The disrespect Tim Tebow gets is astonishing (1 Viewer)

[Cliff Clavin]

Still terrible. Can't believe the sheep that like this guy

Tebow doesn't look pretty

I thought you wanted to keep your emotional, female traits out of this?

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Still terrible. Can't believe the sheep that like this guy

Still very likable. Cant believe the hyenas that hate him.

Maybe. Never met him. Terrible, terrible QB.

 

[matuski]

Because QB's are supposed to be able to throw the football. He can't.

 

[wiscstlatlmia]

vince young is an awful analogy bc he became an excellent qb by all metrics. he improved greatly from his just wins games inception. no one believes it tho, bc most ppl arent capable of digesting simple numbers and would prefer to believe the narrative fed by the capricious media.

What are ya, drunk?

Where the hell were all you people during the season in the Tebow thread? This is absolute bull####.... none of you were saying a peep and coming to Merril Hoges defense when he was the only one still standing strong on this point. A select few of you were certainly there, Farve co and a few others that posted in here(pretty sure EBF was also). I think what all this Tebow bashing thats going on now shows how easily most of you are influenced by the medias opinion... I find this absolutely disgusting.

Yeah!! FavreCo stands by his analysis too, never wavering under attack from tebowners like Hoge did.

At the end of the day isn't Tebow 8-6 as a starter with a 47% completion rate. If this is the bar for a savior QB it's mighty low.

You can't include last year, don't you know that? Completion %? Meaningless.

hahahahahh had to give you your credit man

 

[jackdubl]

Slight hijack here, but it's interesting that fbg's has a news report that the Broncos let Tebow pick his team between the Jets and Jaguars, but I heard an interview with Tebow himself yesterday where he said they didn't consult him at all when he was asked if they let him choose.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Completion %? Meaningless.

Nope, but people like you act like it is everything. And since it is everything, Tony Romo is better than Tom Brady, and Ryan Fitzpatrick is better than Eli Manning. Don't believe me? Go look at their 2011 completion percentages.

 

[humpback]

Still terrible. Can't believe the sheep that like this guy

The sheep are the ones that follow whatever the media says and don't think for themselves. Tebow doesn't look pretty and is not the same as every other QB so they shun something different. He scored in the lower end of elite levels in the figures that translate as wins and in career projectile... no QB that scored that high in these levels has yet failed since 1990. Completion percentage is arbitrary. It is the same as batting average in baseball... in baseball obp tells you how often someone is on base and slg how far they move around the bases. It translates directly to runs. In football, the same can be done on the aggregate level. Build a team around the wins concept, and you would be winning 12 games or more every year. Instead, most in NFL and in here look at things that look nice, but don't translate to wins specifically. Since most of the people will view assets with disdain if they are different, it is an area to capitalize.This thread is a great example of low IQ group think. "Cam is so great! He didn't win half his games and he turned the ball over more than once per game, but he looks so smooth as a QB. Who cares if the other team is possessing the ball more frequently and scoring because of his turnovers. Points don't matter if the QB looks smooth, right? I mean, just look at him. He scores FF points by the truckloads, that must mean he is a QB stud." or "That Tebow guy doesn't look smooth... bad mechanics, poor feet... his completion percentage is low. He stinks! Those wins are miracles... I don't care if he didn't turn the ball over and when he completed passes, the average completion length was over 13 yards. That 2 to 1 Passing TD to Int ratio is nothing... and 3 to 1 when including rushing TDs certainly doesn't matter if you look awkward doing it. I mean just look at him (just do it when the game isn't in clutch situation)." Yeah, he was able to stay on the field and look ugly and make 4th quarter comebacks because he didn't turn the ball over and put his team in terrible situations. Not beating yourself with turnovers goes a long way to winning more than losing. Having the IT factor in the clutch also goes a long way. And this is while he is raw... I think people once said that Steve Young stunk because he was raw.

Why are wins so important in your opinion for a QB, but not for a baseball player? Sorry, but the two sports are pretty different, which is why the moneyball concept doesn't really apply in football- you rely much more on your teammates in football than you do in baseball. An average QB can win a Super Bowl on a great team or finish last on a bad one. Your team isn't going to have nearly as much of an impact on your obp or slg in baseball.

 

[Polar Dude]

Elway 4-7, 47.5%, 7td-14int, 54.9 qb rating. 146yd, 1 td rushing. 1 gw driveTebow 7-4, 46.5%, 12td-6int, 72.9 qb rating. 660yd, 6td rushing. 6 gw drivesFirst 11 starts. Maybe Tebow's not that bad. Just sayin....

People really need to stop making this terrible comparison.

It looks like a great comparison to me. Comparable number of games. Both players played the same position. Both players were first year starters. The burden is on you to show how it is not a good comparison. I suspect you don't like it because it contradicts your bias. Your bias is that Tebow isn't good and that Elway obviously was. Your bias is that Tebow can't improve. Elway obviously did. Why can't Tebow improve as a passer? Because...the Media tell you so.

You guys really need to start paying better attention. I already pointed out once in this thread why it was a horrible comparison.(1). We're talking about completely different eras. When Elway was a rookie, 50% comp. and an even TD/INT ratio meant you were worthy of Pro Bowl consideration. Putting up those numbers today means you are a dog.(2). One of the reasons Elway's stats improved were due to rule changes that limited the effectiveness of defensive backs. Are we all banking that a similar rule change is on the horizon to assist Tebow?(3). Their pedigrees coming out of college were completely different. Although Tebow's college career was far more prolific, there were plenty of experts who doubted he could be a competitive pro QBs. No such doubts ever existed with Elway. Even when the Colts were over a barrel, the Broncos were still willing to pay top dollar to aquire his rights. Heck the Chargers had three number one picks that year and almost traded all three to draft Elway when they still had Dan Fouts in his prime on the roster.Same number of games? Same position? Those are just foolish reasons to assume that one outcome is going to lead to a similar outcome thirty years later.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Still terrible. Can't believe the sheep that like this guy

