The disrespect Tim Tebow gets is astonishing (1 Viewer)

[tom22406]

He's not that good but his fans keep pumping him up as some sort of superhuman savior. Face it, if he didn't publicly display his Christianity so much and if he hadn't run an anti-abortion ad on TV, he wouldn't have nearly the same amount of adoration from the "true believers". His fans are the reason he's always in the media, and the media pays attention to how he plays, which isn't so good so far.

I don't care about all that stuff. I'm talking football here. He got all the insane attention because of what he did on the football field, not because of the other stuff.

That is not correct, and it's obvious. If it's his play on the field that got him all this attention then why didn't Cam Newton get more attention, since he was so much better on the field? It's "what he stands for" that has generated the majority of the attention.

Cam Newton has less attention because he threw 17 picks and lost a majority of his games. He is fools gold... looks pretty out there, but that will never ever win. Period! He has more work than Tebow to do in terms of winning.

Ok this one made me You can't seriously believe this,can you?

 

[Mile High]

Cam is vastly superior to Tebow. Don't even get started with that nonsense.

I don't think the disrespect Tebow gets is unwarranted. I would argue that he was one of the most overrated players in the league last year by the general public. He got way too much credit for his team's modest accomplishments. What we're seeing now with Denver's acquisition of Manning and the low trade value of Tebow is that actual professional NFL evaluators don't rate him as a viable starting QB. If they did, Denver would've kept him or the asking price would have been a lot higher.

Cam is vastly superior how? What metric are you using that matters related to wins? He looks prettier. You can use emotions... that is a feminine trait. Whatever metric you use, go and test it against real data... you will find out that you are a moron.

Great news for Denver. Can't wait for the Tebow for Newton trade.

 

[humpback]

The issue isn't his completion percentage, TD/INT ratio, or his QB rating, it's his actual passes. I suppose it's possible to correct, but it doesn't seem likely. The fact that he's already worked as hard as he has and still throws the ball poorly doesn't bode well for his chances to improve much IMO.

When you watched a young Peyton, Elway, Brady, Vick, etc., you could see their ability to throw the ball- they just had to improve on other things like location, decision making, etc. Tebow just doesn't throw the ball well at all, and that's pretty difficult to improve (and pretty important for a QB).

 

[Punch]

Cam is vastly superior to Tebow. Don't even get started with that nonsense.

I don't think the disrespect Tebow gets is unwarranted. I would argue that he was one of the most overrated players in the league last year by the general public. He got way too much credit for his team's modest accomplishments. What we're seeing now with Denver's acquisition of Manning and the low trade value of Tebow is that actual professional NFL evaluators don't rate him as a viable starting QB. If they did, Denver would've kept him or the asking price would have been a lot higher.

Cam is vastly superior how? What metric are you using that matters related to wins? He looks prettier. You can use emotions... that is a feminine trait. Whatever metric you use, go and test it against real data... you will find out that you are a moron.

Tebow > Cam; Got it. How can we argue with that?

 

[Punch]

Is there a metric we can use to measure the average Tebowmaniac's football knowledge? Age?

 

[ninerfanatic492000]

he doesn't get respect because he is not a good football player. the team he led to the playoffs couldn't wait to get a new QB and all they can get is basically a 4th round pick for him so pretty much all NFL teams agree that he is not a good football player

What makes a good football player?? Winning games? Going to the playoffs and winning a game? He's not traditional but he beat out Phillip Rivers in that division and I'd say hes pretty good.

Exactly...........Signed Shaun King

 

[UTLonghorn31]

Cam is vastly superior to Tebow. Don't even get started with that nonsense.

I don't think the disrespect Tebow gets is unwarranted. I would argue that he was one of the most overrated players in the league last year by the general public. He got way too much credit for his team's modest accomplishments. What we're seeing now with Denver's acquisition of Manning and the low trade value of Tebow is that actual professional NFL evaluators don't rate him as a viable starting QB. If they did, Denver would've kept him or the asking price would have been a lot higher.

Cam is vastly superior how? What metric are you using that matters related to wins? He looks prettier. You can use emotions... that is a feminine trait. Whatever metric you use, go and test it against real data... you will find out that you are a moron.

Great news for Denver. Can't wait for the Tebow for Newton trade.

Wrong, NFL teams don't use Money Ball tactics, they are old school... they use emotions and feminine traits, except for a couple of the elite franchises... the kind that say Tebow would have won more games than Cam. I can agree he won't look pretty doing it, but if you chart algorithms of QBRating and turnovers vs opponent QB Rating and turnovers, it gives a very very high probability to the winner. 17 picks to 6 picks... Newton would have to have a much, much higher QB Rating to cover for that.

 

[EBF]

Cam is vastly superior to Tebow. Don't even get started with that nonsense.

I don't think the disrespect Tebow gets is unwarranted. I would argue that he was one of the most overrated players in the league last year by the general public. He got way too much credit for his team's modest accomplishments. What we're seeing now with Denver's acquisition of Manning and the low trade value of Tebow is that actual professional NFL evaluators don't rate him as a viable starting QB. If they did, Denver would've kept him or the asking price would have been a lot higher.

Cam is vastly superior how? What metric are you using that matters related to wins? He looks prettier. You can use emotions... that is a feminine trait. Whatever metric you use, go and test it against real data... you will find out that you are a moron.

Pretty much every objective stat favors Newton. Completion Percentage

Tebow - 46.5%

Newton - 60.0%

QB Rating

Tebow - 72.9

Newton - 84.5

Yards/Attempt

Tebow - 6.38

Newton - 7.84

Cam also had far more yards and TDs. The one area where Tebow was superior was in TD:INT ratio. Of course, Cam did all of this as a rookie on the team that finished dead last a year ago, whereas Tebow was a second year player with a lot more NFL practice experience under his belt.

I think the main problem with the pro Tebow crowd is that they exaggerate his role in Denver's wins. The Broncos did not have a great season last year. They went 8-8 and won one playoff game in over time against an inconsistent Steelers team that had recently struggled to polish off the Browns. These are not incredible achievements. They beat very few good teams and Tebow had very few standout performances.

Moreover, a QB is a very important part of his team's success, but he is not solely responsible for winning and losing. You can't just attribute all of Denver's wins to Tebow's performance. It doesn't work like that.

