rd down conversion basically ends the game they decided to throw a towel at an EXTREMELY ticky tack play that had no effect on the play. These guys should have some situational awareness. FWIW, that was a late-*** flag too.

No effect on the play? He held the very guy Mahomes threw too. IMO it was late because they only called it because the hold had a direct impact on the play.

Also, “EXTREMELY ticky tack”? He had a fistful of jersey and held him twice. If he didn’t hold him he would have dusted the defender and been to the wide open spot Mahomes threw to.


ETA - I totally understand your frustration and I would normally be sympathetic but I’ve had my heart broken in similar fashion so many times I can’t be.

https://twitter.com/footballzebras/status/1624971786470281223?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1624971786470281223%7Ctwgr%5E1615ced9b38bb5ccd5d843b9f1cc640dbf341c5b%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sbnation.com%2Fnfl%2F2023%2F2%2F12%2F23597193%2Fsuper-bowl-holding-penalty-video-chiefs-eagles-2023

You explain to me where he had a fistful of jersey and held him twice. And no, he wouldn't have dusted the defender.

You’re using an interesting clip.

Here’s a full breakdown. It’s clearly and obviously a hold.

To those arguing “well they don’t always call that” - I’ve agreed with y’all.

But the take that it’s not even a penalty based on a selective camera angle is ice cold.

I'm not saying its "not a penalty" I'm responding to the notion that it materially impacted the play so much that the WR would have dusted the defender if not for the contact. I stand by that. What I REALLY had a problem with is that this contact wasn't call all game...until it was. Whatever, I've said five times that its not why the Eagles lost. I just have an issue with the Super Bowl ending because of a penalty that was being let go for 59 previous minutes. It is what it is, but it sucks.

They always call jersey tugs when they see it. Usually its a defender turning around after a RB has blown by him and the Olineman grads a handful of jersey. Didn't impact the play but it gets called more often than not.

 

[BassNBrew]

It's a big moment for the officials also and they actually start to see things as slower than normal due to their own adrenaline. I'm sure that hold looked bigger than **** to the ref who threw the flag. I'm sorry, but the human nature of subjective fouls (like defensive holding) lends itself to this kind of call in a huge moment because officials are humans with emotions and adrenaline as well. It's

I’ll add to this that if the ref who made the call believed that it was holding (which Bradberry admitted to, so hard to assume anything else) then what people are *actually* asking for here is a deliberate non-call by an official who both witnessed, and believed enough holding happened to throw the flag.

Which he did.

Imagine the outrage if he’d come out after the game and said, “I definitely saw the hold. It was right in front of me. I thought there was enough there, but due to the situation I decided to not call it &’ swallowed my whistle”.

And then if Bradberry came out and said “yep, I was holding. Sure am glad I got away with that one - it might have cost us the game.”

Just sayin - that sword is sharp on both sides.

This raises an interesting question.

Why does “letter of the law” holding happen all the time and not get called (including on the line)?

Are these refs seeing it but judging that it is not egregious and trying not to slow the game by calling holding on every other play.

Or do they legit not see it? I always assumed the former.

I'm guessing if they see it they call it. The game moves so fast on the field and you have 22 players going evry which way at top speed. Easy to miss calls but when they are right in the open and the ref has the correct angle, it's called.

Yup....especially when it's a handful of jersey.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

It's a big moment for the officials also and they actually start to see things as slower than normal due to their own adrenaline. I'm sure that hold looked bigger than **** to the ref who threw the flag. I'm sorry, but the human nature of subjective fouls (like defensive holding) lends itself to this kind of call in a huge moment because officials are humans with emotions and adrenaline as well. It's

I’ll add to this that if the ref who made the call believed that it was holding (which Bradberry admitted to, so hard to assume anything else) then what people are *actually* asking for here is a deliberate non-call by an official who both witnessed, and believed enough holding happened to throw the flag.

Which he did.