The sheep are the ones that follow whatever the media says and don't think for themselves. Tebow doesn't look pretty and is not the same as every other QB so they shun something different. He scored in the lower end of elite levels in the figures that translate as wins and in career projectile... no QB that scored that high in these levels has yet failed since 1990. Completion percentage is arbitrary. It is the same as batting average in baseball... in baseball obp tells you how often someone is on base and slg how far they move around the bases. It translates directly to runs. In football, the same can be done on the aggregate level. Build a team around the wins concept, and you would be winning 12 games or more every year. Instead, most in NFL and in here look at things that look nice, but don't translate to wins specifically. Since most of the people will view assets with disdain if they are different, it is an area to capitalize.This thread is a great example of low IQ group think. "Cam is so great! He didn't win half his games and he turned the ball over more than once per game, but he looks so smooth as a QB. Who cares if the other team is possessing the ball more frequently and scoring because of his turnovers. Points don't matter if the QB looks smooth, right? I mean, just look at him. He scores FF points by the truckloads, that must mean he is a QB stud." or "That Tebow guy doesn't look smooth... bad mechanics, poor feet... his completion percentage is low. He stinks! Those wins are miracles... I don't care if he didn't turn the ball over and when he completed passes, the average completion length was over 13 yards. That 2 to 1 Passing TD to Int ratio is nothing... and 3 to 1 when including rushing TDs certainly doesn't matter if you look awkward doing it. I mean just look at him (just do it when the game isn't in clutch situation)." Yeah, he was able to stay on the field and look ugly and make 4th quarter comebacks because he didn't turn the ball over and put his team in terrible situations. Not beating yourself with turnovers goes a long way to winning more than losing. Having the IT factor in the clutch also goes a long way. And this is while he is raw... I think people once said that Steve Young stunk because he was raw.

Why are wins so important in your opinion for a QB, but not for a baseball player? Sorry, but the two sports are pretty different, which is why the moneyball concept doesn't really apply in football- you rely much more on your teammates in football than you do in baseball. An average QB can win a Super Bowl on a great team or finish last on a bad one. Your team isn't going to have nearly as much of an impact on your obp or slg in baseball.

Trent Dilfer >>> Marino because he won!

 

[Run It Up]

I feel like we need at least 10 more tebow threads. I also feel like we dont have enough straw mans in this thread.

Might as well contribute, did you guys know, that because Tim Tebow played for the Denver Broncos, he was responsible for all of the success and none of their shortcomings.

Good thing they landed Peyton because if they opted for anyone else John Fox, John Elway and the Broncos D wouldnt be able to keep riding his coat tails to victory.

 

[Bri]

Elway 4-7, 47.5%, 7td-14int, 54.9 qb rating. 146yd, 1 td rushing. 1 gw driveTebow 7-4, 46.5%, 12td-6int, 72.9 qb rating. 660yd, 6td rushing. 6 gw drivesFirst 11 starts. Maybe Tebow's not that bad. Just sayin....

People really need to stop making this terrible comparison.

It looks like a great comparison to me. Comparable number of games. Both players played the same position. Both players were first year starters. The burden is on you to show how it is not a good comparison. I suspect you don't like it because it contradicts your bias. Your bias is that Tebow isn't good and that Elway obviously was. Your bias is that Tebow can't improve. Elway obviously did. Why can't Tebow improve as a passer? Because...the Media tell you so.

You guys really need to start paying better attention. I already pointed out once in this thread why it was a horrible comparison.(1). We're talking about completely different eras. When Elway was a rookie, 50% comp. and an even TD/INT ratio meant you were worthy of Pro Bowl consideration. Putting up those numbers today means you are a dog.(2). One of the reasons Elway's stats improved were due to rule changes that limited the effectiveness of defensive backs. Are we all banking that a similar rule change is on the horizon to assist Tebow?(3). Their pedigrees coming out of college were completely different. Although Tebow's college career was far more prolific, there were plenty of experts who doubted he could be a competitive pro QBs. No such doubts ever existed with Elway. Even when the Colts were over a barrel, the Broncos were still willing to pay top dollar to aquire his rights. Heck the Chargers had three number one picks that year and almost traded all three to draft Elway when they still had Dan Fouts in his prime on the roster.Same number of games? Same position? Those are just foolish reasons to assume that one outcome is going to lead to a similar outcome thirty years later.

Elway traded Tebow. Curious about interjecting that here

 

[Bri]

I heard Peyton's agent asked for this including taking Tebow's pictures down before Peyton arrived (this time) to be part of the team and not just a free agent visitor. That's a pretty odd thing to hear and not be true; it's too detailed and I was able to google and find that his pics were taken down before Peyton came back. I can't think of the last time it was even mentioned in any news that a team took down pictures.

The pictures being down was mentioned in the news Tuesday. http://denver.cbsloc...arent/#comments

Manning frankly admitted that he was looking for the place he felt most comfortable. That turned out to be Denver. Tebow simply wasn't a factor. "I know what kind of player Tim Tebow is and what kind of person he is. I've got to meet him personally one time and what an awesome year he had this year," Manning said. "If Tim Tebow is here next year I'm going to be the best teammate I can be to him and he and I are going to help this team win games. If other opportunities present themselves for him, I'm going to wish him the best. He'll be a great player wherever he is."

Both Manning and the Broncos know how popular Tebow is, but ultimately Manning did what he thought was best for him; and the Broncos did what they believe is the best for them.

"We just had to make a decision as an organization. Myself, Coach Fox, the personnel department, the coaches; what would be the best opportunity for the Denver Broncos to be competitive for a world championship. And Peyton Manning was that," Elway said. For Tebow the handwriting may be on the wall, but the pictures aren't. In the team room where the news conference what held to announce Manning's official signing on Tuesday all the pictures of Tebow had been taken down.

Since the Broncos wanted so badly to trade Tebow it seems likely that they'd take the pictures down. I'd be interested in your link to the story about Manning's agent asking for the pictures to come down. Sounds like a blog comment that a butthurt fan would make with no substance to it.

Yeah that either is or it's about what I saw when googling. I wonder if its true is all.