Having said all that, the most damning fact is still that his own front office ran him out of town and that he was had in a trade for a pair of low draft picks. If NFL evaluators rated him even remotely close to where his fanatical defenders do, he probably would've commanded a significantly higher price. There are plenty of teams who would trade a 2nd or even a 1st round pick for a franchise QB. Just look at what RG3 fetched. The problem is that, unlike on these message boards, no one in an NFL front office believes Tim Tebow is capable of being a consistent winner in the NFL based on his performance to date.

 

[Punch]

Cam is vastly superior to Tebow. Don't even get started with that nonsense.

I don't think the disrespect Tebow gets is unwarranted. I would argue that he was one of the most overrated players in the league last year by the general public. He got way too much credit for his team's modest accomplishments. What we're seeing now with Denver's acquisition of Manning and the low trade value of Tebow is that actual professional NFL evaluators don't rate him as a viable starting QB. If they did, Denver would've kept him or the asking price would have been a lot higher.

Cam is vastly superior how? What metric are you using that matters related to wins? He looks prettier. You can use emotions... that is a feminine trait. Whatever metric you use, go and test it against real data... you will find out that you are a moron.

Pretty much every objective stat favors Newton. Completion Percentage

Tebow - 46.5%

Newton - 60.0%

QB Rating

Tebow - 72.9

Newton - 84.5

Yards/Attempt

Tebow - 6.38

Newton - 7.84

Cam also had far more yards and TDs. The one area where Tebow was superior was in TD:INT ratio. Of course, Cam did all of this as a rookie on the team that finished dead last a year ago, whereas Tebow was a second year player with a lot more NFL practice experience under his belt.

I think the main problem with the pro Tebow crowd is that they exaggerate his role in Denver's wins. The Broncos did not have a great season last year. They went 8-8 and won one playoff game in over time against an inconsistent Steelers team that had recently struggled to polish off the Browns. These are not incredible achievements. They beat very few good teams and Tebow had very few standout performances.

Moreover, a QB is a very important part of his team's success, but he is not solely responsible for winning and losing. You can't just attribute all of Denver's wins to Tebow's performance. It doesn't work like that.

Having said all that, the most damning fact is still that his own front office ran him out of town and that he was had in a trade for a pair of low draft picks. If NFL evaluators rated him even remotely close to where his fanatical defenders do, he probably would've commanded a significantly higher price. There are plenty of teams who would trade a 2nd or even a 1st round pick for a franchise QB. Just look at what RG3 fetched. The problem is that, unlike on these message boards, no one in an NFL front office believes Tim Tebow is capable of being a consistent winner in the NFL based on his performance to date.

 

[mjr]

Personally, I think Tebow pulled out those wins and took a playoff game not because he's got the goods, but because he's so erratic and unpredictable that defenses get confused.

I almost believe if Tebow gets better that he's actually not going to get those lucky wins nearly as much.

I wish the guy well. I really do. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt as a Jet fan if this trade ultimately goes through. But I'm not expecting "Miracles in the Meadowlands".

 

[UTLonghorn31]

Cam is vastly superior to Tebow. Don't even get started with that nonsense.

I don't think the disrespect Tebow gets is unwarranted. I would argue that he was one of the most overrated players in the league last year by the general public. He got way too much credit for his team's modest accomplishments. What we're seeing now with Denver's acquisition of Manning and the low trade value of Tebow is that actual professional NFL evaluators don't rate him as a viable starting QB. If they did, Denver would've kept him or the asking price would have been a lot higher.

Cam is vastly superior how? What metric are you using that matters related to wins? He looks prettier. You can use emotions... that is a feminine trait. Whatever metric you use, go and test it against real data... you will find out that you are a moron.

Pretty much every objective stat favors Newton. Completion Percentage

Tebow - 46.5%

Newton - 60.0%

QB Rating

Tebow - 72.9

Newton - 84.5

Yards/Attempt

Tebow - 6.38

Newton - 7.84

Cam also had far more yards and TDs. The one area where Tebow was superior was in TD:INT ratio. Of course, Cam did all of this as a rookie on the team that finished dead last a year ago, whereas Tebow was a second year player with a lot more NFL practice experience under his belt.

I think the main problem with the pro Tebow crowd is that they exaggerate his role in Denver's wins. The Broncos did not have a great season last year. They went 8-8 and won one playoff game in over time against an inconsistent Steelers team that had recently struggled to polish off the Browns. These are not incredible achievements. They beat very few good teams and Tebow had very few standout performances.

Moreover, a QB is a very important part of his team's success, but he is not solely responsible for winning and losing. You can't just attribute all of Denver's wins to Tebow's performance. It doesn't work like that.

Having said all that, the most damning fact is still that his own front office ran him out of town and that he was had in a trade for a pair of low draft picks. If NFL evaluators rated him even remotely close to where his fanatical defenders do, he probably would've commanded a significantly higher price. There are plenty of teams who would trade a 2nd or even a 1st round pick for a franchise QB. Just look at what RG3 fetched. The problem is that, unlike on these message boards, no one in an NFL front office believes Tim Tebow is capable of being a consistent winner in the NFL based on his performance to date.

Those are arbitrary... show me a real algorithm as it pertains to WINS... run it against real data

 

[ninerfanatic492000]

The truth is any team that only scores 18pts a game is going to look at whose behind center b/c consistently over time that won't be enuff to win games. Denver's D played great for most of his stretch run. My niners won how many games last year? And we all applaud them from trying to upgrade the position b/c to be frank, Alex isn't enuff and its scary to think he's light years better as a passer or NFL qb than tebow

 

[Bri]

What we're seeing is why NFL QBs are paid such ridiculous money.

The fans are obsessed with them possibly in a way unlike any other position in all of sports.

Tebow was awesome at Florida; one of the better QBs in college history.

OU, Texas and other "loyal" college fans felt it necessary to hate on their rival QB at times. It happens.

TONS of people said he'd stink as a pro.

Even more bought his jersey as he became the highest selling player ever in a single season. He was like top 5 after a month.

Seemingly every newspaper, TV station, and website seemed to have something about the guy.

He played Tebow type football which supposedly couldn't be done in the NFL and thrived taking the Broncos into the playoffs all the while beating some teams they "shouldn't have."

