2024 Summer of Soccer - Euro's, Copa America, Olympics, WCQing (4 Viewers)

[El Floppo]

****ing weah. Good lord.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I'm speaking more to our performance in the 1994 World Cup and how we were supposedly an up and coming soccer nation.

you originally mentioned development, which is what I was referring to. Development is significantly different than performance in a short form tournament.

That US team finished 3rd in its group and lost in the first knock out round game (to Brazil).

They put up an amazing performance considering the vast majority of the team was not even real pros at the time. But to reiterate, none of that had to do with developing players. That was lightning in a bottle that happens from time to time in short form tournaments like the World Cup or NCAA basketball. But it is rarely a leading indicator.

I guess but I measure success largely based on results. It seemed like we were making progress back then. 2002 felt good and and I thought we were on the verge of a breakthrough but nope. 20 years later, same ol bs.

oh, that is very very fair.

We have continually stated results have not improved, even though the base quality of the average national team player has improved (quite a bit).

 

[NewlyRetired]

Up to some lucky similarly timed genetics to get a genuine golden generation together... Or superstar level guy like Mbappe or god forbid Messi.

Freddy Adu!!!!!!!

He is still watching

=================

@FreddyAdu

@FreddyAdu

I’m also not sure why we needed a third center back. It wasn’t like Panama getting clear looks at goal. They just kept possession and weren’t exactly dangerous in the final third. Musah would have made a big difference today in my opinion.

 

[El Floppo]

Up to some lucky similarly timed genetics to get a genuine golden generation together... Or superstar level guy like Mbappe or god forbid Messi.

Freddy Adu!!!!!!!

Lol. He's an easy punchline

But the single best performance I've ever seen from a US player was Freddy vs Brazil in the u20 WC, playing as 17yo iirc. He tore them up singlehandedly.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I've been bashing Richards, because... Damn.

But he's defended well at least. CCV otoh... Basta cosi. No mas.

That was CCV's worst performance for the Nats. He was a step slow on almost every single play.

 

[El Floppo]

Up to some lucky similarly timed genetics to get a genuine golden generation together... Or superstar level guy like Mbappe or god forbid Messi.

Freddy Adu!!!!!!!

He is still watching

=================

@FreddyAdu

@FreddyAdu

I’m also not sure why we needed a third center back. It wasn’t like Panama getting clear looks at goal. They just kept possession and weren’t exactly dangerous in the final third. Musah would have made a big difference today in my opinion.

This game was built for Musah. Both defensively, positionally, and for his ability to gobble upfield with the ball and break lines off the dribble.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Up to some lucky similarly timed genetics to get a genuine golden generation together... Or superstar level guy like Mbappe or god forbid Messi.

Freddy Adu!!!!!!!

Lol. He's an easy punchline

But the single best performance I've ever seen from a US player was Freddy vs Brazil in the u20 WC, playing as 17yo iirc. He tore them up singlehandedly.

I sometimes watch his highlights and wonder how the hell it went so wrong for the kid. I mean it is one thing to not be a top national team player but for him to have ended up in the Finnish 4th division in his prime (or where ever the **** that was) was unimaginable when he was a teenager.

 

[The Z Machine]

So there is a non zero chance that Canada, Mexico and the US all crash out in the group.

That is a horrible look for the 3 hosts of the WC

MEX is in a down cycle. USA has a **** coach that sucks at in-game adjustments. CAN doesn't have enough talent to play against teams with talent.

Agreed, it's a baaaaaad look.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

worst part of crashing out early here is the utter lack of useful games for the next two years. Even if we get a new coach, no one will have any idea whether the team is better or not come WC2026.

=======

I should also acknowledge that a good run in Copa is ultimately meaningless two years from now, even if it would feel good today. The US made a run to the semi's in Copa 2016. Remember how well the US did in WC 2018? Right, no one else does either.

So, it's kind of crazy to think about, but Weah's split second stupid decision to put his hands to the Panamanian's head could literally affect the entire US soccer program for the next few years. That one event.

If the US crashes out of the group stage, GGG gets fired, the US loses chances to get meaningful matches in the next 2 years, all of this could affect what happens in our home turf World Cup that is 2 short years away and potentially longer (i.e. players that may or may not decide to join the USMNT, poor showing, etc).

It's really kind of insane how big of an impact that one act could have on SO many.

it is scary when you lay it out like that but I guess there is always a domino that has to fall first.

The one thing we don't know (and it one of the great things about following any sport) is that it is impossible to know how any of this will turn out in WC2026.

Bingo. These are great points.

We nitpick at all these little things and how they will matter for the WC but ultimately the WC margins are just as tight, and random inches will change things there just as much, and things we thought were a big deal now will turn out meaningless.

Look at Morocco in the last World Cup. They fired their coach 3 months before the start of the WC after getting spanked 3-0 by us of all teams, and then went on to make it to the semi-finals of the World Cup that year.

 

[QuizGuy66]

Group C....
Part 1....
Thanks GGG

Uruguay advance with:
A win or tie
OR
A Panama loss or tie
OR
A loss by less than 4
OR
A loss by 4 or more, a Panama win and the combined margin of the two results is less than 7
OR
A loss by 4 or more, a Panama win and the combined margin equals exactly 7 and Panama doesn't outscore Uruguay by 6 or more.


So much for the easy one.

