ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
I didn't see it that way. Sorry.
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Official "If You Think The Patriots Deserve An Asterisk" Thr (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
I thought Eckel looked good running the ball, relatively speaking.
Another point- if you conceed to running the ball into a pile of bodies and assumedly punting quite a bit, you are putting your defense right back on the field against an offense that isnt necessarilly returning the favor by rolling over. Isnt there a risk of your defensive studs getting hurt?
bostonfred
Footballguy
How do you get an undefeated team that just beat the undefeated Colts to go into the bye, having watched the Colts dump another game so you have a two game lead for HFA, and get them to spend two weeks working extra hard to prepare for the Bills? Maybe you throw four TDs to Moss in the first half so he can show up Owens, and give him a chance to defend a pass in the end zone at the end of the half like Owens did. Maybe you give Maroney his shot at a TD. Maybe you set a goal of scoring on every single offensive possession, and even go for it on fourth and ones to achieve that goal. I don't have a problem with them running up the score if that's what they're doing.
At the same time, they're maximizing the value of the time when they put the backups in. Gaffney's emergence as a solid #4 receiver is partly from his work in preseason/practice, and partly from his time in the fourth quarter. Eckel is getting a lot of experience and is emerging as a potential candidate if Maroney were to miss an extended period of time. He looks servicable. Chad Jackson got some playing time, and may prove himself, too. So the fourth quarter of these blowouts is kind of like an extended preseason for them, since there's no room for these guys in their primary rotation.
At the same time, they're maximizing the value of the time when they put the backups in. Gaffney's emergence as a solid #4 receiver is partly from his work in preseason/practice, and partly from his time in the fourth quarter. Eckel is getting a lot of experience and is emerging as a potential candidate if Maroney were to miss an extended period of time. He looks servicable. Chad Jackson got some playing time, and may prove himself, too. So the fourth quarter of these blowouts is kind of like an extended preseason for them, since there's no room for these guys in their primary rotation.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Sure, but at some point don't you pull those defensive studs? I think is especially true at LB where it's been mentioned that the Pats are really quite old. Maybe they don't have young LBers to groom, but if they did, what better experience for them to be on the field against a team still playing their starting offense? You won't see action like that in pre-season next year.
You do but you cant rest everybody- particularly D linemen who are rotated throughout the game. Are you going to leave in your rotation guys and wear them out? People overestimate the size of active NFL rosters, not every position has an exclusive backup. And then even if you do pull a bunch of guys how much experience are the remainder getting playing with guys they will hopefully never play with again? If you want to work those guys effectively you have to mix them in a few at a time.
kingmalaki
Footballguy
The Patriots look DAMN good but I don’t know about this “they are the best I’ve ever seen” garbage. I have never seen a team better than those 90’s, pre free-agency days, Cowgirls (I’m only 29), and I hate the Cowgirls. The 90’s 49ers that had Prime Time were damn good too.
The Pats will probably run the table and be the clear favorites to win the Superbowl but IMO, they have played two real teams this season and they struggled to beat one (the Colts). But the other teams they have been smacking (Jets, Bills, Bengals, Browns, Redskins, etc….).
The Pats will probably run the table and be the clear favorites to win the Superbowl but IMO, they have played two real teams this season and they struggled to beat one (the Colts). But the other teams they have been smacking (Jets, Bills, Bengals, Browns, Redskins, etc….).
There are 53 uniformed players. Maybe you dont' watch the Pats, but of those 53, everybody but the backup QB's see the field with regularity. They have historically been a team of role players. Every one of the 53 has a role. They fill it. When asked to step into a starting role, they will. What I'm saying here is yes there are starters, but the backups are in the game all the time too. Especially on D, they're not going to look a lot different after substitutions. But, to your point. The Bills didn't quit? Why should the Pats then?
