Public Schools are getting worse (2 Viewers)

[JAA]

As a former BMore city resident, there would be no way of doing that without some legitimate equity / diversity concerns, assuming you broke them up geographically into 4 districts. It's a non-starter IMO.

Please explain as this may be the exact reason to separate them and it may be the exact reason things are failing.

 

[beer 30]

But like I said upthread, there are schools that were built in the 50s and 60s that lack adequate facilities. Poor heating, pipes freezing, flooding, rodents, no AC, roof leaks, etc. These facilities were not maintained over the last 60 years due to lack of investment, poor resource allocation, and general ineptitude, or even graft. That can be addressed by putting dollars into the facilities. And because the teaching of kids that come extreme poverty can be very challenging, it often costs more in teacher salary to retain the teachers willing to work in that space.

If you don't change who is allocating resources or causing the ineptitude and/or graft, nothing is going to change by throwing more money at it and that's what I think is happening now. If we dump a pile of money on the problem, it will go away when in reality all it does is stuff pockets of people that have no interest in making it better for the kids.

if he had the authority to run it he would shut the entire thing down and reboot the public school system in Baltimore. The level of waste was off the charts and the admin made one bonehead decision after another. Every year his incredulity grew as the system got more and more top-heavy and wasteful with no real benefit in the kids' learning.

This, only way to effect the change needed is to burn it to the ground and start from scratch. It ain't gonna happen but that's the only way you are going to fix it right.

 

[MAC_32]

The only metric worth discussing on that link is the ">$21,000 per pupil funding." However, we need to know much more information about the overall budget, population, and costs before understanding if the number is high.

My guess would be that there are too much Administration costs (which would be expected for a city), though I would imagine the underlying problem is administration has over decades kicked-down-the-road infrastructure costs. Passing the buck on hard choices like infrastructure is typical with poor leadership.

I'm about to throw a large monkey wrench in this conversation- cap ex is not captured in the per pupil funding calculation.

 

[JAA]

The only metric worth discussing on that link is the ">$21,000 per pupil funding." However, we need to know much more information about the overall budget, population, and costs before understanding if the number is high.

My guess would be that there are too much Administration costs (which would be expected for a city), though I would imagine the underlying problem is administration has over decades kicked-down-the-road infrastructure costs. Passing the buck on hard choices like infrastructure is typical with poor leadership.

I'm about to throw a large monkey wrench in this conversation- cap ex is not captured in the per pupil funding calculation.

If that is a working assumption, $21k is a reasonable amount of money per pupil. Not a ton, its less than ours, but its not something to shake a stick at.

 

[MAC_32]

The question at the start was "what is causing overcrowding", to which some brought up funding as the answer. When I was a kid there were 240 million people in the US. Now there are 340 million people. That's a 42% increase. Yet in my town between those two times there has been a 0% increase in the number of schools, and I haven't seen any major renovations that would add a large number classrooms (they were already decked out with portables even back when I was a kid).

So we're more crowded now than we were back then, simply because the number of kids has increased at a rate faster than the amount of funding to build new schools.

There may be more humans now then a few decades ago, but it's because we're living longer, not because there's more kids. There are a lot less kids now vs prior generations. The birth rate declined every year from 1989-2018 and it declined significantly from 2009-2013, these are today's elementary and middle schoolers.

 

[The Z Machine]

As a former BMore city resident, there would be no way of doing that without some legitimate equity / diversity concerns, assuming you broke them up geographically into 4 districts. It's a non-starter IMO.

Please explain as this may be the exact reason to separate them and it may be the exact reason things are failing.

Geographically, the children that come from higher income areas would be clumped into 1 or max 2 of the 4 districts. There would certainly be at least 1 district with huge huge levels of poverty and structural deficiencies. Unless those districts got the vast majority of the funding, they would whither and be even worse for the kids than it is now.

FWIW, the current BCPSS system has middle school choice and high school choice, where kids (read: parents that are paying attention and care) can move away from their local catchment to a school with fewer problems. But this also concentrates the kids that are high achievers into certain, well performing schools. My kids were set to go to one of these middle schools before we moved.

 

[MAC_32]

If that is a working assumption, $21k is a reasonable amount of money per pupil. Not a ton, its less than ours, but its not something to shake a stick at.

It depends. Intuitively, I suspect it's inflated, but would need more details. The sprinkling of what I read from you all may just be scratching the surface. Excess dollars into schools in this public ed environment is not how you address the real problem. Gonna be careful with this comment given forum rules and this thread's been great- these communities need more funding, but via these means? There are better ways.

 

[The Z Machine]

The question at the start was "what is causing overcrowding", to which some brought up funding as the answer. When I was a kid there were 240 million people in the US. Now there are 340 million people. That's a 42% increase. Yet in my town between those two times there has been a 0% increase in the number of schools, and I haven't seen any major renovations that would add a large number classrooms (they were already decked out with portables even back when I was a kid).

So we're more crowded now than we were back then, simply because the number of kids has increased at a rate faster than the amount of funding to build new schools.