 

[Bri]

Possum,

I did not say anything about the Jets, Buffalo, or Chicago, which I consider decent to above average teams when Denver beat them. Well, Chicago didn't have Cutler so that's an aberration. Everyone kept talking about how Tebow beat SD and Pits, but if you look at the circumstances, the accomplishment was far from as it's made out to be.

I misspoke on the throwing motion. I meant to say it took over half a second to throw as oppose to under. But that is correct. His throwing motion is 50% slower than the average NFL QB.

You forgot the wonderlic test. It's not foolproof, but wonderlic is particularly important for QBs. He doesn't have a high football acumen. As for the circus that surrounds him, that is 100% his fault. He didn't outright ask for it, but his actions, commercials, and his constant religious expositions create the circus. He embraces it. If he was only about football, he would stop being so visible and focus on his craft and figure a way to not distract the team.

Why did Tebow's popularity explode over the 2nd half of last season? Did he go on a bunch of tours? Start speaking to huge masses of people? No. His popularity exploded becauase he became the starter and pulled out a ton of wins with unbelievable drama. His success on the football field drove much of the circus around him.

I think it reached new fans then. He sold a gazillion jerseys from the word "go."

 

[DoubleG]

Same number of games? Same position? Those are just foolish reasons to assume that one outcome is going to lead to a similar outcome thirty years later.

Except that no one (at least not sane people) is assuming a similar outcome - they are just pointing out that young quarterbacks can (and tend to) improve, or at least it is possible for them to do so, given time and experience, and to automatically assume that after 14 starts, we have seen the best Tim Tebow has to offer as an NFL quarterback is at the very least short sighted. And some of you - please stop pointing to the fact that Elway, a great QB, made the decision - as if that makes automatically correct as well. How is Michael Jordan doing as an NBA exec? Or Larry Bird? Football you say? Jack Del Rio? Oh wait, we're talking QBs - how about Jim Zorn?No one is suggesting that Tebow is the next Elway (although the 4th quarter heroics are similar - but to dismiss a QB, who had the passing numbers he did in college, after only 14 NFL starts seems silly - much less to call him "one of the worst to every play the position". Guys like Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, Tim Couch and a myriad of others (who were all drafted much earlier than Tebow, btw) all strongly disagree.

 

[fatness]

Slight hijack here, but it's interesting that fbg's has a news report that the Broncos let Tebow pick his team between the Jets and Jaguars, but I heard an interview with Tebow himself yesterday where he said they didn't consult him at all when he was asked if they let him choose.

John Elway says otherwise.

In a late-night media conference call, Tebow said that he “didn’t have any [say]” in his destination, and that the Broncos had “all that power.”

Broncos V.P. of football operations John Elway begs to differ. “There was more [offered] from Jacksonville, but I think that we looked at it and it was close enough, and we were in contact with Tim throughout the day, and talked to him,” Elway told ESPN Radio in Denver on Thursday, via Lindsay Jones of the Denver Post. “He knew what was going on the whole time. The reports that he was not involved are not accurate.”

It’s more than “reports” that Tebow wasn’t involved. Tebow said so himself.

And here’s one of the benefits of having an image of devout faith and overt acts of charity and stubborn chastity. Folks who enjoy such an image can get away with a periodic whopper, and no one will think that they are stretching the truth.

 

[Touchdown There]

Tim Tebow is a fibber. Dirty sinner.

 

[Polar Dude]

Same number of games? Same position? Those are just foolish reasons to assume that one outcome is going to lead to a similar outcome thirty years later.

Except that no one (at least not sane people) is assuming a similar outcome - they are just pointing out that young quarterbacks can (and tend to) improve, or at least it is possible for them to do so, given time and experience, and to automatically assume that after 14 starts, we have seen the best Tim Tebow has to offer as an NFL quarterback is at the very least short sighted.

All I said was that it seemed like such a drastic improvement in completion percentage was infrequent. Then people started trotting out Elway himself over and over as if that one comparison made my statement invalid.

 

[DoubleG]

Slight hijack here, but it's interesting that fbg's has a news report that the Broncos let Tebow pick his team between the Jets and Jaguars, but I heard an interview with Tebow himself yesterday where he said they didn't consult him at all when he was asked if they let him choose.

John Elway says otherwise.

In a late-night media conference call, Tebow said that he “didn’t have any [say]” in his destination, and that the Broncos had “all that power.”

Broncos V.P. of football operations John Elway begs to differ. “There was more [offered] from Jacksonville, but I think that we looked at it and it was close enough, and we were in contact with Tim throughout the day, and talked to him,” Elway told ESPN Radio in Denver on Thursday, via Lindsay Jones of the Denver Post. “He knew what was going on the whole time. The reports that he was not involved are not accurate.”

It’s more than “reports” that Tebow wasn’t involved. Tebow said so himself.

And here’s one of the benefits of having an image of devout faith and overt acts of charity and stubborn chastity. Folks who enjoy such an image can get away with a periodic whopper, and no one will think that they are stretching the truth.

I love the assumption at the end of the quote that Tebow is the one lying - as if the great John Elway (who incidentally was the one just a few months ago stated that Tebow was his camp-opening starter) couldn't be the one "stretching the truth". Yes, I am sure Tebow would rather go to that bastion of human decency known as NY and be a backup, then go to Florida...erm...return home? and be the starter.

Elway, please.

 

[SWC]

i think him knowing about the two teams wanting him is a lot different then him deciding which one he gets to do to so i bet that tim is telling the truth frankly i like john elway but i think he has a been a gigantic jerkasourus to tim tebow not helping him become better and not wanting him there so on and so forth and this is from a guy me that does not like tim tebow as a qb but think he would be an all right te or fullback

 

[JohnnyU]

I've never seen so much attention given to such a mediocre QB. I guess it's that internet doohickey. Before Al Gore these types of players were called running backs, unless your name was Bobby Douglass.

 

[Bri]

Slight hijack here, but it's interesting that fbg's has a news report that the Broncos let Tebow pick his team between the Jets and Jaguars, but I heard an interview with Tebow himself yesterday where he said they didn't consult him at all when he was asked if they let him choose.