FavreCo
Footballguy
If the Pats were playing in the 1970's, they would have lost many games. The 2nd time they ran the score up or went for it on 4th down up 30+ would have been the last. See picture (scroll to bottom) of Terry Bradshaw, insert Tom Brady. They would not have gone undefeated in the 70's.http://brownstng.com/blogs/ace/index.asp?B...e=&user_id=
8. "Turkey" Joe Jones (1970-71, 1973, 1975-8) -- Tall and talented, Jones was drafted out of Tennessee State higher than Jerry Sherk, who turned out to be an even better defensive lineman. As Sherk wrote: "He was about 6 foot 8 and he ran about a 4.5, 4.6 40 yard dash. At times he was a great pass rusher, at other times he didn’t live up to his great potential. Joe was a kind hearted person, though. You couldn’t help but really like him." His nickname stems from a Browns Thanksgiving tradition, a practical joke that survives to this day thanks to gullible new players. Jones is best known, though, for a particularly punishing piledriver of a sack of the Steelers’ Terry Bradshaw in 1976
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Blue-Kun
Footballguy
Seeing as how one of the Pats guys took Losman out with a late hit to the knees I was almost surprised nobody from Buffalo at least took a shot. Albert Haynesworth stomped on a guys head with his cleat and he's still playing in the NFL and will be paid a huge amount of money this summer. People dramatically overestimate how much trouble you'd get into for smashing one of these guys. If you're talented, you'll find a place somewhere. If you just were some 3rd stringer... well hopefully you made some deal in the meantime. Or hell, at least you've got a aside in the history books for finishing a team for the year.
FavreCo
Footballguy
I guess you have never seen an interview with some of these guys that played in the 70's. Bradshaw was about as high profile as there was and Jones flat out pile drove him into the ground on purpose. It was no accident.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
That's a fair point, but it seems to me like it would be smarter to work them in more often and earlier in these blowout games. But maybe that's not possible?
Darth Cheney
Footballguy
Why would the Patriots care about the feelings of the other team in this regards? As the self appointed, unoffical leader of the Patriots BandWagon Fans I want the Pats to insult other teams more by using their kicker as a QB, their 5th string RB as a WR and their third string DB's as their line.GO PATS!!!!!!!!!!Fodasme69 said:
I think some of you would be surprised to see how low you are in the development of moral reasoning ...
???
Sleeper 43
Footballguy
Dude don't act like this is how its always been, no matter the stage, the NFL historically hasn't been exempt from having good sportsmanship.Silly us right?
Sleeper 43
Footballguy
Laying down is running the ball? Laying down is kicking a fieldgoal when the game is out of reach on 4 down multiple times?Keep scratching and clawing for a legitimate excuse.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
IMO, yes -- IF that hasn't been part of the game plan from the get-go. I think most of the point is to keep the offense clicking to keep them sharp. What would be the difference for Brady and Moss if they are on the bench, or Brady is just in there handing the ball off to Eckel and Evans? Same difference to me. As for the FGs- who knows. As a fan, I even scratched my head. It could be for mulitple reasons that we'll never know:
1. Brady wants the TD record, the QB rating record, etc...
2. They set a goal as a team to get a TD on every possession.
3. BB is being a ##### and basically giving the finger to the league and the media.
4. The PK was having stage fright.
Really there are reasons to not kick the FGs, but we'll probably not know what they are.
Sleeper 43
Footballguy
I guess the Broncos were UN-professional tonight when they ran the clock out with rushing calls with ONLY a 14 point lead in the 4th.The fans paid to see every down and they let us all down. Shanny's a real trend-setter with this running the clock out mess!!
David Yudkin
Footballguy
I guess THIS Pats team was as good as the 99 Rams (22 points per game average margin of victory) and should have been accused of running up the score.
Iwannabeacowboybaby!
