The Vikings offseason = effing Trainwreck (1 Viewer)

[BigJim®]

BigJim,

To BlueOnion's credit, Red McCombs is a smart business man! However, most fans aren't as concerned with having a "smart business man" at the healm as they are with wins, division titles and Super Bowl titles. We all don't have to foot the bill to make those things happen though.....

That said, McCombs is going to come out something like $350-$400 million ahead in his investment since he bought the team. One has to wonder though whether a $250-$300 million profit and a couple Super Bowl appearances would have been more rewarding for the Texas mutli-millionaire....since you can't take the money with you in the end. (?)

(1) It is possible to be both a smart businessman and an incredibly bad NFL owner; It is also possible to be both a smart businessman and an incredibly good NFL owner.(2) All owners "foot the bill" in the NFL and there are no owners filing for bankruptcy. My guess is, being guarantied some level of profitability, most NFL owners place championship aspirations ahead of maximizing profits, and this is what has made the NFL great. Let's face it, they needed a cap because these guys can't stop themselves from writing checks... the existing salary cap is a mechanism based upon spending a percentage of revenues, and that percentage guaranties profit to all. But not ol' Red, he's the NFLPA's posterchild for why a minimum cap was needed. Red could not have lost money owning this team if he put every ounce of energy in his being into it.

I'm done with this topic. I hope Red is gone sooner rather than later but I highly doubt it. Fowler will fall through, coaches will be extended a year, and the Vikes will again target minimum cap spend.

 

[BlueOnion]

I'm done with this topic. I hope Red is gone sooner rather than later but I highly doubt it. Fowler will fall through, coaches will be extended a year, and the Vikes will again target minimum cap spend.

I hope Red is gone too, and quickly. But it seems so ironic that people are willing to jump on Red McCombs for 16 million of unspent salary cap space, but give Glen Taylor a free pass everytime he comes up a few dollars short to buy the team.

 

[BigJim®]

I'm done with this topic. I hope Red is gone sooner rather than later but I highly doubt it. Fowler will fall through, coaches will be extended a year, and the Vikes will again target minimum cap spend.

I hope Red is gone too, and quickly. But it seems so ironic that people are willing to jump on Red McCombs for 16 million of unspent salary cap space, but give Glen Taylor a free pass everytime he comes up a few dollars short to buy the team.

From a Vikings perspective, I've ripped Taylor repeatedly on Purple Thoughts because the man has never made a firm offer and he deserves no kudos in trying to vulture a blue light special out of this nightmare. If Red sells to him, which I highly doubt based on his last <cough, cough> offer, he may in retrospect have negotiated well. Taylor would unquestionably spend more like other NFL owners do if his NBA spending is a reflection... he's paid the luxury tax willingly year after year exceeding the cap in this middle-market.

 

[Bull Dozier]

Blue Onion, being $30 million under the cap and arranging lame duck coaches for a new owner should not be the objective of an NFL owner. And for the love of god, don't type all that and forget to mention that Red has benefitted financially for each and every cheap maneuver you've mentioned during this 3-year sale "search." My goodness, this guy is walking away with $20 mil a year, on top of what should be a $300 million investment profit, and yet he voluntarily fields an undercompetitive product for you, the fan of his team. Reading your posts I could swear you're looking to get a bronze of his likeness for your den. I'm sorry, I just do not understand you're appreciation. Red McCombs has no place in the NFL and he very well may be owner a lot longer than you are contemplating.

I now get the impression my typing is the digital replication of nails on a chalkboard to you. :rotflmao: I apologize for that.You make some great points, the $20 million he saves each season doesn't bother me that much. If you really want to get my goat you need to point out the following:

Red McCombs bought the team for about 265 million, owned it for 7 years at which point he decided to sell it for 625 million, thus netting him 365 million. Or better yet, the Vikings appreciated 365 million and the Vikings now need a new stadium...for which that 365 million would be very useful. Unfortunately that 365 million is headed to San Antonio. But McCombs is not the bad guy here, it is people like Glenn Taylor who don't pony up the money to keep the team and money local to the State.

But hey, it takes money to make money and a part of me is grateful for Red McCombs making 1998 such a special year (although it was very dissapointing). But the man is a business man, not a Viking fan and I have never lost sight of this.

But as long as Minnesota is not in a position where they have to rebuild for 3 or 5 years, I can live with 'hope'.

Who's thoughts are those in the italicized portion of that last post? Is that a quote, or your own thoughts you want emphasized.

 

[Bull Dozier]

I'm done with this topic. I hope Red is gone sooner rather than later but I highly doubt it. Fowler will fall through, coaches will be extended a year, and the Vikes will again target minimum cap spend.

I hope Red is gone too, and quickly. But it seems so ironic that people are willing to jump on Red McCombs for 16 million of unspent salary cap space, but give Glen Taylor a free pass everytime he comes up a few dollars short to buy the team.

From a Vikings perspective, I've ripped Taylor repeatedly on Purple Thoughts because the man has never made a firm offer and he deserves no kudos in trying to vulture a blue light special out of this nightmare. If Red sells to him, which I highly doubt based on his last <cough, cough> offer, he may in retrospect have negotiated well. Taylor would unquestionably spend more like other NFL owners do if his NBA spending is a reflection... he's paid the luxury tax willingly year after year exceeding the cap in this middle-market.