USA advance with.......
A win or tie AND a Panama loss or tie
OR
A win by 4 or more goals
OR
A win by less than 4 and a Panama win and Panama's margin of victory is not 2+ more than the USA's win margin
OR
A win by less than 4 and a Panama win and Panama's margin is exactly 2 more than the USA's win margin and the USA outscores Panama
OR
A loss by exactly 1 and a Panama loss by less than 7
OR
A loss by exactly 2 and a Panama loss by less than 6
OR
A loss by exactly 3 and a Panama loss by 2, 3, or 4
OR
A loss by exactly 4 and a Panama loss by 3
OR
A loss by exactly 1, a Panama loss by exactly 7, and Bolivia doesn't outscore the USA by 4+
OR
A loss by exactly 2, a Panama loss by exactly 6, and Bolivia doesn't outscore the USA by 4+
OR
A loss by exactly 3, a Panama loss by exactly 5, and Bolivia doesn't outscore the USA by 4+
OR
A loss by exactly 4, a Panama loss by exactly 4, and Bolivia doesn't outscore the USA by 4+
OR
A loss by exactly 5, a Panama loss by exactly 3, and Bolivia doesn't outscore the USA by 3+
OR
A loss by the exact score of 5-0 and Bolivia beats Panama by the exact score of 3-0.

So ends part 1.
I'll add the scenarios for the other two to this post later.

-QG

 

[El Floppo]

So there is a non zero chance that Canada, Mexico and the US all crash out in the group.

That is a horrible look for the 3 hosts of the WC

MEX is in a down cycle. USA has a **** coach that sucks at in-game adjustments. CAN doesn't have enough talent to play against teams with talent.

Agreed, it's a baaaaaad look.

Yeah.

Mex and US seem in similar boats- kind of lacking identity, despite some decent players and ok to good depth behind them

CAN has an identity, but genuinely lack depth of quality after their extremely high end top tier.

 

[SpurrierisisGod]

So much emphasis recently in the US has been to play "pretty", dominate possession, play out of the back etc etc that weve lost sight of the end game... just freaking win. Which is what the '94 team had.

We want to be Germany or Brazil or England but we can't. We are still 80 years behind.

I've seen on a lower level for so long now that it's hard to evan emote, but in the US there isn't some huge pool of licensed coaches to draw from when one doesn't work out. Basketball or football or baseball doesn't require coaches to be licensed like soccer does. Parents get coaches run off at every level cuz little Johnny should get more play time. Hell, I flat out refused to get my D license because 1. I don't have $2k and 3 full weekends to give up and 2. Parents suck. It's no wonder our talent levels out at a certain point.

The worst part is that I've seen 20 great training coaches for every 1 decent game coach. Most couldn't coach their way out of a wet paper bag... can't make in game decisions, forcing players to play a "style" or system. GGG seems to fit that description.

The US just isn't set up to have some kind of complimentary system... let GGG train the boys, but hire a tactical coach to run the system and games. It's all about money and control

 

[SpurrierisisGod]

Oh and from reading the statements and comments from players...

I'm almost certain their players had to be throwing around the N word. Makes sense looking back at weahs reaction. And that is what a true tactical coach would do in a tournament - especially from a team that wouldn't fully understand how bad that word may be. "Hey call them N's and one or 2 will get tossed. Then we have the advantage".

 

[QuizGuy66]

I'm sorry gotta go to sleep so Part 2 scenarios tomorrow :(
-QG

 

[encaitar]

Tonight is really on Weah and his stupidity, but I really have been thinking about that second goal. It highlighted the two big deficiencies we have as a team... GK and CB. I like our team and even our depth at every other position(#9 is still iffy, but I really think the lack of service there due to our system hurts anyone in that position).

From 1994 through 2017 our national team played with a GK that was without question a top 20 GK in the world. Hell, most of those team had 2 GKs that would fall into that category. While I don't blame Horvath for the 2nd goal, I have zero doubt that Keller, Friedel, or Howard would've kept that out of the goal.... Hell, I'm 99% sure that Guzan would've kept it out(likely Turner as well if he weren't hurt). Essentially what I'm saying is that our GK is a liability. It's not something we're used to as a US team, but it's showing and lately it's been showing in big moments.

I also think that this year's CB pairing is the worst we've ever fielded as well. For as much as he was incredible 2 years ago and played well during the last WC... Tim Ream is done. He's lost too many steps. His pace is a huge liability right now and it's obviously not going to improve. The only reason he's still starting is because we literally have 0 decent options. Miles, CCV, Zimmerman etc.... all not good enough. RIchards, EPB, Trusty, Che, etc.... all not mature enough. I think Richards has a chance to be good, but his youth shows way too often. He makes a lot of mistakes and it is tough for our team to deal with, especially with his partner being slow of foot. I think any decent CB grouping would've had that near post cross covered on the goal, but we didn't and it's a problem that is going to continue hurting us going forward.

 

[BlackCrowes]

don't understand why no Musah. makes no sense.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Current odds to advance from group C (Uruguay thru, Bolivia effectively eliminated)...

Panama 60%-40% USA

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

But as we have continually pointed out in the US thread, that even with this abundance of talent available (in comparison to past generations), the results on the field really are not that different.

I find the current BERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! chatter funny (given Weah punched a guy in the middle of the field off the ball), but I have a lot of time for the argument that earlier iterations of the US team would have gutted it out and gotten a draw last night. Dempsey knows things, and his disappointment was plain.

The Italy 1-1 USA game in 2006, for example -- when the US was down to 9 vs 10 against a team that WON every other game in that tournament. Or playing thru a team of Guatemalans chopping down US players over and over, to win 2-0 in qualifying for 1998. The cheap shots and verbals today aren't even as bad since VAR catches everything. Very disappointing. Not just Weah, but that they didn't hold on.

ETA: I agree with encaitar that Turner saves that shot. His shot stopping and reflex saves are top notch.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Just tinkering, back of napkin stuff. Any feelings if this would have worked better after half time?

a 4-4-1

Both 4's are flat.

Scally........Richards......Ream........Lund

Aaronson......Musah......Weston.......Jedi

................................Balo (and when tired, replaced with Sargent)


Scally, Lund and Weston are told to stay at home at all costs. Aaronson and Jedi to run balls off.

Since normal passing patterns are limited in this formation with 10 men, that plays into Musah's hands (feet) where he is given free reign to dribble to break the lines and start any possible counters.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Oh and from reading the statements and comments from players...