There may be more humans now then a few decades ago, but it's because we're living longer, not because there's more kids. There are a lot less kids now vs prior generations. The birth rate declined every year from 1989-2018 and it declined significantly from 2009-2013, these are today's elementary and middle schoolers.

The birth rate may decline, but that doesn't mean there are fewer kids total. As long as the replacement rate is above zero and we have immigration, every generation will be numerically larger.

 

[fantasy stud]

Any idea what caused the overcrowding? It seems to me (outside observer) that our local school board has done a pretty good job looking at our demographics a few years down the road and staying ahead of predictable changes to incoming classes. Was this a case of something happening by surprise, or just folks being asleep at the switch?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say a lack of funding. This is what happens when people continuously vote against levies. What do you want them to do, build another building with no money?

It seems like you're here for an argument. Please leave me out of this.

IK - its a pretty solid response. Voting against increasing the amount of money a town can tax will inhibit its ability to grow at the appropriate rate.

How much does the US spend on its public schools relative to other first-world countries?

I have no idea. I only have my personal, real world, in-depth, first-hand experience.

Okay. If a person is going to lead off with "it's a lack of funding," it seems like we would need to start with a surface-level understanding of what public school funding is actually like. For example, does the US spend more, less, or about the same on its public schools as Germany? Japan? Canada? Surely if we're going to say that our schools are under-funded, we should have a general idea of what their funding level actually is, right?

I'll speed this up and get to the point. "US schools are underfunded" is one of those things that everyone thinks is so, but just isn't so. It's an urban legend. The US spends more per-capita on its public school students than pretty much anybody. No doubt there are individual school and school districts in various parts of the US that funded worse than others, but lack of funding is definitely not a system-wide problem. Or, it's a problem that must be really bad in other countries if it's causing a problem here.

Baltimore seems to be a case study in how funding, on its own, is not very correlated with results.

Baltimore

Those metrics are a bit misleading.

I understand that The Wire is a fictional program, but its depiction of Baltimore is generally considered pretty spot-on, or at least it was pretty spot-on when it aired.

Do you really think the problem with Baltimore schools is that we're not spending enough money on them?

My uncle taught middle school math for a few years in the 70s then went into business for himself (auto mechanic) for about 30 years before returning to the classroom to teach again. He was in the Baltimore school system for about ten years in the aughts and told me that, as a business owner, if he had the authority to run it he would shut the entire thing down and reboot the public school system in Baltimore. The level of waste was off the charts and the admin made one bonehead decision after another. Every year his incredulity grew as the system got more and more top-heavy and wasteful with no real benefit in the kids' learning.

Yes, as a teacher I see waste. A lot of it has to do with schools not having enough control . The district forces programs/ curriculum that aren't needed that are expensive.

 

[MAC_32]

The question at the start was "what is causing overcrowding", to which some brought up funding as the answer. When I was a kid there were 240 million people in the US. Now there are 340 million people. That's a 42% increase. Yet in my town between those two times there has been a 0% increase in the number of schools, and I haven't seen any major renovations that would add a large number classrooms (they were already decked out with portables even back when I was a kid).

So we're more crowded now than we were back then, simply because the number of kids has increased at a rate faster than the amount of funding to build new schools.

There may be more humans now then a few decades ago, but it's because we're living longer, not because there's more kids. There are a lot less kids now vs prior generations. The birth rate declined every year from 1989-2018 and it declined significantly from 2009-2013, these are today's elementary and middle schoolers.

The birth rate may decline, but that doesn't mean there are fewer kids total. As long as the replacement rate is above zero and we have immigration, every generation will be numerically larger.

Couple things- I over estimated the number of students enrolled in public ed from prior generations. I'm now wondering if that's because private ed enrollment was that much higher, but that's a separate issue. Fact is, public ed enrollment increased steadily until ~20 years ago. We sat on ~49m for about a decade starting around then and finally tipped over 50m in 2013. We stayed at that level until 2019 when we dropped below 50m again. We've been under ever since and projections indicate we'll (hopefully?) bottom out ~47m in a few years.

 

[JAA]

Geographically, the children that come from higher income areas would be clumped into 1 or max 2 of the 4 districts. There would certainly be at least 1 district with huge huge levels of poverty and structural deficiencies. Unless those districts got the vast majority of the funding, they would whither and be even worse for the kids than it is now.

Higher income already have more choices and if the schools are bad, they prolly are already going to private and/or getting tutor/extra help. I find this a false dichotomy.

Split the districts up and make each of them great. Obviously some will need more help then others, but some will need less help and that help can be funneled elsewhere.

For example, if I have a problem area, I want to contain those specific problems so they do not bleed everywhere else nor do the masses flatten actual problems. Then, only then, can you concisely articulate the problems so that you can properly address each and every one of them. It should also be said that this large district may be great for 60% of the kids. So what about the other 40%, how are they being served?

 

[JAA]

If that is a working assumption, $21k is a reasonable amount of money per pupil. Not a ton, its less than ours, but its not something to shake a stick at.

It depends. Intuitively, I suspect it's inflated, but would need more details. The sprinkling of what I read from you all may just be scratching the surface. Excess dollars into schools in this public ed environment is not how you address the real problem. Gonna be careful with this comment given forum rules and this thread's been great- these communities need more funding, but via these means? There are better ways.

