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The Democrats need to wake up! Update: And near the last second, THEY HAVE (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
Todem
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
Yes Obama dod at the start to spend out of a recession. Then lower towards the end. Now during expansion...blowing it up even worse than before is not a good thing.
timschochet
Footballguy
I think you’re missing the point here, by comparing Bernie to Hillary. Instead, compare him to Obama: Obama’s coalition included white union workers and suburban women. In 2016, these two groups abandoned Hillary in large numbers in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Trump won. In order for the Democrats to win this time we need them back. And they won’t come back for Bernie.
As far as young people go: my daughter and all Her friends will vote for Bernie, assuming they show up to vote at all. To which I say, so what? If we win California by another 2 million votes, how does that help us?
Presumably people in other states have daughters as well.
I voted for Hillary in the 2016 primary because I was mistaken about electablity issues as well. Bernie does not need white union workers or suburban women so bad to push half baked Republican policy to woo them over. Significantly more people did not vote at all compared to the vote totals that either Trump or Clinton received. Know a good way to keep them not voting? Promise to do nothing, the moderate candidate anthem.
I voted for Hillary in the 2016 primary because I was mistaken about electablity issues as well. Bernie does not need white union workers or suburban women so bad to push half baked Republican policy to woo them over. Significantly more people did not vote at all compared to the vote totals that either Trump or Clinton received. Know a good way to keep them not voting? Promise to do nothing, the moderate candidate anthem.
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Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Bernie has some advantages over Obama:
1. Bernie has a browner population with less Boomers
2. Bernie gets to run up against Trump -- an unpopular president even in swing states. Many people are eager to vote him out regardless of who faces him.
Bernie isn't my personal favorite but he is the best candidate to beat Trump and I think he'll be our next president.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
For worse. America won't be voting in Socialism regardless of all the lipstick you put on it. Socialism is still a pig.
The Commish
Footballguy
Wait....is he a socialist or a communist? You need to pick a lane here...zig zagging back and forth lends itself to some obvious credibility issues.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
While I agree that America won't vote for a self-described socialist, Bernie is 100% correct that we already have socialism and corporate America is the biggest piglet sucking on the teat of America.
You are right though: I cannot see Bernie beating Trump.
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BladeRunner
Footballguy
Socialism is the stepping stone to communism.
They're almost interchangeable so it doesn't really matter if we talk about socialism or communism. No need to pick a lane since they both occupy the same lane. That would be the far left lane.
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
No way. In a society where the politicians control the means of production we can absolutely trust those politicians to always act in the best interest of the people.
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
It's worse. Much worse. Dems should have kicked Bernie out of the party. I think any of the current candidates, but him, beats Trump.
I'm not so sure about that. I'm looking around for a reliable, electable non-Socialist candidate to get behind, and I'm not sure there is one. Biden? Bloomberg? Pete? They all have major flaws.
Never thought I'd find myself longing for a John Kerry type.
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
mcintyre1
Footballguy
I have zero concerns about Bernie in the general. He's going to crush Trump. He's consistently beat him in head to head polling for about 5 years now, and that's also with 5 years worth of bleating about all the scary "socialism" from both the centrist Dems and Republicans. I just hope you all appreciate all of the nice things the younger generations are going to fight for on your behalf.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Todem
Footballguy
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
This will end up being a bigger misfire than your 'Ameer Abdullah looks like the next Barry Sanders' take.
rockaction
Footballguy
The Democrats have big policy wants. It's really about the legislature and executive for them. Judges are a Republican issue because of what is in their purview.
Mile High
Footballguy
Which doesn't mean #### if a Republican Senate doesn't even vote on anything and a Republican President just uses EOs to do what he wants. Once the courts back them up then what? Bernie Sanders isn't going to turn America communist in 4 years. 4 more years of a Republican president and Senate will hurt the Democratic cause more then Sanders ever would.
rockaction
Footballguy
Oh, I was assuming that you worried more about electable candidates than the judges they'd appoint. I totally agree with you that they'd need a D Pres and a D Congress to get what they want done. But my point was simply: they've already achieved what they want to in the courts if we're being fair in our assessment of judicial philosophy. Now it's time to make legislative hay, one would figure.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
Surely you know that a big reason of why they abandoned Hillary in Wisconsin and Michigan is that Bernie won those states primaries and they felt he should have gotten the nomination.
