The disrespect Tim Tebow gets is astonishing (2 Viewers)

[fatness]

Those are arbitrary... show me a real algorithm as it pertains to WINS... run it against real data

You're looking for the Trent Dilfer algorithm.

 

[fatness]

You continue to minimize his ability to win and/or will a team to win even with a phrase "it doesn't work like that."

The Broncos carried Tebow. The front office recognized that. They dumped him.

 

[fatness]

Newton is not unless you are looking for FF points versus actual NFL game wins. Newton has a chance to be better, but not with that rating and turnover combination.

Newton had a better rookie year than Tebow.

 

[fatness]

Tim Tebow is so good that if he ends up in a full body cast for all 16 games this year and the Jets make the playoffs, it will only be because Tebow willed them there. Guy's a winner.

 

[Devine Intervention]

Just saw on ESPN that Tebows QBR was 27 something and Bradford was also 27 something. I dont see people running Bradford out of anywhere...Oh wait, he can throw a good spiral. My bad, should have known.

 

[5Rings]

Elway 4-7, 47.5%, 7td-14int, 54.9 qb rating. 146yd, 1 td rushing. 1 gw drive

Tebow 7-4, 46.5%, 12td-6int, 72.9 qb rating. 660yd, 6td rushing. 6 gw drives

First 11 starts.

Maybe Tebow's not that bad. Just sayin....

 

[az_prof]

Tim Tebow is so good that if he ends up in a full body cast for all 16 games this year and the Jets make the playoffs, it will only be because Tebow willed them there. Guy's a winner.

I disagree. He led the team. But we will soon find out. If Manning doesn't bring them to the SB, can we agree that Tebow was a big part of their success in 2011?

 

[cvnpoka]

Go back and look at all the Vince young threads a few years back. He burst on the scene and the titans won a bunch of games similar to Tebow. His supporters argued tooth and nail that he was a winner and dont worry about the stats. He just wins games. The detractors looked at his completion %, the ducks he threw, etc. and argued it was a team game and while he was the qb they weren't winning because of him. How's Vince doing now? Very similar comparison IMO albeit the Tebow mania is obviously much greater than it ever was for VY.

vince young is an awful analogy bc he became an excellent qb by all metrics. he improved greatly from his just wins games inception. no one believes it tho, bc most ppl arent capable of digesting simple numbers and would prefer to believe the narrative fed by the capricious media.

 

[Mile High]

Tim Tebow is so good that if he ends up in a full body cast for all 16 games this year and the Jets make the playoffs, it will only be because Tebow willed them there. Guy's a winner.

I disagree. He led the team. But we will soon find out. If Manning doesn't bring them to the SB, can we agree that Tebow was a big part of their success in 2011?

Of course he was part of the success, no need to compare him to Manning. Unless you think he could beat out Manning head-to head.

 

[wiscstlatlmia]

Where the hell were all you people during the season in the Tebow thread? This is absolute bull####.... none of you were saying a peep and coming to Merril Hoges defense when he was the only one still standing strong on this point. A select few of you were certainly there, Farve co and a few others that posted in here(pretty sure EBF was also). I think what all this Tebow bashing thats going on now shows how easily most of you are influenced by the medias opinion... I find this absolutely disgusting.

 

[wiscstlatlmia]

What we're seeing is why NFL QBs are paid such ridiculous money.The fans are obsessed with them possibly in a way unlike any other position in all of sports. Tebow was awesome at Florida; one of the better QBs in college history.OU, Texas and other "loyal" college fans felt it necessary to hate on their rival QB at times. It happens.TONS of people said he'd stink as a pro.Even more bought his jersey as he became the highest selling player ever in a single season. He was like top 5 after a month.Seemingly every newspaper, TV station, and website seemed to have something about the guy.He played Tebow type football which supposedly couldn't be done in the NFL and thrived taking the Broncos into the playoffs all the while beating some teams they "shouldn't have."Now the haters are back. The ones proven wrong when he succeeded think they get another chance here. Lost amidst this is how many Denver fans would have been up in arms if it was anyone other than Sir Peyton replacing him.He is the most polarizing figure I've ever seen in sports. He's like a rock band nobody heard of coming to town and everyone adores their new album as they leave or...it's very hard to find a comparable analogy here. His popularity and ability to attract fans is incredible.These boards-Bradford broke rookie records and people were calling for his head oh two months ago saying he stinks and Rams need to draft another etc.Colt McCoy was impressive and some liked(not loved) him as a rook. In year two, they're all over him.Those three were such a trio in college. Their games against each other were awesome. Bradford had a pretty arm and all, but McCoy and Tebow- I would not want to be in close game with in the fourth Q. Those two can flat out win.McCoy isn't as good and we knew that. The Browns WRs are terrible with a very much unproven rookie that dropped plenty of balls somehow being their best last year. Their pass blocking left tons to be desired too and there's little doubt as to why he struggled. Some is definitely his fault, but no way is all of it. Still...with people calling for him to be replaced and all; I want him to go be a backup for Brady or somewhere where he just might need to use that fourth quarter ability. Granted I still want to see Armanti Edwards play QB in the NFL, but it's for the same reasons-the guy won over and over when everyone thought he couldn't. If anyone did more than Tebow to help his team win it's Armanti.We love the stats in FF and guy's like Romo are beautiful for FF, but I would never want him to QB my team. He always finds a way to choke in the playoffs and in a big fourth Q win, it's always someone else making a big play. I think the NFL is full of a lot of good looking QBs that can put up stats. These winners though, the driven ones...if a team has a productive defense, those pretty boy QBs can't beat em' in a big game. The money, the fame, the game itself changes alot of these QBs. Rookie Vince Young compared to now is a good example. Some of these college QBs heads(football only) are perfect for winning. They're great leaders, with the ability to overcome and the inner-drive they have is ridiculously impressive. At a way slower pace than Young, even McNabb was somewhat this way. The older he got, he couldn't almost will his team to win anymore and they always made the playoffs when he was young (and healthy). Most all these QBs have this disorganized run for a first, throw an ugly short pass that somehow gets a first, heave it deep outta nowhere and..it's not the rhythmic pretty passes of those pretty boy QBs but they're winning. Joker Kordell Stewart once had it too and the younger folks here think he always stunk as a QB. Vick had a few driven years where he was unstoppable but a pretty boy the rest. I'll take a general leading his troops up a hill over someone just hoping the team does well. NFL doesn't have many generals so these driven folks stand out every now and then. Kerry Collins has been mocked a ton, but how many championship games and Supes did he make. Only Favre, Brady, and Peyton were in more while he was playing. Sometimes when you have a good D, all ya need is a good general.