John Elway says otherwise.

In a late-night media conference call, Tebow said that he "didn't have any [say]" in his destination, and that the Broncos had "all that power."

Broncos V.P. of football operations John Elway begs to differ. "There was more [offered] from Jacksonville, but I think that we looked at it and it was close enough, and we were in contact with Tim throughout the day, and talked to him," Elway told ESPN Radio in Denver on Thursday, via Lindsay Jones of the Denver Post. "He knew what was going on the whole time. The reports that he was not involved are not accurate."

It's more than "reports" that Tebow wasn't involved. Tebow said so himself.

And here's one of the benefits of having an image of devout faith and overt acts of charity and stubborn chastity. Folks who enjoy such an image can get away with a periodic whopper, and no one will think that they are stretching the truth.

Lindsay does write if you want to hit the source up here it's not too hard to find.Just coming in and out of sports radio conversation yesterday while at work, they were saying that when Elway asked, Tebow wanted Jax but they sent him to the Jets. The conversation was that it wasn't right to ask him then send him to a team with a worse offer, what GM takes a worse offer etc.

I have zero details, I heard parts in one room and ten minutes later in another room while at work. Still it probably covers both stories-PFTs bad snip and FBGs report. Tebow's probably not going to call out Elway on his way out of town so it's easier just to say he had no choice. Hard to imagine a decent reason why Elway would take less in trade especially since both are AFC teams not in the Broncos division. I can't believe Lindsay wouldn't be all over that comment either, she's a good reporter.

Give it time, more will come out on this. Taking a lesser offer is too big of an elephant in the room here.

 

[SWC]

if he took a lesser offer it could mean that john elway really didnt want tebow to start somewhere on the off chance that tebow does good and then maybe peyton is still hurt and cant go or cant go effetively and then it would be elways head so i guess i see the cover your butt perspective of it but still not good for the TEAM only good for john elway but that is only if they did take a lesser offer and that is not confirmed brohanco fans

 

[Bri]

Kuharsky on Twitter saying they talked to Tebow's agent all day and that's same as talking to Tebow.

It is, but not if we're picking nits here.

 

[DoubleG]

Kuharsky on Twitter saying they talked to Tebow's agent all day and that's same as talking to Tebow.It is, but not if we're picking nits here.

There is a difference between talking to the agent and listening to his requests. Keeping them "in the loop" is different than allowing them to decide. Initially it was implied that the Broncos (Elway) had given Tebow the choice - now Elway seems to be back pedalling, instead suggesting that the Broncos "were in contact with Tim throughout the day, and talked to him" - that's very different than allowing Tebow a say (and slightly different than talking to his agent, not Tebow himself).I've always been a big fan of Elway - but he is quickly starting to change my opinions of him.

 

[Possum]

Same number of games? Same position? Those are just foolish reasons to assume that one outcome is going to lead to a similar outcome thirty years later.

Except that no one (at least not sane people) is assuming a similar outcome - they are just pointing out that young quarterbacks can (and tend to) improve, or at least it is possible for them to do so, given time and experience, and to automatically assume that after 14 starts, we have seen the best Tim Tebow has to offer as an NFL quarterback is at the very least short sighted.

All I said was that it seemed like such a drastic improvement in completion percentage was infrequent. Then people started trotting out Elway himself over and over as if that one comparison made my statement invalid.

I think Steve McNair's a better comparison for Tebow (and he's a guy Tebow brings up in interviews all the time when they ask about QBs he used to watch as a kid). McNair and Tebow's rookie stats are almost identical. McNair's first year as a starter his comp pct was around 52%, and he ran the ball a ton. By his fourth year as a starter he was over 60% throwing and had learned to pick his spots running a little better.Granted, Tebow's been more inconsistent so far and has more to work on with his passing mechanics than McNair, but I think they're very similar players in a lot of ways. I think if Tebow can improve his comp pct into the 55-60% range like McNair did, while still protecting the ball like he's been able to do so far, that he's got a solid shot be a very good starting QB.

 

[FavreCo]

Completion %? Meaningless.

Nope, but people like you act like it is everything. And since it is everything, Tony Romo is better than Tom Brady, and Ryan Fitzpatrick is better than Eli Manning. Don't believe me? Go look at their 2011 completion percentages.

Wrong buddy. Care to show me where I said completion % is everything? It's part of it. Check my rants (including previously bannded IDs) on David Carr who has a great competion % (better than 2 x SB winnign QB E. manning). Worst 10 year NFL QB in the history of the NFL. that's right, that pile of crap had collected a paycheck for 10 years now. I'd take The Tebow over that clown any day of the week.

 

[fatness]

Another contract snag, after resolving the first snag involving Tebow owing the Broncos money.

The Jets announced on Thursday night that Tim Tebow’s introductory press conference won’t take place until Monday. The reason, apparently, is that yet another issue has arisen with Tebow’s contract.

The previous contract issue that arose, about whether the Jets or the Broncos would be on the hook for salary advances Tebow had received, nearly killed the deal.

 

[FavreCo]

Elway 4-7, 47.5%, 7td-14int, 54.9 qb rating. 146yd, 1 td rushing. 1 gw driveTebow 7-4, 46.5%, 12td-6int, 72.9 qb rating. 660yd, 6td rushing. 6 gw drivesFirst 11 starts. Maybe Tebow's not that bad. Just sayin....

People really need to stop making this terrible comparison.

It looks like a great comparison to me. Comparable number of games. Both players played the same position. Both players were first year starters. The burden is on you to show how it is not a good comparison. I suspect you don't like it because it contradicts your bias. Your bias is that Tebow isn't good and that Elway obviously was. Your bias is that Tebow can't improve. Elway obviously did. Why can't Tebow improve as a passer? Because...the Media tell you so.

