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2024 Summer of Soccer - Euro's, Copa America, Olympics, WCQing (1 Viewer)

I can make a very strong argument that they are playing to "not lose", instead of playing to win.
I get what you're saying and agree they aren't playing to score a ton of goals.

But if I think my chances of advancing are better by holding you to zero goals than they are if I try to score as many as I can, isn't holding you to zero goals trying to win?
I am curious whether the chances of advancing are really better. If the team can score at will (which it sort of seems like), is it not better to try to get up 1-0 or 2-0 in the first half? Would that not increase their chances of winning even more? OTOH, maybe their goals were somewhat lucky, which means that they are being deceived by the results and assuming the strategy works.
 
To Bielsa's comments, maybe FIFA should change things to reward more attacking soccer again, but I'd argue that Southgate and Deschamps have cracked the code under the current format.
Genuinely curious, what would your suggestions be?
the easiest one that is already being tested in lower leagues is to alter the offside rule.

I could see that. So basically your entire body has to be past the defender. Seems reasonable.
 
To Bielsa's comments, maybe FIFA should change things to reward more attacking soccer again, but I'd argue that Southgate and Deschamps have cracked the code under the current format.
Genuinely curious, what would your suggestions be?
the easiest one that is already being tested in lower leagues is to alter the offside rule.

I could see that. So basically your entire body has to be past the defender. Seems reasonable.
correct.

I don't know if this idea was answering your question though. This would help the teams that attack but it would not necessarily encourage teams that believe the best way to win is to not lose to attack more.

I don't think using goals scored as the first tie breaker is useful. That only helps promote extra blow outs and is not going to help in a knock out round game. I have also heard radical suggestions that a 0-0 game should award both teams 0 points but that is terribly unfair as we have all seen dire 0-0 games and have all seen great 0-0 games where the ball just won't go in the net no matter how much the teams are attacking. And again, this idea does nothing for a knock out round game.

I am not sure what rules of a tournament could be that could encourage a knock out round game to be more attacking.

I am of the long belief that the only way to encourage more attacking is to start changing some of the base rules of the game. The offside rule is a good start but it may not be enough.
 
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of all the "no names" who popped this summer, this guy may have a lot of interest soon

=====================================

https://x.com/farhandevji
Farhan Devji

@farhandevji

As much as Jacob Shaffelburg has been a goal scoring threat, he's also second in #CopaAmerica with 0.70 xAG per 90 minutes, according to
@fbref.

In other words, he's setting up more expected goals than anyone in the tournament aside from... Lionel Messi.
 
Genuinely curious, what would your suggestions be?

Well, making offside feet-only would be a great place to start. I think the whole body is just too much of an advantage though -- that's like five feet.

Also, make any tactical foul an automatic yellow. Over and over we see guys get beat and they just rugby tackle the offensive player. Open the game up like the NBA and Hockey have done to great effect. They've done a lot here already, but definitely could do more.

Maybe some sort of group-stage half-point bonus for 2 or 3 goals scored in a game. Make a 2-2 draw worth more than 0-0. Stuff like that.

I spent all of 30 seconds thinking about it, so these may be terrible ideas.
 
Genuinely curious, what would your suggestions be?

Well, making offside feet-only would be a great place to start. I think the whole body is just too much of an advantage though -- that's like five feet.

Also, make any tactical foul an automatic yellow. Over and over we see guys get beat and they just rugby tackle the offensive player. Open the game up like the NBA and Hockey have done to great effect. They've done a lot here already, but definitely could do more.

Maybe some sort of group-stage half-point bonus for 2 or 3 goals scored in a game. Make a 2-2 draw worth more than 0-0. Stuff like that.

I spent all of 30 seconds thinking about it, so these may be terrible ideas.
This.

The whole idea is that it's a "tactical foul" means it's intentionally a foul to stop a goal scoring opportunity. That shouldn't be allowed. Giving a free kick for that usually is the same as no punishment. Same goes for ANY obvious delay. Standing in front of a free kick, tossing a ball away on a throw in, keeper holding it longer than 10 seconds (yes, make it a little longer but then actually enforce it), running with the keeper to prevent a kick or throw, etc -- yellow card for all of them.

Get rid of the garbage and it'll clean the game up and make it so much more enjoyable to watch AND increase scoring.
 
I also think a certain number of fouls should automatically equal a yellow card. These guys that get away with constant "little" fouls and refs don't pull out an accumulation card drives me nuts. Make it objective. Once you commit a 4th or 5th foul, no matter how small, you get a YC. Next one comes after 2 or 3 fouls, no matter what.
 
Genuinely curious, what would your suggestions be?