Thank you........

 

[wiscstlatlmia]

Tim Tebow is so good that if he ends up in a full body cast for all 16 games this year and the Jets make the playoffs, it will only be because Tebow willed them there. Guy's a winner.

You seem to be one of the front runners in this thread...show me 5 posts of you saying the same things starting from week November 17 to the Patriots loss in the Playoffs ...if you can then I will be extremely impressed.

 

[ArcticEdge]

Totally agree. Biggest continuing swing and miss the sports world has witnessed in a long time. I just don't' get it.

Says the guy who hates Gran Torino..

 

[cvnpoka]

Where the hell were all you people during the season in the Tebow thread? This is absolute bull####.... none of you were saying a peep and coming to Merril Hoges defense when he was the only one still standing strong on this point. A select few of you were certainly there, Farve co and a few others that posted in here(pretty sure EBF was also). I think what all this Tebow bashing thats going on now shows how easily most of you are influenced by the medias opinion... I find this absolutely disgusting.

pretty good posting. its easy for me to say now, since there wont be any way to prove it right or wrong, but i think tebow improves many teams if hes teh starting qb. jets are included fwiw. anyway, it still requires a coach and staff to design a scheme around his tendencies similar to what fox did. most arent capable of that sort of flexibility and fox wasnt close to perfect. anyway, point is, put tebow as the starter on the jags, browns, bengals, rams, niners, phins, cards, jets, raiders chiefs and mebbe some others and those teams win moar games.

 

[thayman]

Are you even serious? Just seems like you're trolling at this point.

I'm not going to get wrapped up in another Tebow debate. It's a waste of time.

I'll just say that in general, I think a lot of his supporters are mistakenly assuming causation just because of correlation. In other words, Denver won a few games after Tebow took over as a starter, but this does not mean that Denver won those games because Tebow took over as a starter. If you're a Tebow fan, you probably think he was the cause of their wins. If you're a Tebow skeptic, you probably don't. I am definitely in the latter group. I think he played pretty poorly overall and was fortunate to win as many games as he did. If he played that way over the course of a full career, I don't his winning percentage would be above .500 or even very close.

It's possible that he will improve, but to me he looks like the second coming of Kordell Stewart, with perhaps even less passing ability.

And yes, I am dead serious... with a 140 IQ and experience at every level of the Football profession.

What NFL team do you run?

I didn't say I run a team... experience includes NFL, AFL, NCAA, League Office, Organization, and Agency...

Yes but Madden doesn't count.

 

[wiscstlatlmia]

Where the hell were all you people during the season in the Tebow thread? This is absolute bull####.... none of you were saying a peep and coming to Merril Hoges defense when he was the only one still standing strong on this point. A select few of you were certainly there, Farve co and a few others that posted in here(pretty sure EBF was also). I think what all this Tebow bashing thats going on now shows how easily most of you are influenced by the medias opinion... I find this absolutely disgusting.

pretty good posting. its easy for me to say now, since there wont be any way to prove it right or wrong, but i think tebow improves many teams if hes teh starting qb. jets are included fwiw. anyway, it still requires a coach and staff to design a scheme around his tendencies similar to what fox did. most arent capable of that sort of flexibility and fox wasnt close to perfect. anyway, point is, put tebow as the starter on the jags, browns, bengals, rams, niners, phins, cards, jets, raiders chiefs and mebbe some others and those teams win moar games.

Agreed

 

[Ghost Rider]

He is not as awful as someone make him out to be, nor is he solely responsible for the Broncos 7-1 run last year like some would have us believe. As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Honestly, I think Tebow's upside as an NFL QB is severely limited, simply because he does not seem to read defenses well, but the guy has an "IT' factor that cannot be seen on the stat sheet, and under the right team and coach, if utilized properly, he could be a key component to a winning team. It's just hard to see that being the case in the long term as a starting QB.

 

[Mile High]

I think Tebow did what he could for the Broncos. People need to remember he was hurt in the NE game and wouldn't have been able to play the next week and maybe more if it was the regular season. That's the rub with his style. 9-10 games and he was out, how long to you expect him to be able to play this running style?

 

[UTLonghorn31]

Those are arbitrary... show me a real algorithm as it pertains to WINS... run it against real data

You're looking for the Trent Dilfer algorithm.