I'm almost certain their players had to be throwing around the N word. Makes sense looking back at weahs reaction. And that is what a true tactical coach would do in a tournament - especially from a team that wouldn't fully understand how bad that word may be. "Hey call them N's and one or 2 will get tossed. Then we have the advantage".

I feel that if this were the case the players would be all over social media barking about it. Not to minimize any potential racist incidents but the one main takeaway from the past couple of years for me is these players are soft. I think Bruce Arena was right - the 2002 team beats this group every day.

 

[guru_007]

You guys honestly think it's the coach and not the players? Or the culture?

does the US even have a top... 100... player in the world?

Yes. I think a lot of the angst shown from the fans and in this thread is this is (IMHO) the most talented USMNT ever.
I know this is apropos of nothing, but one of the better ways of evaluating talent is the transfer value of the player on the open market.
On the US right now
Pulisic €34.0m
Weah €13.7m
Balugan €29.4m
Adams €17.6m
Reyna €20.7m
McKennie €24.8m
Robinson €20.7m
Those are the best starters (imo) and that's over €160m
There are more than three bench players that are valued over €10m each on the U.S. squad

The entire Bolivia side is probably aggregate under €15m

It's difficult to gauge a team the sum of it's parts, but it is on the coach to get a bit more out of the players.
The reason I don't care for international soccer is it's very tough for a coach to get the most out of his players when they train a few weeks out of the year and oftentimes the star players are rested in practice because they are coming off a long club schedule. This is why most of the better coaches out there avoid national team duty because they are always thrown under the bus. If you think this is bad, read what the fans say about Southgate at the Euro's right now and that teams in on track to get to at least the semi finals of the whole damn tournament. It's never good enough.

That said, this is a very disappointing copa for the US. They should have thrashed Bolivia. Early red card is a killer against an inferior opponent. But it's not over yet. They can beat Uruguay, especially if there is some rotation there. But it's going to be tough sledding.

 

[TennesseeJed]

read what the fans say about Southgate at the Euro's right now

To be fair, Southgate is not a very good manager - the criticism he receives for his dull style, and lack of being able to beat "good" teams is justified.

I would be disappointed if the US sacked Berhalter, and hired Southgate...

 

[guru_007]

read what the fans say about Southgate at the Euro's right now

To be fair, Southgate is not a very good manager - the criticism he receives for his dull style, and lack of being able to beat "good" teams is justified.

I would be disappointed if the US sacked Berhalter, and hired Southgate...

Every national team manager is heavily criticized. England made it to the last Euro finals and lost in a pk shootout. I mean, you can't get much closer than that to winning a major title. Nagelsman is one of the best managers in the world (again, imho) and unless Germany wins this year's Euro (going to be very tough with that draw) and/or the next WC, he'll be looking for a new job.
Nothing is ever good enough for national fans.

 

[SwampDawg]

Turner didn't play that goal well. That was at least part on him. An elite goalie stops that shot.

I dunno. Ball bouncing around, Megs Richards and nips the post. Solid shot and would've taken a hell of a save. Not on Turner there.

Nope. It took him too long to read that spot was the only place it could go. He was slow getting to the side and alow getting down.

I think it's more that the CONMEBOL refs aren't calling much in this tournament and letting a lot go.

This is Ivan Barton. He's a CONCACAF guy. Last year he reffed the US/Mexico semifinal game and he let that game become almost a bloodbath if you remember. This is his MO. He's pretty lax on calling fouls, or at least has been in the US games he's reffed. Teams like Mexico and now Panama obviously take advantage of that.

So what happened we had a French ref I believe the first game because CONMEBOL was doing some exchange with them during Euro's which made sense. Now they bring in a CONCACAF guy? No change in standard there

 

[El Floppo]

Just tinkering, back of napkin stuff. Any feelings if this would have worked better after half time?

a 4-4-1

Both 4's are flat.

Scally........Richards......Ream........Lund

Aaronson......Musah......Weston.......Jedi

................................Balo (and when tired, replaced with Sargent)


Scally, Lund and Weston are told to stay at home at all costs. Aaronson and Jedi to run balls off.

Since normal passing patterns are limited in this formation with 10 men, that plays into Musah's hands (feet) where he is given free reign to dribble to break the lines and start any possible counters.

I think just swapping Gio out for Musah and keeping a 4-4-1 would've been fine. Let it roll and then start making adjustments subs as needed.

But ultimately the 5-3-1 wasn't terrible and did minimize them getting wide and pumping it into the box. That goal... Yeesh. Not a fault of the formation on that one.

 

[El Floppo]

Turner didn't play that goal well. That was at least part on him. An elite goalie stops that shot.

I dunno. Ball bouncing around, Megs Richards and nips the post. Solid shot and would've taken a hell of a save. Not on Turner there.

Nope. It took him too long to read that spot was the only place it could go. He was slow getting to the side and alow getting down.

I think it's more that the CONMEBOL refs aren't calling much in this tournament and letting a lot go.

This is Ivan Barton. He's a CONCACAF guy. Last year he reffed the US/Mexico semifinal game and he let that game become almost a bloodbath if you remember. This is his MO. He's pretty lax on calling fouls, or at least has been in the US games he's reffed. Teams like Mexico and now Panama obviously take advantage of that.

So what happened we had a French ref I believe the first game because CONMEBOL was doing some exchange with them during Euro's which made sense. Now they bring in a CONCACAF guy? No change in standard there

It's a dead horse, but outside of turner getting wiped out- which was an obvious yellow- I don't think the ref missed much and ultimately got all the big calls right.

Or should we have hoped for the guy who did the Turkey Chech game, since euro refs are so wonderful?

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

read what the fans say about Southgate at the Euro's right now

To be fair, Southgate is not a very good manager - the criticism he receives for his dull style, and lack of being able to beat "good" teams is justified.

I would be disappointed if the US sacked Berhalter, and hired Southgate...