Imagine the outrage if he’d come out after the game and said, “I definitely saw the hold. It was right in front of me. I thought there was enough there, but due to the situation I decided to not call it &’ swallowed my whistle”.

And then if Bradberry came out and said “yep, I was holding. Sure am glad I got away with that one - it might have cost us the game.”

Just sayin - that sword is sharp on both sides.

This raises an interesting question.

Why does “letter of the law” holding happen all the time and not get called (including on the line)?

Are these refs seeing it but judging that it is not egregious and trying not to slow the game by calling holding on every other play.

Or do they legit not see it? I always assumed the former.

I'm guessing if they see it they call it. The game moves so fast on the field and you have 22 players going evry which way at top speed. Easy to miss calls but when they are right in the open and the ref has the correct angle, it's called.

That’s my opinion as well.

We get every camera angle - Refs see what they see.

And sometimes they don’t see it.

My most consistent gripe with officiating is lack of deferring to the official with the better angle on the play.

but when the ref is standing right behind the player getting held, it’s an easy call.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I saw one PI that the referees obviously missed in the first half.

If you’re talking about Juju, I didn’t even think that was DPI, but if they’d called it I wouldn’t have been mad.

Lots of hand-fighting. Juju sorta fell down. There wasn’t enough contact to push him down. That was a 50-50 call.

Real time I was yelling for the flag, but on replay I was like, oh ok.

 

[Da Guru]

NFL Rules committee needs to take a look at offensive players pushing the QB or RB from behind.

See it all the time but the Eagles just lined up like a rugby scrum behind Hurts on the short yardage plays.

 

[Amused to Death]

NFL Rules committee needs to take a look at offensive players pushing the QB or RB from behind.

See it all the time but the Eagles just lined up like a rugby scrum behind Hurts on the short yardage plays.

Yes, a team is good at it so let's ban it.

There's an entire thread on it here.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

NFL Rules committee needs to take a look at offensive players pushing the QB or RB from behind.

See it all the time but the Eagles just lined up like a rugby scrum behind Hurts on the short yardage plays.

It’s being discussed at length here:

push the pile play - horrible

The "push the pile" play is a scourge that must be done away with. It'll lead to many more injuries and fights as defenders grab a QBs leg or take shots at his arms and even head to get at the ball. It's also anti-strategy. Sure, there are some wrinkles that could be run off the victory style...

forums.footballguys.com

 

[Zow]

If your team is really better it should never come down to one call. Win the freaking game or go home

This isn't about which team should have won. I don't care who won. I don't like either team, i didn't bet anything, didn't have any pools or squares I was just watching a game.

There was a massive conflict of interest with 70 percent of the money coming in on the Bengals and eagles. Both games were competitive and both ended with ticky tack calls in the final drive that absolutely did decide the outcomes.

You can argue that the Bengals and eagles should have done more earlier to win the game but to me this isn't about sour grapes over who won. Lots of teams have benefitted from or been hurt by calls in the playoffs and I generally say what you said.

This was different. These weren't just big calls, they were both game-deciding calls, in both games, with enormous money on both sides. Calls that you don't expect to get made where they were. Whether you agree or disagree with the calls, or believe that the best team won, or even that the plays were penalties, is all irrelevant.

In back to bsck games, one person with a whistle made a judgement call and it decided the outcome in a way that won Vegas money. I don't have faith that the league will do anything to address the conduct of interest. And it has shaken my interest in the NFL going forward

Like most Pats Championships. **** happens.

This isn't about Fandom. This is about the NFL breaking decades of not having a team in Vegas or officially supporting gambling. That changed two years ago and we just watched billions of dollars decided on two end of game calls. Regardless of what you thought about the outcome that should be concerning.

No, it really shouldn't.

This has to be the most irrational I've seen you. It was a close call at the end of a tight game. Officiating is hard. That's it.

As somebody stated above both Vegas and the NFL have too much to lose should they engage in any nefarious activities. Risking the status quo just isn't worth it and, again, that probably should have been a no-call but it was a hold by definition of the rule so it's not like some horribly egregious call.