The formula for success isn't directed to any one QB. It is based on a principle that is successful whether or not it is appreciated. I don't base it on emotions because the number's success has a much greater track record than the emotions I see here. I trust data over emotions, and it is funny how many are defending the emotions versus something that would demonstrate over 90% of the time who wins a particular football game. Turnovers will lose you games faster than anything else. I don't care how good your mechanics look if you are turning it over and don't have the QB Rating to afford those turnovers; because you will look pretty but lose the individual games.

 

[UTLonghorn31]

Elway 4-7, 47.5%, 7td-14int, 54.9 qb rating. 146yd, 1 td rushing. 1 gw driveTebow 7-4, 46.5%, 12td-6int, 72.9 qb rating. 660yd, 6td rushing. 6 gw drivesFirst 11 starts. Maybe Tebow's not that bad. Just sayin....

Thanks... the numbers show for themselves. It also shows that Elway won 4 games despite 14 turnovers and a 54.9 rating, which is actually pretty high for those numbers. Thus, it would lead to needing to investigate the opponent's QB numbers as well as the splits on those numbers.

 

[UTLonghorn31]

He is not as awful as someone make him out to be, nor is he solely responsible for the Broncos 7-1 run last year like some would have us believe. As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Honestly, I think Tebow's upside as an NFL QB is severely limited, simply because he does not seem to read defenses well, but the guy has an "IT' factor that cannot be seen on the stat sheet, and under the right team and coach, if utilized properly, he could be a key component to a winning team. It's just hard to see that being the case in the long term as a starting QB.

You are correct, his best trait was not turning over the football plus he made plays in the clutch when it mattered. The fact he wasn't turning the ball over meant his team had a lot more odds in winning, especially with a defense that could hold down the opponents QB Ratings and allow the team to also win the QB Rating. The wins were a combination of Tebow and the defense. There were periods where he had a very high QB rating coupled with no turnovers and that is going to equal wins most of the time. Alex Smith is an example... he didn't turn over the ball and he kept his QB rating high, which is why you see 13 wins. The reasons the Giants are so good is Manning is good enough to hold his side of the ledger and the Giants defensive line puts pressure on opposing QBs and forces turnovers and lowers their QB rating. Rodgers QB rating was about 50 points less in that game against them. That is why the Giants have the Lombardi again.

 

[wiscstlatlmia]

Those are arbitrary... show me a real algorithm as it pertains to WINS... run it against real data

You're looking for the Trent Dilfer algorithm.

The formula for success isn't directed to any one QB. It is based on a principle that is successful whether or not it is appreciated. I don't base it on emotions because the number's success has a much greater track record than the emotions I see here. I trust data over emotions, and it is funny how many are defending the emotions versus something that would demonstrate over 90% of the time who wins a particular football game. Turnovers will lose you games faster than anything else. I don't care how good your mechanics look if you are turning it over and don't have the QB Rating to afford those turnovers; because you will look pretty but lose the individual games.

If emotions had nothing to do with sports--Lebron James would be taking the last shot in close games, not Dwyane Wade -Mark Sanchez wouldn't be affected by media pressure-Tiger Woods would still be in his prime-Peyton Manning would have the same stats in the post season as the regular seasonIts the same reason why the Yankees and Red Sox have such high bust rates of incoming free agents, playing in new york and Boston takes a lot of confidence and emotional strength.It's like saying who was more naturally gifted Wilt Chamberlain or BIll Russell? the answer is Wilt, but it clearly didn't matter because Russell was the better playerThere may be a lot of more naturally gifted pure passers in the league, but none of them have better leadership, confidence and heart... you cannot ignore that... its half the battle. You can not deny what Tebow Brought to the Broncos last year, If you watched the games you know exactly what im talking about.. one of the most exciting things I've ever followed in my sports career.

 

[UTLonghorn31]

Are you even serious? Just seems like you're trolling at this point.

I'm not going to get wrapped up in another Tebow debate. It's a waste of time.

I'll just say that in general, I think a lot of his supporters are mistakenly assuming causation just because of correlation. In other words, Denver won a few games after Tebow took over as a starter, but this does not mean that Denver won those games because Tebow took over as a starter. If you're a Tebow fan, you probably think he was the cause of their wins. If you're a Tebow skeptic, you probably don't. I am definitely in the latter group. I think he played pretty poorly overall and was fortunate to win as many games as he did. If he played that way over the course of a full career, I don't his winning percentage would be above .500 or even very close.

It's possible that he will improve, but to me he looks like the second coming of Kordell Stewart, with perhaps even less passing ability.

And yes, I am dead serious... with a 140 IQ and experience at every level of the Football profession.

What NFL team do you run?

I didn't say I run a team... experience includes NFL, AFL, NCAA, League Office, Organization, and Agency...

Yes but Madden doesn't count.

Thanks! And what I am talking about in this thread is not a fishing expedition. It is a philosophy, and it is proven to work very well.

 

[Dr. Awesome]

Elway 4-7, 47.5%, 7td-14int, 54.9 qb rating. 146yd, 1 td rushing. 1 gw drive

Tebow 7-4, 46.5%, 12td-6int, 72.9 qb rating. 660yd, 6td rushing. 6 gw drives

First 11 starts.

Maybe Tebow's not that bad. Just sayin....

Nah, Tebow really is that bad. The question is will he stay that bad. I think he won't improve much but as your Elway comparison showed, quarterbacks can make significant strides.