England is the USA of UEFA. Plenty of talent, poor leadership at the coaching level, poor showings in tournaments despite the talent, an occasional good performance in the EUROs/Gold Cup. My Lord England is talented. Foden won EPL's man of the year and I've seen posts suggesting he go to the bench. What? Talk about a fanbase that suffers. it's us x100.

The US Soccer Federation has to take some of the heat here. We have an improved but still insufficient infrastructure, including the coaching pool. After a global search, GGG is the best we could do, even after all the Reyna drama that might have proven eliminating elsewhere. That tells me that few or no one wants the job, not that GGG won the job. We need to improve the sport's culture and take advantage of declines elsewhere (baseball, football), but i don't know if we have the culture for it.

We could probably point to aspects of the Women's team for signs that the USSF is falling short too. We're no longer the powerhouse, and that's to be expected given the global attention now given to Women's soccer, but we seem to be a bit of a mess.

To be fair, easier said than done.

 

[encaitar]

read what the fans say about Southgate at the Euro's right now

To be fair, Southgate is not a very good manager - the criticism he receives for his dull style, and lack of being able to beat "good" teams is justified.

I would be disappointed if the US sacked Berhalter, and hired Southgate...

Every national team manager is heavily criticized. England made it to the last Euro finals and lost in a pk shootout. I mean, you can't get much closer than that to winning a major title. Nagelsman is one of the best managers in the world (again, imho) and unless Germany wins this year's Euro (going to be very tough with that draw) and/or the next WC, he'll be looking for a new job.
Nothing is ever good enough for national fans.

You'll be hard pressed to find anyone in the world of soccer that doesn't rate England as one of the top 3 most talented sides in the world for the past decade. Right now, they've got an argument for #1.

Yes, Southgate got them a runner's up at Euro and a semifinal at the WC in 2018, but that's the level they should be reaching. It honestly reminds me of Low in Germany in the late 2000s/early 2010s. I didn't think he was a great manager, but he had the most talented side in the world and kept getting into semifinals and finals and thus kept his job. They finally won in 2014, but I honestly think that German team underachieved greatly. This England team should be considered a failure if they don't win multiple trophies together because that's how good their talent level is IMO.

 

[NewlyRetired]

read what the fans say about Southgate at the Euro's right now

To be fair, Southgate is not a very good manager - the criticism he receives for his dull style, and lack of being able to beat "good" teams is justified.

I would be disappointed if the US sacked Berhalter, and hired Southgate...

England is the USA of UEFA. Plenty of talent, poor leadership at the coaching level, poor showings in tournaments despite the talent, an occasional good performance in the EUROs/Gold Cup. My Lord England is talented. Foden won EPL's man of the year and I've seen posts suggesting he go to the bench. What? Talk about a fanbase that suffers. it's us x100.

The US Soccer Federation has to take some of the heat here. We have an improved but still insufficient infrastructure, including the coaching pool. After a global search, GGG is the best we could do, even after all the Reyna drama that might have proven eliminating elsewhere. That tells me that few or no one wants the job, not that GGG won the job. We need to improve the sport's culture and take advantage of declines elsewhere (baseball, football), but i don't know if we have the culture for it.

We could probably point to aspects of the Women's team for signs that the USSF is falling short too. We're no longer the powerhouse, and that's to be expected given the global attention now given to Women's soccer, but we seem to be a bit of a mess.

To be fair, easier said than done.

Money is a huge factor in getting a coach as well. The pool of coaches would expand significantly if we could pay like we did for Klinsmann but those days are likely over due to equal pay issues.

 

[The Z Machine]

Just tinkering, back of napkin stuff. Any feelings if this would have worked better after half time?

a 4-4-1

Both 4's are flat.

Scally........Richards......Ream........Lund

Aaronson......Musah......Weston.......Jedi

................................Balo (and when tired, replaced with Sargent)


Scally, Lund and Weston are told to stay at home at all costs. Aaronson and Jedi to run balls off.

Since normal passing patterns are limited in this formation with 10 men, that plays into Musah's hands (feet) where he is given free reign to dribble to break the lines and start any possible counters.

That's what I was getting at that I hated the subs AND the formation chosen. I get it that GGG felt the need to lock down the defense more with an extra defender. But I would have considered putting Wes or Adams on the back line (or just in front). Putting CCV in there really messed things up, not because of shape as the 5 man back line did blunt Panama's ability to shoot, but really he was just a liability trying to "do too much". Also, there's no reason to pull your goal scorer unless Balo was cooked, and I don't think he was. In any case, Sargent would have been better up there than Pepi.

BTW, the US had a better xG overall and about even xG from open play, despite playing a man down for the vast majority of the game. But xG isn't G.

 

[The Z Machine]

read what the fans say about Southgate at the Euro's right now

To be fair, Southgate is not a very good manager - the criticism he receives for his dull style, and lack of being able to beat "good" teams is justified.

I would be disappointed if the US sacked Berhalter, and hired Southgate...

England is the USA of UEFA. Plenty of talent, poor leadership at the coaching level, poor showings in tournaments despite the talent, an occasional good performance in the EUROs/Gold Cup. My Lord England is talented. Foden won EPL's man of the year and I've seen posts suggesting he go to the bench. What? Talk about a fanbase that suffers. it's us x100.

The US Soccer Federation has to take some of the heat here. We have an improved but still insufficient infrastructure, including the coaching pool. After a global search, GGG is the best we could do, even after all the Reyna drama that might have proven eliminating elsewhere. That tells me that few or no one wants the job, not that GGG won the job. We need to improve the sport's culture and take advantage of declines elsewhere (baseball, football), but i don't know if we have the culture for it.

We could probably point to aspects of the Women's team for signs that the USSF is falling short too. We're no longer the powerhouse, and that's to be expected given the global attention now given to Women's soccer, but we seem to be a bit of a mess.

To be fair, easier said than done.

