I think Lebron is Better than Jordan (1 Viewer)

[Cliff Clavin]

Those saying Lebron could average more points - why isn't he? He's just so modest that he wants to have a lower average? And Jordan maxed out his avg points; it wasn't possible for Jordan to avg more? I don't get that argument.

LeBron was 10th in the league in FGA attempts this year. He averaged 4 less shots per game than MJ did throughout their careers (not counting the Wiz days). LeBron averaged 17 FGA per game this year which was lower than MJ ever attempted (18.6 in his rookie year). His efficiency once again rose to levels unseen by wing players in the history of the league; yes, better than MJ ever did. No one in the league can stop LeBron from getting his shot off. He could easily put up 6-7 more shots per game and increase his scoring put a minimum of 10 points. He said a few times that he could easily win the scoring title if he wanted but he didn't think that was conducive to his team winning.

If LeBron went full on chucker at the expense of his team (like Kobe or Melo), he could average 40.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Jordan averaged 37+ points in his second full season and followed that up with 35+. Lebron has never sniffed those totals. Jordan won 3 rings, took of 2+ years to play baseball, then comes back and wins 3 more, including winning it all his first year back. Then at age 40 he comes back again and averages 20. The guys does all this against guys who don't wear fake glasses and bow ties. Jordan >>>>> Lebron and it will never be debatable.

If you don't think LeBron could average 37+, well, you'd be very wrong.

I'm not ready to say LeBron is better than Jordan, but I think he could score 35 points a game pretty much whenver he wanted. He averaged 35 points a game in the playoffs when he led that horrible Cleveland team to the finals.

Cleveland won 66 and 61 games in LeBron's last two years there, they won 19 the year after he left. Bulls won 57 the year before Jordan went to play baseball, they won 55 the year after. Yeah they won a championship that year before but Lebron essentially was playing by himself in Cleveland and they were damn good.

By no means am I saying LeBron is better; far too early to crown him yet. He should have at least 6-7 good years left and after that we can start talking. I also don't like comparing between eras. The game and the physical abilities of the players were different. IMO, the way to argue who was better is which player was more dominate over his peers. Its like trying to compare say Gretzky vs Crosby (and it isn't close, just using an example). No way in hell Crosby will ever match Gretzky's numbers with the way the game is played today. And with the grinding and trapping that takes place in today's NHL, you won't ever see a dynasty again like you did with the Oilers, Habs or Islanders.

 

[Abraham]

Those saying Lebron could average more points - why isn't he? He's just so modest that he wants to have a lower average? And Jordan maxed out his avg points; it wasn't possible for Jordan to avg more? I don't get that argument.

LeBron was 10th in the league in FGA attempts this year. He averaged 4 less shots per game than MJ did throughout their careers (not counting the Wiz days). LeBron averaged 17 FGA per game this year which was lower than MJ ever attempted (18.6 in his rookie year). His efficiency once again rose to levels unseen by wing players in the history of the league; yes, better than MJ ever did. No one in the league can stop LeBron from getting his shot off. He could easily put up 6-7 more shots per game and increase his scoring put a minimum of 10 points. He said a few times that he could easily win the scoring title if he wanted but he didn't think that was conducive to his team winning.

If LeBron went full on chucker at the expense of his team (like Kobe or Melo), he could average 40.

That doesn't make any sense unless you also add to the argument that Lebron shooting more would have him scoring less efficiency. Otherwise, the most efficient scorer shooting the most = a more efficient offense = more wins.

So the argument isn't "Lebron doesn't shoot more because its not conducive to the team winning." The argument is "Lebron shooting more would result in less efficient scoring which is not conducive to the team winning."

 

[Abraham]

By no means am I saying LeBron is better; far too early to crown him yet. He should have at least 6-7 good years left and after that we can start talking. I also don't like comparing between eras. The game and the physical abilities of the players were different. IMO, the way to argue who was better is which player was more dominate over his peers. Its like trying to compare say Gretzky vs Crosby (and it isn't close, just using an example). No way in hell Crosby will ever match Gretzky's numbers with the way the game is played today. And with the grinding and trapping that takes place in today's NHL, you won't ever seen a dynasty again like you did with the Oilers, Habs or Islanders.

Agree completely. It's a much much different game then it used to be. Guys like Luc Longley and Bill Wennington played meaningful minutes on Championship teams. Now the athleticism of every center except Kendrick Perkins would gobble them alive. Michael Jordan and Gary Payton might well struggle to keep Russell Westbrook in front of them. But it goes both ways obviously. The game was much more physical back then with a lot more contact being made and a lot less worry that hard fouls would result in suspension.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Those saying Lebron could average more points - why isn't he? He's just so modest that he wants to have a lower average? And Jordan maxed out his avg points; it wasn't possible for Jordan to avg more? I don't get that argument.