 

[Polar Dude]

Elway 4-7, 47.5%, 7td-14int, 54.9 qb rating. 146yd, 1 td rushing. 1 gw driveTebow 7-4, 46.5%, 12td-6int, 72.9 qb rating. 660yd, 6td rushing. 6 gw drivesFirst 11 starts. Maybe Tebow's not that bad. Just sayin....

People really need to stop making this terrible comparison.

 

[Debeucci]

Can we stop saying that all Tebow does is win? He was 7-4 last year in the regular season, losing the last 3 games...ie...teams figured out Denver's gimmick. Beating out SD isn't what it use to be. SD is a team on the decline, so unless Tebow was playing Rivers 1v1, he didn't beat out Phillip Rivers. Denver beat the Chargers. Beating out a half dead Steelers team isn't the shine it use to be either.

Tebow is a good human being, I give him that. He's not a good NFL player. And no, he can't convert to a TE (too small) and he's not fast enough to be a receiver. So he should be judged on the only position he wants to play, QB. Tebow's throwing motion is over half a second slower than the average NFL QB. That's molasses slow.

Now,I honestly thing Tebow just isn't that smart of a person. He's too set in his ways, can't learn new things, and had a lower than average wonderlic. Is it any wonder that Denver had to retool their entire offense around him? To dumb it down to a grade school level offense? He can't make the throws, he can't read defenses, and he brings a circus distraction wherever he goes. That's why he's a bad football player.

And FFS, stop comparing Tebow to Elway. It's a different era, and it's a different team! It's like saying Stephen Jackson sucks because the Rams suck. No, Stephen Jackson is awesome, but the Rams suck. Denver last year won despite Tebow, not because of him. The first couple games of the season, everyone sucked because of the lack of preseason. The team finally clicked after the bye week...which coincidentally was when Tebow's winning streak began.

 

[az_prof]

Elway 4-7, 47.5%, 7td-14int, 54.9 qb rating. 146yd, 1 td rushing. 1 gw driveTebow 7-4, 46.5%, 12td-6int, 72.9 qb rating. 660yd, 6td rushing. 6 gw drivesFirst 11 starts. Maybe Tebow's not that bad. Just sayin....

People really need to stop making this terrible comparison.

It looks like a great comparison to me. Comparable number of games. Both players played the same position. Both players were first year starters. The burden is on you to show how it is not a good comparison. I suspect you don't like it because it contradicts your bias. Your bias is that Tebow isn't good and that Elway obviously was. Your bias is that Tebow can't improve. Elway obviously did. Why can't Tebow improve as a passer? Because...the Media tell you so.

 

[fatness]

Elway 4-7, 47.5%, 7td-14int, 54.9 qb rating. 146yd, 1 td rushing. 1 gw driveTebow 7-4, 46.5%, 12td-6int, 72.9 qb rating. 660yd, 6td rushing. 6 gw drivesFirst 11 starts. Maybe Tebow's not that bad. Just sayin....

People really need to stop making this terrible comparison.

It looks like a great comparison to me. Comparable number of games. Both players played the same position. Both players were first year starters. The burden is on you to show how it is not a good comparison.

Elway's in the Hall of Fame. Tebow got dumped. The team that traded for Tebow wants him as a gadget player.

 

[Bri]

You continue to minimize his ability to win and/or will a team to win even with a phrase "it doesn't work like that."

The Broncos carried Tebow. The front office recognized that. They dumped him.

I'm waiting on that one.....maybe it comes out.I heard Peyton's agent asked for this including taking Tebow's pictures down before Peyton arrived (this time) to be part of the team and not just a free agent visitor. That's a pretty odd thing to hear and not be true; it's too detailed and I was able to google and find that his pics were taken down before Peyton came back. I can't think of the last time it was even mentioned in any news that a team took down pictures.My gut says Peyton's agent did ask for Tebow to be gone and the pics down, but I'll never be able to prove that.NFL teams are about drunk on the draft right now with picks being worth way too much in owner's minds. Demeco Ryans, for example, is only worth a fourth? Cmon now. In a round about way, Tebow was also worth a fourth. Even if the value of the picks is "off" him being worth Demeco is a nice compliment to Tebow.

 

[shader]

Go back and look at all the Vince young threads a few years back. He burst on the scene and the titans won a bunch of games similar to Tebow. His supporters argued tooth and nail that he was a winner and dont worry about the stats. He just wins games. The detractors looked at his completion %, the ducks he threw, etc. and argued it was a team game and while he was the qb they weren't winning because of him. How's Vince doing now? Very similar comparison IMO albeit the Tebow mania is obviously much greater than it ever was for VY.

vince young is an awful analogy bc he became an excellent qb by all metrics. he improved greatly from his just wins games inception. no one believes it tho, bc most ppl arent capable of digesting simple numbers and would prefer to believe the narrative fed by the capricious media.

Vince Young had the talent to be a superstar, but he had a ten cent head. Every intangible that Tebow possesses, Young did not. Young had no heart and was a quitter.

