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Music Draft - Rolling Stone Greatest 500 Songs Garbage List - Now with unhealthy regional pork-stuffs! (2 Viewers)

zamboni said:
Fantastic use in <insert any random Vietnam War movie>.
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Along with Fortunate Son and the Jimi song to be taken later.

I have to admit that while White Rabbit isn't a song I think about much at all, I thought it worked incredibly well in the new Matrix trailer.

EDIT:  Maybe I was just pleasantly surprised that they hadn't used some minor key slowed-down cover of a song like every other trailer does.

 
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I don't know how you ignore political and cultural impact.  Even if I didn't think that Fortunate Son was a better song than Down on the Corner or something, one of them has had a much bigger impact on the culture.

 
simey said:
😃   Duritz isn't chubby anymore. He was in a very good mood last night. He introduced Frank Turner when he opened, and stayed on the side of the stage for Frank's whole set, and sang along to his songs (but not in a mic).  I think it was the song "Hanginaround" that Frank came on stage and sang during the CCs show.  When the CCs finished and the lights came on in the venue and music played over the speakers, Duritz stayed for the first song on the speakers, and danced and sang to it standing on some pillars. He was in a happy state of mind. 
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Hanginaround was actually an earworm of mine when I got back from Italy for some reason. I'd gotten a little raccoon for my luggage that clings to it, letting you know the luggage is yours. I put one on my weekend carrier and anthropomorphized it by giving it that theme song.

I've been hanging around this town on the corner
I've been bumming around this whole town for way too long

[guitar riff]

I still love how reviled the Counting Crows were yet the Gaslight Anthem quoted their lyrics in a song, because, well #### you, you know?

And Maria came from Nashville with a suitcase in her hand
I always kinda sorta wished I looked like Elvis

 
Steve Tasker said:
3.24 - Mobb Deep - "Shook Ones (Part II)" (#215)

Another one where I have no idea if I'm in any danger of being sniped, so this may be about 12 rounds too early.  But for me personally, this is probably my single favorite hip-hop song ever, so I was pleased to see it on the top 500 list.

#201 - 225 has some absolute gems.  It's a pretty stacked category.  But I'd be remiss if I didn't grab this one.
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Wow. This was not a snipe, but I definitely considered this for a little bit later. It actually was one of my top from that strong grouping.

 
my go-to karaoke song is Night and Day, by Sinatra. the album version, where he has an intro "like the beat, beat, beat of the tom-toms..." that I have to add into the mix because the Karaoke version doesn't usually include it. :nerd:

If you can stay remotely in pitch, Frank is the easiest to nail.

so to speak.

 
Binky The Doormat said:
agree to disagree.

if you were staring down the barrel of getting drafted - it was a big deal

and hey, it's no Country Joe & the Fish.
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There is a guy out at the colony that works and lives at the welding place where most of the cats live. He feeds them for me sometimes. He is the one who put the antenna on top of the cat shack (before a hurricane blew it off) so the cats "could watch animal planet". Anyway, he told me a few years ago that after high school he and a friend went backpacking for a couple weeks, and he came back to a draft card in the mail. This was 1970. He looked at me and said, "I wasn't no fortunate son." He still remembers details about his year tour in Vietnam. It messed him up. He has been sober now for about 6 years. I still can't talk him into getting vaccinated, but I'm not giving up.

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
I don't know how you ignore political and cultural impact.  Even if I didn't think that Fortunate Son was a better song than Down on the Corner or something, one of them has had a much bigger impact on the culture.
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But if it’s not a better song, why should it be treated as such? 

If you want to talk about cultural impact, I could make a very good argument that the two “greatest” songs of the 20th century were “Over the Rainbow” and “White Christmas”, neither of which are on this list. 

 
I think the political and cultural import debate is an interesting one that'll never be resolved. Sometimes the "political and cultural" import comes from a groundswell of popular support and love by the populace. Other times the "political and cultural" import is more top-down and comes from tastemakers and those seeking to rewrite history in some form or fashion.

Mileage varies about all those things depending on who you ask. It's a delicate process to undertake, lest the list be swallowed by politics instead of art, which for some people, is the point.