You don't think it's concerning.
That doesn't mean it's not concerning for anyone.

The NFL hurt their brand when they decided to embrace gambling. If you don't believe me, ask the NFL's own lawyers who said as much prior to the court decision that opened up sports gambling.

Was there some grand conspiracy? Probably not. Did a single ref make a single decision that effectively won casinos billions of dollars that were still very much in doubt? Yes. That doesn't mean that anything illegal occurred. But as a lawyer, you of all people should be aware of conflicts of interest.

You wouldn't trust a judge whose daughter was divorcing your client any more than I trust the NFL to make a decision that could cost its new partners and customers billions.

That conflict of interest was on display last night and it impacted my interest in the league.

Of course I am but I genuinely don't see any here. And, even if there is even the appearance of impropriety, I don't see anything that cause significant alarm.

Probably best for you to just not watch the NFL anymore if you're willing to put significant stock into anything that may facially appear improper as you're going to see conspiracies abound like the average QAnon member.

 

[bostonfred]

Was there some grand conspiracy? Probably not. Did a single ref make a single decision that effectively won casinos billions of dollars that were still very much in doubt? Yes

The decision to correctly call a holding penalty? Yes.

That’s where you lose me, GB.

I'm not complaining about the outcome. I'm saying that they've brought questions on themselves by taking money from sports gambling. Whether you agree with the call or not there will always be people who question it when the NFL's partners stand to make billions from one little call. You can not have that conflict of interest and expect fans not to talk about it. They are eroding their brand

 

[Jayrod]

I know college and NFL officiating have some differences, but I think keys and basic philosophies are very similar. Here is my understanding of the officiating of the defensive holding play.

Each of 5 officials are assigned an eligible receiver/back prior to the snap based on the formation. Widest receiver on each side is the deep wing's key (FJ/SJ) and then from there assigned to the short wings (LJ/DJ) and back judge depending on strong side or balanced keys (back judge shades to LJ side with LJ taking a back). If they read pass, they stay with their key to observe any potential holding or OPI action or anything bigger (facemask, unnecessary roughness, etc.). Once the play develops and some eligibles cross, the officials can/will switch keys or go to more of a zone coverage philosophy (like of the LJ key goes deep up the middle or the BJ key stays short in the flat). All of that takes a lot of pregame discussion, film review and communication during games to keep straight and organized.

Once the ball is thrown, typically anyone near the target area immediately should look at the intended receiver and covering defenders to watch for pass interference either way and then to help with catch/no catch determination.

I say all of that to say that the DH was one guy's call as none of the other officials would have (or should have) been looking there at that time. It was the deep wing's key (who was stationary at the goal line when they snap from the 15 yl) and he would have just stared at Smith-Shuster and Bradberry two the entire play where he would have seen the restriction and the jersey pull, looked to find the football (still in Mahomes hand in the pocket). He then immediately decided to throw the flag. Note the flag throw is already started while the ball is in the air which means he committed to it right before the pass was thrown. This decision was made in about a second and based on years of experience and film study and discussions with other officials and officiating trainers. While it was a quick judgement and reactionary call, it wasn't done in a vacuum and it wasn't this officials first DH call of the season or career. He saw the play, felt it met his threshold for material restriction and the rest of the play met the criteria for a defensive hold, so he threw the flag.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Was there some grand conspiracy? Probably not. Did a single ref make a single decision that effectively won casinos billions of dollars that were still very much in doubt? Yes

The decision to correctly call a holding penalty? Yes.

That’s where you lose me, GB.

I'm not complaining about the outcome. I'm saying that they've brought questions on themselves by taking money from sports gambling. Whether you agree with the call or not there will always be people who question it when the NFL's partners stand to make billions from one little call. You can not have that conflict of interest and expect fans not to talk about it. They are eroding their brand

It’s a fair point.

The fact is people have been questioning the legitimacy of the NFL for decades.

This just might be more fuel to the fire.