LeBron was 10th in the league in FGA attempts this year. He averaged 4 less shots per game than MJ did throughout their careers (not counting the Wiz days). LeBron averaged 17 FGA per game this year which was lower than MJ ever attempted (18.6 in his rookie year). His efficiency once again rose to levels unseen by wing players in the history of the league; yes, better than MJ ever did. No one in the league can stop LeBron from getting his shot off. He could easily put up 6-7 more shots per game and increase his scoring put a minimum of 10 points. He said a few times that he could easily win the scoring title if he wanted but he didn't think that was conducive to his team winning.

If LeBron went full on chucker at the expense of his team (like Kobe or Melo), he could average 40.

That doesn't make any sense unless you also add to the argument that Lebron shooting more would have him scoring less efficiency. Otherwise, the most efficient scorer shooting the most = a more efficient offense = more wins.

So the argument isn't "Lebron doesn't shoot more because its not conducive to the team winning." The argument is "Lebron shooting more would result in less efficient scoring which is not conducive to the team winning."

Phrase it however you want. Yes his efficiency would almost certainly go down. So if he takes 6-7 more shots, his efficiency might drop from god-like to just really good. Using my advanced mind-reading skills, LeBron thinks that scoring efficiently and getting teammates involved is more conducive to winning that having his teammates watch him go Kobestyle. We could argue that he may be too focused on efficiency and that he needs to be more aggressive like Jordan was but I think that would be nit-picking. They've been one of the most efficient offences in the league since he went to Miami so I'd say he's doing it right.

 

[DrJ]

Those saying Lebron could average more points - why isn't he? He's just so modest that he wants to have a lower average? And Jordan maxed out his avg points; it wasn't possible for Jordan to avg more? I don't get that argument.

LeBron was 10th in the league in FGA attempts this year. He averaged 4 less shots per game than MJ did throughout their careers (not counting the Wiz days). LeBron averaged 17 FGA per game this year which was lower than MJ ever attempted (18.6 in his rookie year). His efficiency once again rose to levels unseen by wing players in the history of the league; yes, better than MJ ever did. No one in the league can stop LeBron from getting his shot off. He could easily put up 6-7 more shots per game and increase his scoring put a minimum of 10 points. He said a few times that he could easily win the scoring title if he wanted but he didn't think that was conducive to his team winning.

If LeBron went full on chucker at the expense of his team (like Kobe or Melo), he could average 40.

That doesn't make any sense unless you also add to the argument that Lebron shooting more would have him scoring less efficiency. Otherwise, the most efficient scorer shooting the most = a more efficient offense = more wins.

So the argument isn't "Lebron doesn't shoot more because its not conducive to the team winning." The argument is "Lebron shooting more would result in less efficient scoring which is not conducive to the team winning."

Phrase it however you want. Yes his efficiency would almost certainly go down. So if he takes 6-7 more shots, his efficiency might drop from god-like to just really good. Using my advanced mind-reading skills, LeBron thinks that scoring efficiently and getting teammates involved is more conducive to winning that having his teammates watch him go Kobestyle. We could argue that he may be too focused on efficiency and that he needs to be more aggressive like Jordan was but I think that would be nit-picking. They've been one of the most efficient offences in the league since he went to Miami so I'd say he's doing it right.

They've got Lebron, D-Wade, and Bosh. Of course they're going to be one of the most efficient offenses in the league. But they're still not as efficient as they could be if one of the most dominating physical specimens the league has seen would actually force defenses to account for him even more than they already do. That's where Jordan racked up his assists at just as frequent of a rate - he forced half of the defense to collapse on him and then dished one of those sick passes to a teammate streaking down the lane.

Shaq doing what he did wasn't "less conducive to winning". It was the most dominating physical specimen in the game imposing his will, changing the way the defense had to play, and creating opportunities for his teammates in the process.

 

[Abraham]

They've got Lebron, D-Wade, and Bosh. Of course they're going to be one of the most efficient offenses in the league. But they're still not as efficient as they could be if one of the most dominating physical specimens the league has seen would actually force defenses to account for him even more than they already do. That's where Jordan racked up his assists at just as frequent of a rate - he forced half of the defenses to collapse on him and then dished one of those sick passes to a teammate streaking down the lane.

I understand the argument; I don't accept it's premise. If the goal is to win as many games as possible then the best way to do that is to have the most efficient scorer shooting the ball as much as possible. There isn't any argument where Lebron shooting more leads to winning fewer games unless he isn't scoring with the same efficiency.

 

[DrJ]

They've got Lebron, D-Wade, and Bosh. Of course they're going to be one of the most efficient offenses in the league. But they're still not as efficient as they could be if one of the most dominating physical specimens the league has seen would actually force defenses to account for him even more than they already do. That's where Jordan racked up his assists at just as frequent of a rate - he forced half of the defenses to collapse on him and then dished one of those sick passes to a teammate streaking down the lane.