Money is the answer, but money without a plan, measurement, and accountability is not the right approach.

 

[Max Power]

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Paywall, so I didn't get to read it all. Troubling trend.

Young people just aren't wired to read books now and schools/parents aren't forcing them to.

 

[Ilov80s]

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Paywall, so I didn't get to read it all. Troubling trend.

Young people just aren't wired to read books now and schools/parents aren't forcing them to.

Pretty tough to force kids to read in school. The freshman ELA class at the HS I work at has a mandatory 10 minute silent reading to start each class and the kids log what they read, how many pages, etc. I would say maybe 20% are genuinely reading, the others are just staring, trying to get on their phones, trying to communicate without being caught.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

x.com

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Paywall, so I didn't get to read it all. Troubling trend.

Young people just aren't wired to read books now and schools/parents aren't forcing them to.

Pretty tough to force kids to read in school. The freshman ELA class at the HS I work at has a mandatory 10 minute silent reading to start each class and the kids log what they read, how many pages, etc. I would say maybe 20% are genuinely reading, the others are just staring, trying to get on their phones, trying to communicate without being caught.

We were very happy with the public schools that our kids attended, but I did notice that they weren't reading as many books as what I remember reading in high school. We read Crime & Punishment, for example, and nothing that either of our kids brought home came anywhere close to that in terms of difficulty. In fairness, they did read a little Shakespeare.

 

[Ilov80s]

x.com

x.com

Paywall, so I didn't get to read it all. Troubling trend.

Young people just aren't wired to read books now and schools/parents aren't forcing them to.

Pretty tough to force kids to read in school. The freshman ELA class at the HS I work at has a mandatory 10 minute silent reading to start each class and the kids log what they read, how many pages, etc. I would say maybe 20% are genuinely reading, the others are just staring, trying to get on their phones, trying to communicate without being caught.

We were very happy with the public schools that our kids attended, but I did notice that they weren't reading as many books as what I remember reading in high school. We read Crime & Punishment, for example, and nothing that either of our kids brought home came anywhere close to that in terms of difficulty. In fairness, they did read a little Shakespeare.

Yeah we read Shakespeare too but it’s a struggle to get kids to read. Even social media has very much gone away from reading. A lot of the communication kids do on snap is just sharing pictures.

 

[belljr]

This isn't school related per se, but in that vein I am not a huge reader like I don't read books at all, but it annoys me if I want to read a news article or sports article and it's only a video I don't want to watch the video

 

[Chadstroma]

This isn't school related per se, but in that vein I am not a huge reader like I don't read books at all, but it annoys me if I want to read a news article or sports article and it's only a video I don't want to watch the video

I use to read a lot but fell out of the habit.... but I am 100% behind you on this. The only thing that is worse than a video after hitting a link is if it is one of those damn slide show things.

 

[Max Power]

Back to school part II.

The first half of the year had its ups and downs. I'll say grade inflation is still a very real thing. I think my kids' high school is giving out better grades than they deserve. I don't want to complain too much about this, but it sets kids up for struggles in college. My oldest is a Freshman this year and the reality of how much work goes into school hit him hard this year.

My new grumpy man complaint is with the amount of Extra Credit students can get. It's seemingly offered all the time and is very flexible on how it can be used. Before mid-terms the school had a canned food drive where the number of cans turned in correlate to what percentage towards a mid-term test a student can get. Great initiative, but the percentages got as high as 20%, which is pretty crazy to me.

I got an automated call from the school last night letting parents know they will begin using Yondr pouches in all classes starting today. https://www.overyondr.com/phone-locking-pouch

My kids were pretty upset about it and blamed a few bad kids for ruining it for everyone. I'm supportive of it and we'll see how well it works. Back of my mind I'm thinking how much this system cost the school knowing how resource strapped it already is. Phones in the classroom must be a major problem.

 

[SWC]

my mom was a librarian and so my kids grew up in libraries when she was watching them and still read book after book now and i believe firmly that my mom and wife forcing them to start on that path which now they want to be on was one of the best things that ever happened to my kids it helps with focus attention vocabulary comprehenshon and so much more take that to the bank brohans

 

[beer 30]

my mom was a librarian and so my kids grew up in libraries when she was watching them and still read book after book now and i believe firmly that my mom and wife forcing them to start on that path which now they want to be on was one of the best things that ever happened to my kids it helps with focus attention vocabulary comprehenshon and so much more take that to the bank brohans

These are my kids (not kids, 23 & 28). Almost every night they are both reading & are in a book club together. We read to them a ton growing up and I've always been a pretty avid reader so I like to think they picked it up from me but regardless, it's made a very noticeable change on vocabulary and just ability to have a conversation compared to others their age (or older) who haven't had that same exposure.

If your kids don't like to read, read to them. Make them enjoy it, the benefits down the road are immense.

 

[Max Power]

Back to school day for my two high schoolers and its more of the same as last year. Long term subs and a couple classes where the teacher admitted they wont be their teacher all semester.

