Finless
Footballguy
Don't try to bring logic into this thread. THERE'S NO COMPARISON!!!
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I think Lebron is Better than Jordan (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Finless
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cstu
Footballguy
Actually I was off - Jordan was 25 (actually about 25 and 2 months when he received it). If Lebron wins it this year he will be 24 and 4 months, almost a year younger the MJ.
Statcruncher
Footballguy
So if Lebron wins it this year it only took him 6 seasons to win it.It took Jordan 4 years (including the season he missed 64 games with a broken foot) to win the MVP. For the record Jordan never went more than 4 years without winning an MVP award.Got it.
Statcruncher
Footballguy
How many of those skipped college? Malone is the answer.
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cstu
Footballguy
And it only took Moses Malone 5 years to win it. No offense, but that argument makes no sense for players who skipped college. All that matters is the age at which they won it.
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Blood Hound
Footballguy
Statcruncher
Footballguy
Seriously? Why wouldn't it matter? If you want to determine who is adjusting to a league the best are you going to judge by calendar age or years in the league? Regardless, we already know that even if James wins it this year he's still not as good as Moses Malone.
Also consider that Pippen never got nearly the same amount of calls as Jordan either. The guy was the darling of the referees at the time as well. Pippen never had more than 440 free throws in a season (a season without Jordan). He usually only got about 200-300. Jordan was getting 600-700 regularly. He almost got 1000 in a year at one point in his career. During that 2nd run, Jordan was getting 650 free throw attempts a season, Pippen only got 307.5 in his 2 full seasons during that stretch.You could look at Jordan the wrong way and he was going to be at the line. It might not even take that much, you could stand motionless and they'd still put him at the line.I'm not sure if you intended to include me in that bolded statement, but I do appreciate all around games.That said, for the regular season comparison, almost everything is a wash except ppg, apg, shooting, and missed games... and all but one of those favor Jordan.
And for the playoff comparison, ppg and shooting favor Jordan by such a large margin that it lifts his overall performance above Pippen's. Sorry, but IMO 13.4 ppg on better shooting is worth more than 1.4 rpg, 0.9 apg, 0.5 spg, and 0.3 bpg... and, heck, on the assists front, Pippen was passing to Jordan and Jordan was passing to Pippen... their respective shooting percentages could have been the difference on that front. Just think of all the close playoff series and playoff games they had over those years and tell me this: do you really think those narrow margins by Pippen were worth as much as Jordan's 13.4 ppg?
Now consider that Jordan, not Pippen, was the focus of the opposing defense. This is a nobrainer.
96-97 is a great example - Pippen took 1366 shots and ended up with 291 free throws off of that. Jordan took 1850 shots, 35% more shots, and got 657 free throws - 123% more. Clearly one guy was getting a lot more calls of the two here.
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Mr. Pickles
Footballguy
I only take credit for things I actually invent. No need to throw another trophy on the pile.SaveFerrisB said:
Britney Spears
guest speaker
Have you seen LeBron James play? It seems you haven't.LeBron takes a beating, as do most "bigger" guys in the NBA. If you are looking for more phantom calls, look at some of the smaller players. I would say Chris Paul is a great example of this. I think he gets some of the most questionable fouls of any NBA star. Certainly I would not put LeBron James in this category. Most of his shots are near the basket, and he pays for it. He doesn't get fouled on jump shots much, because honestly people would much rather him take a jumper than get to the lane.
Finless
Footballguy
corpcow
Footballguy
Not a big NBA fan anymore, but I will throw out my usual point in these discussions: I think it's safe to say that the overall level of athletic talent today is higher than 20 years ago which means 1) on an absolute scale, the recent guys probably are a little "better" in terms of straight up comparison, 2) on a relative scale, domination is domination and 3) being able to dominate today is a little more impressive than being able to dominate yesterday.
Jordan was getting as many trips to the line as Lebron even back then. They gave Jordan tacky fouls even before these rules were in place, so it wouldn't have really mattered any if it were an official rule or not. If anything it would have hurt his defensive numbers, because he was allowed to mug people and not get called.
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Tau837
Footballguy
To state the obvious, it was easier to guard Pippen effectively without fouling him than it was to guard Jordan effectively without fouling him. On top of that, Pippen attempted 424 3-pointers in 1366 shots, compared to 297/1892 for Jordan... no surprise Pippen got a lot fewer free throws.You have to beAlso consider that Pippen never got nearly the same amount of calls as Jordan either. The guy was the darling of the referees at the time as well. Pippen never had more than 440 free throws in a season (a season without Jordan). He usually only got about 200-300. Jordan was getting 600-700 regularly. He almost got 1000 in a year at one point in his career. During that 2nd run, Jordan was getting 650 free throw attempts a season, Pippen only got 307.5 in his 2 full seasons during that stretch.You could look at Jordan the wrong way and he was going to be at the line. It might not even take that much, you could stand motionless and they'd still put him at the line.I'm not sure if you intended to include me in that bolded statement, but I do appreciate all around games.That said, for the regular season comparison, almost everything is a wash except ppg, apg, shooting, and missed games... and all but one of those favor Jordan.