But point taken.

 

[Zow]

This is not sour grapes; the Eagles deserved to lose. But the holding call at the end of the game was a ****ing travesty. The refs set the tempo of what they would or would not call for the entire game and there NO flags in the second half. To throw a flag at that moment on such a ticky tack foul when they were not all game was just ****ed. I think we absolutely could have gone the field with 1:45 left and kicked a FG or maybe even scored a TD. But here's the thing, if we get the ball and the Eagles go 3 and out, okay. We had a shot and the Chiefs D did their job. I can swallow that loss. This loss I can't. They basically took away any chance for the Eagles to mount one last drive and put it on the defense to stop us. It was beyond egregious..

Both teams had a drive eliminated by the officiating and the Chiefs drive was more egregious. It was just in the 1st half and they won, so hardly anyone is talking about it.

Some great/classic ending was all we were robbed of, but the call was a 60/40 call that gets made more often than not throughout the season.

It's a big moment for the officials also and they actually start to see things as slower than normal due to their own adrenaline. I'm sure that hold looked bigger than **** to the ref who threw the flag. I'm sorry, but the human nature of subjective fouls (like defensive holding) lends itself to this kind of call in a huge moment because officials are humans with emotions and adrenaline as well. It's the biggest game of their careers, so just like a player who may slightly miss a throw/catch/shot, etc. because they are too excited or caught up in the moment, a ref can miss a call because they are too excited. I'm sure in retrospect after watching film he wishes he'd let it go, but it was a justifiable penalty and he saw enough at the time to throw the flag. He likely asked the sideline official and back judge what they thought here, but if no one took him off it he had enough to stick with the call.

It's not egregious or a travesty, its just an unfortunate case of humanity in a game played and officiated by humans.

I think the thing that too many people forget is that the officials are part of the humanity of sports. They aren't a faceless robot with no skin in the game, but humans doing their very best (at least the majority of the time and certainly at this level). To err is human and all....

I get it, but honestly, they let them play all game long, setting a precedent for what is and isn't allowed. Again there were no flags thrown in the second half although that level of contact was happening all game. In the biggest moment, when a 3rd down conversion basically ends the game they decided to throw a towel at an EXTREMELY ticky tack play that had no effect on the play. These guys should have some situational awareness. FWIW, that was a late-*** flag too.

I'm not sure we can definitively say the bold. It probably had little to a marginal impact, but the guy was the intended target and he was held for a brief moment.

Take a look at the replay I just posted and tell me what effect there was.

There's a still photo of the play floating around social media that shows a handful of jersey with a pull. It can be seen by scrolling down here: https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2023/...call-super-bowl-eagles-chiefs-james-bradberry

Anybody who has played a sport can probably acknowledge that even a slight jersey tug can disrupt your movement. Here, Smith Schuster is trying to break out to the left of the play and the defender clearly pulls him by the jersey at a 45 degree angle towards the opposite way.

 

[SWC]

hey freddy zow thinks kg wasnt a dirty player because he is blinded by his own fandom so i guess argue with him all you want but just accept that you arent arguing with a rational actor take that to the bank brohan

 

[Zow]

hey freddy zow thinks kg wasnt a dirty player because he is blinded by his own fandom so i guess argue with him all you want but just accept that you arent arguing with a rational actor take that to the bank brohan

Oh come on

 

[Zow]

hey freddy zow thinks kg wasnt a dirty player because he is blinded by his own fandom so i guess argue with him all you want but just accept that you arent arguing with a rational actor take that to the bank brohan

Oh come on

Hold me back, bros, I'm about to take the SWC'er to the bank behind the woodshed.

 

[Steelers4Life]

If you let them play for 58 minutes, you have to let them play for the last 2.

All I need to see now is a video complication of all of those alleged non-calls and I’ll be square on your side of this debate.

It’s a strong allegation - should be easy to prove if it went down as folks are asserting.