For me, it's an interesting question. I watched one of my favorite modern acts go through the question and were beloved by critics this past year for taking a more overtly political tack. Fans were pretty unanimous, but I wanted them to be careful with their stridency lest they alienate somebody like me, though I've known both of their allegiances for a long time and am not surprised and even partly support what they're saying. I was just able to get behind the act so ardently at first because they had shelved politics for the sake of form. As they found it more untenable to do that, so hasn't my respect for them grown, but disagreements also.

It's a fine line to walk. It can leave one utterly prescient, or utterly of the moment and dated some ten years later, tops.

 
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It kind of baffles me that a list trying to be modern and have seemingly have some 'rock cred' to it doesn't have any Arcade Fire on it. The most recent version NME did of a list like this had 'Wake Up' at #25

 
timschochet said:
But if it’s not a better song, why should it be treated as such? 

If you want to talk about cultural impact, I could make a very good argument that the two “greatest” songs of the 20th century were “Over the Rainbow” and “White Christmas”, neither of which are on this list. 
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Here is a concrete example.  Your first pick was Dylan's "Like a Rolling Stone."  Totally deserves to be high on the list in my judgment.  But I feel pretty confident that I could find some covers of the song that would be rated higher by random listeners who have never heard the song before.  In your view, should the list have the Dylan version, or some random youtube guy that nobody has ever heard of?

 
rockaction said:
I think the political and cultural import debate is an interesting one that'll never be resolved. Sometimes the "political and cultural" import comes from a groundswell of popular support and love by the populace. Other times the "political and cultural" import is more top-down and comes from tastemakers and those seeking to rewrite history in some form or fashion.

Mileage varies about all those things depending on who you ask. It's a delicate process to undertake, lest the list be swallowed by politics instead of art, which for some people, is the point.

For me, it's an interesting question. I watched one of my favorite modern acts go through the question and were beloved by critics this past year for taking a more overtly political tack. Fans were pretty unanimous, but I wanted them to be careful with their stridency lest the alienate somebody like me, though I've known both of their allegiances for a long time and am not surprised. I was just able to get behind it at first because they had shelved politics for the sake of form. As they found it more untenable to do that, so hasn't my respect for them grown, but disagreements also.

It's a fine line to walk. It can leave one utterly prescient, or utterly of the moment and dated some ten years later, tops.
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Fair post. 
Let me revise my earlier argument- yes cultural influence can play a part I suppose but nowhere near as big a part as RS would have it play. 

Political import is a different issue. I don’t mean to be cynical but I am highly skeptical that any song in history has ever had a significant political impact. At best a song such as “Strange Fruit”, or “Ohio” can reflect a public attitude that already exists, but it never creates that attitude. 

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
Here is a concrete example.  Your first pick was Dylan's "Like a Rolling Stone."  Totally deserves to be high on the list in my judgment.  But I feel pretty confident that I could find some covers of the song that would be rated higher by random listeners who have never heard the song before.  In your view, should the list have the Dylan version, or some random youtube guy that nobody has ever heard of?
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Obviously the Dylan version. But popularity is not the same as cultural impact. Obviously I acknowledge that everyone of these songs has a certain level of popularity and I have no problem with that. 
And couldn’t I stretch your argument to say that Dylan’s version of “Watchtower” should be on the list instead of Jimi’s? Dylan’s version was t obscure by any means. 

 
timschochet said:
Fair post. 
Let me revise my earlier argument- yes cultural influence can play a part I suppose but nowhere near as big a part as RS would have it play. 

Political import is a different issue. I don’t mean to be cynical but I am highly skeptical that any song in history has ever had a significant political impact. At best a song such as “Strange Fruit”, or “Ohio” can reflect a public attitude that already exists, but it never creates that attitude. 
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I was sympathetic to your claim, actually. I just think that it's an exercise in tilting at windmills. Pip put it so expertly just upthread: You're trying to find logic in a Rolling Stone list that's going for eyeballs, clicks, and news outlets. To wit: KTLA did a midday segment on the list and weren't the hosts happy to present to all the stay-at-homes everywhere that Aretha Franklin was #1 with R-E-S-P-E-C-T?! That's what RS was going for. To use their trademark goodwill to stir discussion and further build their brand.

They've got us doing a draft there's so much goodwill in their name. (I'm doing it because NV and k4 have goodwill in my book, and they were the originators of the idea. Plus, what else am I going to do? Ruin my dynasty team some more?)