Now the haters are back. The ones proven wrong when he succeeded think they get another chance here.

Lost amidst this is how many Denver fans would have been up in arms if it was anyone other than Sir Peyton replacing him.

He is the most polarizing figure I've ever seen in sports. He's like a rock band nobody heard of coming to town and everyone adores their new album as they leave or...it's very hard to find a comparable analogy here. His popularity and ability to attract fans is incredible.

These boards-

Bradford broke rookie records and people were calling for his head oh two months ago saying he stinks and Rams need to draft another etc.

Colt McCoy was impressive and some liked(not loved) him as a rook. In year two, they're all over him.

Those three were such a trio in college. Their games against each other were awesome. Bradford had a pretty arm and all, but McCoy and Tebow- I would not want to be in close game with in the fourth Q. Those two can flat out win.

McCoy isn't as good and we knew that. The Browns WRs are terrible with a very much unproven rookie that dropped plenty of balls somehow being their best last year. Their pass blocking left tons to be desired too and there's little doubt as to why he struggled. Some is definitely his fault, but no way is all of it. Still...with people calling for him to be replaced and all; I want him to go be a backup for Brady or somewhere where he just might need to use that fourth quarter ability.

Granted I still want to see Armanti Edwards play QB in the NFL, but it's for the same reasons-the guy won over and over when everyone thought he couldn't. If anyone did more than Tebow to help his team win it's Armanti.

We love the stats in FF and guy's like Romo are beautiful for FF, but I would never want him to QB my team. He always finds a way to choke in the playoffs and in a big fourth Q win, it's always someone else making a big play. I think the NFL is full of a lot of good looking QBs that can put up stats. These winners though, the driven ones...if a team has a productive defense, those pretty boy QBs can't beat em' in a big game.

The money, the fame, the game itself changes alot of these QBs. Rookie Vince Young compared to now is a good example. Some of these college QBs heads(football only) are perfect for winning. They're great leaders, with the ability to overcome and the inner-drive they have is ridiculously impressive. At a way slower pace than Young, even McNabb was somewhat this way. The older he got, he couldn't almost will his team to win anymore and they always made the playoffs when he was young (and healthy). Most all these QBs have this disorganized run for a first, throw an ugly short pass that somehow gets a first, heave it deep outta nowhere and..it's not the rhythmic pretty passes of those pretty boy QBs but they're winning. Joker Kordell Stewart once had it too and the younger folks here think he always stunk as a QB. Vick had a few driven years where he was unstoppable but a pretty boy the rest.

I'll take a general leading his troops up a hill over someone just hoping the team does well. NFL doesn't have many generals so these driven folks stand out every now and then.

Kerry Collins has been mocked a ton, but how many championship games and Supes did he make. Only Favre, Brady, and Peyton were in more while he was playing. Sometimes when you have a good D, all ya need is a good general.

 

[EBF]

Are you even serious? Just seems like you're trolling at this point.

I'm not going to get wrapped up in another Tebow debate. It's a waste of time.

I'll just say that in general, I think a lot of his supporters are mistakenly assuming causation just because of correlation. In other words, Denver won a few games after Tebow took over as a starter, but this does not mean that Denver won those games because Tebow took over as a starter. If you're a Tebow fan, you probably think he was the cause of their wins. If you're a Tebow skeptic, you probably don't. I am definitely in the latter group. I think he played pretty poorly overall and was fortunate to win as many games as he did. If he played that way over the course of a full career, I don't his winning percentage would be above .500 or even very close.

It's possible that he will improve, but to me he looks like the second coming of Kordell Stewart, with perhaps even less passing ability.

 

[UTLonghorn31]

Are you even serious? Just seems like you're trolling at this point.

I'm not going to get wrapped up in another Tebow debate. It's a waste of time.

I'll just say that in general, I think a lot of his supporters are mistakenly assuming causation just because of correlation. In other words, Denver won a few games after Tebow took over as a starter, but this does not mean that Denver won those games because Tebow took over as a starter. If you're a Tebow fan, you probably think he was the cause of their wins. If you're a Tebow skeptic, you probably don't. I am definitely in the latter group. I think he played pretty poorly overall and was fortunate to win as many games as he did. If he played that way over the course of a full career, I don't his winning percentage would be above .500 or even very close.

It's possible that he will improve, but to me he looks like the second coming of Kordell Stewart, with perhaps even less passing ability.

Have you watched Money Ball? Why was it so successful? Because it boiled down to mathematics and not some emotions. That "rag-tag" team won a ton of games because it was good in the metrics that matter, not the ones that are hyped up or that don't matter.

 

[Bri]

Pretty much every objective stat favors Newton.

Completion Percentage

Tebow - 46.5%

Newton - 60.0%

QB Rating

Tebow - 72.9

Newton - 84.5

Yards/Attempt

Tebow - 6.38

Newton - 7.84

Cam also had far more yards and TDs. The one area where Tebow was superior was in TD:INT ratio. Of course, Cam did all of this as a rookie on the team that finished dead last a year ago, whereas Tebow was a second year player with a lot more NFL practice experience under his belt.

I think the main problem with the pro Tebow crowd is that they exaggerate his role in Denver's wins. The Broncos did not have a great season last year. They went 8-8 and won one playoff game in over time against an inconsistent Steelers team that had recently struggled to polish off the Browns. These are not incredible achievements. They beat very few good teams and Tebow had very few standout performances.

Moreover, a QB is a very important part of his team's success, but he is not solely responsible for winning and losing. You can't just attribute all of Denver's wins to Tebow's performance. It doesn't work like that.

Having said all that, the most damning fact is still that his own front office ran him out of town and that he was had in a trade for a pair of low draft picks. If NFL evaluators rated him even remotely close to where his fanatical defenders do, he probably would've commanded a significantly higher price. There are plenty of teams who would trade a 2nd or even a 1st round pick for a franchise QB. Just look at what RG3 fetched. The problem is that, unlike on these message boards, no one in an NFL front office believes Tim Tebow is capable of being a consistent winner in the NFL based on his performance to date.

yes you had an objective and no those aren't objective stats unless your means was to prove your objective-they're clearly subjective.You continue to minimize his ability to win and/or will a team to win even with a phrase "it doesn't work like that."