You guys really need to start paying better attention. I already pointed out once in this thread why it was a horrible comparison.(1). We're talking about completely different eras. When Elway was a rookie, 50% comp. and an even TD/INT ratio meant you were worthy of Pro Bowl consideration. Putting up those numbers today means you are a dog.(2). One of the reasons Elway's stats improved were due to rule changes that limited the effectiveness of defensive backs. Are we all banking that a similar rule change is on the horizon to assist Tebow?(3). Their pedigrees coming out of college were completely different. Although Tebow's college career was far more prolific, there were plenty of experts who doubted he could be a competitive pro QBs. No such doubts ever existed with Elway. Even when the Colts were over a barrel, the Broncos were still willing to pay top dollar to aquire his rights. Heck the Chargers had three number one picks that year and almost traded all three to draft Elway when they still had Dan Fouts in his prime on the roster.Same number of games? Same position? Those are just foolish reasons to assume that one outcome is going to lead to a similar outcome thirty years later.

This is when you know that someone has no clue what they are talking about and is grasping at straws. Back in the 80's and 90's, The Tebow would have been on IR before the playoff game. In the 70's he would have been planted on his head.

 

[FavreCo]

I've never seen so much attention given to such a mediocre QB. I guess it's that internet doohickey. Before Al Gore these types of players were called running backs, unless your name was Bobby Douglass.

To see this before the internet would have required paying for a ticket and watching these blowhards scream at the top of their lungs on every tebow snap.

 

[fatness]

I've never seen so much attention given to such a mediocre QB. I guess it's that internet doohickey. Before Al Gore these types of players were called running backs, unless your name was Bobby Douglass.

Much of the attention comes for religious/social reasons. Pat Robertson.

Following Wednesday’s news that Tebow’s been traded to the New York Jets, Robertson said, despite Tebow’s great performance, the Broncos did not treat him well: “I think the Denver Broncos treated him shabbily. He won seven games, he brought them into the playoffs, for heaven sakes. I mean, they were a nothing team. He rallied them together with spectacular last-minute passes and, you know, when they beat Buffalo — I mean, Pittsburgh, excuse me — it was a tremendous victory.”

Robertson cited bad karma: “And you just ask yourself, okay, so Peyton Manning was a tremendous MVP quarterback, but he’s been injured. If that injury comes back, Denver will find itself without a quarterback. And in my opinion, it would serve them right.”

 

[HellToupee]

I've never seen so much attention given to such a mediocre QB. I guess it's that internet doohickey. Before Al Gore these types of players were called running backs, unless your name was Bobby Douglass.

Steve Grogan

 

[Mayhem]

OK, here's the deal:

The reason that many people (myself included) are limiting Tebow's upside -and that's what we're all really talking about here- is that he does not have the basic mechanics required to consistently deliver a good pass.

All these comparisons to other QBs in their early years are not taking into account the upside potential that was present. Those QBs that were high on peolpe's boards, but started shakey, had many if not all of the basic skills required to POTENTIALLY be successful as an NFL QB: live arms, good footwork, pocket presence, good mechanics. The issues that many rookie/fledgeling QBs have:

- not reading defenses correctly

- not anticipating WR routes and timing

- game speed

- 'smart' plays vs. dumb turnovers

can be reduced or eliminated through NFL experience, good coaching and team chemistry. What these things can NOT cure is bad mechanics and the other basis qualities that a QB MUST HAVE to even have the POTENTIAL to be a very good QB.

Tebow's problem is that he, through Denver's good defensive play, his oppositions dumb play, and a few miracles sprinkled in, has basically shown close to what his upside is: A hybrid RB/QB that is a good leader, good teammate, and can win you a close game late if given the opportunity.

In other words, for him to be consistently successful, the game must generally be kept low scoring and close. If your defense has an off day, you probably won't win. If your ST gives up a bad turnover, you're in trouble. He won't be the guy that zips you down the field a few times and gets you a comfortable lead. He won't be the guy that gets you an extra 3 or 7 points late in the first half after a kickoff.

All NFL teams want a QB that has the PONTENTIAL to be that guy. A Brady. A Manning. An Elway. A guy that you can win with when the defense isn't top tier. A guy that can win when the ball doesn't bounce your way. Can you win with a mediocre QB? Sure. But you need ST and D to be above average. And it's a lot harder to have the 20+ guys on D/ST be above average year after year than it is to strap your season on the back of an elite franchise QB.

When you commit to Mark Sanchez, or to Vince Young, or to Ryan Leaf, it's because you are hoping you are POTENTIALLY getting that guy. You may not get it. In fact the odds say you most likely won't, but if you don't you work with what you have and hope the defense holds and the ball bounces in your favor - but you still believe your QB can one day be that guy. If after a few years you realize he isn't? You find someone else. It happens every year in the NFL.

The problem with putting Tebow as your starting QB is that you will never get that guy. You will get what you've already seen: A hybrid RB/QB that is a good leader, good teammate, and can win you a close game late if given the opportunity. And while he is the starter that won't get you much except a few improbable, exciting wins, and lots and lots of frustration.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Completion %? Meaningless.

Nope, but people like you act like it is everything. And since it is everything, Tony Romo is better than Tom Brady, and Ryan Fitzpatrick is better than Eli Manning. Don't believe me? Go look at their 2011 completion percentages.

Wrong buddy. Care to show me where I said completion % is everything? It's part of it. Check my rants (including previously bannded IDs) on David Carr who has a great competion % (better than 2 x SB winnign QB E. manning). Worst 10 year NFL QB in the history of the NFL. that's right, that pile of crap had collected a paycheck for 10 years now. I'd take The Tebow over that clown any day of the week.

I didn't say you said it; I said you act like it, which is making a big deal out of it like it is everything, but without actually saying the words, "Completion percentage is everything." Someone will point out his team's W/L record, his TD-INT ratio and the 4th quarter comebacks, yet the comeback from people like you is always, "Yes, but look at the terrible completion percentage!", as if that trumps all of the good (and there is some good, to go with the bad, of which there is plenty of as well). And I am pretty sure I don't know what your previous user names were. I wouldn't even recognize your name if you didn't post non-stop in seemingly every Tebow thread.