Footballguy
I don't know, I think the players are very competitive now. You look at the AFC, there's more teams than not who have a shot at some type of wild card spot and there's plenty in the NFC too. There's definately parity in the NFL, but just not with New England.The problem I have with New England and more so Belichick is that this game was the greatest game IMO before he was ever a head coach. Guys like Paul Brown, Vince Lombardi, Don Shula, Chuck Knoll, Tom Landry, Bill Walsch and Bill Parcells know how to coach and I don't remember these guys doing those types of things.So here's the deal. Either all of these guys are wrong for doing what they did, by not scoring because it's not the offenses job to stop the scoring or Bill Bellichick is wrong. It's one or the other because he's definately doing something that those coaches didn't do, which is when up by 30 or 40 points, going for it on 4th down and passing the ball with the sole purpose to score more points.As great of a coach as he is, I think he's partially full of crap when he says it's not the offenses job to stop scoring because at some point in the game, he is putting on the brakes. Tom Brady didn't play the entire game last night, he was pulled very early 4th quarter. So tell me Bill Bellichick, is that still not the offenses job not to stop scoring with Tom Brady out?So, at some point even in his mind he lets up. My problem and what others problem with him is that his time to start easing it up on his opponents is way farther down the line than what most people would do.Quite frankly, I'm so sick and tired of this argument and I can't believe that teams besides the Colts can't hang with them so that we don't have to talk about this every week. I don't know why we're surprised each week that he does it, he doesn't apologize for it and if given the chance to do it to Philly next week he'll do it.So my advice to any team that plays New England and your coach is talking to you and they say this team isn't going out there to win, they're going out there to embarass you..........believe what your coaches are saying. They aren't going out to win, they're going out there to embarass what you stand for, who you are as a professional and destroy your will.If they don't believe that, they will look like Buffalo did.My thoughtsassing the ball on 4th down when you're up by 4 TDs or more IS running up the score. Period. You run it there. Doesn't excuse the other team for not stopping them, but it is showing a lack of sportsmanship. What I think has happened in the NFL is very interesting. I think that back in the early days of the NFL through maybe the early 90s, the players on the field were very competitive and angry with each other. They were fighting for wins and jobs and money and took it to each other on the field as much as possible.
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Pat Patriot
Footballguy
Bill Belichick addressed "running up the score" today on WEEI. He stated that he does not believe in kicking gimme FG's when up by a large margin. He's consistent. He has shown that when in the red zone he will go for it on 4th down every time. He also showed last night from the 30 yard line on out, he will punt. In either case he is not kicking the FG.
There was a game quite a while back between the Bengals and Oilers when there was a lot of bad blood between the teams. Sam Wyche was the coach for Cincy. He had his team kick a 45 yard FG with 5 seconds left up by approx. 60-20. There is a school of thought where kicking the FG is a worse move. Belichick adheres to that school. People need to get over it, he's going for it on 4th down anytime he is too close to punt.
There was a game quite a while back between the Bengals and Oilers when there was a lot of bad blood between the teams. Sam Wyche was the coach for Cincy. He had his team kick a 45 yard FG with 5 seconds left up by approx. 60-20. There is a school of thought where kicking the FG is a worse move. Belichick adheres to that school. People need to get over it, he's going for it on 4th down anytime he is too close to punt.
Pat Patriot
Footballguy
So you are saying since the end of the 3rd quarter isnt early enough that it should be halftime?
Sleeper 43
Footballguy
David I've been watching ball a long time bud and its never been this blatant. Those teams... including the SB Colts were up early and handled themselves with class and if they did score late it was either on a run or at the very worst when they were put in a 3rd down position where they had to throw in the name of keeping possession unless they were in FG range.
Dont you find it ironic press conferences are asking why Bill is scoring the way he is unlike the coaches of the past where the issue was barley ever even brought up?
Its not just FBG's complaining , were not all haters who have nothing else better to do.
Maybe some of us just call it like we see it.
Sleeper 43
Footballguy
How can anyone defend a guy who says "we went for it on 4th because we thought it would give them a better chance to stop us from scoring points"
Seriously...............
Seriously...............
The Gator
Footballguy
The Duff Man
Footballguy
The best part of the NE/BUF game for me was when my wife walked in the room, saw the Patriot logo on the screen and said "Aren't those the cheaters?"
David Yudkin
Footballguy
I discussed this some in one of the other 100+ Pats threads. I don't disagree that the Pats are running up the score, but IMO it's not quite as bad as many people are making it out to be. My point then was to question at what point a team is supposed to flop on the ball and basically stop having the offense move the ball.Belichick has been consistent in playing his starters (for the most part) about halfway through the 4th quarter and then bringing in the B team. That's Belichick's policy, and the fact that suddenly this year they are up by 35 points in the third quarter gets people riled up, but that's what he's always done.