And for the playoff comparison, ppg and shooting favor Jordan by such a large margin that it lifts his overall performance above Pippen's. Sorry, but IMO 13.4 ppg on better shooting is worth more than 1.4 rpg, 0.9 apg, 0.5 spg, and 0.3 bpg... and, heck, on the assists front, Pippen was passing to Jordan and Jordan was passing to Pippen... their respective shooting percentages could have been the difference on that front. Just think of all the close playoff series and playoff games they had over those years and tell me this: do you really think those narrow margins by Pippen were worth as much as Jordan's 13.4 ppg?
Now consider that Jordan, not Pippen, was the focus of the opposing defense. This is a nobrainer.
96-97 is a great example - Pippen took 1366 shots and ended up with 291 free throws off of that. Jordan took 1850 shots, 35% more shots, and got 657 free throws - 123% more. Clearly one guy was getting a lot more calls of the two here.
with this.
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
Wow, what an epic fishing trip. When Lebron wins something....anything, maybe a suggestion, a mere hint of a suggestion can be written about Lebron in a really, really, really long paragraph in which Jordan's name is mentioned.
I really like Lebron, don't get me wrong, but he has a ways to go before he is anywhere near Jordan. If the Cavs fall in the playoffs, all their regular season records and LBJ's MVP efforts mean jack. Win a few title, win a few MVP, then we can THINK about talking about the Lebron vs Jordan talk.
Oh, I am a Nuggets fan so I have no axe to grind against LBJ at all.
I really like Lebron, don't get me wrong, but he has a ways to go before he is anywhere near Jordan. If the Cavs fall in the playoffs, all their regular season records and LBJ's MVP efforts mean jack. Win a few title, win a few MVP, then we can THINK about talking about the Lebron vs Jordan talk.
Oh, I am a Nuggets fan so I have no axe to grind against LBJ at all.
It wasn't just a lot fewer, the difference was enormous - more than double the number of free throws. I watched several hundred Bulls games during that span, and that is definitely my opinion. Despite getting more lame calls than any player I've ever seen, Jordan still wasn't content and was about the biggest crybaby in league history. There's really no doubt that he got a lot more benefit from the officials than Pippen ever did. You think Jordan is getting that phantom foul called on him against Hubert Davis with like basically no time on the clock and a 2 point difference in the game? If you do, you're insane. It's one of the worst calls in sports history. Jordan could have commited an actual foul on the play and the refs swallow the whistle 10 times out of 10. And had that ridiculous call never happened, it's very possible the Bulls are in the finals without Michael Jordan. They would have had home court against the Pacers in the ECF, who they were 4-1 against during the regular season.Also, a big part of the reason Pippen doesn't have any MVP's is because he played with Jordan. He was 3rd in voting behind David Robinson and Hakeem that year, and was clearly the best non C in the league during the 55 win season. The following year he led the Bulls in every meaningful statistical category. I think there's like 3 or 4 players in the league's history that have done that, and Jordan isn't one of them. Unfortunately, he didn't get the credit he deserved when Jordan was around.To state the obvious, it was easier to guard Pippen effectively without fouling him than it was to guard Jordan effectively without fouling him. On top of that, Pippen attempted 424 3-pointers in 1366 shots, compared to 297/1892 for Jordan... no surprise Pippen got a lot fewer free throws.You have to beAlso consider that Pippen never got nearly the same amount of calls as Jordan either. The guy was the darling of the referees at the time as well. Pippen never had more than 440 free throws in a season (a season without Jordan). He usually only got about 200-300. Jordan was getting 600-700 regularly. He almost got 1000 in a year at one point in his career. During that 2nd run, Jordan was getting 650 free throw attempts a season, Pippen only got 307.5 in his 2 full seasons during that stretch.You could look at Jordan the wrong way and he was going to be at the line. It might not even take that much, you could stand motionless and they'd still put him at the line.I'm not sure if you intended to include me in that bolded statement, but I do appreciate all around games.That said, for the regular season comparison, almost everything is a wash except ppg, apg, shooting, and missed games... and all but one of those favor Jordan.
And for the playoff comparison, ppg and shooting favor Jordan by such a large margin that it lifts his overall performance above Pippen's. Sorry, but IMO 13.4 ppg on better shooting is worth more than 1.4 rpg, 0.9 apg, 0.5 spg, and 0.3 bpg... and, heck, on the assists front, Pippen was passing to Jordan and Jordan was passing to Pippen... their respective shooting percentages could have been the difference on that front. Just think of all the close playoff series and playoff games they had over those years and tell me this: do you really think those narrow margins by Pippen were worth as much as Jordan's 13.4 ppg?
Now consider that Jordan, not Pippen, was the focus of the opposing defense. This is a nobrainer.
96-97 is a great example - Pippen took 1366 shots and ended up with 291 free throws off of that. Jordan took 1850 shots, 35% more shots, and got 657 free throws - 123% more. Clearly one guy was getting a lot more calls of the two here.with this.
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Mr. Pickles
Footballguy
Epic?