Maybe some sort of group-stage half-point bonus for 2 or 3 goals scored in a game. Make a 2-2 draw worth more than 0-0. Stuff like that.

This is interesting. What about a point for leading the group in goals? Gives them something to chase over three games.
I think there are a ton of ideas that can be employed in the group stage to incentivize attacking play, but a knock out round game is much more difficult.
 
I also think a certain number of fouls should automatically equal a yellow card. These guys that get away with constant "little" fouls and refs don't pull out an accumulation card drives me nuts. Make it objective. Once you commit a 4th or 5th foul, no matter how small, you get a YC. Next one comes after 2 or 3 fouls, no matter what.
I love this, but my one fear is that it may slow down play as every foul will need to be recorded by some one (the 4th official maybe).

Could we make this into some sort of "team foul" like in basketball, where some form of punishment comes from an accumulation of X fouls?

I also think the reliance on yellow cards hurts the sport. A red card can all but ruin most games. I wish there was a way to punish teams that eventually lead to scoring chances with out the need to threaten expulsion. This only happens right now if a player is fouled in a certain area of the field.
 
I also think a certain number of fouls should automatically equal a yellow card. These guys that get away with constant "little" fouls and refs don't pull out an accumulation card drives me nuts. Make it objective. Once you commit a 4th or 5th foul, no matter how small, you get a YC. Next one comes after 2 or 3 fouls, no matter what.
I love this, but my one fear is that it may slow down play as every foul will need to be recorded by some one (the 4th official maybe).

Could we make this into some sort of "team foul" like in basketball, where some form of punishment comes from an accumulation of X fouls?

I also think the reliance on yellow cards hurts the sport. A red card can all but ruin most games. I wish there was a way to punish teams that led to scoring chances with out the need to threaten expulsion.
Teams know how harmful yellows can be. If they start handing them out for these things, you'd watch this behavior disappear. I don't think it would result in a huge increase in yellows but instead a decrease in what we're trying to eliminate.

And yes, someone else would have to keep track, but it can't be that hard. Employ an extra official for this if you need to that communicates via ear piece to the main official. They don't even have to be out of the field.
 

Well, making offside feet-only would be a great place to start. I think the whole body is just too much of an advantage though -- that's like five feet.
If this was the only rule change, it would do almost nothing to the look of the sport.

And knowing the likelihood of FIFA making two changes to help the offensive side of the sport in what time I have left is very small, I do hope they take this one chance with offside and do something meaningful.

Going with the full body offside may add .75 to 1.25 goals a game and is not going to hurt the sport in any way. This is a sport that for over a century has heavily favored the defensive side of the ball. Giving the attackers the smallest bit of advantage would not only be welcomed, it would be fair.
 
It is an interesting question about how much changing the offside rule would incentivize attacking. It’s probably not really the biggest thing holding it back. You would probably need some way to help the defenders, right? Because that is what the coaches/team are worried about, the opposing side getting some kind of advantage on their offense.
 
It is an interesting question about how much changing the offside rule would incentivize attacking. It’s probably not really the biggest thing holding it back. You would probably need some way to help the defenders, right? Because that is what the coaches/team are worried about, the opposing side getting some kind of advantage on their offense.

The sport does not need to provide any help to defenders IMO. The entire sport is set up to favor the defense. That is why the sport is so low scoring. Almost every other sport makes changes to help the offensive side of the ball when defenses get too strong. I think some sports, like American football, go way too far in this aspect.

But soccer has made exactly two changes to the laws, in the last god knows how many decades, that were intended to help the offense (even is onside and the keeper can't pick up a ball played back to him from his own teammates feet) and neither has had any effect on the amount of goals being scored or the amount of scoring chances created when compared to historical numbers.
 
It is an interesting question about how much changing the offside rule would incentivize attacking. It’s probably not really the biggest thing holding it back. You would probably need some way to help the defenders, right? Because that is what the coaches/team are worried about, the opposing side getting some kind of advantage on their offense.

The sport does not need to provide any help to defenders IMO. The entire sport is set up to favor the defense. That is why the sport is so low scoring. Almost every other sport makes changes to help the offensive side of the ball when defenses get too strong. I think some sports, like American football, go way too far in this aspect.

But soccer has made exactly two changes to the laws, in the last god knows how many decades, that were intended to help the offense (even is onside and the keeper can't pick up a ball played back to him from his own teammates feet) and neither has had any effect on the amount of goals being scored or the amount of scoring chances created when compared to historical numbers.
I get what you are saying, but what I meant (inartfully expressed perhaps) was that in order to get managers to actually be more aggressive, they will probably need something to offset that and give a feeling of comfort that their defenders will be able to manage if they are aggressive on offense. I suppose that in theory, if you have great offensive players, like England, you shouldn’t be that worry about that, but it seems like that is the fundamental issue, no?
 
may add .75 to 1.25 goals
I think where we differ is just that that seems radical to me. It's a ~50% increase in scoring... like going from 100ppg to 150ppg in the NBA.
I think the EPL averaged 3.28 goals per game this season. Adding say 1 goal a game to that is not going to be game breaking IMO, but YMMV.