 

[Bri]

It's possible that he will improve, but to me he looks like the second coming of Kordell Stewart, with perhaps even less passing ability.

snipped the part about you discounting wins again, even though this time it's because of your own projection for him to not win.Kordell didn't fit neatly into any prototype. I'm not sure if that guy (in life or football) ever did anything normal. It's difficult to characterize him so why do people even try? He was a very effective slot WR. You probably can't name a QB that played WR better than him.The trick plays with him were insane and defenses probably longed for extra men on the field to help.As a QB, he was a very good runner and made the passes that mattered.Then he lost "it." His team didn't support him, he played differently, and he was quickly done.You regularly give rookie WRs time to develop on these boards, but because Kordell was a football player first he was able to succeed at WR. He had intangibles that most of these prospects don't have year in year out-like Tebow.With Tebow we're discussing winning and winning now. Big Ben wasn't anywhere near the player he is now when he was younger, but he was a gritty SOB that led that team to victory anyway. He had plenty of ugly throws and bad decisions, but he fought through it and got it done.You can't quantify leadership or these guys that have that college fight in them. The NFL game often takes it away in time, but these determined guys are tough to beat til that happens.

Ben Roethlisberger was great right out of the gate. One of the best rookie QBs ever, actually. In his first NFL season he completed 66.4% of his passes at 8.9 yards per attempt with a positive TD:INT ratio and a 98.1 QB rating. Simply phenomenal stuff. Your characterization of him as "a gritty SOB that led that team to victory" is completely inaccurate. He was an incredibly effective passer who benefited from a dominant defense that helped limit his responsibility. There are plenty of guys with leadership and fight who fail in the NFL. Arguing otherwise is a discredit to all the players busting their ### every week who simply aren't quite talented enough to reach the top level of the game. There are no shortage of those guys. Winning is important, but over the long haul, winning as a quarterback is caused by good QB play in conjunction with a capable supporting cast. The guys who win year in and year out are the ones whose statistics reflect good performance (Rivers, Roethlisberger, Brady, Manning, Romo, etc). In order to become a consistent winner in the long haul, Tebow will need to reach that level or somewhere close. I don't see that happening. His team won a few games this past year, but that's in no way a concrete indication that Tebow possesses some innate ability to engineer wins. Bottom line for me is that he played poorly and benefited from a soft schedule and good defense. You can't always rely on the latter two factors, which is why Denver went out and upgraded their QB position. You can defend Tebow all you want, but the fact that NFL evaluators don't rate him as a franchise QB is yet another data point which vindicates his critics. I suspect there will be more of those in the years to come if he doesn't improve dramatically. Right now he simply hasn't played enough games to make his limitations obvious to even the most stubborn defenders. When the wins dry up and his poor play persists, there will be no straws left to grasp at.

Keep your Romo and Rivers pretty boy stuff out of this. Romo chokes and you basically named the three that always beat Rivers. If Rivers wants to prove himself to all the folks that adore him here, he needs to win a Supe. Granted he's only played with one of the best RBs and TEs ever, but let's blame his supporting cast instead.I don't think I disrespected Rothlisberger at all. He probably averaged 21 passes a game as a rook, had only four games with more than 200 yards, and had a few games with less than 50% passing percentage while averaging not too much more than a 1:1 TD to INT ratio.

 

[Possum]

Can we stop saying that all Tebow does is win? He was 7-4 last year in the regular season, losing the last 3 games...ie...teams figured out Denver's gimmick. Beating out SD isn't what it use to be. SD is a team on the decline, so unless Tebow was playing Rivers 1v1, he didn't beat out Phillip Rivers. Denver beat the Chargers. Beating out a half dead Steelers team isn't the shine it use to be either.

so when the Broncos won, the teams they played weren't that good, and when they lost, it means Tebow's been figured out? How's this take any more substantial than the Tebow fanatics who say he wins games all by himself?

Tebow's throwing motion is over half a second slower than the average NFL QB. That's molasses slow.

do you have anything to back that up?
most of that is your opinion, but you made two interesting points - one is that he doesn't read defenses well yet, and the other is that there's a circus atmosphere surrounding him. I don't think it's at all strange that a second-year guy with no offseason is struggling to read NFL defenses - with Sam Bradford or Blaine Gabbert, people say "he's young, give him time and he'll improve", but with Tebow it's somehow an iron-clad referendum on his entire career. I would bet that Tebow's ability to read defenses will get better over the next couple years as he gets more reps and experience at the NFL level. I also think that he can improve his accuracy significantly by getting more consistent with his footwork - there were plenty of times last year he was able to find the open guy, but the pass was off due to him doing something like jumping into the air or fading backwards as he threw.

the media and fan circus around him is a pain in the ###, for sure, but Tebow didn't create that, and I don't see how it makes him a bad football player.

I don't think that anybody's saying that Tim Tebow, right now, is a very good starting NFL QB. But I don't think he's nearly as bad as guys like you are making him out to be, and I also think the potential is there for him to become a pretty good player down the road. It's crazy to me, given the things he's done just to this point while still extremely raw and unpolished, that people are so stuck on the notion that he'll never grow into that potential. The flashes of serious talent are there, his work ethic and coachability are excellent, and his intangibles and crunch-time poise are off the charts. Yes, he's inconsistent, he needs a work on some mechanical issues and his accuracy needs to improve, but those are things that can be taught. Almost any other young, first year starting QB who's led his team to a playoff win like the Denver-Pitt game would get a bit longer leash and some tolerance for their growing pains, but for one reason or another, most people would rather just write Tebow off as a bust already - doesn't make sense.

 

[fatness]

I heard Peyton's agent asked for this including taking Tebow's pictures down before Peyton arrived (this time) to be part of the team and not just a free agent visitor. That's a pretty odd thing to hear and not be true; it's too detailed and I was able to google and find that his pics were taken down before Peyton came back. I can't think of the last time it was even mentioned in any news that a team took down pictures.