It sure does, that's why there's a scoreboard.

They don't get points for any stat you posted, and total points don't even matter if a team wins.

Your post completely shuns the phrase "A quarterback leads his team to victory."

 

[UTLonghorn31]

Are you even serious? Just seems like you're trolling at this point.

I'm not going to get wrapped up in another Tebow debate. It's a waste of time.

I'll just say that in general, I think a lot of his supporters are mistakenly assuming causation just because of correlation. In other words, Denver won a few games after Tebow took over as a starter, but this does not mean that Denver won those games because Tebow took over as a starter. If you're a Tebow fan, you probably think he was the cause of their wins. If you're a Tebow skeptic, you probably don't. I am definitely in the latter group. I think he played pretty poorly overall and was fortunate to win as many games as he did. If he played that way over the course of a full career, I don't his winning percentage would be above .500 or even very close.

It's possible that he will improve, but to me he looks like the second coming of Kordell Stewart, with perhaps even less passing ability.

And yes, I am dead serious... with a 140 IQ and experience at every level of the Football profession.

 

[Mile High]

Are you even serious? Just seems like you're trolling at this point.

I'm not going to get wrapped up in another Tebow debate. It's a waste of time.

I'll just say that in general, I think a lot of his supporters are mistakenly assuming causation just because of correlation. In other words, Denver won a few games after Tebow took over as a starter, but this does not mean that Denver won those games because Tebow took over as a starter. If you're a Tebow fan, you probably think he was the cause of their wins. If you're a Tebow skeptic, you probably don't. I am definitely in the latter group. I think he played pretty poorly overall and was fortunate to win as many games as he did. If he played that way over the course of a full career, I don't his winning percentage would be above .500 or even very close.

It's possible that he will improve, but to me he looks like the second coming of Kordell Stewart, with perhaps even less passing ability.

And yes, I am dead serious... with a 140 IQ and experience at every level of the Football profession.

What NFL team do you run?

 

[SeveredHorseHeads]

And yes, I am dead serious... with a 140 IQ and experience at every level of the Football profession.

 

[RBM]

he doesn't get respect because he is not a good football player. the team he led to the playoffs couldn't wait to get a new QB and all they can get is basically a 4th round pick for him so pretty much all NFL teams agree that he is not a good football player

What makes a good football player?? Winning games? Going to the playoffs and winning a game? He's not traditional but he beat out Phillip Rivers in that division and I'd say hes pretty good.

Tebow needs three things to succeed. Good defense, good o line, and teammates that believe in him. He gets those and I dont care what the numbers are, he will win football games. Kid is a winner.

 

[UTLonghorn31]

Are you even serious? Just seems like you're trolling at this point.

I'm not going to get wrapped up in another Tebow debate. It's a waste of time.

I'll just say that in general, I think a lot of his supporters are mistakenly assuming causation just because of correlation. In other words, Denver won a few games after Tebow took over as a starter, but this does not mean that Denver won those games because Tebow took over as a starter. If you're a Tebow fan, you probably think he was the cause of their wins. If you're a Tebow skeptic, you probably don't. I am definitely in the latter group. I think he played pretty poorly overall and was fortunate to win as many games as he did. If he played that way over the course of a full career, I don't his winning percentage would be above .500 or even very close.

It's possible that he will improve, but to me he looks like the second coming of Kordell Stewart, with perhaps even less passing ability.

And yes, I am dead serious... with a 140 IQ and experience at every level of the Football profession.

What NFL team do you run?

I didn't say I run a team... experience includes NFL, AFL, NCAA, League Office, Organization, and Agency...

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Are you even serious? Just seems like you're trolling at this point.

I'm not going to get wrapped up in another Tebow debate. It's a waste of time.

I'll just say that in general, I think a lot of his supporters are mistakenly assuming causation just because of correlation. In other words, Denver won a few games after Tebow took over as a starter, but this does not mean that Denver won those games because Tebow took over as a starter. If you're a Tebow fan, you probably think he was the cause of their wins. If you're a Tebow skeptic, you probably don't. I am definitely in the latter group. I think he played pretty poorly overall and was fortunate to win as many games as he did. If he played that way over the course of a full career, I don't his winning percentage would be above .500 or even very close.

It's possible that he will improve, but to me he looks like the second coming of Kordell Stewart, with perhaps even less passing ability.

And yes, I am dead serious... with a 140 IQ and experience at every level of the Football profession.

You're a dope.

 

[tom22406]

Are you even serious? Just seems like you're trolling at this point.

I'm not going to get wrapped up in another Tebow debate. It's a waste of time.

I'll just say that in general, I think a lot of his supporters are mistakenly assuming causation just because of correlation. In other words, Denver won a few games after Tebow took over as a starter, but this does not mean that Denver won those games because Tebow took over as a starter. If you're a Tebow fan, you probably think he was the cause of their wins. If you're a Tebow skeptic, you probably don't. I am definitely in the latter group. I think he played pretty poorly overall and was fortunate to win as many games as he did. If he played that way over the course of a full career, I don't his winning percentage would be above .500 or even very close.

It's possible that he will improve, but to me he looks like the second coming of Kordell Stewart, with perhaps even less passing ability.

And yes, I am dead serious... with a 140 IQ and experience at every level of the Football profession.

What NFL team do you run?

I didn't say I run a team... experience includes NFL, AFL, NCAA, League Office, Organization, and Agency...

Is this where we guess who you are?I'll start.

Matt Millen?

 

[Banger]

Go back and look at all the Vince young threads a few years back. He burst on the scene and the titans won a bunch of games similar to Tebow. His supporters argued tooth and nail that he was a winner and dont worry about the stats. He just wins games. The detractors looked at his completion %, the ducks he threw, etc. and argued it was a team game and while he was the qb they weren't winning because of him.

How's Vince doing now? Very similar comparison IMO albeit the Tebow mania is obviously much greater than it ever was for VY.