 

[Mile High]

I've never seen so much attention given to such a mediocre QB. I guess it's that internet doohickey. Before Al Gore these types of players were called running backs, unless your name was Bobby Douglass.

Much of the attention comes for religious/social reasons. Pat Robertson.

Following Wednesday’s news that Tebow’s been traded to the New York Jets, Robertson said, despite Tebow’s great performance, the Broncos did not treat him well: “I think the Denver Broncos treated him shabbily. He won seven games, he brought them into the playoffs, for heaven sakes. I mean, they were a nothing team. He rallied them together with spectacular last-minute passes and, you know, when they beat Buffalo — I mean, Pittsburgh, excuse me — it was a tremendous victory.”

Robertson cited bad karma: “And you just ask yourself, okay, so Peyton Manning was a tremendous MVP quarterback, but he’s been injured. If that injury comes back, Denver will find itself without a quarterback. And in my opinion, it would serve them right.”

I like Tebow but it's people like Robertson who make me glad he's gone. Now he's the Jets problem.

 

[DoubleG]

I've never seen so much attention given to such a mediocre QB. I guess it's that internet doohickey. Before Al Gore these types of players were called running backs, unless your name was Bobby Douglass.

Much of the attention comes for religious/social reasons. Pat Robertson.

Following Wednesday’s news that Tebow’s been traded to the New York Jets, Robertson said, despite Tebow’s great performance, the Broncos did not treat him well: “I think the Denver Broncos treated him shabbily. He won seven games, he brought them into the playoffs, for heaven sakes. I mean, they were a nothing team. He rallied them together with spectacular last-minute passes and, you know, when they beat Buffalo — I mean, Pittsburgh, excuse me — it was a tremendous victory.”

Robertson cited bad karma: “And you just ask yourself, okay, so Peyton Manning was a tremendous MVP quarterback, but he’s been injured. If that injury comes back, Denver will find itself without a quarterback. And in my opinion, it would serve them right.”

No, really much of the attention does NOT come for religious/social reasons. That quote could just easily have come from a talking head on ESPN and the points therin would be equally valid.Sadly, people that think the support for Tebow is based solely (or in large part) on religious reasons have no problem dimissing any valid points along with any (or as) percieved religious bias. And to presume that anyone that thinks that Tebow can be a succesful NFL QB must be religiously motivated is to ignore the real crux of the discussion.

Many Tebow supporters think he can be a succesful NFL QB - just not necessarily in the "traditional" sense - and think that 14 starts may be a little too early to dismiss the possibility. Especially given some of his passing numbers in college.

Tebow detractors insist either A) That being a succesful QB outside of the norms (i.e. high completion %, a pocket passer, doesn't run, with a release time of no more than X) is impossible. Or B) That those who think it is possible are religious zealots.

These debates are NOT new (about a QB/RB hybrid) - nor are they limited to Tebow. The same was said about Michael Vick for years in Atlanta. Similar (although less pubicized, because most of us didn't have the sports access we do now) things were discussed about Steve Young and to a lesser extent, Steve McNair.

While Tebow has proven to be a lightning rod for religious discussion, simply dismissing any comments in his favor as religiously or socially motivated is an easy way to ignore his actual football positives and avoid the actual discussion surrounding what makes a good QB - is it just completion %, and release time or is leadership, not turning the ball over, making the defense respect the QB as a possible (legitimate) run threat important as well? And which are moreso? And just because the answers to the above questions were such 10 years ago, are they the same now? Will they be 5 years from now? Are Tebow and Vick simply flukey gadget players, or are they are trend in the NFL?

For a long time, it was presumed that having a bell cow back was the way to go. Yet teams (succesful ones anyway) - have shifted to more of a two back, rotating, situational running attack. Whose to say that the demands (either due to salaries, injuries, defenses) on QB wont creat the need for a shift in the demands on that position as well?

That is why I (and many others) find Tebow an interesting case-study. Not because of religious or social concerns - but exactly because it is intensely football related. But sadly, many will dismiss comments like the above quotes from Pat Robertson simply because they come from him, rather than look at the points contained and weigh their validity (or not) based on football, rather than reading into them some misperceived bias that may not even exsist.

 

[fatness]

No, really much of the attention does NOT come for religious/social reasons. That quote could just easily have come from a talking head on ESPN and the points therin would be equally valid.

I disagree. There have been numerous players enter the NFL with impressive college careers and with questions about their skills translating into NFL skills. None of them have generated adoration out of proportion to their NFL accomplishments like Tebow has. Why is that?

 

[Touchdown There]

OK, here's the deal:The reason that many people (myself included) are limiting Tebow's upside -and that's what we're all really talking about here- is that he does not have the basic mechanics required to consistently deliver a good pass.All these comparisons to other QBs in their early years are not taking into account the upside potential that was present. Those QBs that were high on peolpe's boards, but started shakey, had many if not all of the basic skills required to POTENTIALLY be successful as an NFL QB: live arms, good footwork, pocket presence, good mechanics. The issues that many rookie/fledgeling QBs have:- not reading defenses correctly- not anticipating WR routes and timing- game speed- 'smart' plays vs. dumb turnoverscan be reduced or eliminated through NFL experience, good coaching and team chemistry. What these things can NOT cure is bad mechanics and the other basis qualities that a QB MUST HAVE to even have the POTENTIAL to be a very good QB.Tebow's problem is that he, through Denver's good defensive play, his oppositions dumb play, and a few miracles sprinkled in, has basically shown close to what his upside is: A hybrid RB/QB that is a good leader, good teammate, and can win you a close game late if given the opportunity.In other words, for him to be consistently successful, the game must generally be kept low scoring and close. If your defense has an off day, you probably won't win. If your ST gives up a bad turnover, you're in trouble. He won't be the guy that zips you down the field a few times and gets you a comfortable lead. He won't be the guy that gets you an extra 3 or 7 points late in the first half after a kickoff.All NFL teams want a QB that has the PONTENTIAL to be that guy. A Brady. A Manning. An Elway. A guy that you can win with when the defense isn't top tier. A guy that can win when the ball doesn't bounce your way. Can you win with a mediocre QB? Sure. But you need ST and D to be above average. And it's a lot harder to have the 20+ guys on D/ST be above average year after year than it is to strap your season on the back of an elite franchise QB.When you commit to Mark Sanchez, or to Vince Young, or to Ryan Leaf, it's because you are hoping you are POTENTIALLY getting that guy. You may not get it. In fact the odds say you most likely won't, but if you don't you work with what you have and hope the defense holds and the ball bounces in your favor - but you still believe your QB can one day be that guy. If after a few years you realize he isn't? You find someone else. It happens every year in the NFL.The problem with putting Tebow as your starting QB is that you will never get that guy. You will get what you've already seen: A hybrid RB/QB that is a good leader, good teammate, and can win you a close game late if given the opportunity. And while he is the starter that won't get you much except a few improbable, exciting wins, and lots and lots of frustration.

