ren hoek
Footballguy
Probably why they were in such a hurry to bomb a middle eastern country before the evidence had materialized- they knew it was bs.
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The war in Syria (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Geezil
- Start date
AAABatteries
Footballguy
ren hoek
Footballguy
You’d think it’d be a big deal that the intelligence western countries used as an excuse to bomb Damascus turned out to be staged by the same rebels those countries were backing in Syria.
You’d think it’d be a big deal that the OPCW, which is supposed to be neutral, suppressed evidence that ran counter to the commonly accepted narrative.
But instead it’s radio silence. Anyone who questioned this was painted as a conspiracy theorist. There’s all the coverage and network buzz in the world for a regime change narrative. Where’s the “free press” on this one?
You’d think it’d be a big deal that the OPCW, which is supposed to be neutral, suppressed evidence that ran counter to the commonly accepted narrative.
But instead it’s radio silence. Anyone who questioned this was painted as a conspiracy theorist. There’s all the coverage and network buzz in the world for a regime change narrative. Where’s the “free press” on this one?
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
ren hoek
Footballguy
A September ceasefire deal between Russia and rebel backer Turkey was supposed to prevent a massive regime offensive in the region, which is home to some 3 million people.
Under the terms of the agreement, hardliners and jihadists were to withdraw from a planned buffer zone, allowing traffic to flow along two strategic highways, M4 and M5, which connect government-held areas with the Turkish border.
But Hayat Tahrir al-Sham (HTS), which is dominated by members of a former al-Qaeda affiliate, has failed to leave, apparently leading to a spike in deadly airstrikes and shelling by the regime and ally Russia.
Under the terms of the agreement, hardliners and jihadists were to withdraw from a planned buffer zone, allowing traffic to flow along two strategic highways, M4 and M5, which connect government-held areas with the Turkish border.
But Hayat Tahrir al-Sham (HTS), which is dominated by members of a former al-Qaeda affiliate, has failed to leave, apparently leading to a spike in deadly airstrikes and shelling by the regime and ally Russia.
Reminder that Idlib is the Al Qaeda capital of the world.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Yep. A literal ghost town in here all of a sudden. All the people who called me a conspiracy theorist, who got it completely dead wrong while I got it right, have disappeared completely.
Look at the traffic in this thread when US/France/UK were bleating about chemical weapons compared to now. Where's CNN, Brian Williams and the "international community" now that their reporting has been exposed as straightup war propaganda? Where's the correction now that the narrative they pushed has been exposed as a complete falsehood?
timschochet
Footballguy
I dunno. I tend to trust the mainstream media. Here is Reuters:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1ST2F3
In order to believe what you’re asserting I would also have to believe that all of the sources I trust: Reuters, Associated Press, CNN, the New York Times, the Washington Post- are all deliberately lying to me in a coordinated effort. I just find that extremely implausible.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Whatever you think plausible, the Douma chemical weapons attack that led to the bombing of Damascus appears to have been staged. The article you link to makes no reference to the buried findings from the OPCW FFM. It also cites a State Dept. spokesman at length, while a one-sentence blurb represents the Syrian side.
In fact, none of Reuters, CNN, FoxNews, MSNBC or WaPo have written anything at all about the leaked OPCW report (or if they did, they made no mention of the OPCW).
That you think they couldn't lie or intentionally mislead people- after their work in Iraq, the Russia collusion falsehood, and with so much overlap between the media/intelligence/govt and think tank spheres- I mean, I just don't know what to say to that.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Reminder of the gaslighting and trolling you were subjected to for expressing basic skepticism about the official story:
No. Ren already said we can’t believe anything Trump says because we didn’t believe him before.
Renny Logic
The Z Machine
Footballguy
From that link: "Just because the OPCW took the extraordinary decision to cover up some of its evidence in Douma does not mean that gas has not been used in Syria by the government or even by the Russians or by Isis and its fellow Islamists. Undoubtedly it has. All stand guilty of war crimes in the Syrian conflict. The OPCW’s dishonesty – for that is what it amounts to – does not let war criminals off the hook."
So, what is the point you are trying to make here, @Rove!?
Wow, didn't realize there was another suspected chemical attack last week. Thanks Tim.
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
This follows the same pattern the Syrians have followed before. It’s part of their strategy.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
A “correction”? “Exposed as a complete falsehood”?
Do you know what a dissenting opinion is?
ren hoek
Footballguy
Do you think they were being good journalists when they pushed the state dept. narrative so credulously? It seems they took the official line at face value, closed ranks around it, and then badgered people that had the wherewithal to question it. There was hardly any dissent at all.Henry Ford said:
This interview with Admiral Lord West comes to mind. The military man asks the tough questions, and the journalist gaslights him about whether he's "muddying the waters" in an "information war with Russia"! It's supposed to be the other way around!
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Are we changing the subject again to whether journalists properly investigated? I thought we were talking about your comments that the official report by the OPCW had been “exposed as a complete falsehood.” Because of a single dissenting opinion that wasn’t put in that report.