 

[Bri]

It's possible that he will improve, but to me he looks like the second coming of Kordell Stewart, with perhaps even less passing ability.

snipped the part about you discounting wins again, even though this time it's because of your own projection for him to not win.Kordell didn't fit neatly into any prototype. I'm not sure if that guy (in life or football) ever did anything normal. It's difficult to characterize him so why do people even try? He was a very effective slot WR. You probably can't name a QB that played WR better than him.The trick plays with him were insane and defenses probably longed for extra men on the field to help.As a QB, he was a very good runner and made the passes that mattered.Then he lost "it." His team didn't support him, he played differently, and he was quickly done.You regularly give rookie WRs time to develop on these boards, but because Kordell was a football player first he was able to succeed at WR. He had intangibles that most of these prospects don't have year in year out-like Tebow.With Tebow we're discussing winning and winning now. Big Ben wasn't anywhere near the player he is now when he was younger, but he was a gritty SOB that led that team to victory anyway. He had plenty of ugly throws and bad decisions, but he fought through it and got it done.You can't quantify leadership or these guys that have that college fight in them. The NFL game often takes it away in time, but these determined guys are tough to beat til that happens.

 

[Bri]

Go back and look at all the Vince young threads a few years back. He burst on the scene and the titans won a bunch of games similar to Tebow. His supporters argued tooth and nail that he was a winner and dont worry about the stats. He just wins games. The detractors looked at his completion %, the ducks he threw, etc. and argued it was a team game and while he was the qb they weren't winning because of him. How's Vince doing now? Very similar comparison IMO albeit the Tebow mania is obviously much greater than it ever was for VY.

Yeah he lost his head, his ego, and his pride. He's done. He's got difficulty managing himself, nevermind an offense. He was so bad he spent plenty of time with Mack to get his head on straight and I guess he did look a little better in 2011.I believe once IT is gone, it's gone. I doubt he ever gets it back. That doesn't mean he wasn't tough to beat and willing his team to victory his rookie year when he took over the worst team in football and rattled off an 8-1 or 7-1 record. They had one win and were tied for worst at 1-7 (IIRC) when he took over. He had to absorb huge hits running for firsts and shed defenders to make winning throws(the play with Kiwi is a well known one) and...rarely has a QB ever personified the phrase "do it all by himself" as Young then.

 

[Polar Dude]

And yes, I am dead serious... with a 140 IQ and experience at every level of the Football profession.

Yeah... a high IQ, and... uh... NFL experience... yeah, THAT's the ticket!

 

[Possum]

Look, I fully realize that if Tebow can't improve from his sub 50% completion percentage, he won't make it. But why should I think he won't? Most people do, he's an extremely hard worker, and I just see no reason why he can't improve like everyone else in the NFL.

Do you realize how far Tebow has to go in order to improve these things enough? He does have great work ethic but that alone doesn't = success. People need to separate Tim Tebow the person from Tim Tebow the QB. There is no disrespect intended towards Tebow as a person and I think most everyone respects his personality, desire and commitment. He simply isn't a good NFL QB and he may never be though.

he doesn't have nearly as far to go as people want to make out - he needs to raise his completion percentage about 7 points to around 55%. If he can do that, with the running ability he brings to the table, red zone scoring threat and ability to not turn the ball over, he is going to be a solid NFL starting QB.people act like this guy is a finished product already instead of a second year player, without the benefit of an offseason, getting his first real starting experience under his third coach in two years (and with a front office and staff that didn't want or believe in him). There's a lot of room for the kid to improve, and with his work ethic and intangibles, there is absolutely no reason to believe he won't do it. He improved noticeably throwing the ball from his first start last year to the Pittsburgh game - I think it's ridiculous to believe that with another year or two he can't reach that 55% mark.

 

[EBF]

It's possible that he will improve, but to me he looks like the second coming of Kordell Stewart, with perhaps even less passing ability.

snipped the part about you discounting wins again, even though this time it's because of your own projection for him to not win.Kordell didn't fit neatly into any prototype. I'm not sure if that guy (in life or football) ever did anything normal. It's difficult to characterize him so why do people even try? He was a very effective slot WR. You probably can't name a QB that played WR better than him.The trick plays with him were insane and defenses probably longed for extra men on the field to help.As a QB, he was a very good runner and made the passes that mattered.Then he lost "it." His team didn't support him, he played differently, and he was quickly done.You regularly give rookie WRs time to develop on these boards, but because Kordell was a football player first he was able to succeed at WR. He had intangibles that most of these prospects don't have year in year out-like Tebow.With Tebow we're discussing winning and winning now. Big Ben wasn't anywhere near the player he is now when he was younger, but he was a gritty SOB that led that team to victory anyway. He had plenty of ugly throws and bad decisions, but he fought through it and got it done.You can't quantify leadership or these guys that have that college fight in them. The NFL game often takes it away in time, but these determined guys are tough to beat til that happens.

Ben Roethlisberger was great right out of the gate. One of the best rookie QBs ever, actually. In his first NFL season he completed 66.4% of his passes at 8.9 yards per attempt with a positive TD:INT ratio and a 98.1 QB rating. Simply phenomenal stuff. Your characterization of him as "a gritty SOB that led that team to victory" is completely inaccurate. He was an incredibly effective passer who benefited from a dominant defense that helped limit his responsibility. There are plenty of guys with leadership and fight who fail in the NFL. Arguing otherwise is a discredit to all the players busting their ### every week who simply aren't quite talented enough to reach the top level of the game. There are no shortage of those guys. Winning is important, but over the long haul, winning as a quarterback is caused by good QB play in conjunction with a capable supporting cast. The guys who win year in and year out are the ones whose statistics reflect good performance (Rivers, Roethlisberger, Brady, Manning, Romo, etc). In order to become a consistent winner in the long haul, Tebow will need to reach that level or somewhere close. I don't see that happening. His team won a few games this past year, but that's in no way a concrete indication that Tebow possesses some innate ability to engineer wins. Bottom line for me is that he played poorly and benefited from a soft schedule and good defense. You can't always rely on the latter two factors, which is why Denver went out and upgraded their QB position. You can defend Tebow all you want, but the fact that NFL evaluators don't rate him as a franchise QB is yet another data point which vindicates his critics. I suspect there will be more of those in the years to come if he doesn't improve dramatically. Right now he simply hasn't played enough games to make his limitations obvious to even the most stubborn defenders. When the wins dry up and his poor play persists, there will be no straws left to grasp at.

 

[jurb26]

And yes, I am dead serious... with a 140 IQ and experience at every level of the Football profession.