I understand the argument; I don't accept it's premise. If the goal is to win as many games as possible then the best way to do that is to have the most efficient scorer shooting the ball as much as possible. There isn't any argument where Lebron shooting more leads to winning fewer games unless he isn't scoring with the same efficiency.

Odds are his efficiency would go down. But I still don't think that's less conducive to winning - Shaq could have been remarkably "efficient" if all he ever did was dunk when it was given to him and pass the rest of the time. But he doesn't change the way the defense plays nearly as much by doing that, and you lose a ton of his value.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Those saying Lebron could average more points - why isn't he? He's just so modest that he wants to have a lower average? And Jordan maxed out his avg points; it wasn't possible for Jordan to avg more? I don't get that argument.

LeBron was 10th in the league in FGA attempts this year. He averaged 4 less shots per game than MJ did throughout their careers (not counting the Wiz days). LeBron averaged 17 FGA per game this year which was lower than MJ ever attempted (18.6 in his rookie year). His efficiency once again rose to levels unseen by wing players in the history of the league; yes, better than MJ ever did. No one in the league can stop LeBron from getting his shot off. He could easily put up 6-7 more shots per game and increase his scoring put a minimum of 10 points. He said a few times that he could easily win the scoring title if he wanted but he didn't think that was conducive to his team winning.

If LeBron went full on chucker at the expense of his team (like Kobe or Melo), he could average 40.

Is there a way to compare nba scoring from the same times? Feels like scoring is down today compared to then but could be wrong

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Those saying Lebron could average more points - why isn't he? He's just so modest that he wants to have a lower average? And Jordan maxed out his avg points; it wasn't possible for Jordan to avg more? I don't get that argument.

LeBron was 10th in the league in FGA attempts this year. He averaged 4 less shots per game than MJ did throughout their careers (not counting the Wiz days). LeBron averaged 17 FGA per game this year which was lower than MJ ever attempted (18.6 in his rookie year). His efficiency once again rose to levels unseen by wing players in the history of the league; yes, better than MJ ever did. No one in the league can stop LeBron from getting his shot off. He could easily put up 6-7 more shots per game and increase his scoring put a minimum of 10 points. He said a few times that he could easily win the scoring title if he wanted but he didn't think that was conducive to his team winning.

If LeBron went full on chucker at the expense of his team (like Kobe or Melo), he could average 40.

Is there a way to compare nba scoring from the same times? Feels like scoring is down today compared to then but could be wrong

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

There was a big dip in scoring from '96 to '03. Right now the league is back to '93 levels and trending upwards. Jordan's first 3 titles the league averaged about 106 per game, his next 3 were at around 97.

There was a big drop in pace (possessions per 48 minutes) around '95 that led to a drop in scoring. This year was the first year that the pace was higher than in '95, and not surprisingly, this year was also the highest scoring year since '95. And also, the Sixers.

 

[Brony]

I remember Derrick Rose playing a perfect playoff game a couple of years ago. He was in control of every possession in the 4th quarter, busted his butt on every play and simply willed the Bulls to a win over Atlanta. He finished with 44 points and it took everything out of him. Then they showed this stat:

Number of 40+ point playoff games by Bulls:

Derrick Rose: 1

Michael Jordan: 38

 

[Tau837]

The following things make me believe Jordan was a greater player than Lebron:

1. More titles

2. More honors (more MVPs, more Finals MVPs, more All NBA selections, more All Defense selections, DPOY)

3. Played tougher competition in his conference and in the playoffs, yet still won and dominated while doing so

4. Better in the clutch (not that Lebron isn't great, just not on Jordan's level IMO)

5. The eye test, having watched all of both of their careers (not every game, but many, including most playoff games)

IMO their supporting casts are close enough to be a wash. IMO Lebron's supporting cast in Miami is better than Jordan's in the first threepeat and similar, perhaps not quite as good, as Jordan's in the second threepeat.

Sure, Lebron will most likely end up with better statistics, mostly due to the fact that he will play many more games. And he will probably catch and surpass Jordan in some of the honors.

But in the total picture, Jordan was greater IMO. And, while Lebron is probably closer to Jordan than any other player in NBA history, there is still a sizable gap there IMO.

I thought of a couple more reasons.