Money is a huge factor in getting a coach as well. The pool of coaches would expand significantly if we could pay like we did for Klinsmann but those days are likely over due to equal pay issues.

Just up the pay of the USWNT coach! This isn't hard, people.

 

[guru_007]

read what the fans say about Southgate at the Euro's right now

To be fair, Southgate is not a very good manager - the criticism he receives for his dull style, and lack of being able to beat "good" teams is justified.

I would be disappointed if the US sacked Berhalter, and hired Southgate...

England is the USA of UEFA. Plenty of talent, poor leadership at the coaching level, poor showings in tournaments despite the talent, an occasional good performance in the EUROs/Gold Cup. My Lord England is talented. Foden won EPL's man of the year and I've seen posts suggesting he go to the bench. What? Talk about a fanbase that suffers. it's us x100.

I don't think reaching the finals in the last major tournament and losing in a pk shootout is a poor result. Disappointing, sure, but it's one match for all the marbles, anything can happen be it injuries, red card, etc.. I'd venture to guess that is the U.S. reached the finals in this tournament and lost in a pk, GGG would probably be extended. That is a good result in a major tournament.

read what the fans say about Southgate at the Euro's right now

To be fair, Southgate is not a very good manager - the criticism he receives for his dull style, and lack of being able to beat "good" teams is justified.

I would be disappointed if the US sacked Berhalter, and hired Southgate...

Every national team manager is heavily criticized. England made it to the last Euro finals and lost in a pk shootout. I mean, you can't get much closer than that to winning a major title. Nagelsman is one of the best managers in the world (again, imho) and unless Germany wins this year's Euro (going to be very tough with that draw) and/or the next WC, he'll be looking for a new job.
Nothing is ever good enough for national fans.

You'll be hard pressed to find anyone in the world of soccer that doesn't rate England as one of the top 3 most talented sides in the world for the past decade. Right now, they've got an argument for #1.

Yes, Southgate got them a runner's up at Euro and a semifinal at the WC in 2018, but that's the level they should be reaching. It honestly reminds me of Low in Germany in the late 2000s/early 2010s. I didn't think he was a great manager, but he had the most talented side in the world and kept getting into semifinals and finals and thus kept his job. They finally won in 2014, but I honestly think that German team underachieved greatly. This England team should be considered a failure if they don't win multiple trophies together because that's how good their talent level is IMO.

I am a German national team supporter. They are probably the national team I'm most familiar with. Every time they get knocked out it's heart break, but that's the breaks in tournaments. Not sure however how winning a WC is underachieving.

England is currently 5th in FIFA rankings. Yes, England is talented, but guess what? So is Germany, so is Portugal, so is Belgium. Portugal in fact has an embarrassment of riches in that their bench would probably be a FIFA top 15 team, but coach defers to veterans too often there.
Norway didn't even make the Euro's this year and have arguably the two of the best 4 players in the EPL.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

It's a dead horse, but outside of turner getting wiped out- which was an obvious yellow- I don't think the ref missed much and ultimately got all the big calls right.

Or should we have hoped for the guy who did the Turkey Chech game, since euro refs are so wonderful?

I mostly agree but he also majorly botched stoppage time. +4 minutes when there were probably +12ish in reality. No yellows for time wasting when they kicked the ball into the stands after the whistle. And blew right at 4 minutes when they barely played half of that of the actual stoppage time.

 

[El Floppo]

It's a dead horse, but outside of turner getting wiped out- which was an obvious yellow- I don't think the ref missed much and ultimately got all the big calls right.

Or should we have hoped for the guy who did the Turkey Chech game, since euro refs are so wonderful?

I mostly agree but he also majorly botched stoppage time. +4 minutes when there were probably +12ish in reality. No yellows for time wasting when they kicked the ball into the stands after the whistle. And blew right at 4 minutes when they barely played half of that of the actual stoppage time.

Absolutely right there... 4 minutes is preposterous. And there were stoppages even during the 4 minutes that should've extended it.

Make that 2 clear mistakes.

 

[The Z Machine]

I agree with the sentiment that the ref mostly got things right except for the foul on Turner and the extra time. Panama played a cynical game to get the 3 points, but that's how you advance in a tournament like this.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I agree with the sentiment that the ref mostly got things right except for the foul on Turner and the extra time. Panama played a cynical game to get the 3 points, but that's how you advance in a tournament like this.

Is the ref fully responsible for extra time or does the 4th official have input?

 

[Major]

read what the fans say about Southgate at the Euro's right now

To be fair, Southgate is not a very good manager - the criticism he receives for his dull style, and lack of being able to beat "good" teams is justified.

I would be disappointed if the US sacked Berhalter, and hired Southgate...

England is the USA of UEFA. Plenty of talent, poor leadership at the coaching level, poor showings in tournaments despite the talent, an occasional good performance in the EUROs/Gold Cup. My Lord England is talented. Foden won EPL's man of the year and I've seen posts suggesting he go to the bench. What? Talk about a fanbase that suffers. it's us x100.

The US Soccer Federation has to take some of the heat here. We have an improved but still insufficient infrastructure, including the coaching pool. After a global search, GGG is the best we could do, even after all the Reyna drama that might have proven eliminating elsewhere. That tells me that few or no one wants the job, not that GGG won the job. We need to improve the sport's culture and take advantage of declines elsewhere (baseball, football), but i don't know if we have the culture for it.

We could probably point to aspects of the Women's team for signs that the USSF is falling short too. We're no longer the powerhouse, and that's to be expected given the global attention now given to Women's soccer, but we seem to be a bit of a mess.

To be fair, easier said than done.

Money is a huge factor in getting a coach as well. The pool of coaches would expand significantly if we could pay like we did for Klinsmann but those days are likely over due to equal pay issues.