Yeah... a high IQ, and... uh... NFL experience... yeah, THAT's the ticket!

UTLonghorn31, perhaps you could bless us all by actually displaying this immense intellect and infinite football knowledge by explaining to us exactly what progression you see Tebow utilizing over the course of his career to improve as a passer and QB. What are his strengths, weaknesses and what is the formula he brings to a team, in precise detail, that makes him a winner. Right now, you are only throwing immature generalizations and insults at people who don't agree with your view. I'm sure an individual of such unusual mental capacity can understand how your message can be confusing to such a simple minded internet football community who are trying to interpret the tone and context of all your highly complex terminology.

 

[jurb26]

Look, I fully realize that if Tebow can't improve from his sub 50% completion percentage, he won't make it. But why should I think he won't? Most people do, he's an extremely hard worker, and I just see no reason why he can't improve like everyone else in the NFL.

Do you realize how far Tebow has to go in order to improve these things enough? He does have great work ethic but that alone doesn't = success. People need to separate Tim Tebow the person from Tim Tebow the QB. There is no disrespect intended towards Tebow as a person and I think most everyone respects his personality, desire and commitment. He simply isn't a good NFL QB and he may never be though.

he doesn't have nearly as far to go as people want to make out - he needs to raise his completion percentage about 7 points to around 55%. If he can do that, with the running ability he brings to the table, red zone scoring threat and ability to not turn the ball over, he is going to be a solid NFL starting QB.people act like this guy is a finished product already instead of a second year player, without the benefit of an offseason, getting his first real starting experience under his third coach in two years (and with a front office and staff that didn't want or believe in him). There's a lot of room for the kid to improve, and with his work ethic and intangibles, there is absolutely no reason to believe he won't do it. He improved noticeably throwing the ball from his first start last year to the Pittsburgh game - I think it's ridiculous to believe that with another year or two he can't reach that 55% mark.

It's easy to say that he only needs to improve his completion percentage. What specifically does he have to do in order to accomplish that is the real question. I happen to think it's a great deal more complicated than that but if you do think it's simple, please explain.

 

[UTLonghorn31]

And yes, I am dead serious... with a 140 IQ and experience at every level of the Football profession.

Yeah... a high IQ, and... uh... NFL experience... yeah, THAT's the ticket!

I don't believe in doing things status quo. I don't do it in my business, player evaluation, FF team building, or otherwise. I am not going to argue Manning versus Tebow, Manning is an improvement. Alex Smith is an improvement over Tebow. Newton is not unless you are looking for FF points versus actual NFL game wins. Newton has a chance to be better, but not with that rating and turnover combination. The best thing I can do for everyone here is to urge you to read Money Ball or see the film or both. Baseball may be the industry, but the principle behind it is challenging status quo. I know what the profession is like because I have seen it firsthand from all angles. The team that applies the most of these principles are the Patriots. I believe they do very well for themselves.

 

[FavreCo]

And yes, I am dead serious... with a 140 IQ and experience at every level of the Football profession.

Yeah... a high IQ, and... uh... NFL experience... yeah, THAT's the ticket!

UTLonghorn31, perhaps you could bless us all by actually displaying this immense intellect and infinite football knowledge by explaining to us exactly what progression you see Tebow utilizing over the course of his career to improve as a passer and QB. What are his strengths, weaknesses and what is the formula he brings to a team, in precise detail, that makes him a winner. Right now, you are only throwing immature generalizations and insults at people who don't agree with your view. I'm sure an individual of such unusual mental capacity can understand how your message can be confusing to such a simple minded internet football community who are trying to interpret the tone and context of all your highly complex terminology.

He's a tebowner. Don't expect any rational statements. So far he has posted none to date.

 

[PewterFan]

And yes, I am dead serious... with a 140 IQ and experience at every level of the Football profession.

This is excellent shtick.. A 'smart person' who's convinced that Tim Tebow is better than Cam Newton. I love it!

 

[Punch]

And yes, I am dead serious... with a 140 IQ and experience at every level of the Football profession.

This is excellent shtick.. A 'smart person' who's convinced that Tim Tebow is better than Cam Newton. I love it!

I wondered a few posts ago if we got reeled in. Noone can be that foolish. Or can he?????

 

[Possum]

Look, I fully realize that if Tebow can't improve from his sub 50% completion percentage, he won't make it. But why should I think he won't? Most people do, he's an extremely hard worker, and I just see no reason why he can't improve like everyone else in the NFL.

Do you realize how far Tebow has to go in order to improve these things enough? He does have great work ethic but that alone doesn't = success. People need to separate Tim Tebow the person from Tim Tebow the QB. There is no disrespect intended towards Tebow as a person and I think most everyone respects his personality, desire and commitment. He simply isn't a good NFL QB and he may never be though.

he doesn't have nearly as far to go as people want to make out - he needs to raise his completion percentage about 7 points to around 55%. If he can do that, with the running ability he brings to the table, red zone scoring threat and ability to not turn the ball over, he is going to be a solid NFL starting QB.people act like this guy is a finished product already instead of a second year player, without the benefit of an offseason, getting his first real starting experience under his third coach in two years (and with a front office and staff that didn't want or believe in him). There's a lot of room for the kid to improve, and with his work ethic and intangibles, there is absolutely no reason to believe he won't do it. He improved noticeably throwing the ball from his first start last year to the Pittsburgh game - I think it's ridiculous to believe that with another year or two he can't reach that 55% mark.

It's easy to say that he only needs to improve his completion percentage. What specifically does he have to do in order to accomplish that is the real question. I happen to think it's a great deal more complicated than that but if you do think it's simple, please explain.

I hear you, but I don't really think it's complicated at all. When you watch Tebow, you can see that the majority of his missed throws come from poor mechanics, mainly his footwork. His feet are all over the place when he throws and it affects his accuracy a lot - he jumps backward like a fallaway jumpshot more often than anybody I've ever seen on throws, and he still doesn't do a great job of dropping back, planting and stepping into his throws. When he does use proper footwork and step into the throw, he actually throws a pretty nice spiral and becomes a lot more accurate - he's just nowhere near consistent enough yet doing that. That stuff will come with time and reps, as will his understanding and ability to read NFL defenses. I think Tebow's got plenty of potential still to be tapped - he's not a Tom Brady-level passer and never will be, but it's far from impossible for him to tighten up his footwork and accuracy and become a consistent enough passer to be a winning NFL starter (I think Steve McNair is a good comparison). He improved this past year as the season went along, and I think another couple years down the road with pro coaching will make an even bigger difference. The kid is extremely coachable and will put in the time necessary to do what he can do to be the best he can be - it's possible that it may not ever be enough to get him over the hump, but if I were betting on it, I would bet on him to succeed.