Leagues where scoring is less, the effect of the rule change would be less and probably add some where between .25 and .5 goals per game.
 
I suppose that in theory, if you have great offensive players, like England, you shouldn’t be that worry about that, but it seems like that is the fundamental issue, no?

There are two distinct problems were are talking about and we may be mingling them in posts

1) How to increase scoring chances across all games

2) Why on earth are teams as good as France and England playing to not lose games instead of running the teams off the field by half time.
 
Interesting discussion...

I don't know if making rules more favored towards the offense will actually help... it might actually incentivize parking the bus in some cases as it could make getting caught out of position a scarier issue.

The one rule change I think should be tried and might actually stop bus parking is taking away offside in the box... If the ball is played from anywhere inside the box, then you can't be offside. I feel like that would be a scary enough situation that teams wouldn't want to be on their defensive end, thus forcing them to try and push forward more.
 
Make the goals bigger and awarded 2 pts for any strike outside of the box.

Personally my only disdain for low scoring games is the impact a bad ref call that leads to a goal has.

Any chance an NHL style offsides could work?
 
Get a yellow? That's 5 minutes in the sin bin for you.

It'll probably never happen because of rugby but it's more punitive than just a card and might reduce the professional fouls everybody hates.
 
Southgate has gone out at Q-finals, Semi-finals and Finals of his previous three tournaments and has them in the Semis again today. No other England manager has come close to this.

Under Deschamps, France has gone out in the Q-finals of the 2014 World Cup, the Finals of Euro 2016, won the 2018 WC, made the final of the 2022 WC (losing on PKs), and are in the semis again now despite playing badly.

You can hate the way they play, but you can't argue they aren't playing to win IMO -- it's almost all they've done for a long time.

To Bielsa's comments, maybe FIFA should change things to reward more attacking soccer again, but I'd argue that Southgate and Deschamps have cracked the code under the current format.

By doing what?
 
Interesting discussion...

I don't know if making rules more favored towards the offense will actually help...

It's made the NFL borderline unwatchable so be careful what you all wish for

But there is a massive difference here.

Soccer has not made any real changes that effected the on field play to the rules since 1992.

The NFL makes rule changes almost every single year.

Soccer would need real rule changes for almost 20 years straight years before we got any where near what has happened in the NFL, and I agree no one wants that.

Comparing FIFA to MLB is more useful as MLB took forever to make any changes, to their detriment. Soccer is not yet in this area of concern thankfully, no matter what Bielsa said.
 
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Get a yellow? That's 5 minutes in the sin bin for you.

It'll probably never happen because of rugby but it's more punitive than just a card and might reduce the professional fouls everybody hates.
Im pretty sure they're trialing this somewhere. Something I've been wanting for a while too.
 
the EPL averaged 3.28 goals per game
I had it in my head it was more like 2.5-2.6, so you're right -- not as big a thing I was was thinking.

ETA: looks like it was more like 2.8 up until last year. Wonder what happened?
More extra time? I'd be interested to see the histogram of goals vs. minute on the clock.

There have been a bunch of studies on this topic.

With large samples of data from many leagues, the conclusions were that there are more goals in the second half than in the first and the busiest time frame for goals is after the 75th minute mark.

It makes sense that there are more goals late than early given some teams are finally forced to attack to get back into a game late and either they score or leave space open for the opponents to counter and score.
 
Also, make any tactical foul an automatic yellow.
I like this. You don't make a play on the ball and just yank on the player? Yellow. You play the ball and miss, but it's not inherently dangerous? No yellow. You make a dangerous play and you get a yellow.
A team like Uruguay specializes in this.

They take simple fouls in the midfield that they are never carded for and as such get no real punishment for since a free kick from midfield is useless for the opponent. But their fouls many times can kill counter attacks which could have led to scoring chances.
 
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the EPL averaged 3.28 goals per game
I had it in my head it was more like 2.5-2.6, so you're right -- not as big a thing I was was thinking.

ETA: looks like it was more like 2.8 up until last year. Wonder what happened?
More extra time? I'd be interested to see the histogram of goals vs. minute on the clock.
I didn't finish this pod, but they discussed it on here: https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/podcast/145-football-tactics-podcast/episode-234/

extra time did seem to make a difference, as there were at least 30 more goals than usual scored after the 90th minute and total time played added the equivalent of like 14 games over the usual.