Sadly a Google of the situation indicates things are indeed worse than last year.

North Carolina is experiencing a significant teacher shortage, with numerous vacancies in classrooms across the state. This shortage includes both fully licensed teachers and those on limited licenses. The problem is particularly acute in certain subjects like science, math, and special education, as well as in core K-5 classes.
Key aspects of the shortage:

• • Vacancies:
    In the 2024-2025 school year, there were over 7,000 vacant instructional positions, according to one report. This represents about 7.5% of the total teaching positions in the state.
    
  • Impact on Students:
    The shortage means many classrooms either have no qualified teacher or rely on long-term substitutes, potentially impacting the quality of education students receive.
    
  • High Turnover:
    North Carolina also faces a high teacher turnover rate, with a significant number of teachers leaving the profession each year, including those on limited licenses.
    
  • Limited License Teachers:
    A large and growing group of teachers in North Carolina are on limited licenses, often facing high costs and time commitments to obtain full licensure, which leads to many leaving the profession before completing the requirements.
    
  • Subject Areas:
    Shortages are particularly pronounced in science, math, and special education, as well as in core K-5 classrooms.

I guess it could be worse. Gary Indiana has to use virtual teachers due to the shortage.

Gary students back at school with some virtual teachers

Students in Gary, Indiana returned Thursday, and some students sat in classrooms while their teachers joined virtually.

abc7chicago.com

 

[djmich]

Will be interesting to see the impact AI has on teaching the next few years. I think first reaction is about the technology changing the classroom dynamics but for me it’s less about that and more about an inflow of potential teacher supply as other fields get AI automated out of existence or greatly reduced.

No job is safe from AI in that regard.

 

[Psychopav]

Will be interesting to see the impact AI has on teaching the next few years. I think first reaction is about the technology changing the classroom dynamics but for me it’s less about that and more about an inflow of potential teacher supply as other fields get AI automated out of existence or greatly reduced.

No job is safe from AI in that regard.

I was thinking about this very thing this morning. My daughter is a kindergarten teacher. My first thought was "well, she'll always have a job - AI can't replace THAT role. Maybe in the upper grades but surely not in early childhood education!"

Then I started to think about what it would take for AI to replace kindergarten teachers, and realized that it would require children at just 5 years old to already be socialized to essentially be comfortable with technological supervision and instruction. So is it impossible to envision this actually playing out? Sadly, unfortunately...no. And that's scary imo.

 

[Max Power]

Will be interesting to see the impact AI has on teaching the next few years. I think first reaction is about the technology changing the classroom dynamics but for me it’s less about that and more about an inflow of potential teacher supply as other fields get AI automated out of existence or greatly reduced.

No job is safe from AI in that regard.

I was thinking about this very thing this morning. My daughter is a kindergarten teacher. My first thought was "well, she'll always have a job - AI can't replace THAT role. Maybe in the upper grades but surely not in early childhood education!"

Then I started to think about what it would take for AI to replace kindergarten teachers, and realized that it would require children at just 5 years old to already be socialized to essentially be comfortable with technological supervision and instruction. So is it impossible to envision this actually playing out? Sadly, unfortunately...no. And that's scary imo.

Reading through that Gary In. Virtual teachers article, they are training classroom assistants to be the adults in the room while the instruction comes online. I agree the younger grades would be the hardest to substitute face to face learning.

 

[SoBeDad]

Back to school day for my two high schoolers and its more of the same as last year. Long term subs and a couple classes where the teacher admitted they wont be their teacher all semester.

Sadly a Google of the situation indicates things are indeed worse than last year.

I wonder if older retired part-time subject matter experts would help. Or adjunct professors/teachers, used extensively at most community colleges. I'm an adjunct in math at the local college (Miami Dade College), teaching at night, with a full-time day job. But many adjuncts cobble together more than one part-time teaching job, and would be willing to teach part-time in public high school, probably with better pay. Adjuncts get paid only about $2500 for a 3-credit class. Cheap. Why not have the same concept for high school? The gig economy.

Is low pay the problem? My SO does curriculum development and teacher training for preschools. She tells me those teachers are paid very little and there is high turnover.

 

[Zow]

While probably regional, there has been a local push for the strict removal of any sort of DEI implementations and a big push to impose the policies of the current administration.* This appears to have been done by local school boards. I'm aware of two areas/districts where the swift implementation of drastic changes to what teachers can say and do - along with some statewide legislation pushing for teachers to be personally liable for breaking said new "rules" - has caused a significant number of the teacher workforce to quit.

This is regional and anecdotal.

*This post takes no position on nor proffers any opinion about whether these policies are a "good" thing.

 

[Manster]

While probably regional, there has been a local push for the strict removal of any sort of DEI implementations and a big push to impose the policies of the current administration.* This appears to have been done by local school boards. I'm aware of two areas/districts where the swift implementation of drastic changes to what teachers can say and do - along with some statewide legislation pushing for teachers to be personally liable for breaking said new "rules" - has caused a significant number of the teacher workforce to quit.

This is regional and anecdotal.

*This post takes no position on nor proffers any opinion about whether these policies are a "good" thing.