The other thing I pointed out was that for years critics suggested that the 3-time champion Pats were not that great because they barely won and if they were really good they would have blown away their opponents. Now that they are doing that, they still are getting beat up in the court of public opinion.
I don't really have a strong opinion on the running up the score argument, because IMO is there that much difference between beating a team 35-3 or 49-3? And last time I checked this was not Pop Warner football and the feelings of the opposition were not supposed to be taken into consideration. So let people play the sportsmanship card, but as far as I can see it's mostly people claiming sour grapes over a team that has just been too good up until now.
Brutis
Footballguy
Very
Very veryVery
C'mon guys, keep it going. See if we can get the ratio of quoted text to actual input down in the 4% range...Traders2001
Footballguy
Because this kind of domination has never been seen before , its the first time in history that a team is scoring at will like the Pats are ( And it s not because because teams of the past had class , it s just because they werent as dominant offensively as the Pats are ).
This offense is the best in history ( By a mile ) and even if they would play it easy they would still beat everyone by 21.
They showed class against the Super Bowl champions by taking it easy , they did nt want to humiliate the Champ
This is plain and simple the best team in history ( By far ) . That s the only way to explain this domination .
If you had any credibility (doubtful), it went out the window with this statement.
Traders2001
Footballguy
I had to throw a little sarcasm in there , i hate the Colts ( Mostly due to Peyton Manning ).
Iwannabeacowboybaby!
Footballguy
I'm saying that when Bellichick tells everyone it's not the offenses job to stop the offense he's feeding everyone a bunch of bull. If this were true, then he'd never pull Brady at any point.So, since he did and does.......at some point in the game even he decides it's enough. What I'm saying is that "his enough" is further down the line than what most other coaches would do.
You mention in this case halftime....if it's appropriate, yes. There has been plenty of teams up at halftime that basically shut it down in the 2nd half. Off the top of my head Dallas vs. the Rams and Cleveland vs. Ravens. I know if I looked into it I'd find probably a handful more and look into those games and look for how many 4th downs other teams went for it and passed when up by 30 points or so.
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bostonfred
Footballguy
Nobody's changing their mind on what he should have done in the past, but let's talk about going forward.
Here's my question: Assume he's been playing this way all season, because he has, and assuming otherwise is silly. The Patriots are playing your team in the AFC Championship Game, or the Superbowl, it's late in the third quarter, and your team is down 42-0, what would you want them to do? Pull the starters? Kick field goals on fourth and one from the 30? Or treat your team exactly the same as every team they've faced all season?
Here's my question: Assume he's been playing this way all season, because he has, and assuming otherwise is silly. The Patriots are playing your team in the AFC Championship Game, or the Superbowl, it's late in the third quarter, and your team is down 42-0, what would you want them to do? Pull the starters? Kick field goals on fourth and one from the 30? Or treat your team exactly the same as every team they've faced all season?
greenline
Footballguy
I'm saying that when Bellichick tells everyone it's not the offenses job to stop the offense he's feeding everyone a bunch of bull. If this were true, then he'd never pull Brady at any point.
So, since he did and does.......at some point in the game even he decides it's enough. What I'm saying is that "his enough" is further down the line than what most other coaches would do.
You mention in this case halftime....if it's appropriate, yes. There has been plenty of teams up at halftime that basically shut it down in the 2nd half. Off the top of my head Dallas vs. the Rams and Cleveland vs. Ravens. I know if I looked into it I'd find probably a handful more and look into those games and look for how many 4th downs other teams went for it and passed when up by 30 points or so.
Most other coaches have not won three superbowls. Most other coaches have not maintained the success BB has. Most other coaches teams fluctuate drastically one year to the next.
When NE pulls their starters, they still try to score.
Interestingly most other coaches dont have 3 SB rings as a head coach and an undefeated team that looks like it could be the best of all time. Thats my only point. YES the Pats are running up the score. But arent you guys arguing with success? If Bellihick feels it will help his team down the road to play 3 quarters as hard as they can, why should i care what Lovie Smith or Andy Reid would do? Let me lay it out like this- IF (and I stipulate this isnt a proven) but IF this style of play makes the Patriots better, does the sportsmanship argument trump that? I think 95% of football fans would say of course not. IF stomping the opposition has benefits that outweigh the risks, too damn bad for the stompee.So the question is does it help them enough to be worth it? And again- i'll take the best coach in the leagues opinion over the Shark Pool, sorry. The guy is indeed doing unprecidented things- but winning like this is certainly unprecidented.