Just up the pay of the USWNT coach! This isn't hard, people.

paging The Special One

 

[FreeBaGeL]

read what the fans say about Southgate at the Euro's right now

To be fair, Southgate is not a very good manager - the criticism he receives for his dull style, and lack of being able to beat "good" teams is justified.

I would be disappointed if the US sacked Berhalter, and hired Southgate...

Every national team manager is heavily criticized. England made it to the last Euro finals and lost in a pk shootout. I mean, you can't get much closer than that to winning a major title. Nagelsman is one of the best managers in the world (again, imho) and unless Germany wins this year's Euro (going to be very tough with that draw) and/or the next WC, he'll be looking for a new job.
Nothing is ever good enough for national fans.

I mean, c'mon. England is veritable dream team out there playing like a merely above average team. Yes they made those two runs but had very fortunate draws in each of them in the knockouts (like they've lucked into again this year).

If we're looking at the aforementioned US metric, the England team's transfermarket value is $1.5bn. Easily the highest in the world and fully double the value of World Cup winners Argentina. And they're out there squeaking out +1 gd against Serbia, Slovenia, Denmark.

 

[mr. furley]

You guys honestly think it's the coach and not the players? Or the culture?

does the US even have a top... 100... player in the world?

Yes. I think a lot of the angst shown from the fans and in this thread is this is (IMHO) the most talented USMNT ever.
I know this is apropos of nothing, but one of the better ways of evaluating talent is the transfer value of the player on the open market.
On the US right now
Pulisic €34.0m
Weah €13.7m
Balugan €29.4m
Adams €17.6m
Reyna €20.7m
McKennie €24.8m
Robinson €20.7m
Those are the best starters (imo) and that's over €160m
There are more than three bench players that are valued over €10m each on the U.S. squad

The entire Bolivia side is probably aggregate under €15m

It's difficult to gauge a team the sum of it's parts, but it is on the coach to get a bit more out of the players.
The reason I don't care for international soccer is it's very tough for a coach to get the most out of his players when they train a few weeks out of the year and oftentimes the star players are rested in practice because they are coming off a long club schedule. This is why most of the better coaches out there avoid national team duty because they are always thrown under the bus. If you think this is bad, read what the fans say about Southgate at the Euro's right now and that teams in on track to get to at least the semi finals of the whole damn tournament. It's never good enough.

That said, this is a very disappointing copa for the US. They should have thrashed Bolivia. Early red card is a killer against an inferior opponent. But it's not over yet. They can beat Uruguay, especially if there is some rotation there. But it's going to be tough sledding.

is ESPN as bad with soccer rankings as they are with pretty much everything else or is this seen as a reputable list?

The FC 100 for 2023: Haaland, Mbappe lead our list of best men's soccer players

After a brief hiatus thanks to the winter World Cup in Qatar, ESPN presents its seventh annual ranking of the best men's players and coaches in world soccer! Welcome to FC 100.

www.espn.com

no US or Mexican players in the top 100 (in 2023, can't find a better, comprehensive list for 2024).

 

[mr. furley]

You guys honestly think it's the coach and not the players? Or the culture?

does the US even have a top... 100... player in the world?

Pulisic easily is. Might even be close to top 50. He was a better player than Leao this season on Milan and Leao is typically ranked in the top 30 in the world.

Jedi might not be top 100 in the world, but he would very likely have started for England this summer had he chosen to stay with England, and that is one of the top ranked teams in the world.

in terms i can understand

Ohhh boy.

the sledding was always going to be uphill

 

[encaitar]

You guys honestly think it's the coach and not the players? Or the culture?

does the US even have a top... 100... player in the world?

Yes. I think a lot of the angst shown from the fans and in this thread is this is (IMHO) the most talented USMNT ever.
I know this is apropos of nothing, but one of the better ways of evaluating talent is the transfer value of the player on the open market.
On the US right now
Pulisic €34.0m
Weah €13.7m
Balugan €29.4m
Adams €17.6m
Reyna €20.7m
McKennie €24.8m
Robinson €20.7m
Those are the best starters (imo) and that's over €160m
There are more than three bench players that are valued over €10m each on the U.S. squad

The entire Bolivia side is probably aggregate under €15m

It's difficult to gauge a team the sum of it's parts, but it is on the coach to get a bit more out of the players.
The reason I don't care for international soccer is it's very tough for a coach to get the most out of his players when they train a few weeks out of the year and oftentimes the star players are rested in practice because they are coming off a long club schedule. This is why most of the better coaches out there avoid national team duty because they are always thrown under the bus. If you think this is bad, read what the fans say about Southgate at the Euro's right now and that teams in on track to get to at least the semi finals of the whole damn tournament. It's never good enough.

That said, this is a very disappointing copa for the US. They should have thrashed Bolivia. Early red card is a killer against an inferior opponent. But it's not over yet. They can beat Uruguay, especially if there is some rotation there. But it's going to be tough sledding.

is ESPN as bad with soccer rankings as they are with pretty much everything else or is this seen as a reputable list?

The FC 100 for 2023: Haaland, Mbappe lead our list of best men's soccer players

After a brief hiatus thanks to the winter World Cup in Qatar, ESPN presents its seventh annual ranking of the best men's players and coaches in world soccer! Welcome to FC 100.

www.espn.com

no US or Mexican players in the top 100 (in 2023, can't find a better, comprehensive list for 2024).

ESPN is almost certainly worse at soccer rankings than they are at any other sport.

However, the fact that there were zero US players on the top 100 of 2023 is probably accurate. Pulisic had a terrible year where he battled injuries and 3 separate head coaches in one year that all seemed to prefer other players over him. Jedi hadn't yet developed enough to be considered. Every other decent US player also had down years.

2024? Pulisic was the best attacking player on AC Milan(a team that includes Rafael Leao who's rumored to be worth $100M+). He's almost certainly going to be in the top 70 of this year's list. Jedi made a huge jump in quality this year as well. I wouldn't be surprised to see him claim a spot near the bottom of the top 100.