 

[Touchdown There]

This thread is pure gold.

 

[Topes]

I haven't got time to read the thread or have this argument.

I generally agree with the outline in the original post.

Tebow's negatives have been overblown, IMO. Folks are far too dismissive of him.

I think ESPN was a big driver on polarizing Tebow opinion this year.

Oh well.

Not my problem.

 

[Getinthemix]

EPIC trolling in this thread by UTLonghorn

 

[Devine Intervention]

Tebow's biggest flaw is that he cannot throw the football to receivers. The quarterback's most important job is to throw the football to receivers. I'm doing the math here and coming up with the same answer every time.

Isnt a QBs most important job to win football games? Rivers throws the balls to wrs very well. Romo throws it to wrs very well. Getting the ball to wrs makes you a good FANTASY QB, I think that is where the issue is. Everyone has a stereotype of what a QB needs to be. I dont care if my QB runs an offense like airforce and does nothing but run an option offense but they win games.

 

[az_prof]

Reading tweets and articles from sports writers, listening to the media on the radio, and reading the posts of many on the internet, I am floored with the lack of respect Tim Tebow gets.I'm reading Caplan who is claiming that the only reason anyone would want him is because he'll fill seats, and that it would never be a football decision.Am I missing something here?Tebow took a horrible team, and led them to the 2nd round of the playoffs. He beat the Pittsburgh Steelers in overtime with an 80 yard TD strike, and threw for over 300 yards in that game. He is a bigtime threat running the ball, as he showed in leading Denver to a come from behind win over the Jets. He is poised and clutch in the 4th quarter.He had a 2-1 TD to INT ratio. Look, I recognize that he throws the ball poorly at times. But just as the media never stopped singing his praises during the season, they are unfairly trashing him this off-season.All of a sudden, he has become a novelty QB, a guy who can't throw, and a guy who might go somewhere and run the wildcat.He has one thing to do that will solidify him as a starting QB: Raise his completion percentage to around 55-60 percent. Michael Vick's completion percentage was horrible for YEARS. He actually had a 52.6 percentage in 2006. Why is Tebow not getting the benefit of the doubt? It's as if people think he cannot improve???If I were the Browns, the Dolphins, the Jags, or any team that needed a QB, I'd sign this guy in less than a second. You won't find a QB that tries harder, and his professional resume at this point is awesome. The only thing he doesn't have is the percentage. Also, anyone that actually watched the Broncos games last year has to acknowledge that the coaching staff's playcalling was horrible. They basically put him in third and long passing situations for the first three quarters. Defenses ALWAYS knew he was going to throw.The media is a joke, and it really frustrates me to watch Tebow revert back to a novelty, a gimmick and a joke in the eyes of the football world today.I can't wait until he lands a spot, and turns a franchise around.

Part of it is that the pundits all were so public in making claims that he would never be an NFL QB, didn't have an NFL arm, couldn't throw, etc, that they are complicit in wanting him to be perceived as a failure. They make bad predictions all the time, more often than not getting it wrong, but because Tebow has attracted so much fan attention, being wrong this time really stands out. They want him to fail so they can go back to their statements of a few years ago, repeat them, sound serious, and vindicate themselves. I think it is true for a lot of guys on here too for the same reason. I have never in my life seen people want to see a guy fail so badly. Even Vick, whom everyone really hated, was embraced again very quickly. But people find Tebow an insult to their sense of football intelligence and they are invested in his perceived failure.

 

[Devine Intervention]

He's not that good but his fans keep pumping him up as some sort of superhuman savior. Face it, if he didn't publicly display his Christianity so much and if he hadn't run an anti-abortion ad on TV, he wouldn't have nearly the same amount of adoration from the "true believers". His fans are the reason he's always in the media, and the media pays attention to how he plays, which isn't so good so far.

I don't care about all that stuff. I'm talking football here. He got all the insane attention because of what he did on the football field, not because of the other stuff.

That is not correct, and it's obvious. If it's his play on the field that got him all this attention then why didn't Cam Newton get more attention, since he was so much better on the field? It's "what he stands for" that has generated the majority of the attention.

Cam Newton has less attention because he threw 17 picks and lost a majority of his games. He is fools gold... looks pretty out there, but that will never ever win. Period! He has more work than Tebow to do in terms of winning.

Ok this one made me You can't seriously believe this,can you?

Here is the difference, Newton plays great and then blows it at the end. Tebow plays bad and then pulls out the W at the end. Newton is too worried about his stats and his fame and him being an "entertainer" and not enough about winning. He sits on the sideline like a baby with a towel on his head when they are losing, Tebow is up getting his team fired up and giving them the confidence that they can win. Sure Newton pats there stats but I would bet my life that the Broncos felt more confident of a win behind Tebow than Carolina ever did with Newton.

 

[Banemorth]

EPIC trolling in this thread by UTLonghorn

Absolutely and even though I KNOW he's trolling the idiocy makes me seethe with rage.

 

[hines]

He's not that good but his fans keep pumping him up as some sort of superhuman savior. Face it, if he didn't publicly display his Christianity so much and if he hadn't run an anti-abortion ad on TV, he wouldn't have nearly the same amount of adoration from the "true believers". His fans are the reason he's always in the media, and the media pays attention to how he plays, which isn't so good so far.

I don't care about all that stuff. I'm talking football here. He got all the insane attention because of what he did on the football field, not because of the other stuff.

That is not correct, and it's obvious. If it's his play on the field that got him all this attention then why didn't Cam Newton get more attention, since he was so much better on the field? It's "what he stands for" that has generated the majority of the attention.

Cam Newton has less attention because he threw 17 picks and lost a majority of his games. He is fools gold... looks pretty out there, but that will never ever win. Period! He has more work than Tebow to do in terms of winning.