Also, I'd like to understand your continued insistence that Bernie is not attracting new voters. The biggest knock on him in 2016 was that he made no inroads with minorities and that was an absolutely fair critique. This time around he leads all dem candidates with non-white voters.
I don't want Sanders to be the nominee because I don't agree with much of what he stands for. That being said, if the goal is to beat Trump-and it is-I think Bernie absolutely can do it. And he can do it precisely by winning those states you mentioned above.
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
I've heard "pant suit" jokes for the last 25 years or so, some of them quite funny, I could deal with this.
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The Commish
Footballguy
They aren't interchangeable....as I said before....you take "the view" up far enough and everything looks similar. That, however, is a dishonest approach IMO. Though it is absolutely a popular approach.
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Shula-holic
Footballguy
In fairness, the folks he's ran against have been afraid of alienating his voters. They haven't laid a glove on him, much less tore into him the way the Republican attack machine will. He may survive it, I'm not writing Bernie off by any means against Trump. But if he wins, he's going to win while essentially having to step onto the debate stage wearing a hammer and sickle jacket while singing the Soviet national anthem. The oppo stuff is out there and there will be no hesitation to use it the way there has been up to this point come the general.
Also, I don't get all the comments Bernie backers give about fighting on your behalf. I get I'm not the target market because I don't want nor need this greater good all one big pot thing he preaches. But even to folks on the left or Democrats who aren't Bernie supporters now, what does that earn you? It's a pretty condescending tone to take with someone you need for your coalition. It's basically saying since they don't support you that you know what's better for people than they do themselves.
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mcintyre1
Footballguy
In fact, the most dire H2H polling (from Emerson College) shows that Sanders is the only Democratic candidate who beats Trump.
Until last night Bloomberg was the only one favored over Trump head to head in the betting markets.
mcintyre1
Footballguy
This is just unconscionably wrong. How many times have they been asked on a debate stage about whether a "socialist" can win, or is the right person to be leading the party? Bloomberg finally borrowed from the MSNBC talking head / Trump playbook (what a weird combination, right?) and dropped the "c" word last night. What is this mythical oppo research going to be that's so much worse than what the media has been writing about him since 2015? His "honeymoon" to the USSR? His words 30 years ago about Castro or the Sandinistas? The sex story thing he wrote 40 years ago?
Bernie has been vetted extensively for years. I highly doubt there's some secret knockout blow that Trump is holding in reserve. If it existed, you could be damn sure that the Centrist wing of the Democratic party would have already used it.
As for your other paragraph, it won't be a popular opinion I'm sure, but the highlighted is right for me. I do think the younger generations fighting for Medicare For All, living wages, worker rights, addressing climate change, and getting money out of politics know what's better for you. We've got ample evidence that all of these are fundamental problems with our society, and they are FAR from new problems.
Nearly every other country has figured out healthcare. Study after study after study from leading economists show that decreases in income inequality in capitalist systems lead to greater economic growth and opportunity for everyone. Our own history is marked by the literal lives that were expended in securing better working conditions for everyone against the wishes of the those protecting the existing system. Damn near every climate scientist across the entire world has been yelling at anyone who will listen that we have to do something now or we're screwed down the road.
Despite all of this, the older generations of this country have shown zero interest or ability in solving these problems. Forgive me if I'm a bit sick of playing nice on these issues for the sake of appeasing hurt feelings. They're too important, and at this point we're going to try to do something about it whether people like you will ever agree or not.
caustic
Footballguy
FWIW, here was an interaction between Bloomberg's campaign manager and a former Hillary adviser wrt oppo research on Bernie:
https://twitter.com/peterdaou/status/1229796565465911296
Thunderlips
Footballguy
I do think that. I have much more respect for the younger Trump voters than the older ones. The olders ones have had 20-30-40 years to get it right; yet they're constantly willing to lay their perceived faults in the country at the feet of the youth.
caustic
Footballguy
National polls showed Hillary winning the popular vote by 2-4 points and she won by 2.1 points. There were some issues in certain swing states where pollsters underrepresented white people without a college degree, one of Trump's best demographics--since then, many pollsters have started re-weighting results by educational attainment to fix that problem.
I think our takeaway from 2016 should have been "30% probability does not mean an event is impossible," not "polling data is garbage."
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hagmania
Footballguy
Find someone for 2024, get them as close to center as you can because once Trump is done independents will choose whoever is the closest to the center. 2020 is lost already. Get off all the disastrous ideas like illegal immigration and sanctuary cities, free everything, reparations, etc. Simply trying to grab votes with impossible and crazy ideas doesn't work.