 
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Debating whether my next pick will be my favourite song left on the list or the last song in its group that I truly love - but I also may be the only one who wants - but picking it in these early stages may also get people to listen to it and appreciate its greatness  :oldunsure:

 
timschochet said:
And couldn’t I stretch your argument to say that Dylan’s version of “Watchtower” should be on the list instead of Jimi’s? Dylan’s version was t obscure by any means. 
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Given that there are four songs that appear on the list with two different versions, I was kind of surprised that there was only one version of Watchtower. Freakin' everyone has covered it. 

 
Northern Voice said:
It kind of baffles me that a list trying to be modern and have seemingly have some 'rock cred' to it doesn't have any Arcade Fire on it. The most recent version NME did of a list like this had 'Wake Up' at #25
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Could arguably throw "Rebellion (Lies)" in the top 500 somewhere too.  "Wake Up" has to be the most obvious choice though.

 
rockaction said:
I was sympathetic to your claim, actually. I just think that it's an exercise in tilting at windmills because Pip put it so expertly just upthread. You're trying to find logic in a Rolling Stone list that's going for eyeballs, clicks, and news outlets. To wit: KTLA did a midday segment on the list and weren't the hosts happy to present to all the stay-at-homes everywhere that Aretha Franklin was #1 with R-E-S-P-E-C-T. That's what RS was going for. To use their trademark goodwill to stir discussion and further build their brand.

They've got us doing a draft there's so much goodwill in their name. (I'm doing it because NV and k4 have goodwill in my book, and they were the originators of the idea. Plus, what else am I going to do? Ruin my dynasty team some more?)
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One of my biggest flaws is that I try to find logic in everything. Your claim is that RS went into this list with no internal logic or rules whatsoever? I can’t really buy that. 

 
Northern Voice said:
Debating whether my next pick will be my favourite song left on the list or the last song in its group that I truly love - but I also may be the only one who wants - but picking it in these early stages may also get people to listen to it and appreciate its greatness  :oldunsure:
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There are 2 specific songs out there that I've mentally marked as NV songs, but if you don't take em, I will.  Wonder if we're talking about the same ones.

 
Northern Voice said:
Debating whether my next pick will be my favourite song left on the list or the last song in its group that I truly love - but I also may be the only one who wants - but picking it in these early stages may also get people to listen to it and appreciate its greatness  :oldunsure:
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I'm glad krista is taking her time. I have two I'm struggling with, and I think one of them nobody will take until late.

 
All the picks in this segment have started to make the proportions between my green and my red awfully scary, plus the Beatles picks (attempted and real) have me worried.

4.06  The Beatles - Strawberry Fields Forever (#7)

This was my #11 on my original countdown, but I am a dummy and if I were to do it over and correctly, it would be #5 or #6.  Here's what I said at the time:

This feels like a song I shouldn’t write up, since it’s so beloved by music critics and actual humans alike.  What could I possibly add?  

Like The Song That Shall Not Be Named that is the other a-side of this single, it’s a look back at scenes from the writer’s childhood.  But it doesn’t wallow in nostalgia; instead it uses those memories as a means for self-reflection.   Oh man, I really can’t do it.  I can’t speak eloquently or interestingly about such a masterpiece.  

Here are some things I love, in no particular order:

The lyrics.  John called the song “psychoanalysis set to music.”  Though Strawberry Field was a real place that John played in as a child, “nothing is real” here and the song addresses deep feelings of alienation and feeling different (“No one I think is in my tree, I mean it must be high or low”).  The lyrics, as in “Nowhere Man,” seem like a conversation John is having with himself, working through his ambivalence in real-time within the lyrics:

Living is easy with eyes closed
Misunderstanding all you see
It's getting hard to be someone
But it all works out
It doesn't matter much to me

…

Always, no, sometimes think it's me
But you know I know when it's a dream
I think, er, no, I mean, er, yes
But it's all wrong
That is I think I disagree

Though this not my favorite John vocal if heard in isolation, his tone perfectly fits the mood of introspection.  There’s a sense of longing in there but it’s partially masked by an element of detachment, as if he’s so isolated that he can’t quite let himself go.  He imagines a place that doesn’t exist to replace the isolation, a place where he’s understood.