Ok this one made me You can't seriously believe this,can you?

Here is the difference, Newton plays great and then blows it at the end. Tebow plays bad and then pulls out the W at the end. Newton is too worried about his stats and his fame and him being an "entertainer" and not enough about winning. He sits on the sideline like a baby with a towel on his head when they are losing, Tebow is up getting his team fired up and giving them the confidence that they can win. Sure Newton pats there stats but I would bet my life that the Broncos felt more confident of a win behind Tebow than Carolina ever did with Newton.

say what you want about worrying about being an entertainment, towels over heads, and will to win but Cam Newton still does one thing miles better than Tim Tebow and that is actually play football on the field. Football on the field still trumps off the field things when it comes to determining who wins football games. you can pick the 53 best people in America and I will pick 53 admittedly poor character, selfish, jerks who happen to play in the NFL and I will beat you by hundreds of points. the inflation of Tebow's off the field talent has gotten to the point where people actually prefer him to Cam Newton? this thread has taught us that Tim Tebow is astonishingly overrated for certain parts of his character by a segment of fans

 

[Devine Intervention]

He's not that good but his fans keep pumping him up as some sort of superhuman savior. Face it, if he didn't publicly display his Christianity so much and if he hadn't run an anti-abortion ad on TV, he wouldn't have nearly the same amount of adoration from the "true believers". His fans are the reason he's always in the media, and the media pays attention to how he plays, which isn't so good so far.

I don't care about all that stuff. I'm talking football here. He got all the insane attention because of what he did on the football field, not because of the other stuff.

That is not correct, and it's obvious. If it's his play on the field that got him all this attention then why didn't Cam Newton get more attention, since he was so much better on the field? It's "what he stands for" that has generated the majority of the attention.

Cam Newton has less attention because he threw 17 picks and lost a majority of his games. He is fools gold... looks pretty out there, but that will never ever win. Period! He has more work than Tebow to do in terms of winning.

Ok this one made me You can't seriously believe this,can you?

Here is the difference, Newton plays great and then blows it at the end. Tebow plays bad and then pulls out the W at the end. Newton is too worried about his stats and his fame and him being an "entertainer" and not enough about winning. He sits on the sideline like a baby with a towel on his head when they are losing, Tebow is up getting his team fired up and giving them the confidence that they can win. Sure Newton pats there stats but I would bet my life that the Broncos felt more confident of a win behind Tebow than Carolina ever did with Newton.

say what you want about worrying about being an entertainment, towels over heads, and will to win but Cam Newton still does one thing miles better than Tim Tebow and that is actually play football on the field. Football on the field still trumps off the field things when it comes to determining who wins football games. you can pick the 53 best people in America and I will pick 53 admittedly poor character, selfish, jerks who happen to play in the NFL and I will beat you by hundreds of points. the inflation of Tebow's off the field talent has gotten to the point where people actually prefer him to Cam Newton? this thread has taught us that Tim Tebow is astonishingly overrated for certain parts of his character by a segment of fans

So your saying the only thing that matters in football is talent and all this other stuff is nonsense? Im not talking about Tebows charity work or his religion, Im talking about his desire to win, his desire to do what is best for his TEAM, not himself. Im talking about his ability to inspire. No one wants to try hard for a selfish punk. I am not a huge fan of Brady and Im ok with that, but I give him credit because he is on the sidelines getting in faces and trying to build up his team, you dont see him moping on the bench. Im not talking about off the field personality, Im talking about how they handle themselves on the field, in practice, and around the team. Can you really just think its about how well you throw a ball?? Go look up Ryan Leaf...

 

[plastik]

Anyone know where to find stats on dropped passes?

Watching Denver games last season I remember seeing a lot of bad drops by Royal, Decker, and Thomas. When you're only throwing 10 passes per game, a drop or two will kill your completion percentage... that said, Tebow was terribly off on his passes at times so I'm definitely not trying to argue that his low completion percentage was due to drops, but still I would bet his receivers had a fairly high ratio of drops/target.

 

[nxmehta]

Tebow's biggest flaw is that he cannot throw the football to receivers. The quarterback's most important job is to throw the football to receivers. I'm doing the math here and coming up with the same answer every time.

That's really all there is to say. He's a great football player, he's just not that good at completing passes. In the long run in the NFL, more often than not that will not get you a championship. That's what the Broncos are betting on.

 

[Tau837]

Are you even serious? Just seems like you're trolling at this point.

I'm not going to get wrapped up in another Tebow debate. It's a waste of time.

I'll just say that in general, I think a lot of his supporters are mistakenly assuming causation just because of correlation. In other words, Denver won a few games after Tebow took over as a starter, but this does not mean that Denver won those games because Tebow took over as a starter. If you're a Tebow fan, you probably think he was the cause of their wins. If you're a Tebow skeptic, you probably don't. I am definitely in the latter group. I think he played pretty poorly overall and was fortunate to win as many games as he did. If he played that way over the course of a full career, I don't his winning percentage would be above .500 or even very close.

It's possible that he will improve, but to me he looks like the second coming of Kordell Stewart, with perhaps even less passing ability.

And yes, I am dead serious... with a 140 IQ and experience at every level of the Football profession.

What NFL team do you run?

I didn't say I run a team... experience includes NFL, AFL, NCAA, League Office, Organization, and Agency...

Is this where we guess who you are?I'll start.

Matt Millen?

 

[Tau837]

The best thing I can do for everyone here is to urge you to read Money Ball or see the film or both. Baseball may be the industry, but the principle behind it is challenging status quo.

The principle Billy Beane exploited was to use analysis to find qualities that were undervalued by the rest of the league and build a team based on that analysis. Because the qualities were undervalued, he was able to acquire players with those qualities at a discount relative to their value, allowing him to build a roster that was more competitive than would be expected based on his relatively small budget.Applying this to Tebow, what are his undervalued qualities that are so valuable? And is there some kind of supporting analysis that highlights those qualities?

He clearly is a very effective runner for a QB. Is that it? I'm not seeing the revolution here that you are citing with this comparison to Moneyball.

 

[fatness]

Cam Newton has less attention because he threw 17 picks and lost a majority of his games. He is fools gold... looks pretty out there, but that will never ever win. Period! He has more work than Tebow to do in terms of winning.