Shula-holic
Footballguy
If you think Mike Bloomberg and the powder puff "hits" the Democratic candidates have tried on him is equivalent to what he will face I don't think there's anything I can say. Republican political history, and I assume you have that knowledge, tends to say otherwise. I've always thought Bernie's win equity was non-zero. Most years I wouldn't say that, but Trump and Bernie are both unique figures. I think Trump is the favorite and it's going to be a rough, rough ride along the way. Much rougher than what we've seen so far. Regardless of who wins the Trump/Bernie finals, the next 4 1/2 years are gonna be some really nasty times. To the point it's pretty laughable people talk about how bad the tone has been the past 3+ years. It's not getting any better regardless of who wins, but that's off topic and irrelevant.
I'll give you credit for admitting you feel you know what's better for everyone else than they do. We all probably feel that way sometimes, but that mindset fits Bernie's message because you are trusting the state to know what's best for you. I'm not one who worries about my feelings getting hurt so those statements are ok by me. The former accountant in me wonders what Bernie's tax rates would be, he's been running for years and we haven't gotten those so it's pretty hard for me to take that mindset seriously from someone with no true plan, just a broad set of statements.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Sometimes what seems like a devastating hit turns out not to matter a whole lot to the electorate. A candidate with a loyal and committed base can potentially withstand negatives that seem unthinkable. There were probably a dozen revelations in 2016 that seemed like they would obviously kill the Trump campaign based on conventional political wisdom.
My impression is that Sanders has some of the same untouchability that Trump has. If he gets the nomination I guess we'll find out.
Shula-holic
Footballguy
On this I think you're 100% right. The loyal base on either side is not going to be swayed by any kind of attack. I think Sanders is a huge threat to Trump from that loyal following standpoint. I do think his being the opponent opens doors back up for Trump with suburban women, and especially in a state like PA that's basically two large cities, huge swaths of rural areas, and pockets of union voters who he won in 2016 but needs to find a way again. Just as Trump shook up the map some, it's foolish to not think Bernie has that potential.
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Mile High
Footballguy
BladeRunner
Footballguy
No way you can trust Bernie to stop at Socialism once he gets in. History proves time and time again that socialism is just a thinly veiled form of communism. They're cousins. One leads to the other.
The Commish
Footballguy
Genuine Question....on your estimation, what % of the policies ever proposed in the history of our country were achieved by a President alone exactly as he promised in his campaign? I appreciate the fear mongering and I know it's the goto for "the sides" but it's pretty silly. That we are talking about four more years of public education for those who want it as "socialism" is laughable as well. Populist? Sure....socialism? Not so much. Same with healthcare. An actual socialist platform will NEVER be accepted by the people of this country.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
February 20, 2020 - Swing State (Wis., Mich and Penn) Poll from Quinnipiac University
Spoiler: Trump leads in head to head matchups against the top Democratic candidates in Wisconsin, but loses or trails within the margin of error in Pennsylvania matchups, and is locked in close races in Michigan. This is the first swing state poll of the 2020 presidential election cycle from the Quinnipiac University Poll that includes separate polls conducted simultaneously in key swing states. The poll was conducted from February 12th - 18th, prior to the February 19th Democratic primary debate.
Spoiler: Trump leads in head to head matchups against the top Democratic candidates in Wisconsin, but loses or trails within the margin of error in Pennsylvania matchups, and is locked in close races in Michigan. This is the first swing state poll of the 2020 presidential election cycle from the Quinnipiac University Poll that includes separate polls conducted simultaneously in key swing states. The poll was conducted from February 12th - 18th, prior to the February 19th Democratic primary debate.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
Come on...a giant wall that the people whom it affects most directly are going to gladly pay for....locking up your political rival the minute you have the power...., buying Greenland, Space Force?...…. Seems like there's been a few "crazy" ideas that got results.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I agree with you, but typically a candidate cant win elections by promising that his ideas will be rejected.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
Maybe....maybe not. I KNOW what I'm getting from Trump. The possibility of being able to reign Bernie in once he gets in is much more palatable.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I think its probably a mistake for Sanders to have proudly adopted the "Democratic Socialist" label. Too many people focus on semantics and are unable to scratch even a millimeter beneath the surface. Constant hammering of the word "socialism" will play big with the uneducated white demographic that Trump has ridden the past 4 years.