Sounds like a good start!

 

[Zow]

While probably regional, there has been a local push for the strict removal of any sort of DEI implementations and a big push to impose the policies of the current administration.* This appears to have been done by local school boards. I'm aware of two areas/districts where the swift implementation of drastic changes to what teachers can say and do - along with some statewide legislation pushing for teachers to be personally liable for breaking said new "rules" - has caused a significant number of the teacher workforce to quit.

This is regional and anecdotal.

*This post takes no position on nor proffers any opinion about whether these policies are a "good" thing.

Sounds like a good start!

Out of respect for the rules of this board, I am not going to engage in whether the policies are a good thing. I merely want to point out that I'm personally aware of long-term, seemingly good teachers quitting in significant numbers due to new legislation, laws, or school board policies consistent with the national policies of the current administration. This appears to be occurring due to fear of being personally liable should a teacher say the wrong thing that is afoul of said policies.

 

[Zow]

my mom was a librarian and so my kids grew up in libraries when she was watching them and still read book after book now and i believe firmly that my mom and wife forcing them to start on that path which now they want to be on was one of the best things that ever happened to my kids it helps with focus attention vocabulary comprehenshon and so much more take that to the bank brohans

Gonna make you happy here SWC'er by noting that I worked in libraries from the time I was twelve through when I was 23 and graduated law school (worked in public libraries from 7th-12th grade and then at both my college's library and the law school library).

I am also maybe the only student in the history of the world who received a detention for literally reading a book during recess. The book was "IT" and I shared with a classmate, who then told on me (that snitch),* the portion about the Ritual of Chudd. Teacher was a substitute and she was so torn on what to do because how do you give a fifth grader who chooses to read a book during recess where other kids were horsing around? But, she apparently couldn't get over the adult language, so to detention I went where I sent the time... reading a book.

This is consistent with my mom yelling at me and me getting into trouble for reading with a flashlight under the covers after bedtime. Oh, I also had a geometry teacher throw a textbook at me for reading a book during his class. Yes, I was that ****ing cool.

Take that to the library, Dan Brohan.

 

[simey]

Back to school day for my two high schoolers and its more of the same as last year. Long term subs and a couple classes where the teacher admitted they wont be their teacher all semester.

Sadly a Google of the situation indicates things are indeed worse than last year.

You live in NC, and should know the reason why we have a teacher shortage. Teacher's pay in NC is very low compared to most other states. NC is one of the lowest in the nation. The Republican controlled legislature has zero respect for the profession. Our last Governor, Cooper, tried really hard to give them a respectable raise, but the legislatures don't feel the same way. They never have. The only way to help the teachers here in this state is to vote out the legislatures that couldn't care less about them, but it's hard to vote them out when NC is one of the worst gerrymandering states in the nation. My sister has been a teacher in NC her whole career, and so has one of my best friends. They work their butts off, and what they get paid to enrich the minds of these young people is insulting. The teachers even have to pay for their classroom materials with their own money, which they don't have much of due to their low pay. All that I just said is 100% true, and the teaching profession will remain a turnstile here until they are shown some respect and get paid like other states.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

Is low pay the problem? My SO does curriculum development and teacher training for preschools. She tells me those teachers are paid very little and there is high turnover.

It varies from state to state id imagine. In the Carolinas and Florida I've heard it stated that pay and fear are key factors. I now live in FL and have many friends in the NC and SC systems.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

Back to school day for my two high schoolers and its more of the same as last year. Long term subs and a couple classes where the teacher admitted they wont be their teacher all semester.

Sadly a Google of the situation indicates things are indeed worse than last year.

You live in NC, and should know the reason why we have a teacher shortage. Teacher's pay in NC is very low compared to most other states. NC is one of the lowest in the nation. The Republican controlled legislature has zero respect for the profession. Our last Governor, Cooper, tried really hard to give them a respectable raise, but the legislatures don't feel the same way. They never have. The only way to help the teachers here in this state is to vote out the legislatures that couldn't care less about them, but it's hard to vote them out when NC is one of the worse gerrymandering states in the nation. My sister has been a teacher in NC her whole career, and so has one of my best friends. They work their butts off, and what they get paid to enrich the minds of these young people is insulting. The teachers even have to pay for their classroom materials with their own money, which they don't have much of due to their low pay. All that I just said is 100% true, and the teaching profession will remain a turnstile here until they are shown some respect and get paid like other states.

 

[Zow]

Is low pay the problem? My SO does curriculum development and teacher training for preschools. She tells me those teachers are paid very little and there is high turnover.

It varies from state to state id imagine. In the Carolinas and Florida I've heard it stated that pay and fear are key factors. I now live in FL and have many friends in the NC and SC systems.

I'd gently suggest Arizona fits this mold, too. Teachers are paid poorly and are now quitting in significant numbers due to fear of personal liability should they run astray of the parameters put in place (which are more so about what NOT to teach than what to teach).