Well, its probably too early for that but here is the one that was Not called that was mentioned earlier. This seems more egregious than the contact made on the 3rd down play-he pulls his arm and twists his body as the ball is getting to him. There were others that I recall on both teams-nothing insane, just some contact. And to be clear that is fine-I prefer to let them play. I thought they called a good game for most of the game, just dropped the ball at the end. You're free to disagree.

I remember watching that in real time thinking Juju fell down and the defender didn’t pull him down so it was a good non-call for DPI. At the time I thought the official made the correct non-call.

But that’s not a holding penalty. Apples & oranges, and has nothing to do with Bradberry’s hold, which is clear on replay.

The penalties are judged differently. WR & defenders hand-fight all the time. I see nothing in the Juju replay you posted that shows any sort of holding, or that the defender interferes with/caused Juju to go to the ground. Also, Juju initiated the contact. lol

Strange example. Definitely doesn’t help prove or disprove anything about Bradberry’s hold.

Apples and oranges?

It's textbook holding as JuJu is coming out of his break. It wasn't called, and JuJu freaked out after the play because he knew it was. It was a more blatant and impactful tug than what happened late.

Contrast JuJu's tantrum after that play to the lack of a reaction after the play at the end of the game. You'd think he'd have gone crazy then too if he had really felt or been impacted by being held on such an important play. But he didn't. Why? Because he didn't think he had anything to complain about.

It's gotten to be a pointless disagreement because the game is over, the call was made, and the Chiefs won. If it was that simple, it wouldn't be so controversial today by so many people who had no rooting interest other than to see a great ending to a great game that should've been decided by the players.

 

[Zow]

NFL Rules committee needs to take a look at offensive players pushing the QB or RB from behind.

See it all the time but the Eagles just lined up like a rugby scrum behind Hurts on the short yardage plays.

Honestly credit to the Eagles for figuring out how to exploit the rule but I do hope that they make a change to it.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

It's textbook holding as JuJu is coming out of his break. It wasn't called, and JuJu freaked out after the play because he knew it was. It was a more blatant and impactful tug than what happened late.

The link you shared literally calls it a “missed DPI”

It’s not remotely holding.

 

[JIslander]

Drywall contractors in Philly gonna have a good week….

 

[unckeyherb]

If you let them play for 58 minutes, you have to let them play for the last 2.

All I need to see now is a video complication of all of those alleged non-calls and I’ll be square on your side of this debate.

It’s a strong allegation - should be easy to prove if it went down as folks are asserting.

Well, its probably too early for that but here is the one that was Not called that was mentioned earlier. This seems more egregious than the contact made on the 3rd down play-he pulls his arm and twists his body as the ball is getting to him. There were others that I recall on both teams-nothing insane, just some contact. And to be clear that is fine-I prefer to let them play. I thought they called a good game for most of the game, just dropped the ball at the end. You're free to disagree.

I remember watching that in real time thinking Juju fell down and the defender didn’t pull him down so it was a good non-call for DPI. At the time I thought the official made the correct non-call.

But that’s not a holding penalty. Apples & oranges, and has nothing to do with Bradberry’s hold, which is clear on replay.

The penalties are judged differently. WR & defenders hand-fight all the time. I see nothing in the Juju replay you posted that shows any sort of holding, or that the defender interferes with/caused Juju to go to the ground. Also, Juju initiated the contact. lol

Strange example. Definitely doesn’t help prove or disprove anything about Bradberry’s hold.

The point is that throughout the game there was a certain amount of contact being allowed between WRs and defenders, until there wasn't. I've stated my opinion numerous times, there's plenty of folks who are not Eagles fans that agree. I feel like we're going 15 rounds for nothing. You think the right call was made and thats great. I'm a biased Eagles fan, so it was a crushing call that I disagree with.

I can't imagine anyone watching that game, outside of Chiefs fans, were happy that that was how theis otherwise amazing Super Bowl ended.

 

[Steelers4Life]

Interesting that he said that. He took the questions and admitted it, and he was hoping they'd let it slide.