The pictures being down was mentioned in the news Tuesday. http://denver.cbslocal.com/2012/03/20/for-tebow-handwriting-is-on-the-wall-but-the-pictures-arent/#comments

Manning frankly admitted that he was looking for the place he felt most comfortable. That turned out to be Denver. Tebow simply wasn’t a factor. “I know what kind of player Tim Tebow is and what kind of person he is. I’ve got to meet him personally one time and what an awesome year he had this year,” Manning said. “If Tim Tebow is here next year I’m going to be the best teammate I can be to him and he and I are going to help this team win games. If other opportunities present themselves for him, I’m going to wish him the best. He’ll be a great player wherever he is.”

Both Manning and the Broncos know how popular Tebow is, but ultimately Manning did what he thought was best for him; and the Broncos did what they believe is the best for them.

“We just had to make a decision as an organization. Myself, Coach Fox, the personnel department, the coaches; what would be the best opportunity for the Denver Broncos to be competitive for a world championship. And Peyton Manning was that,” Elway said. For Tebow the handwriting may be on the wall, but the pictures aren’t. In the team room where the news conference what held to announce Manning’s official signing on Tuesday all the pictures of Tebow had been taken down.

Since the Broncos wanted so badly to trade Tebow it seems likely that they'd take the pictures down. I'd be interested in your link to the story about Manning's agent asking for the pictures to come down. Sounds like a blog comment that a butthurt fan would make with no substance to it.

 

[Debeucci]

Possum,

I did not say anything about the Jets, Buffalo, or Chicago, which I consider decent to above average teams when Denver beat them. Well, Chicago didn't have Cutler so that's an aberration. Everyone kept talking about how Tebow beat SD and Pits, but if you look at the circumstances, the accomplishment was far from as it's made out to be.

I misspoke on the throwing motion. I meant to say it took over half a second to throw as oppose to under. But that is correct. His throwing motion is 50% slower than the average NFL QB.

You forgot the wonderlic test. It's not foolproof, but wonderlic is particularly important for QBs. He doesn't have a high football acumen. As for the circus that surrounds him, that is 100% his fault. He didn't outright ask for it, but his actions, commercials, and his constant religious expositions create the circus. He embraces it. If he was only about football, he would stop being so visible and focus on his craft and figure a way to not distract the team.

 

[fatness]

As for the circus that surrounds him, that is 100% his fault. He didn't outright ask for it, but his actions, commercials, and his constant religious expositions create the circus. He embraces it. If he was only about football, he would stop being so visible and focus on his craft and figure a way to not distract the team.

Agreed. It's not like there was this wandering band of millions of NFL fans roaming the country leaderless, looking for someone to follow, and just said "hey let's pick this random guy".

 

[shader]

Possum,

I did not say anything about the Jets, Buffalo, or Chicago, which I consider decent to above average teams when Denver beat them. Well, Chicago didn't have Cutler so that's an aberration. Everyone kept talking about how Tebow beat SD and Pits, but if you look at the circumstances, the accomplishment was far from as it's made out to be.

I misspoke on the throwing motion. I meant to say it took over half a second to throw as oppose to under. But that is correct. His throwing motion is 50% slower than the average NFL QB.

You forgot the wonderlic test. It's not foolproof, but wonderlic is particularly important for QBs. He doesn't have a high football acumen. As for the circus that surrounds him, that is 100% his fault. He didn't outright ask for it, but his actions, commercials, and his constant religious expositions create the circus. He embraces it. If he was only about football, he would stop being so visible and focus on his craft and figure a way to not distract the team.

Why did Tebow's popularity explode over the 2nd half of last season? Did he go on a bunch of tours? Start speaking to huge masses of people? No. His popularity exploded becauase he became the starter and pulled out a ton of wins with unbelievable drama. His success on the football field drove much of the circus around him.

 

[az_prof]

Can we stop saying that all Tebow does is win? He was 7-4 last year in the regular season, losing the last 3 games...ie...teams figured out Denver's gimmick. Beating out SD isn't what it use to be. SD is a team on the decline, so unless Tebow was playing Rivers 1v1, he didn't beat out Phillip Rivers. Denver beat the Chargers. Beating out a half dead Steelers team isn't the shine it use to be either.

so when the Broncos won, the teams they played weren't that good, and when they lost, it means Tebow's been figured out? How's this take any more substantial than the Tebow fanatics who say he wins games all by himself?

Tebow's throwing motion is over half a second slower than the average NFL QB. That's molasses slow.

do you have anything to back that up?

Epic rebuttal. Debeucci's original comments reflect the kind of opinion based bias that dominates most criticism of Tebow. The truth is he is a young QB who still has areas he needs to refine to become a great QB, but he also has a lot of positives, both tangible (running ability; elusiveness; arm strength) and intangible (leadership, poise, hard work). For some reason his critics ignore or dismiss his positives, and distort his weaknesses and assume they are unable to be improved.

 

[DoubleG]

Elway 4-7, 47.5%, 7td-14int, 54.9 qb rating. 146yd, 1 td rushing. 1 gw drive

Tebow 7-4, 46.5%, 12td-6int, 72.9 qb rating. 660yd, 6td rushing. 6 gw drives

First 11 starts.

Maybe Tebow's not that bad. Just sayin....

People really need to stop making this terrible comparison.