Also, a lot more goals were being scored after dead balls and seemingly more set pieces were being emloyed.

They also noted that the number of goals scored was way above xG, whereas last year it was below xG, so there may have been some variance that is not sustainable.
 
Also, make any tactical foul an automatic yellow.
I like this. You don't make a play on the ball and just yank on the player? Yellow. You play the ball and miss, but it's not inherently dangerous? No yellow. You make a dangerous play and you get a yellow.
A team like Uruguay specializes in this.

They take simple fouls in the midfield that they are never carded for and as such get no real punishment for since a free kick from midfield is useless for the opponent. But their fouls many times can kill counter attacks which could have led to scoring chances.
I also think the 5 subs rather than 3 has increased this. When teams had 3 subs they usually used them to get fresh attackers or saved them for injury issues. The 2 extras seem to be used to have your MF foul for 60 minutes then replace him with a new fouler for the last 30 especially if the starter has a yellow.
 
Felix Zwayer will be reffing the England Netherlands game.

Zwayer, in his past, has been suspended for taking bribes to fix matches. You would think this would be one of those "one strike and you are done" offenses for refs where they are then banned from reffing a pro game ever again.
And Bellingham was fined something like 40K - for criticizing him in the Bundesliga ....
 
Felix Zwayer will be reffing the England Netherlands game.

Zwayer, in his past, has been suspended for taking bribes to fix matches. You would think this would be one of those "one strike and you are done" offenses for refs where they are then banned from reffing a pro game ever again.
And Bellingham was fined something like 40K - for criticizing him in the Bundesliga ....
And the German FA hid the match fixing suspension from the public. It was only after a newspaper got a hold of a secret file and published it did it become known.
 
Also, make any tactical foul an automatic yellow.
I like this. You don't make a play on the ball and just yank on the player? Yellow. You play the ball and miss, but it's not inherently dangerous? No yellow. You make a dangerous play and you get a yellow.
A team like Uruguay specializes in this.

They take simple fouls in the midfield that they are never carded for and as such get no real punishment for since a free kick from midfield is useless for the opponent. But their fouls many times can kill counter attacks which could have led to scoring chances.
I also think the 5 subs rather than 3 has increased this. When teams had 3 subs they usually used them to get fresh attackers or saved them for injury issues. The 2 extras seem to be used to have your MF foul for 60 minutes then replace him with a new fouler for the last 30 especially if the starter has a yellow.

This is why I was thinking that maybe soccer needs some sort of "total team fouls" punishment. It is too easy to spread a ton of fouls out these days.
 
Felix Zwayer will be reffing the England Netherlands game.

Zwayer, in his past, has been suspended for taking bribes to fix matches. You would think this would be one of those "one strike and you are done" offenses for refs where they are then banned from reffing a pro game ever again.
That's pretty absurd. There must be some serious referee shortage....or these confederations are hopelessly corrupt...
 
Felix Zwayer will be reffing the England Netherlands game.

Zwayer, in his past, has been suspended for taking bribes to fix matches. You would think this would be one of those "one strike and you are done" offenses for refs where they are then banned from reffing a pro game ever again.
That's pretty absurd. There must be some serious referee shortage....or these confederations are hopelessly corrupt...
Uh... I think we already know the answer.
 
Also, make any tactical foul an automatic yellow.
I like this. You don't make a play on the ball and just yank on the player? Yellow. You play the ball and miss, but it's not inherently dangerous? No yellow. You make a dangerous play and you get a yellow.
A team like Uruguay specializes in this.

They take simple fouls in the midfield that they are never carded for and as such get no real punishment for since a free kick from midfield is useless for the opponent. But their fouls many times can kill counter attacks which could have led to scoring chances.
I also think the 5 subs rather than 3 has increased this. When teams had 3 subs they usually used them to get fresh attackers or saved them for injury issues. The 2 extras seem to be used to have your MF foul for 60 minutes then replace him with a new fouler for the last 30 especially if the starter has a yellow.

This is why I was thinking that maybe soccer needs some sort of "total team fouls" punishment. It is too easy to spread a ton of fouls out these days.

Just catching up but maybe after you get say 5 more fouls than your opponent you send a player to the sin bin.

The only issue with that is some 11 v 10 matches are some of the worst I've ever watched.

And to some degree this is a tournament style issue that we don't see as much in league play. But CL, WC, Euros and COPA are huge so would be good to figure it out. I think the offside rule makes the most sense as unlike playing with 10 men you can't just bunker in to fix offside - especially if you do that in combination with the no offsides in the penalty box.
 

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