12 posts in 7 years...and it was a good one. Well said.

 

[Possum]

OK, here's the deal:The reason that many people (myself included) are limiting Tebow's upside -and that's what we're all really talking about here- is that he does not have the basic mechanics required to consistently deliver a good pass

I'll agree with this part - Tebow's main problem right now is his poor footwork leading to inconsistent throws. Fix that and he suddenly becomes a lot more accurate.

All these comparisons to other QBs in their early years are not taking into account the upside potential that was present. Those QBs that were high on peolpe's boards, but started shakey, had many if not all of the basic skills required to POTENTIALLY be successful as an NFL QB: live arms, good footwork, pocket presence, good mechanics. The issues that many rookie/fledgeling QBs have:- not reading defenses correctly- not anticipating WR routes and timing- game speed- 'smart' plays vs. dumb turnoverscan be reduced or eliminated through NFL experience, good coaching and team chemistry. What these things can NOT cure is bad mechanics and the other basis qualities that a QB MUST HAVE to even have the POTENTIAL to be a very good QB.Tebow's problem is that he, through Denver's good defensive play, his oppositions dumb play, and a few miracles sprinkled in, has basically shown close to what his upside is: A hybrid RB/QB that is a good leader, good teammate, and can win you a close game late if given the opportunity.

completely disagree with this stuff, though - the only thing you listed that can't be taught or doesn't come with experience is arm strength (and Tebow has enough of that), and I think it's a mistake to assume that a second-year player has already reached his potential, especially a player that works as hard as this kid.

 

[Two Deep]

I can't wait to watch Santonio Holmes explode!....and not in a good way.

 

[DoubleG]

No, really much of the attention does NOT come for religious/social reasons. That quote could just easily have come from a talking head on ESPN and the points therin would be equally valid.

I disagree. There have been numerous players enter the NFL with impressive college careers and with questions about their skills translating into NFL skills. None of them have generated adoration out of proportion to their NFL accomplishments like Tebow has. Why is that?

Ummm...the answer to that exact question was in the rest of the post you just quoted.

 

[Run It Up]

I can't wait to watch Santonio Holmes explode!....and not in a good way.

Ive got a pool going, Ive got it all on week 3 preseason.

 

[Mayhem]

completely disagree with this stuff, though - the only thing you listed that can't be taught or doesn't come with experience is arm strength (and Tebow has enough of that), and I think it's a mistake to assume that a second-year player has already reached his potential, especially a player that works as hard as this kid.

I dunno man, they have been trying to work on his mechanics for a couple years now, but he still keeps reverting back to his old ways when the *&^% hits the fan (or cross hits the road to Golgotha if you will...). I don't see his basic throwing mechanics getting fixed anytime soon.

 

[DoubleG]

completely disagree with this stuff, though - the only thing you listed that can't be taught or doesn't come with experience is arm strength (and Tebow has enough of that), and I think it's a mistake to assume that a second-year player has already reached his potential, especially a player that works as hard as this kid.

I dunno man, they have been trying to work on his mechanics for a couple years now, but he still keeps reverting back to his old ways when the *&^% hits the fan (or cross hits the road to Golgotha if you will...). I don't see his basic throwing mechanics getting fixed anytime soon.

This is another aspect of the situation that is fascinating to me. And when exactly does the text in red happen? The 4th quarter of close games. When is Tebow statistically as a passer at his best? 4th quarter of close games (statistically, last year he was a top 10 QB in passer rating in the 4th quarter).Maybe, just maybe, coaching staffs should simply stop trying to "fix his mechanics" and work on reading defenses more with the time.

He had these "terrible throwing mechanics" and "awful footwork" in college - and broke 5 NCAA and 12 SEC passing records with them. Many point out that his delivery is too slow (apparently .2 seconds is a big deal) - and yet he still has one of the lowest INT% in the league. The time he may lose in his release, he make up for by creating time (and thus space between WR and DB) with his feet.

 

[tom22406]

I've never seen so much attention given to such a mediocre QB. I guess it's that internet doohickey. Before Al Gore these types of players were called running backs, unless your name was Bobby Douglass.

I have no idea why he is such a hot topic for being such a below average talent in this league.How many backup QB's will hold a press conference a few days after signing with a new team and have news outlets follow his every step and word?Simply baffling the attention being paid to him and yet here I am again replying in another thread on him.

 

[DoubleG]

I've never seen so much attention given to such a mediocre QB. I guess it's that internet doohickey. Before Al Gore these types of players were called running backs, unless your name was Bobby Douglass.

I have no idea why he is such a hot topic for being such a below average talent in this league.How many backup QB's will hold a press conference a few days after signing with a new team and have news outlets follow his every step and word?

Simply baffling the attention being paid to him and yet here I am again replying in another thread on him.

Not to toot my own horn, but post 185 in this thread sums it up, imho.Summary: Tebow is simply the most recent of the "Can a QB/RB Hybrid Be Succesful in the NFL?" question. The thing that makes Tebow more debated is his passing numbers in college (which were good enough to land 5 NCAA records and 12 SEC passing records). Another aspect of Tebow's game that makes him unique is that he is a much bigger and more physical runner than previous QB/RB hybrids (Vick, S.Young, McNair, V. Young) - but a lesser passer (at least at this point).