Nigel
Footballguy
From today's Globe:
And nobody took a shot at Matt Cavanaugh's knees?!?! Impossible!
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
The inability for people to grasp this astonishes me.
An official thread about asterisks that has no asterisks? C'mon, Joe. The thread title should be *** OFFICIAL "Patriots Deserve an Asterisk" Thread ***.
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YOu've got a lot of hate there, but I just wanted to show you what Favre did two weeks ago, when they beat the Vikes 34-0. Did Favre "not stand for it", or run it up the gut every time? Nope. Up 20-0 in late int he third quarter, he passes for an 8 yard TD to Martin. Does he stop there? Can he sit w/ a 27-0 lead? Not a chance, he came back with a 17 yard strike to marting with about 6 minutes left.
So, Favre will stand for it, as will any QB in the league. We can't compare it to any other blowouts, because the Packers don't have any. Every professional should want to compete. Scoring is the object of the game. If you aint going to try and score, get out of the game.
At that point, he was done and Rodgers came in to run the offense. When/ About 4:000 left, or later than Brady has been in there. Yes, the Pats are doing it every week. I think that's what bothers you more than anything.
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/boxscore?gam...&week=REG10
TD Ruvell Martin, 8 yd pass from Brett Favre (Mason Crosby kick is good), 2:24. Drive: 10 plays, 69 yards in 4:59
4th Quarter
TD Ruvell Martin, 17 yd pass from Brett Favre (Mason Crosby kick is good), 5:38. Drive: 9 plays, 96 yards in 5:54
To sum it up. Contrary to your assertion, Favre has and does stand for this, whenever he gets the chance.
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Al;so, check the 1996 box scores, when the Pack was the SB Champs. You'll see Favre in late in a game against Denver, with a three TD lead, throwing two TD passes in the fourth.
GB 41-Den 6
Fourth Quarter
GB--K.Jackson 1 pass from B.Favre (C.Jacke kick), 0:44.
GB--A.Freeman 25 pass from B.Favre (C.Jacke kick), 7:39.
http://www.jt-sw.com/football/boxes/index..../1996-15-den-gb
One of them was even a one yarder. Clearly could have been run in. What is significant aobut this year is that ihere was talk of Marinos record, that's now Mannings, being broken. Favre finished w/ 49 IIRC. Just showing you, Favre stands for the blowout too.
Was there any let up? Nope, next week we see the same thing against Detroit, when the Pack wins 31-3.
http://www.jt-sw.com/football/boxes/index..../1996-16-gb-det
Up 24-3 with only 2:30 minutes left, Favre goes for a 27 yarder to Freeman.
Fourth Quarter
GB--A.Freeman 27 pass from B.Favre (C.Jacke kick), 12:28.
************************
Now, is this a foolish waste of time? Absolutely. I'm just showing you that your iguy did the same thing Brady does. Play hard when in the game. That's what one is supposed to do.
Me as well. Anything short of hammering it into the pile is running it up? I fully agree. Tacking on 3 at that point does nothing to the outcome of the game. Going for it on 4th down gives the D an opportunityh to stop you without points, while not changing the outcome of the game, or putting it at risk. Football is timed. Even if the game is 'over', you have to finish the time. Change the argument. If going for it on fourth down were the smart play, and would give you points more than the 3, why would anybody ever kick a field goal? The three are lesser, but they're easier at that point. Making the yards and getting the first is the play that gives the D the best opportunity to keep you pointless. No matter the point in the game.
DerangedGridironGeek
Footballguy
Run or pass what is the difference...you are going for it...the rest is splitting hairs.