As for why there aren't more? Look at where most of the top 100 are from.... You'll soon understand why we say there's a huge gulf between the top 10 teams in the world and teams 11-45.

 

[NewlyRetired]

You guys honestly think it's the coach and not the players? Or the culture?

does the US even have a top... 100... player in the world?

Yes. I think a lot of the angst shown from the fans and in this thread is this is (IMHO) the most talented USMNT ever.
I know this is apropos of nothing, but one of the better ways of evaluating talent is the transfer value of the player on the open market.
On the US right now
Pulisic €34.0m
Weah €13.7m
Balugan €29.4m
Adams €17.6m
Reyna €20.7m
McKennie €24.8m
Robinson €20.7m
Those are the best starters (imo) and that's over €160m
There are more than three bench players that are valued over €10m each on the U.S. squad

The entire Bolivia side is probably aggregate under €15m

It's difficult to gauge a team the sum of it's parts, but it is on the coach to get a bit more out of the players.
The reason I don't care for international soccer is it's very tough for a coach to get the most out of his players when they train a few weeks out of the year and oftentimes the star players are rested in practice because they are coming off a long club schedule. This is why most of the better coaches out there avoid national team duty because they are always thrown under the bus. If you think this is bad, read what the fans say about Southgate at the Euro's right now and that teams in on track to get to at least the semi finals of the whole damn tournament. It's never good enough.

That said, this is a very disappointing copa for the US. They should have thrashed Bolivia. Early red card is a killer against an inferior opponent. But it's not over yet. They can beat Uruguay, especially if there is some rotation there. But it's going to be tough sledding.

is ESPN as bad with soccer rankings as they are with pretty much everything else or is this seen as a reputable list?

The FC 100 for 2023: Haaland, Mbappe lead our list of best men's soccer players

After a brief hiatus thanks to the winter World Cup in Qatar, ESPN presents its seventh annual ranking of the best men's players and coaches in world soccer! Welcome to FC 100.

www.espn.com

no US or Mexican players in the top 100 (in 2023, can't find a better, comprehensive list for 2024).

It is subjective of course but last year I think it was reasonable to not find any US players in the top 100 last year. Pulisic made a huge leap this year being healthy for a full season.

 

[BassNBrew]

You guys honestly think it's the coach and not the players? Or the culture?

Yes. I do. I think many other coaches would get more out of this team.

I think that's delusional.

why?

Because it's never been a solution to out problem, sir. What coach do you think makes this team better?

I'm not really sure the point you are trying to make.

Good coaches elevate players. Good coaches make teams better than the sum of their parts. This transcends all sports. And often - across all sports - removing a coach that isn't getting it done can and does result in quick improvement.

Well if it is as simple as that then the US should hire a good coach to elevate this team. Not sure why they didn't come to that conclusion earlier.

Problem is the women will sue them if they hire a good coach. What a country.

 

[guru_007]

You guys honestly think it's the coach and not the players? Or the culture?

does the US even have a top... 100... player in the world?

Yes. I think a lot of the angst shown from the fans and in this thread is this is (IMHO) the most talented USMNT ever.
I know this is apropos of nothing, but one of the better ways of evaluating talent is the transfer value of the player on the open market.
On the US right now
Pulisic €34.0m
Weah €13.7m
Balugan €29.4m
Adams €17.6m
Reyna €20.7m
McKennie €24.8m
Robinson €20.7m
Those are the best starters (imo) and that's over €160m
There are more than three bench players that are valued over €10m each on the U.S. squad

The entire Bolivia side is probably aggregate under €15m

It's difficult to gauge a team the sum of it's parts, but it is on the coach to get a bit more out of the players.
The reason I don't care for international soccer is it's very tough for a coach to get the most out of his players when they train a few weeks out of the year and oftentimes the star players are rested in practice because they are coming off a long club schedule. This is why most of the better coaches out there avoid national team duty because they are always thrown under the bus. If you think this is bad, read what the fans say about Southgate at the Euro's right now and that teams in on track to get to at least the semi finals of the whole damn tournament. It's never good enough.

That said, this is a very disappointing copa for the US. They should have thrashed Bolivia. Early red card is a killer against an inferior opponent. But it's not over yet. They can beat Uruguay, especially if there is some rotation there. But it's going to be tough sledding.

is ESPN as bad with soccer rankings as they are with pretty much everything else or is this seen as a reputable list?

The FC 100 for 2023: Haaland, Mbappe lead our list of best men's soccer players

After a brief hiatus thanks to the winter World Cup in Qatar, ESPN presents its seventh annual ranking of the best men's players and coaches in world soccer! Welcome to FC 100.

www.espn.com

no US or Mexican players in the top 100 (in 2023, can't find a better, comprehensive list for 2024).

That list looks like it is ranking them as of right now. I saw for instance Casemiro on that list and wouldn't have him in my top 100 going forward as age and injuries have certainly played a factor.
Pulisic at 25 years old, in his prime and how he has been playing at the club level, certainly has much higher upside.
Most of the U.S. players I've detailed above reaching or at prime ages as well (young to mid 20's). Whether they are top 100 individual players in the world, well, that's tomato tomatoh. But they are certainly in the discussion which is more than can be said for the USMNT pretty much ever.

 

[TennesseeJed]

I don't think reaching the finals in the last major tournament and losing in a pk shootout is a poor result.

Just like this year - England benefited from a kind draw in the knock-out stages.

2022 WC - lost in QFs to France - beat Iran, Wales and Senegal - drew with the US. First tough game they played - they lost.

2020 Euros - very similar to this year - beat Croatia and Czech Republic in the group stage, drew with Scotland - 2 goals score, none conceded in group. first knockout game - Germany, whom England caught when Germany were in a down cycle. Then they beat Ukraine 4-0, beat Denmark in extra time, and then lost to Italy on Pens in the final.