As I stated earlier, Ringo’s fills here are one of my three favorite Beatles songs.  Yeah, we talk about his fills a lot, but try for a second to imagine this song without them. It’s impossible.  Add in the backward cymbals parts and this is one of Ringo’s best performances.  George's guitar work is more subtle but fabulous, and George Martin's cello orchestration is phenomenal.

The Mellotron!  There are a lot of interesting technical aspects to this song that nerdier people than I could discuss better (backward cymbals), but the most interesting to me is the use of Mellotron, a new instrument that contained various tape loops, and if you hit a note it could mimic other instruments.  In this case Paul used it in the “flute” setting starting with that beautiful intro and continuing throughout the song. 

One other interesting technical aspect of the song is that the finished product is actually two very different takes spliced together.  John had decided that he liked the first half of one take but the second half of another, which had been recorded in a different key and at a different tempo! John was never concerned with the technical details and left it to George Martin to figure out how to give him the version he wanted.  Martin and Geoff Emerick finally figured out that if they sped up the first one and slowed down the second, they could get the pitch and tempo to match.  Then they had to figure out where to make the edit. If you listen closely around the one-minute mark, as John sings the beginning of the second chorus, you can hear the edit on the word “going” – “let me take you down ‘cause I’m going…” 

Mr. krista:  " “I like the song.  I think it’s great.  John kind of singing like Paul, a quality I like in this.  It’s so smartly done.  I like songs that paint an otherworldly picture.  Maybe it’s a bit on the nose.  The fills are killer.  The drums sound incredible, really heavy, and all those fills grab you and pull you into this world they created.  I like the complicated melody.  All the horns and all that kitchen sink stuff they put in there seem essential, embedded into the music instead of slapped on."

*John loved this song and talked about it a lot.  I’m copying a few of his explanation of the lyrics through the years, in case anyone is interested.

“In ‘Strawberry Fields’ I’m saying, ‘No, always think it’s me,’ and all that bit, and ‘Help!’ was trying to describe myself, how I felt, but I wasn’t sure how I felt.  So I’d be saying, ‘Sometimes, no always, think it’s real but…’ but I’m expressing it haltingly because I’m not sure what I’m feeling.  But now I was sure: ‘Yeah, that was what I’m feeling – it hurts, that’s what it’s about.’  So then I could express myself.”

“So the line says, ‘No one I think is in my tree, I mean it must be high or low.’  What I’m saying, in my insecure way, is ‘Nobody seems to understand where I’m coming from.  I seem to see things in a different way than most people.'”

“It’s a bit of messing, let’s get away to Strawberry Fields.  Certain parts of the song are fantastic to me, especially when you’re doing it, but then after that; you listen to it objectively.  ‘Living is easy…misunderstanding all you see.’  It still goes, doesn’t it?  The awareness apparently trying to be expressed.  Let’s say, in one way, I was always hip.  I was hip in kindergarten.  I was different from all the others.  I was different all my life.  The second verse goes, ‘No one I think is in my tree,’ well, I was too shy and too doubting.  ‘Nobody seems to be as hip as me,’ is what I was saying.  Therefore I must be crazy or a genius!  ‘I mean it must be high or low,’ the next line.  It was scary as a child, because there was nobody to relate to.  Neither my auntie nor my friends nor anybody could ever see what I did.  It was very, very scary, and about the only contact I had was reading about Oscar Wilde or a Dylan Thomas or a Vincent Van Gogh, all those books that my auntie had talked about their suffering because of their visions.  Because of what they saw, they were tortured by society for trying to express what they were.  I saw loneliness.”
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@rockaction

 
timschochet said:
One of my biggest flaws is that I try to find logic in everything. Your claim is that RS went into this list with no internal logic or rules whatsoever? I can’t really buy that. 
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Well, competing sets of internal logic that produce a flawed list because of a logical incoherence is a possibility. There's really no transparency in the nominations or selections, so I can't say that there's an internal logic besides eyeballs and clicks.

 
If we can get 50 or more participants (a stretch given the turnout to most recent year end album polls) and I get offered/accept the job I'm considering (which would mean working from home more often), I'll run an all times song poll here with countdown etc...

 
Steve Tasker said:
There are 2 specific songs out there that I've mentally marked as NV songs, but if you don't take em, I will.  Wonder if we're talking about the same ones.
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I'm really kind of counting on you going a different direction in the grouping with one song we're probably both talking about...

 
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