There are also certain of his abilities that aren't quite conventional - his low INT% as a young QB, for example. Is that a fluke? Or is he really that good at avoiding throwing picks. If so and some of his "incompletions" were simply throwing the ball away from a defender, is his poor completion % correctable? If he does try to "thread the needle" more, will his INT% climb?

Are the crazy wins at the end of games just flukes or is some of it (not as much as Tebowmaniacs might claim) due to his ability to run the ball? Do NFL defenses really get "confused" or are they "forced into mistakes" trying to account for his ability to run?

If Tebow does become more of a "traditional pocket passer" will some of these "advantages" go away?

There are a myriad of reasons why Tebow is discussed. While it's true that to this point he seems to be a mediocre NFL passer, the question is, can he develop into a winning NFL quarterback? And what will that QB look like (in terms of style of play)?

 

[Possum]

completely disagree with this stuff, though - the only thing you listed that can't be taught or doesn't come with experience is arm strength (and Tebow has enough of that), and I think it's a mistake to assume that a second-year player has already reached his potential, especially a player that works as hard as this kid.

I dunno man, they have been trying to work on his mechanics for a couple years now, but he still keeps reverting back to his old ways when the *&^% hits the fan (or cross hits the road to Golgotha if you will...). I don't see his basic throwing mechanics getting fixed anytime soon.

I understand where you're coming from, but he's not really had as much work on his mechanics you would expect at this point - he came out of the Senior Bowl and overhauled his throwing motion in the weeks before the draft with Noel Mazzone, and he had three months with Josh McDaniels prior to his rookie season. He then missed the entire offseason of work with the team/coaches due to the lockout - he apparently spent most of that time working out with his brother Robby instead of with a private QB coach (which in hindsight turned out to be a big mistake). from everything I've read, he spent as much time as possible with Denver last year working on his throwing with Gase/McCoy, but there's only so much you can do during the actual season vs. an offseason. Still, you can see that he made some strides there - the Tebow that started against Miami/Detroit last year would not have been able to put up the game he did against Pittsburgh, regardless of the defense they were showing him.

the other thing to me is that I don't really think his throwing motion has nearly as much to do with his accuracy problems as his footwork and balance on his throws. That's something that can be fixed with time/reps and hard work a lot easier than a throwing motion.

(EDIT - Here's a pretty interesting story from February with quotes from John Fox and others about the mechanical fixes Tebow needs after last year )

I just think this kid has some serious, unique potential that people are glossing over because either A) they can't get past who he is off the field or B) they've listened to too many ESPN talking heads and draft guys saying how he'll never amount to anything in the league. I think it's a mistake, given everything he's done to this point, to assume he won't be able to get better from where he is right now, and I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that if that happens he can be a very good NFL QB - unconventional, yeah, but still very good.

 

[cvnpoka]

completely disagree with this stuff, though - the only thing you listed that can't be taught or doesn't come with experience is arm strength (and Tebow has enough of that), and I think it's a mistake to assume that a second-year player has already reached his potential, especially a player that works as hard as this kid.

tebow is 24. hes had many years with access to high level instruction to correct these things. he works hard. but he hasnt made any real progress. mebbe theres moar to it than just hard work and wanting it and praying for it.

 

[zDragon]

Elway 4-7, 47.5%, 7td-14int, 54.9 qb rating. 146yd, 1 td rushing. 1 gw drive

Tebow 7-4, 46.5%, 12td-6int, 72.9 qb rating. 660yd, 6td rushing. 6 gw drives

First 11 starts.

Maybe Tebow's not that bad. Just sayin....

People really need to stop making this terrible comparison.

It looks like a great comparison to me. Comparable number of games. Both players played the same position. Both players were first year starters. The burden is on you to show how it is not a good comparison. I suspect you don't like it because it contradicts your bias. Your bias is that Tebow isn't good and that Elway obviously was. Your bias is that Tebow can't improve. Elway obviously did. Why can't Tebow improve as a passer? Because...the Media tell you so.

You guys really need to start paying better attention. I already pointed out once in this thread why it was a horrible comparison.(1). We're talking about completely different eras. When Elway was a rookie, 50% comp. and an even TD/INT ratio meant you were worthy of Pro Bowl consideration. Putting up those numbers today means you are a dog.

(2). One of the reasons Elway's stats improved were due to rule changes that limited the effectiveness of defensive backs. Are we all banking that a similar rule change is on the horizon to assist Tebow?

(3). Their pedigrees coming out of college were completely different. Although Tebow's college career was far more prolific, there were plenty of experts who doubted he could be a competitive pro QBs. No such doubts ever existed with Elway. Even when the Colts were over a barrel, the Broncos were still willing to pay top dollar to aquire his rights. Heck the Chargers had three number one picks that year and almost traded all three to draft Elway when they still had Dan Fouts in his prime on the roster.

Same number of games? Same position? Those are just foolish reasons to assume that one outcome is going to lead to a similar outcome thirty years later.

83Looks like only two teams had a worse Completion % than Elway his rookie year. It also looks like 50% wouldn't get you close to being in the pro-bowl.

 

[Sebowski]

According to all the GMs in the entire league he is worth about a 4th round pick. Yet there's this thread.....

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

According to all the GMs in the entire league he is worth about a 4th round pick. Yet there's this thread.....

The GMs had other considerations-- the media circus, team needs, the fragile egos of other quarterbacks on their teams and their ability to be patient with a young QB without risking their own jobs. Most GMs and coaches are on a perpetual hot seat, so patience isn't really in their vocabulary.One thing we can say about Tebow-- he won't wilt in the NY media limelight. That kind of scrutiny follows him everywhere. That's one variable NY teams wouldn't have to worry about with him. So his development will occur or it won't, but it probably won't be hindered by the press.Tebow is a factor right now, inexperienced as he is. Give him a couple years and see if he grows into a decent passer. If that happens he has other tools already in place. I don't see why people are so eager to write off a 24-year-old.