It looks like a great comparison to me. Comparable number of games. Both players played the same position. Both players were first year starters. The burden is on you to show how it is not a good comparison.

Elway's in the Hall of Fame. Tebow got dumped. The team that traded for Tebow wants him as a gadget player.

This is horrible logic. First off, saying that Elway is a Hall of Famer after starting basically with similar stats to Tebow contradicts your own bias. Secondly, there are many poor orginizational choices - that doesn't make them correct or true. How often are guys drafted/not drafted/traded and it turned out to be a disaster? For every first round hit, there are dozens of busts. For every good trade there are numerous bad ones. Denver has also gotten rid of Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall (who, with far inferior QBs still posted 1200+ yards receiving). Just because Denver thinks that Tebow isn't worth keeping doesn't automaticall make it the case. The Raiders cut ties with Randy Moss - only to see him go to the Patriots and set the receiving TDs record.

Tebow is a young and still-developing player. I find it odd that people say that guys like Cam, Bradford and Dalton will correct their flaws (be it reading defenses, throwing picks, etc.) but insist that Tebow (despite being one of the most statistically succesfull passers in college football history) can, in no way increase his completion %.

Just yesterday I heard someone on the radio refer to him as "the worst QB to ever play the position" - with guys like Tarvaris Jackson, Ryan Leaf, Blaine Gabbert and countless others that are/were/have benn in the league, that is a ridiculous statement - yet one that continues to be uttered.

As was stated earlier (by Ghost Rider I think) - the truth lies somewhere in the middle. And the area it lies can change if Tebow improves.

 

[az_prof]

Elway 4-7, 47.5%, 7td-14int, 54.9 qb rating. 146yd, 1 td rushing. 1 gw driveTebow 7-4, 46.5%, 12td-6int, 72.9 qb rating. 660yd, 6td rushing. 6 gw drivesFirst 11 starts. Maybe Tebow's not that bad. Just sayin....

People really need to stop making this terrible comparison.

It looks like a great comparison to me. Comparable number of games. Both players played the same position. Both players were first year starters. The burden is on you to show how it is not a good comparison.

Elway's in the Hall of Fame. Tebow got dumped. The team that traded for Tebow wants him as a gadget player.

Elway didn't look like a HOF player after his first season starting. Tebow got dumped for a HOF player; no insult there. Denver waited until every other team looking for a starting QB had found one in FA except Jaguars, and their owner reportedly wanted Tebow but Tebow preferred Jets. As to his role, that is yet to be determined.You really need to learn lesson number one of rhetoric: get your facts straight and don't misrepresent the facts. When you misrepresent the facts, it just makes your argument lack credibility.

 

[fatness]

Elway 4-7, 47.5%, 7td-14int, 54.9 qb rating. 146yd, 1 td rushing. 1 gw driveTebow 7-4, 46.5%, 12td-6int, 72.9 qb rating. 660yd, 6td rushing. 6 gw drivesFirst 11 starts. Maybe Tebow's not that bad. Just sayin....

People really need to stop making this terrible comparison.

It looks like a great comparison to me. Comparable number of games. Both players played the same position. Both players were first year starters. The burden is on you to show how it is not a good comparison.

Elway's in the Hall of Fame. Tebow got dumped. The team that traded for Tebow wants him as a gadget player.

This is horrible logic. First off, saying that Elway is a Hall of Famer after starting basically with similar stats to Tebow contradicts your own bias.

I am not the idiot thinking those stats mean something.

 

[Possum]

Possum,I did not say anything about the Jets, Buffalo, or Chicago, which I consider decent to above average teams when Denver beat them. Well, Chicago didn't have Cutler so that's an aberration. Everyone kept talking about how Tebow beat SD and Pits, but if you look at the circumstances, the accomplishment was far from as it's made out to be.I misspoke on the throwing motion. I meant to say it took over half a second to throw as oppose to under. But that is correct. His throwing motion is 50% slower than the average NFL QB.You forgot the wonderlic test. It's not foolproof, but wonderlic is particularly important for QBs. He doesn't have a high football acumen. As for the circus that surrounds him, that is 100% his fault. He didn't outright ask for it, but his actions, commercials, and his constant religious expositions create the circus. He embraces it. If he was only about football, he would stop being so visible and focus on his craft and figure a way to not distract the team.

we'll just have to agree to disagree on the playoff win - I think beating Pittsburgh was absolutely a heck of an accomplishment.I hear what you're saying on the throwing motion time - I still don't think a .6 vs a .4 is nearly as big a deal as the footwork issue, which I think is correctable. I also think the Wonderlic is fairly meaningless. The average is 24 and Tebow scored a 22, not that big a drop - guys like Marino, Jim Kelly, Cunningham, Culpepper and McNair all scored in the teens and did pretty well.(edit to say that I do agree with you that the Wonderlic is probably more important for QBs than other positions, but I don't think it's an indicator of football acumen at all. I've seen a couple of articles about Tebow where NFL coaches and scouts were all pretty impressed by his ability to understand and converse with them at a very high level about different offensive styles and strategies during their talks with him at the draft.)

 

[DoubleG]

I am not the idiot thinking those stats mean something.

...and yet you still haven't voiced a reason why you think they don't. Simply saying something doesn't automatically make it true (or untrue, as is the case).

 

[Possum]

As for the circus that surrounds him, that is 100% his fault. He didn't outright ask for it, but his actions, commercials, and his constant religious expositions create the circus. He embraces it. If he was only about football, he would stop being so visible and focus on his craft and figure a way to not distract the team.