 

[Instinctive]

I have lots of theories on the problem...this seems like it may be a possible solution if it can scale beyond fancy private schools: https://2hourlearning.com/

 

[rockaction]

I have lots of theories on the problem...this seems like it may be a possible solution if it can scale beyond fancy private schools: https://2hourlearning.com/

In all seriousness, I was learning about ontological theory from Aristotle to Aquinas and through Heidegger in about two days. It would have taken me a semester in college to learn it. I’ve already forgotten it, of course, but I’ve got the notes. Same as school!

 

[Riffraff]

Will be interesting to see the impact AI has on teaching the next few years. I think first reaction is about the technology changing the classroom dynamics but for me it’s less about that and more about an inflow of potential teacher supply as other fields get AI automated out of existence or greatly reduced.

If the teaching AI and the students have the exact same homework essays - verbatim - will that be a pass or a fail?

 

[Max Power]

Back to school day for my two high schoolers and its more of the same as last year. Long term subs and a couple classes where the teacher admitted they wont be their teacher all semester.

Sadly a Google of the situation indicates things are indeed worse than last year.

You live in NC, and should know the reason why we have a teacher shortage. Teacher's pay in NC is very low compared to most other states. NC is one of the lowest in the nation. The Republican controlled legislature has zero respect for the profession. Our last Governor, Cooper, tried really hard to give them a respectable raise, but the legislatures don't feel the same way. They never have. The only way to help the teachers here in this state is to vote out the legislatures that couldn't care less about them, but it's hard to vote them out when NC is one of the worst gerrymandering states in the nation. My sister has been a teacher in NC her whole career, and so has one of my best friends. They work their butts off, and what they get paid to enrich the minds of these young people is insulting. The teachers even have to pay for their classroom materials with their own money, which they don't have much of due to their low pay. All that I just said is 100% true, and the teaching profession will remain a turnstile here until they are shown some respect and get paid like other states.

I agree the legislature is missing the mark when it comes to teacher salaries. I think they only passed a 3% raise recently and have not kept pace with inflation. Clearly making the profession an undesirable one in the state.

The other annoying thing is North Carolina is pounding its chest that its hit record highs graduation rates at 91.3% last year and has been climbing year to year recently. Its like the state is making the argument that it can do more with less, but ultimately these schools are just handing out passing grades. My high school kids rarely have homework and I've seen what they turn in. Both are A/B in every subject. Its grade inflation at its finest.

NC also just rid of its absenteeism failure policy. So no more student failures based on not showing up for class. Not sure how I feel about that one yet, but I'm guessing it bumps the performance stats.

New policy: NC students can no longer fail class solely based on not showing up

North Carolina schools are revising their grading policies to eliminate failing grades solely based on attendance, marking a significant shift in response to rising absenteeism.

www.wral.com

 

[rockaction]

I agree the legislature is missing the mark when it comes to teacher salaries. I think they only passed a 3% raise recently and have not kept pace with inflation. Clearly making the profession an undesirable one in the state.

I looked up your county from the CIA thread. They don't pay starting teachers enough to adequately cover their cost of living. That would be a big impediment to retaining good ones.

I have no idea why I looked it up or cared. Probably because nobody here mentioned cost of living, which I thought would help NC's case. It really doesn't.

 

[InDitkaWeTrust]

I agree the legislature is missing the mark when it comes to teacher salaries. I think they only passed a 3% raise recently and have not kept pace with inflation. Clearly making the profession an undesirable one in the state.

I looked up your county from the CIA thread. They don't pay starting teachers enough to adequately cover their cost of living. That would be a big impediment to retaining good ones.

I have no idea why I looked it up or cared. Probably because nobody here mentioned cost of living, which I thought would help NC's case. It really doesn't.

Most bigger (and wealthier) districts in NC supplement teacher pay because of this pay gap. It leads to a lot of inter district sniping of talent and, as always in NC, the poorer areas get the short end of the stick.

 

[rockaction]

I agree the legislature is missing the mark when it comes to teacher salaries. I think they only passed a 3% raise recently and have not kept pace with inflation. Clearly making the profession an undesirable one in the state.

I looked up your county from the CIA thread. They don't pay starting teachers enough to adequately cover their cost of living. That would be a big impediment to retaining good ones.

I have no idea why I looked it up or cared. Probably because nobody here mentioned cost of living, which I thought would help NC's case. It really doesn't.

Most bigger (and wealthier) districts in NC supplement teacher pay because of this pay gap. It leads to a lot of inter district sniping of talent and, as always in NC, the poorer areas get the short end of the stick.

Thanks. I saw that and didn't know what to make of it. That's too bad. I'm not really commenting either way about it. I just saw simey's post and she's usually pretty reserved and doesn't wade into that stuff very often, but she knows it well.

I knew to look for cost of living because it just makes sense and it turns out that N.C. is bottom ten in salary and adjusted salary. I'm not condemning them because that's not my trip, but it seemed relevant.

I think Max's point is broader than just quality of teaching. He's talking expectations and other stuff.

 

[InDitkaWeTrust]

I agree the legislature is missing the mark when it comes to teacher salaries. I think they only passed a 3% raise recently and have not kept pace with inflation. Clearly making the profession an undesirable one in the state.

I looked up your county from the CIA thread. They don't pay starting teachers enough to adequately cover their cost of living. That would be a big impediment to retaining good ones.