Why would he think that? Fact is, it was the only holding call of the entire game on either team.

Respectfully, I have no clue how that can be interpreted as consistent unless he feels there were no other holding penalties committed by anyone for the first 58 minutes. It happened a lot and they all went uncalled... until that play.

If you let them play for 58 minutes, you have to let them play for the last 2.

Where are you finding this. I saw one PI that the referees obviously missed in the first half. Besides that, i am not sure it happened again. Are you just assuming their was defensive holding throughout the game?

I'm WAY too lazy and uninterested to go find tape and post it. One was, but some are arguing that it wasn't.

If you want to make the argument that in an NFL football game, there were no holding calls that were overlooked or allowed in 58 minutes to the point that ZERO were called, we'll agree to disagree on that.
'
The idea that this was the only one of the entire game? Not on any offensive linemen. Not on any of the DBs who had been playing physical all game long. Not on any linebackers trying to cover Kelce or Goedert. I've been watching football for way too long to believe that. Is it an assumption? Maybe, but if it is, it's a pretty safe one.

The call itself doesn't bother me. You pull the jersey and the ref sees the jersey come away from the player, it's gonna get called regardless of what impact it has. Just like Darrell Jackson's push off in the end zone against the Steelers in the Super Bowl - if the back judge sees a WR with his arm extended into the chest of a DB, they're calling a push off. It kinda forces their hand.

But it's the inconsistency at such a big moment that kills me. Carry on... gotta get some work done haha

 

[GregR]

Lots of hand-fighting. Juju sorta fell down. There wasn’t enough contact to push him down. That was a 50-50 call.

I think saying the first half non-call only being 50-50 is way off.

He's running with his torso facing across the field.
Then Juju's torso got turned a full 90 degrees away from the ball by the contact.
When the ball arrives his left arm is literally still behind his back due to the contact, unable to reach for it.

It left the receiver with no opportunity for anything but a one-handed catch, and backhanded at that. They could use that clip as a teaching tool for refs as an example of what clear cut DPI looks like.

The end of game hold was closer to a judgment call. But the elements of a hold were there. There is a little hitch in his turn (4-5 seconds of the twitter clip) at the initial grab of his back that is unnatural if not being held, and slowed his break. It's a judgment call but it's worthy of being a hold. It could also go uncalled as not being significant enough. Judgment call.

The later grab where the broadcast froze it at 6 seconds isn't likely to be called a hold on its own I don't think, but combined with the earlier grab, it increased the likelihood.

 

[Steelers4Life]

It's textbook holding as JuJu is coming out of his break. It wasn't called, and JuJu freaked out after the play because he knew it was. It was a more blatant and impactful tug than what happened late.

The link you shared literally calls it a “missed DPI”

It’s not remotely holding.

My bad... if the ball was already in the air, call it DPI. If not, it was holding.

EIther way, it was another physical play by a DB on the WR who was targeted and in plain sight of anyone watching the play. That could've been a penalty but was permitted because up until the final 2 minutes, they were letting them play with a very loose whistle. Guys were making or not making plays, and that was deciding the game. Football fans deserved them to continue that for the entire game.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I think saying the first half non-call only being 50-50 is way off.

He's running with his torso facing across the field.
Then Juju's torso got turned a full 90 degrees away from the ball by the contact.
When the ball arrives his left arm is literally still behind his back due to the contact, unable to reach for it.

My issue with this is that Juju imitated the contact. Once they started hand-fighting, I didn't see a clear DPI there. And his falling down had nothing to do with the defender - also, you mentioned the ball "arriving" - but that ball is clearly 2 yards out.

I see that as far less than textbook DPI, but we can agree to disagree.

 

[ProstheticRGK]

I know it's officially the off season now, and that this is a fantasy football geek site for us nerds who like to hyper analyze everything, but can somebody in the NFL have a personal scandal, or something soon, please? I am officially over "phantom hold gate", and would like to hear about anything else.