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I don't want to get into the whole LeBron/MJ debate, but think of that call as payback for the robbery the Bulls got away with in Game 5 of the '93 EC Finals, when Charles Smith was hacked repeatedly under the basket as he went for the winning shot in the waning seconds. If the call is made there, it is very possible the Bulls never get that first three-peat. If you think Jordan wouldn't have gotten the foul called there, you are out of your mind.
Just something to think about.
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Jordan actually did foul him on that play, and wasn't called. Unless you call beating on a guy's arms to knock the ball loose as clean.
He just wasn't the last guy to foul him. Bulls with Jordan = license to mug. Bulls without Jordan = phantom foul calls.
I'm not really looking to get into the Lebron/Jordan debate here either. I just have a problem with the amount of credit each of these guys gets for those titles, and the notion that Jordan was surrounded by inferior talent outside of Pippen. It was a championship contender without him. Pippen gets far too little credit, as do the rest of the cast, and Jordan far too much.
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Finless
Footballguy
It's not exactly the Larry Bird thread.
Tau837
Footballguy
Winning 55 games and losing in the Eastern Conference semifinals does not equal a championship contender. 6 other teams won 55+ games, and 10 teams won 50+. Were they all contenders?And I notice you still haven't answered my question about why Pippen's Bulls were only 34-31 the following season when Jordan returned, and why they then went 13-4 the rest of the regular season. Who deserves the credit/responsibility for that?I already pointed out that the team had better talent in the second threepeat run than in the first. The reputation of Jordan carrying a weak supporting cast to titles was really formed during the first run, and it was more appropriate then. By the second run, Pippen was better and they had replaced Grant, Paxson, Cartwright, and some lesser players with Harper, Kerr, Kukoc, Rodman, Longley, and Wennington. But Jordan was still obviously the best player, and that team was not a contender without him.DrJ said:
Yes, every team that won 55 games that year was a contender. That Rockets team is generally considered one of the weakest championship teams because there was no big 2. And the reason the Bulls were 34-31 the following season is because it was Pippen and just a few more above average players but no all stars. They lost Horace Grant to the Magic. Pippen's supporting cast that year makes Lebron's supporting cast look like All Stars. That's why Pippen led them in every statistical category, there was no truly top talent on that team outside of Pippen until Jordan returned, and he had kept them above .500 literally by himself. And at that point the East was considered the stronger conference so it was a pretty solid accomplishment, the fact that he did what only 3-4 other players in history had done in leading them in every category makes it great. Then the year after Jordan came back they added Rodman.
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Tau837
Footballguy
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
I think he was talking about Eddie Jordan......
Wrigley
Footballguy
and now?
JMon348
Footballguy
toshiba
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Robert Jordan was the much better fantasy writer between the two. Could LeBron have developed The Wheel of Time?
cstu
Footballguy
A year later here's an update to the comparison:At age 25, Lebron won 61 games, his 2nd MVP, and lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs (6-5 record).At age 25, Jordan won 50 games, his 1st MVP, and lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs (4-6 record).
cstu
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
I think we all know MJ probably should have been the MVP like 5 more times than he was.
I think we also all know the Bulls win 8 straight rings if MJ doesn't retire.
Lebron is a ####### beast of a player...................I just can't take him over MJ. I can't take anyone over MJ.
I think we also all know the Bulls win 8 straight rings if MJ doesn't retire.
Lebron is a ####### beast of a player...................I just can't take him over MJ. I can't take anyone over MJ.
cstu
Footballguy
There aren't many bigger MJ fans than me but Lebron at 18 was where MJ was physically at around 27. Jordan was the most driven player I've ever seen but Lebron is physically the perfect basketball player. If he can keep his heart in the game he'll go down as better than Jordan.
Regarding the bolded, the Bulls probably win 10 straight if he didn't retire and the team didn't get blown up after their last win.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
It's MJ, and honestly it isn't even close... Lebron is a physical specimen, but the captain of my team should be the hardest working guy in the gym who is also the most clutch...
Jordan is in a class by himself.
Lebron is in the Kobe, Bird, Magic, Russell tier.
Jordan is in a class by himself.
Lebron is in the Kobe, Bird, Magic, Russell tier.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
Obviously before the Miami era, but Miami has more talent outside of Lebron than Chicago with MJ...
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
There is no way to know that. Who knows if their motivation to keep winning would have stayed up year after year, or if playing that deep into June every year, would have eventually taken its toll on the team, tiring them out, and resulting in an unexpected playoff defeat. Impossible to know.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Todem
Footballguy
I have a feeling Lebron will leap frog Jordan as my #1 after his career is over. Lebron still has so much basketabll left. He is a complete player though. And Jordan was the greatest I have ever seen......thus far over the course of an entire career.
Lebron works just as hard though....don't fool yourself. This guy works on every facet of his game in the summer. He is clearly a much better player in year 3 of his current Heat tenure than year one.
Clearly.
Lebron works just as hard though....don't fool yourself. This guy works on every facet of his game in the summer. He is clearly a much better player in year 3 of his current Heat tenure than year one.
Clearly.
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