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Insoxicated
twitch
Footballguy
the craziest thing about those situations when NE is deep in the other team's territory during 'run it up' time, is they almost approach 4th down as if it were 3rd down. They already understand theyll be going for it on 4th if they dont make it on 3rd. Its not a matter of will they or wont they. Its a matter of what play will it be. My point being, that if they approached the 4th down situation like alot of teams do, where theyd be kicking a FG or punting, theyd be more aggressive on 3rd down. In those late 'run it up' situations, theyll typically run on 2nd and 3rd down. Theyre putting in the work on the ground. But theyre just not going to run it all 3 or 4 downs. Its just not happening. Theyre keeping the chains moving and keeping their D off the field. And even funniner, and Madden pointed this out during the broadcast, is that as soon as the other team gets the ball back, its not as if theyre no longer trying to score. Buffalo still had its starters in passing the ball in a meaningless game, trying to score, risking injury to its own starters. As did Washington. As did Miami. And as has every other team NE has been running it up on. The opponent is taking the same risks with its own starters leaving them on the field during meaningless times in these games and still trying to score. The same times NE is getting hammered for risking injury to its own players. Washington was down 52-0 with its starting QB still in the game! Why? Because he's paid to play football.
So, just what are the other coaches saying aobut this alleged unsportsmanlike conduct?
http://www.projo.com/patriots/content/sp_f...12.450598a.html
“No, I have no problems with that. It’s our job to stop them,” Buffalo coach **** Jauron said. “It’s not their job to do what you or we might want them to do. They are just playing football.”
Washington coach Joe Gibbs said pretty much the same thing after the Patriots had embarrassed the Redskins.
“No, I have no problem with anything that they did,” Gibbs said. “Nothing; no problems for me.”
“This is football, it’s a rough game,” Buffalo quarterback JP Losman said. “It’s a tough game, and you know what, you’re going to have to deal with it. Sometimes you don’t just get hit and helped back up. Sometimes they’re going to kick you when you’re down. We made the mistakes that put ourselves in that situation, and this is a team where you can’t do that, so as far as going for it on fourth down, that’s part of the game.”
Even Buffalo general manager Marv Levy said there is nothing wrong with what the Patriots are doing.
“[The Patriots] played magnificently,” Levy said. “They are as good of a team as I have seen in quite some time. I have no gripe for players who are out there and want to excel and want to do things, and want to look good, and play with pride. It’s up to us to stop them and not say, ‘Don’t throw the ball, don’t do this.’ No gripes at all on that.”
************
Is anybody claiming it's unsportsmanlike, or that they're breaking some unwritten rule? I guess it's a different mindset. I believe what happens to me happens because of my actions. If I don't like some result, I say how can I effect change. Others seem to have a need to blame outcomes on others. Maybe thats where the two sides of the argument derive from.
Until the defense walks off the field and you just wantonly score, you are not running up the score, merely playing the game as it was meant to be played.
http://www.projo.com/patriots/content/sp_f...12.450598a.html
“No, I have no problems with that. It’s our job to stop them,” Buffalo coach **** Jauron said. “It’s not their job to do what you or we might want them to do. They are just playing football.”
Washington coach Joe Gibbs said pretty much the same thing after the Patriots had embarrassed the Redskins.
“No, I have no problem with anything that they did,” Gibbs said. “Nothing; no problems for me.”
“This is football, it’s a rough game,” Buffalo quarterback JP Losman said. “It’s a tough game, and you know what, you’re going to have to deal with it. Sometimes you don’t just get hit and helped back up. Sometimes they’re going to kick you when you’re down. We made the mistakes that put ourselves in that situation, and this is a team where you can’t do that, so as far as going for it on fourth down, that’s part of the game.”
Even Buffalo general manager Marv Levy said there is nothing wrong with what the Patriots are doing.
“[The Patriots] played magnificently,” Levy said. “They are as good of a team as I have seen in quite some time. I have no gripe for players who are out there and want to excel and want to do things, and want to look good, and play with pride. It’s up to us to stop them and not say, ‘Don’t throw the ball, don’t do this.’ No gripes at all on that.”
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Is anybody claiming it's unsportsmanlike, or that they're breaking some unwritten rule? I guess it's a different mindset. I believe what happens to me happens because of my actions. If I don't like some result, I say how can I effect change. Others seem to have a need to blame outcomes on others. Maybe thats where the two sides of the argument derive from.
Until the defense walks off the field and you just wantonly score, you are not running up the score, merely playing the game as it was meant to be played.