Where did Andy get his celebratory burger from? What was Pat's wait like at Space Mountain? Did Willie Gay get teased a lot in High School for his last name? Did that make him stronger?

 

[GregR]

This is not sour grapes; the Eagles deserved to lose. But the holding call at the end of the game was a ****ing travesty. The refs set the tempo of what they would or would not call for the entire game and there NO flags in the second half. To throw a flag at that moment on such a ticky tack foul when they were not all game was just ****ed. I think we absolutely could have gone the field with 1:45 left and kicked a FG or maybe even scored a TD. But here's the thing, if we get the ball and the Eagles go 3 and out, okay. We had a shot and the Chiefs D did their job. I can swallow that loss. This loss I can't. They basically took away any chance for the Eagles to mount one last drive and put it on the defense to stop us. It was beyond egregious..

Both teams had a drive eliminated by the officiating and the Chiefs drive was more egregious. It was just in the 1st half and they won, so hardly anyone is talking about it.

Some great/classic ending was all we were robbed of, but the call was a 60/40 call that gets made more often than not throughout the season.

It's a big moment for the officials also and they actually start to see things as slower than normal due to their own adrenaline. I'm sure that hold looked bigger than **** to the ref who threw the flag. I'm sorry, but the human nature of subjective fouls (like defensive holding) lends itself to this kind of call in a huge moment because officials are humans with emotions and adrenaline as well. It's the biggest game of their careers, so just like a player who may slightly miss a throw/catch/shot, etc. because they are too excited or caught up in the moment, a ref can miss a call because they are too excited. I'm sure in retrospect after watching film he wishes he'd let it go, but it was a justifiable penalty and he saw enough at the time to throw the flag. He likely asked the sideline official and back judge what they thought here, but if no one took him off it he had enough to stick with the call.

It's not egregious or a travesty, its just an unfortunate case of humanity in a game played and officiated by humans.

I think the thing that too many people forget is that the officials are part of the humanity of sports. They aren't a faceless robot with no skin in the game, but humans doing their very best (at least the majority of the time and certainly at this level). To err is human and all....

I get it, but honestly, they let them play all game long, setting a precedent for what is and isn't allowed. Again there were no flags thrown in the second half although that level of contact was happening all game. In the biggest moment, when a 3rd down conversion basically ends the game they decided to throw a towel at an EXTREMELY ticky tack play that had no effect on the play. These guys should have some situational awareness. FWIW, that was a late-*** flag too.

I'm not sure we can definitively say the bold. It probably had little to a marginal impact, but the guy was the intended target and he was held for a brief moment.

Take a look at the replay I just posted and tell me what effect there was.

There's a still photo of the play floating around social media that shows a handful of jersey with a pull. It can be seen by scrolling down here: https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2023/...call-super-bowl-eagles-chiefs-james-bradberry

Anybody who has played a sport can probably acknowledge that even a slight jersey tug can disrupt your movement. Here, Smith Schuster is trying to break out to the left of the play and the defender clearly pulls him by the jersey at a 45 degree angle towards the opposite way.

Yes, that's the angle that shows the grab when that hitch I mentioned happened. The link to the direct tweet: https://twitter.com/PeteScantlebury...call-super-bowl-eagles-chiefs-james-bradberry

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

It's textbook holding as JuJu is coming out of his break. It wasn't called, and JuJu freaked out after the play because he knew it was. It was a more blatant and impactful tug than what happened late.

The link you shared literally calls it a “missed DPI”

It’s not remotely holding.

My bad... if the ball was already in the air, call it DPI. If not, it was holding.

EIther way, it was another physical play by a DB on the WR who was targeted and in plain sight of anyone watching the play. That could've been a penalty but was permitted because up until the final 2 minutes, they were letting them play with a very loose whistle. Guys were making or not making plays, and that was deciding the game. Football fans deserved them to continue that for the entire game.

And here's the problem with that sort of observation/assertion: One can go back, after the fact, and cherry pick a handful of plays and create a conspiracy theory about it.