The opposite side of that bracket was Belgium, Portugal, Italy, France, and Spain. England did not play a top team until the Final.

2018 World Cup - again similar to this year - opposite bracket: Portugal, France, Argentina, Brazil and Belgium. On England's side - Spain (who were upset by Russia). England played Colombia, Sweden before losing to Croatia in the SF - the first tough team they faced.



Southgate does a good job beating the teams he should, and a poor job beating teams that are competitive.

 

[TennesseeJed]

****ing weah. Good lord.

My hot take - I think people are being too harsh on Weah.

Yes - boneheaded move.
Yes - he should have known better.
Yes - it contributed to the US not getting a result.


But, in reality, the US should have been better prepared for those tactics in the first place, and should have been able to grind out a result, even playing a man down. (And in fact, the US were in position to do just that for most of the match).

 

[mr. furley]

You guys honestly think it's the coach and not the players? Or the culture?

does the US even have a top... 100... player in the world?

Yes. I think a lot of the angst shown from the fans and in this thread is this is (IMHO) the most talented USMNT ever.
I know this is apropos of nothing, but one of the better ways of evaluating talent is the transfer value of the player on the open market.
On the US right now
Pulisic €34.0m
Weah €13.7m
Balugan €29.4m
Adams €17.6m
Reyna €20.7m
McKennie €24.8m
Robinson €20.7m
Those are the best starters (imo) and that's over €160m
There are more than three bench players that are valued over €10m each on the U.S. squad

The entire Bolivia side is probably aggregate under €15m

It's difficult to gauge a team the sum of it's parts, but it is on the coach to get a bit more out of the players.
The reason I don't care for international soccer is it's very tough for a coach to get the most out of his players when they train a few weeks out of the year and oftentimes the star players are rested in practice because they are coming off a long club schedule. This is why most of the better coaches out there avoid national team duty because they are always thrown under the bus. If you think this is bad, read what the fans say about Southgate at the Euro's right now and that teams in on track to get to at least the semi finals of the whole damn tournament. It's never good enough.

That said, this is a very disappointing copa for the US. They should have thrashed Bolivia. Early red card is a killer against an inferior opponent. But it's not over yet. They can beat Uruguay, especially if there is some rotation there. But it's going to be tough sledding.

is ESPN as bad with soccer rankings as they are with pretty much everything else or is this seen as a reputable list?

The FC 100 for 2023: Haaland, Mbappe lead our list of best men's soccer players

After a brief hiatus thanks to the winter World Cup in Qatar, ESPN presents its seventh annual ranking of the best men's players and coaches in world soccer! Welcome to FC 100.

www.espn.com

no US or Mexican players in the top 100 (in 2023, can't find a better, comprehensive list for 2024).

ESPN is almost certainly worse at soccer rankings than they are at any other sport.

However, the fact that there were zero US players on the top 100 of 2023 is probably accurate. Pulisic had a terrible year where he battled injuries and 3 separate head coaches in one year that all seemed to prefer other players over him. Jedi hadn't yet developed enough to be considered. Every other decent US player also had down years.

2024? Pulisic was the best attacking player on AC Milan(a team that includes Rafael Leao who's rumored to be worth $100M+). He's almost certainly going to be in the top 70 of this year's list. Jedi made a huge jump in quality this year as well. I wouldn't be surprised to see him claim a spot near the bottom of the top 100.

As for why there aren't more? Look at where most of the top 100 are from.... You'll soon understand why we say there's a huge gulf between the top 10 teams in the world and teams 11-45.

thanks. trying to wrap my head around the whole enchilada since i don't follow the sport closely as a whole. watch the internationals and casually understand the game but trying to learn.

i follow a sport that's pretty wildly imbalanced in that the top 3-4 teams face each other in the semis and finals of 95% of tournaments and maybe there are 1-2 other teams that have a small chance for an upset now and again. soccer feels like that to me... at least now.

 

[The Z Machine]

You guys honestly think it's the coach and not the players? Or the culture?

Yes. I do. I think many other coaches would get more out of this team.

I think that's delusional.

why?

Because it's never been a solution to out problem, sir. What coach do you think makes this team better?

I'm not really sure the point you are trying to make.

Good coaches elevate players. Good coaches make teams better than the sum of their parts. This transcends all sports. And often - across all sports - removing a coach that isn't getting it done can and does result in quick improvement.

Well if it is as simple as that then the US should hire a good coach to elevate this team. Not sure why they didn't come to that conclusion earlier.

Problem is the women will sue them if they hire a good coach. What a country.

Just up the pay of the USWNT coach. Isn't there a billionaire that can foot the $10m/year salary here????

 

[Capella]

You guys honestly think it's the coach and not the players? Or the culture?

Yes. I do. I think many other coaches would get more out of this team.

I think that's delusional.

why?

Because it's never been a solution to out problem, sir. What coach do you think makes this team better?

I'm not really sure the point you are trying to make.

Good coaches elevate players. Good coaches make teams better than the sum of their parts. This transcends all sports. And often - across all sports - removing a coach that isn't getting it done can and does result in quick improvement.

Well if it is as simple as that then the US should hire a good coach to elevate this team. Not sure why they didn't come to that conclusion earlier.

Problem is the women will sue them if they hire a good coach. What a country.

Just up the pay of the USWNT coach. Isn't there a billionaire that can foot the $10m/year salary here????

Yea I don’t get the problem. They’re selling these usmnt seats for a 150 bucks a pop.

 

[The Z Machine]

the top 3-4 teams face each other in the semis and finals of 95% of tournaments and maybe there are 1-2 other teams that have a small chance for an upset now and again. soccer feels like that to me... at least now.

It's not like that in soccer. Right now, there are about 8-10 countries that can win a major tournament (World Cup / Euros / Copa America). BRA, ARG, COL, ENG, GER, FRA, ESP, ITA, POR. Then there are definite upsets where a team like DEN or CRO or URU can take out any of those top 10.