I have no idea why I looked it up or cared. Probably because nobody here mentioned cost of living, which I thought would help NC's case. It really doesn't.

Most bigger (and wealthier) districts in NC supplement teacher pay because of this pay gap. It leads to a lot of inter district sniping of talent and, as always in NC, the poorer areas get the short end of the stick.

Thanks. I saw that and didn't know what to make of it. That's too bad. I'm not really commenting either way about it. I just saw simey's post and she's usually pretty reserved and doesn't wade into that stuff very often, but she knows it well.

I knew to look for cost of living because it just makes sense and it turns out that N.C. is bottom ten in salary and adjusted salary. I'm not condemning them because that's not my trip, but it seemed relevant.

I think Max's point is broader than just quality of teaching. He's talking expectations and other stuff.

Max isn't wrong. The NCGA has been on a tear trying to get metrics for everything possible in the NC public school system. With metrics inevitably comes linking them to job performance. Suddenly, all the pressures of being a classroom teacher get multiplied when your job depends on specific "standard metrics" of your year to year classroom. NC pubic schools are a mess right now and there's a lot of blame to go around, but without competitive salaries, there will always be difficulty recruiting and retaining high performers.

 

[rockaction]

Max isn't wrong.

I don't think he was complaining about the expectations placed upon teachers, which seems to be what the rest of your comment is saying. I mean that he's saying that the school doesn't expect enough of its students.

eta* this could be wildly wrong and he's here to answer, so I'll let him speak.

 

[Max Power]

I agree the legislature is missing the mark when it comes to teacher salaries. I think they only passed a 3% raise recently and have not kept pace with inflation. Clearly making the profession an undesirable one in the state.

I looked up your county from the CIA thread. They don't pay starting teachers enough to adequately cover their cost of living. That would be a big impediment to retaining good ones.

I have no idea why I looked it up or cared. Probably because nobody here mentioned cost of living, which I thought would help NC's case. It really doesn't.

Most bigger (and wealthier) districts in NC supplement teacher pay because of this pay gap. It leads to a lot of inter district sniping of talent and, as always in NC, the poorer areas get the short end of the stick.

Thanks. I saw that and didn't know what to make of it. That's too bad. I'm not really commenting either way about it. I just saw simey's post and she's usually pretty reserved and doesn't wade into that stuff very often, but she knows it well.

I knew to look for cost of living because it just makes sense and it turns out that N.C. is bottom ten in salary and adjusted salary. I'm not condemning them because that's not my trip, but it seemed relevant.

I think Max's point is broader than just quality of teaching. He's talking expectations and other stuff.

I think what bothers me the most is thinking back 30 years ago when I was in school and how much things have changed. It wasn't perfect back then, but there was a sense of stability that kids today don't have. We knew who the teachers were and it was a big deal when a "new" teacher came into the rotation. Teachers had your brothers and sisters in prior years and there was a sense of community in that way.

The current structure and turnover feels so process driven that it's impacting the learning environment. I mean really... first day of school and they are telling kids they won't be their teacher all semester. My daughter commented that she only knows one of her teachers this year. She's only a high school sophomore, so she hasn't had a ton of exposure to the school, but without knowing the actual number it sounds like half the teachers are new this year.

I feel like at the end of the day public schools can not push a good product with the teacher turnover and low pay. They mask it by passing everyone and making it easier to graduate and the reality is that everyone suffers from that. That same school district sent my oldest off to college woefully unprepared for those challenges. Luckily he's a good kid who worked hard and figured it out.

I'll also say its nice to read posts from other posters who aren't facing similar problems. Gives me hope that my state is one of the few outliers and things aren't this bad everywhere.

 

[rockaction]

I agree the legislature is missing the mark when it comes to teacher salaries. I think they only passed a 3% raise recently and have not kept pace with inflation. Clearly making the profession an undesirable one in the state.

I looked up your county from the CIA thread. They don't pay starting teachers enough to adequately cover their cost of living. That would be a big impediment to retaining good ones.

I have no idea why I looked it up or cared. Probably because nobody here mentioned cost of living, which I thought would help NC's case. It really doesn't.

Most bigger (and wealthier) districts in NC supplement teacher pay because of this pay gap. It leads to a lot of inter district sniping of talent and, as always in NC, the poorer areas get the short end of the stick.

Thanks. I saw that and didn't know what to make of it. That's too bad. I'm not really commenting either way about it. I just saw simey's post and she's usually pretty reserved and doesn't wade into that stuff very often, but she knows it well.

I knew to look for cost of living because it just makes sense and it turns out that N.C. is bottom ten in salary and adjusted salary. I'm not condemning them because that's not my trip, but it seemed relevant.

I think Max's point is broader than just quality of teaching. He's talking expectations and other stuff.

I think what bothers me the most is thinking back 30 years ago when I was in school and how much things have changed. It wasn't perfect back then, but there was a sense of stability that kids today don't have. We knew who the teachers were and it was a big deal when a "new" teacher came into the rotation. Teachers had your brothers and sisters in prior years and there was a sense of community in that way.