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ren hoek
Footballguy
What part of the chemical attacks in Douma being staged- and the countervailing evidence of the staging being suppressed- are you not getting?
Henry Ford
Footballguy
The proof of those things. A dissenting opinion not being in the report is potentially evidence that may be the case. It is not some smoking gun that proves a massive conspiracy and vindicates everyone who’s been shouting massive international conspiracy.
ren hoek
Footballguy
I believe the analysis speaks for itself. It also comports with basic logic of how Assad had so much to lose from using chemical weapons, while western-backed rebels had so much to gain.
timschochet
Footballguy
It’s as if, after Oliver Stone released the JFK movie, ren posted “See? I told you Oswald didn’t do it by himself! You all laughed at me, but now we have the proof!”
Henry Ford
Footballguy
And you believe that the mere existence of this analysis exposes all other analyses as a complete falsehood?
ren hoek
Footballguy
Actually watched this on Netflix one day... I don't believe Stone went there at all.
This is like Hans Blix coming back and saying, "I told you there were no WMDs in Iraq."
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Yes, it is probably just as false a premise and conclusion as that statement would be.
ren hoek
Footballguy
I believe the "mere existence" of this analysis subverts the cartoonish depiction of a sarin/chlorine attack by the "gas killing animal" on his own people completely, yes.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I believe Blix said it was unlikely there were active weapons manufacturing facilities, and they definitely did find WMDs in Iraq. Just not active manufacturing nor weapons being hidden by the Iraqi government.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
That’s nuts, it’s been an incredibly effective tactic in an extremely effective military strategy.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
I am about a quarter of the way through the book Assad or We Burn TheCountry and I have to say that it is ####### awesome.
whoknew
Footballguy
I'm not an expert in this area at all, just reading articles and twitter. So if someone who is more knowledgeable can confirm/educate me on this, I appreciate it.
My understanding from speaking to local sources in northern Syria is that this decision was made by Trump without advance warning to Kurds or even US coalition forces on the ground. They found out the way the rest of us found out 1/
Kurds say they were acting in good faith working with US on security mechanism but now feel Turkey was just working on reconnaissance the whole time (joint patrols, flights over Rojava, pulling back from the border etc). This has left them incredibly weak as assault looms 2/
There are fears for the ISIS prisons, even if the Turkish assault is limited (say to strip between Tal Abyad and Ras al-Ain) as predictions are Kurdish leadership will move north, leaving weaker control and minimal security of jails and camps 3/
--
I'd love to know what this smooth transition of control of ISIS prisons in northern Syria from the Kurds to Turks would look like.
--
Trump may actually be on the cusp of creating on the worst national security crises of our time by - albeit inadvertently - fuelling the very circumstances in which all these ISIS prisoners escape. It’s absolutely astonishing.
Release from detention in Camp Bucca produced fighters who were more brazen, daring and committed precisely because they realised the hopelessness of their situation (hence the move to Abu Bakr Naji’s doctrine). What do we expect released ISIS detainees to do if freed now?
My understanding from speaking to local sources in northern Syria is that this decision was made by Trump without advance warning to Kurds or even US coalition forces on the ground. They found out the way the rest of us found out 1/
Kurds say they were acting in good faith working with US on security mechanism but now feel Turkey was just working on reconnaissance the whole time (joint patrols, flights over Rojava, pulling back from the border etc). This has left them incredibly weak as assault looms 2/
There are fears for the ISIS prisons, even if the Turkish assault is limited (say to strip between Tal Abyad and Ras al-Ain) as predictions are Kurdish leadership will move north, leaving weaker control and minimal security of jails and camps 3/
--
I'd love to know what this smooth transition of control of ISIS prisons in northern Syria from the Kurds to Turks would look like.
--
Trump may actually be on the cusp of creating on the worst national security crises of our time by - albeit inadvertently - fuelling the very circumstances in which all these ISIS prisoners escape. It’s absolutely astonishing.
Release from detention in Camp Bucca produced fighters who were more brazen, daring and committed precisely because they realised the hopelessness of their situation (hence the move to Abu Bakr Naji’s doctrine). What do we expect released ISIS detainees to do if freed now?
whoknew
Footballguy
This is from Brett McGurk - former diplomat:
Donald Trump is not a Commander-in-Chief. He makes impulsive decisions with no knowledge or deliberation. He sends military personnel into harm’s way with no backing. He blusters and then leaves our allies exposed when adversaries call his bluff or he confronts a hard phone call.
The WH statement tonight on Syria after Trump spoke with Erdogan demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of anything happening on the ground. The “United States” is not holding any ISIS detainees. They are all being held by the SDF, which Trump just served up to Turkey.
Turkey has neither the intent, desire, nor capacity to manage 60k detainees in al Hol camp, which State and DoD IGs warn is the nucleus for a resurgent ISIS. Believing otherwise is a reckless gamble with our national security. Background here - link
The Turkish proposed “safe zone” would effectively extend Turkey’s border 30km into Syria, including areas of Christians, Kurds, and other vulnerable minorities. Our diplomats were working on a plan to forestall such a debacle. Where’s Pompeo?