Another part of Jordan's greatness is his non-NBA accomplishments. Given that part of this comparison will inevitably include Lebron playing a lot more NBA games and accumulating more statistics, in part since he entered the league at a younger age, it is fair to include Jordan's pre-NBA accomplishments. Notably:

1. Hit the game winning shot to win a NCAA championship
2. 1st team All American his sophomore and junior seasons in college
3. College POY in junior season
4. Best player and leading scorer on 1984 gold medal Olympic team

Jordan was also the best player on the 1992 Dream Team that won the Olympic gold medal. I know Lebron has 2 Olympic gold medals, too, but Jordan's were more impressive IMO:

1. Entering the 1984 Olympics, U.S. college players had not won a World Championship in basketball since 1954. As for the Olympics, the U.S. lost controversially in 1972, won gold in 1976, boycotted in 1980, and would go on to win bronze in 1988... the world's men's teams had surpassed U.S. college players in that era. So the 1984 team's performance was particularly impressive.
2. The original Dream Team trumps the 2008 and 2012 teams of NBA players in terms of legacy/greatness.
3. Lebron played on the 2004 Olympic team that won bronze, and also won one gold and one bronze in FIBA championships. A good record, but not as good as Jordan's 2/2 golds.

Also, I noticed that there has been some discussion of efficiency in this thread. So it's worth noting that Jordan is #1 in career Player Efficiency Rating and Lebron is #2.

Jordan is also #1 in Win Shares per 48 minutes, which is the only rate statistic for Win Shares I see at basketball-reference.com. Lebron is #5.

 

[flapgreen]

I have a feeling Lebron will leap frog Jordan as my #1 after his career is over. Lebron still has so much basketabll left. He is a complete player though. And Jordan was the greatest I have ever seen......thus far over the course of an entire career.

Lebron works just as hard though....don't fool yourself. This guy works on every facet of his game in the summer. He is clearly a much better player in year 3 of his current Heat tenure than year one.

Clearly.

Can you get me an autograph?

 

[Annyong]

I think Jordan is better because he shot a free throw with his eyes closed.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I think Jordan is better because he shot a free throw with his eyes closed.

Can't imagine what you think of Bo Kimble.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Also, I noticed that there has been some discussion of efficiency in this thread. So it's worth noting that Jordan is #1 in career Player Efficiency Rating and Lebron is #2.

Jordan is also #1 in Win Shares per 48 minutes, which is the only rate statistic for Win Shares I see at basketball-reference.com. Lebron is #5.

I was talking about shooting efficiency. Jordan never sniffed what LeBron has done the last two seasons with regards to TS% and eFG%.

LeBron's has two of the top 3 (1st and 3rd) WS/48 between the two of them

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Relevant

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Relevant

lol

 

[Joe T]

Pippen was a poor man's Tracy McGrady.

 

[Joe T]

LeBron's going to blow past him numbers wise. Both regular season and playoffs. LeBron has about 50 more playoff games under his belt than MJ had at the same age. Number of titles is really the only thing in question. But since that's all that matters LeBron still has a lot of work to do.

Hint: Starting earlier <> better

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Through what's probably the middle of LeBron's peak years, I think Jordan is the better player. We'll see how LeBron does in the second half of his career. I know there was talk about a steep drop off in his defensive game this season, but I haven't watched enough of him this season to see what's going on there.

His success has always been supported by being outlandishly more athletic for his size than the rest of the league. Jordan was able to adapt his game as he got older to continue a high performance level even once his physical tools started to come back to the pack. LeBron will have to do the same.

 

[cstu]

Those saying Lebron could average more points - why isn't he? He's just so modest that he wants to have a lower average? And Jordan maxed out his avg points; it wasn't possible for Jordan to avg more? I don't get that argument.

To some extent, yes.

If you watched him in high school one of the surprising things was that he would look to pass instead of shooting.

This was back in 2002 when Kobe and Iverson never saw a shot they didn't like so it was particularly shocking. His personality plays a part in his lower numbers.

 

[cstu]

In an interview with Sports Illustrated, Daly described the Jordan Rules as:[2]

“ If Michael was at the point, we forced him left and doubled him. If he was on the left wing, we went immediately to a double team from the top. If he was on the right wing, we went to a slow double team. He could hurt you equally from either wing—hell, he could hurt you from the hot-dog stand—but we just wanted to vary the look. And if he was on the box, we doubled with a big guy. The other rule was, any time he went by you, you had to nail him. If he was coming off a screen, nail him. We didn't want to be dirty—I know some people thought we were—but we had to make contact and be very physical.

If you can't beat him, beat him up.

 

[Jayrod]

In an interview with Sports Illustrated, Daly described the Jordan Rules as:[2]

“ If Michael was at the point, we forced him left and doubled him. If he was on the left wing, we went immediately to a double team from the top. If he was on the right wing, we went to a slow double team. He could hurt you equally from either wing—hell, he could hurt you from the hot-dog stand—but we just wanted to vary the look. And if he was on the box, we doubled with a big guy.The other rule was, any time he went by you, you had to nail him. If he was coming off a screen, nail him. We didn't want to be dirty—I know some people thought we were—but we had to make contact and be very physical.

If you can't beat him, beat him up.

Bumping/blocking cutters is essential to any decent man-to-man defense. Sounds like they just accented it with Jordan to include any time they passed by him.