But penalties aren't called on a cumulative basis. Penalties are called in the moment, in the context of only that play.

The Bradberry holding penalty wasn't some ref out to get Bradberry. Dude held. Flag was thrown. That's it. It sucked because of the context, but its a clear holding penalty with an official standing right there to see it in clear view.

I don't know who was assigned to watch the non-DPI call on Juju - I fell like it was 50-50, obviously others disagree. All that really matters is what the officials saw. And ok, I have no hill to die on - let's say they blew that DPI. That doesn't mean the officials let everything go "up until the last 2 mins" and then tighten up. That's a narrative, and IMO a very difficult one to prove. Further, it's a narrative that asserts some sort of cumulative effect of penalties rather than each being called in the moment.

I know there's a running joke about "make up calls" in the NFL - I've made it myself over the decades. But I don't actually believe they call a subsequent penalty based on the reaction to a prior penalty. if they blow a call they blow a call. They then move on to the next call.

Professional referees have a much shorter memory than fans viewing at home.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I know it's officially the off season now, and that this is a fantasy football geek site for us nerds who like to hyper analyze everything, but can somebody in the NFL have a personal scandal, or something soon, please? I am officially over "phantom hold gate", and would like to hear about anything else.

You are aware that you have the option of *not* clicking on this topic, right?

 

[GregR]

I think saying the first half non-call only being 50-50 is way off.

He's running with his torso facing across the field.
Then Juju's torso got turned a full 90 degrees away from the ball by the contact.
When the ball arrives his left arm is literally still behind his back due to the contact, unable to reach for it.

My issue with this is that Juju imitated the contact. Once they started hand-fighting, I didn't see a clear DPI there. And his falling down had nothing to do with the defender - also, you mentioned the ball "arriving" - but that ball is clearly 2 yards out.

I see that as far less than textbook DPI, but we can agree to disagree.

The last picture I gave, if his arm is that far behind his back with the ball that close, there's no way he can use that hand to try to catch the ball. I didn't screen cap when the ball is exactly passing him but not surprisingly his arm is still on the back side of his body unable to reach for the ball.

 

[GregR]

NFL Rules committee needs to take a look at offensive players pushing the QB or RB from behind.

See it all the time but the Eagles just lined up like a rugby scrum behind Hurts on the short yardage plays.

Honestly credit to the Eagles for figuring out how to exploit the rule but I do hope that they make a change to it.

Yes I don't think this play creates a very interesting game that makes me want to watch it. Hope the Rules Committee does something with it.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

The last picture I gave, if his arm is that far behind his back with the ball that close, there's no way he can use that hand to try to catch the ball. I didn't screen cap when the ball is exactly passing him but not surprisingly his arm is still on the back side of his body unable to reach for the ball.

When the ball gets there he is falling down. It looked like he slipped.

 

[ProstheticRGK]

I know it's officially the off season now, and that this is a fantasy football geek site for us nerds who like to hyper analyze everything, but can somebody in the NFL have a personal scandal, or something soon, please? I am officially over "phantom hold gate", and would like to hear about anything else.

You are aware that you have the option of *not* clicking on this topic, right?

You're not the boss of me. Not just here, though. I have the day off, and every sports show in the country is only talking about the "phantom hold", either pro or con. I'm over it.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I know it's officially the off season now, and that this is a fantasy football geek site for us nerds who like to hyper analyze everything, but can somebody in the NFL have a personal scandal, or something soon, please? I am officially over "phantom hold gate", and would like to hear about anything else.

You are aware that you have the option of *not* clicking on this topic, right?

You're not the boss of me.

Fair.

Not just here, though. I have the day off, and every sports show in the country is only talking about the "phantom hold", either pro or con. I'm over it.

Something something can also change the channel, go for a walk, pet your dog, etc.

In fact, that's a fine idea - I'mma take the mutt for a walk & get a bloody Mary downtown at my favorite local watering hole.

Enjoy your day.