The current structure and turnover feels so process driven that it's impacting the learning environment. I mean really... first day of school and they are telling kids they won't be their teacher all semester. My daughter commented that she only knows one of her teachers this year. She's only a high school sophomore, so she hasn't had a ton of exposure to the school, but without knowing the actual number it sounds like half the teachers are new this year.

I feel like at the end of the day public schools can not push a good product with the teacher turnover and low pay. They mask it by passing everyone and making it easier to graduate and the reality is that everyone suffers from that. That same school district sent my oldest off to college woefully unprepared for those challenges. Luckily he's a good kid who worked hard and figured it out.

I'll also say its nice to read posts from other posters who aren't facing similar problems. Gives me hope that my state is one of the few outliers and things aren't this bad everywhere.

I live in California and my brother is a teacher that constantly beats projections for tests and is a very good teacher by almost all accounts. I'm not sure that kids are really prepared from what I'm hearing about them at the collegiate level. It's said that the English majors can barely read novels. It doesn't sound good, but I could just be getting old.

 

[Brunell4MVP]

Is there a solution of having less teachers, but paying them more? So you get better quality. We are in one of the top school districts in the country. It's got about a 13:1 student teacher ratio. But the Chinese schools are about 16:1 ratio. In my head my math shows that in a 2000 person high school, that takes away about 25 teachers. And equate to ~20% raise for the teachers that are kept. I'd also argue the teacher unions protecting some teachers that have lost their relevance. Having 2 kids go through HS and college, there was definitely a drop off in the quality of teaching with the ones that had done it a long time. It's like many industries (ie govt)... you can't cut the fluff because of tenure.

 

[Max Power]

I agree the legislature is missing the mark when it comes to teacher salaries. I think they only passed a 3% raise recently and have not kept pace with inflation. Clearly making the profession an undesirable one in the state.

I looked up your county from the CIA thread. They don't pay starting teachers enough to adequately cover their cost of living. That would be a big impediment to retaining good ones.

I have no idea why I looked it up or cared. Probably because nobody here mentioned cost of living, which I thought would help NC's case. It really doesn't.

Most bigger (and wealthier) districts in NC supplement teacher pay because of this pay gap. It leads to a lot of inter district sniping of talent and, as always in NC, the poorer areas get the short end of the stick.

Thanks. I saw that and didn't know what to make of it. That's too bad. I'm not really commenting either way about it. I just saw simey's post and she's usually pretty reserved and doesn't wade into that stuff very often, but she knows it well.

I knew to look for cost of living because it just makes sense and it turns out that N.C. is bottom ten in salary and adjusted salary. I'm not condemning them because that's not my trip, but it seemed relevant.

I think Max's point is broader than just quality of teaching. He's talking expectations and other stuff.

I think what bothers me the most is thinking back 30 years ago when I was in school and how much things have changed. It wasn't perfect back then, but there was a sense of stability that kids today don't have. We knew who the teachers were and it was a big deal when a "new" teacher came into the rotation. Teachers had your brothers and sisters in prior years and there was a sense of community in that way.

The current structure and turnover feels so process driven that it's impacting the learning environment. I mean really... first day of school and they are telling kids they won't be their teacher all semester. My daughter commented that she only knows one of her teachers this year. She's only a high school sophomore, so she hasn't had a ton of exposure to the school, but without knowing the actual number it sounds like half the teachers are new this year.

I feel like at the end of the day public schools can not push a good product with the teacher turnover and low pay. They mask it by passing everyone and making it easier to graduate and the reality is that everyone suffers from that. That same school district sent my oldest off to college woefully unprepared for those challenges. Luckily he's a good kid who worked hard and figured it out.

I'll also say its nice to read posts from other posters who aren't facing similar problems. Gives me hope that my state is one of the few outliers and things aren't this bad everywhere.

I live in California and my brother is a teacher that constantly beats projections for tests and is a very good teacher by almost all accounts. I'm not sure that kids are really prepared from what I'm hearing about them at the collegiate level. It's said that the English majors can barely read novels. It doesn't sound good, but I could just be getting old.

That was an insane story. Columbia university none the less.

It just feels like that is way our society is trending. Kids think... Why read a whole book or chapter when there are multiple ways to find the answer quicker and easier. They might have the right answer on paper, but do they comprehend it?

 

[rockaction]

That was an insane story. Columbia university none the less.

Are you talking about the one in The Atlantic? Or the one about Dickens?

 

[InDitkaWeTrust]

Max isn't wrong.

I don't think he was complaining about the expectations placed upon teachers, which seems to be what the rest of your comment is saying. I mean that he's saying that the school doesn't expect enough of its students.

eta* this could be wildly wrong and he's here to answer, so I'll let him speak.

Right. I think in my head the point was that as expectations for teachers go up and are tied to job performance, expectations for students will inevitably go down. Sorry, was typing that out pre-coffee this AM.

 

[Max Power]

That was an insane story. Columbia university none the less.

Are you talking about the one in The Atlantic? Or the one about Dickens?

Looks like it was initially run on The Atlantic, but I think I read about it on Yahoo covering their story.