Agreed. It's not like there was this wandering band of millions of NFL fans roaming the country leaderless, looking for someone to follow, and just said "hey let's pick this random guy".

his popularity is in part due to his public display of faith, true. But it's exploded to the point that it has because every news outlet in the country knows they can get hits just by putting the word "Tebow" in a headline. I don't think the guy asks for cameras to follow him everywhere he goes and ESPN to devote whole Sportscenters to him. I think that stuff happens because he's such a polarizing, well-known figure that he's a guaranteed ratings cash cow, so Tebow Time gets milked to death constantly just like every other big story out there in today's 24/7 media environment.I think it's irrational to blame Tebow for people liking him so much that his face gets plastered across TV all the time as a result.

 

[humpback]

I am not the idiot thinking those stats mean something.

...and yet you still haven't voiced a reason why you think they don't. Simply saying something doesn't automatically make it true (or untrue, as is the case).

Because stats don't tell the whole story. Anyone who was around when Elway and Peyton were coming into the league knows that they were head and shoulders above Tebow as NFL QB prospects, so comparing their stats is meaningless. Tebow has plenty of positive attributes, but his biggest weakness is throwing the football. It's probably the most important aspect for a QB, and I also happen to think it's the most difficult to fix. I think that's why his upside as an NFL QB will always be limited.

 

[Two Deep]

At the end of the day isn't Tebow 8-6 as a starter with a 47% completion rate. If this is the bar for a savior QB it's mighty low.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Still terrible. Can't believe the sheep that like this guy

 

[5Rings]

Elway 4-7, 47.5%, 7td-14int, 54.9 qb rating. 146yd, 1 td rushing. 1 gw driveTebow 7-4, 46.5%, 12td-6int, 72.9 qb rating. 660yd, 6td rushing. 6 gw drivesFirst 11 starts. Maybe Tebow's not that bad. Just sayin....

People really need to stop making this terrible comparison.

It looks like a great comparison to me. Comparable number of games. Both players played the same position. Both players were first year starters. The burden is on you to show how it is not a good comparison.

Elway's in the Hall of Fame. Tebow got dumped. The team that traded for Tebow wants him as a gadget player.

This is horrible logic. First off, saying that Elway is a Hall of Famer after starting basically with similar stats to Tebow contradicts your own bias.

I am not the idiot thinking those stats mean something.

Why don't they mean anything, fatness?I'm curious--are any of you guys old enough to remember what a trainwreck Elway was in his first season?

 

[FavreCo]

vince young is an awful analogy bc he became an excellent qb by all metrics. he improved greatly from his just wins games inception. no one believes it tho, bc most ppl arent capable of digesting simple numbers and would prefer to believe the narrative fed by the capricious media.

What are ya, drunk?

Where the hell were all you people during the season in the Tebow thread? This is absolute bull####.... none of you were saying a peep and coming to Merril Hoges defense when he was the only one still standing strong on this point. A select few of you were certainly there, Farve co and a few others that posted in here(pretty sure EBF was also). I think what all this Tebow bashing thats going on now shows how easily most of you are influenced by the medias opinion... I find this absolutely disgusting.

Yeah!! FavreCo stands by his analysis too, never wavering under attack from tebowners like Hoge did.

At the end of the day isn't Tebow 8-6 as a starter with a 47% completion rate. If this is the bar for a savior QB it's mighty low.

You can't include last year, don't you know that? Completion %? Meaningless.

 

[UTLonghorn31]

Still terrible. Can't believe the sheep that like this guy

The sheep are the ones that follow whatever the media says and don't think for themselves. Tebow doesn't look pretty and is not the same as every other QB so they shun something different. He scored in the lower end of elite levels in the figures that translate as wins and in career projectile... no QB that scored that high in these levels has yet failed since 1990. Completion percentage is arbitrary. It is the same as batting average in baseball... in baseball obp tells you how often someone is on base and slg how far they move around the bases. It translates directly to runs. In football, the same can be done on the aggregate level. Build a team around the wins concept, and you would be winning 12 games or more every year. Instead, most in NFL and in here look at things that look nice, but don't translate to wins specifically. Since most of the people will view assets with disdain if they are different, it is an area to capitalize.This thread is a great example of low IQ group think. "Cam is so great! He didn't win half his games and he turned the ball over more than once per game, but he looks so smooth as a QB. Who cares if the other team is possessing the ball more frequently and scoring because of his turnovers. Points don't matter if the QB looks smooth, right? I mean, just look at him. He scores FF points by the truckloads, that must mean he is a QB stud." or "That Tebow guy doesn't look smooth... bad mechanics, poor feet... his completion percentage is low. He stinks! Those wins are miracles... I don't care if he didn't turn the ball over and when he completed passes, the average completion length was over 13 yards. That 2 to 1 Passing TD to Int ratio is nothing... and 3 to 1 when including rushing TDs certainly doesn't matter if you look awkward doing it. I mean just look at him (just do it when the game isn't in clutch situation)." Yeah, he was able to stay on the field and look ugly and make 4th quarter comebacks because he didn't turn the ball over and put his team in terrible situations. Not beating yourself with turnovers goes a long way to winning more than losing. Having the IT factor in the clutch also goes a long way. And this is while he is raw... I think people once said that Steve Young stunk because he was raw.

 

[ArcticEdge]

Still terrible. Can't believe the sheep that like this guy

Still very likable. Cant believe the hyenas that hate him.