Indeed, US officials signed the SDF up to a “security mechanism” plan by which it removed all defensive barriers on the Syrian side of the border to forestall a Turkish incursion. EUCOM issued this just yesterday. Was Trump ever even briefed on this plan?
Trump made a similarly impulsive decision when I was managing the policy. I resigned over it and stand by every word in this op-ed. Tonight is a sad replay but seems even worse as US officials had since convinced the SDF that we planned to stay.
There’s a similar defect at the core of US foreign policies across the board: maximalist objectives for a minimalist president combined with no process to assess facts, develop options, or prepare contingencies. Our personnel are left exposed at the slightest moment of friction.
Bottom line: Trump tonight after one call with a foreign leader provided a gift to Russia, Iran, and ISIS. FWIW, I warned of this here in @ForeignAffairs — and recommended alternatives given the hard realities on the ground and in this White House. Link2
Donald Trump is not a Commander-in-Chief. He makes impulsive decisions with no knowledge or deliberation. He sends military personnel into harm’s way with no backing. He blusters and then leaves our allies exposed when adversaries call his bluff or he confronts a hard phone call.
The WH statement tonight on Syria after Trump spoke with Erdogan demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of anything happening on the ground. The “United States” is not holding any ISIS detainees. They are all being held by the SDF, which Trump just served up to Turkey.
Turkey has neither the intent, desire, nor capacity to manage 60k detainees in al Hol camp, which State and DoD IGs warn is the nucleus for a resurgent ISIS. Believing otherwise is a reckless gamble with our national security. Background here - link
The Turkish proposed “safe zone” would effectively extend Turkey’s border 30km into Syria, including areas of Christians, Kurds, and other vulnerable minorities. Our diplomats were working on a plan to forestall such a debacle. Where’s Pompeo?
Indeed, US officials signed the SDF up to a “security mechanism” plan by which it removed all defensive barriers on the Syrian side of the border to forestall a Turkish incursion. EUCOM issued this just yesterday. Was Trump ever even briefed on this plan?
Trump made a similarly impulsive decision when I was managing the policy. I resigned over it and stand by every word in this op-ed. Tonight is a sad replay but seems even worse as US officials had since convinced the SDF that we planned to stay.
There’s a similar defect at the core of US foreign policies across the board: maximalist objectives for a minimalist president combined with no process to assess facts, develop options, or prepare contingencies. Our personnel are left exposed at the slightest moment of friction.
Bottom line: Trump tonight after one call with a foreign leader provided a gift to Russia, Iran, and ISIS. FWIW, I warned of this here in @ForeignAffairs — and recommended alternatives given the hard realities on the ground and in this White House. Link2
John Dickerson @jdickerson · 6h
This was two days ago....”Pentagon spokesman Cmdr. Sean Robertson said any “uncoordinated military operations by Turkey would be of grave concern as it would undermine our shared interest of a secure northeast Syria and the enduring defeat of” the Islamic State group
whoknew
Footballguy
@Richardengel - Syria Kurdish official told us, reacting to Trump’s overnight decision - “The Americans are traitors. They have abandoned us to a Turkish massacre. We can no longer fight against ISIS and have to defend ourselves. This could allow ISIS to return to the region.”
Looks like Lindsey Graham has picked the hill he will die on:
Lindsey Graham
@LindseyGrahamSC
* Ensures ISIS comeback.
* Forces Kurds to align with Assad and Iran.
* Destroys Turkey’s relationship with U.S. Congress.
* Will be a stain on America’s honor for abandoning the Kurds.
Karen Tumulty
@ktumulty
"the biggest lie being told by the administration" is that ISIS has been defeated -- @LindseyGrahamSC uses the L-word about
@realDonaldTrump just now on Fox and Friends.
Lindsey Graham
@LindseyGrahamSC
* Ensures ISIS comeback.
* Forces Kurds to align with Assad and Iran.
* Destroys Turkey’s relationship with U.S. Congress.
* Will be a stain on America’s honor for abandoning the Kurds.
Karen Tumulty
@ktumulty
"the biggest lie being told by the administration" is that ISIS has been defeated -- @LindseyGrahamSC uses the L-word about
@realDonaldTrump just now on Fox and Friends.
timschochet
Footballguy
Trump took credit for Isis’ defeat which was caused mainly by our Kurdish allies. Allies no more: they’re about to be slaughtered. And there will be genocide.
This is the reason that Mattis resigned.
This is the reason that Mattis resigned.
Lindsey is FIRED UP!!!
Jill Colvin
@colvinj 4m
Graham, calling in to Fox & Friends: "I hope I'm making myself clear how short-sighted and irresponsible this decision is, in my view."
"I like president Trump. I've tried to help him. This to me is just unnerving to its core."
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
America disgraced.
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
Lindsey will flip-flop and be a good boy in weeks.
Sammy3469
Footballguy
whoknew
Footballguy
shader
Footballguy
That one guy
Footballguy
I know there is one, because the question will/has been asked, so what is the “American interest” being advanced with this move? I don’t expect the reason to be doing or logical, but there has to be some excuse being pushed here