Just about everything I've read is that the proposed sale price of $625 million is the value of the Vikings, if they had a new stadium deal. The value of the Vikings currently, with their Dome lease, and no new stadium is $150-200 million less than that. Why should Taylor pony the cash up for the value of a new stadium when there is no new stadium. If Taylor buys the Vikings, and he gets a new stadium built through his connections in the legislature, then why should Red profit from that? It doesn't make sense to me to vilify Taylor in this situation.

 

[BlueOnion]

Who's thoughts are those in the italicized portion of that last post? Is that a quote, or your own thoughts you want emphasized.

Nobody's thoughts. Just that the Vikings (as a franchise) has appreciated about 365 million and instead of that money being re-invested into the franchise (stadium), it is going to San Antonio.

 

[Bull Dozier]

Who's thoughts are those in the italicized portion of that last post?  Is that a quote, or your own thoughts you want emphasized.

Nobody's thoughts. Just that the Vikings (as a franchise) has appreciated about 365 million and instead of that money being re-invested into the franchise (stadium), it is going to San Antonio.

I'm just curious as to whom the rediculous comments that Glenn Taylor is the bag guy in this situation should be credited to.

 

[BlueOnion]

Just about everything I've read is that the proposed sale price of $625 million is the value of the Vikings, if they had a new stadium deal. The value of the Vikings currently, with their Dome lease, and no new stadium is $150-200 million less than that. Why should Taylor pony the cash up for the value of a new stadium when there is no new stadium. If Taylor buys the Vikings, and he gets a new stadium built through his connections in the legislature, then why should Red profit from that? It doesn't make sense to me to vilify Taylor in this situation.

Taylor is just as cheap as Red...Sure Red could spend a little bit more on free agency, but what is stopping Taylor from spending a few extra dollars to get the Vikings? He is just as cheap.

 

[Bull Dozier]

Just about everything I've read is that the proposed sale price of $625 million is the value of the Vikings, if they had a new stadium deal.  The value of the Vikings currently, with their Dome lease, and no new stadium is $150-200 million less than that.  Why should Taylor pony the cash up for the value of a new stadium when there is no new stadium.  If Taylor buys the Vikings, and he gets a new stadium built through his connections in the legislature, then why should Red profit from that?  It doesn't make sense to me to vilify Taylor in this situation.

Taylor is just as cheap as Red...Sure Red could spend a little bit more on free agency, but what is stopping Taylor from spending a few extra dollars to get the Vikings? He is just as cheap.

That's absolutely rediculous. After the contracts Garnett got, and the "illegal" Joe Smith contract, I don't see how you can call taylor cheap. You think that because he is a self made Billionaire who enjoys owning sports franchises, he owes some debt to the public to buy the Vikes so he can keep them in town? If $625 was such a fair price for the Vikes, why is the only person intent on buying at the price a questionable character such as Fowler? What does Forbes put at the latest current value of the Vikings? Why should Taylor spend significantly over that amount? Just cause Red says so? Utterly rediculous.

 

[BlueOnion]

That's absolutely rediculous. After the contracts Garnett got, and the "illegal" Joe Smith contract, I don't see how you can call taylor cheap. You think that because he is a self made Billionaire who enjoys owning sports franchises, he owes some debt to the public to buy the Vikes so he can keep them in town? If $625 was such a fair price for the Vikes, why is the only person intent on buying at the price a questionable character such as Fowler? What does Forbes put at the latest current value of the Vikings? Why should Taylor spend significantly over that amount? Just cause Red says so? Utterly rediculous.

I love Glenn Taylor and want him to buy the Vikings (in a big way), but if you are going to jump on Red's case for how he spends his money, be sure to hold Glenn Taylor's feet to same fire.For a few more bucks (40 million) he could have outbid Clancy, (80 million) Red McCombs and (200 million) Reggie Fowler.

Personally, I hold them both to the same standard.

 

[Bull Dozier]

That's absolutely rediculous.  After the contracts Garnett got, and the "illegal" Joe Smith contract, I don't see how you can call taylor cheap.  You think that because he is a self made Billionaire who enjoys owning sports franchises, he owes some debt to the public to buy the Vikes so he can keep them in town?  If $625 was such a fair price for the Vikes, why is the only person intent on buying at the price a questionable character such as Fowler?  What does Forbes put at the latest current value of the Vikings?  Why should Taylor spend significantly over that amount?  Just cause Red says so?  Utterly rediculous.

I love Glenn Taylor and want him to buy the Vikings (in a big way), but if you are going to jump on Red's case for how he spends his money, be sure to hold Glenn Taylor's feet to same fire.For a few more bucks (40 million) he could have outbid Clancy, (80 million) Red McCombs and (200 million) Reggie Fowler.

Personally, I hold them both to the same standard.

I don't hold them to the same standard. Red owes something because as a ticket buyer, I have a right to demand he spend the money I give him on talent. He hasn't spent the money as I agree with, so I no longer buy tickets. That's my right not to buy tickets for a product I don't agree with, but I acknowledge it is his right not to spend the money. At least there is a connection to my desires and Red's actions. There's no connection to me and Taylor. Why should I, or anyone else, have anything to say how he spends his money for a franchise? I haven't given him any money? Why can I demand how he spends it? He has obviously proven that once he owns a franchise he will spend what he can to make it competitive. Once I start buying Vikings tickets from Taylor, I have a right to say something about how he spends his income. That's the way I look at it anyway.

 

[BigJim®]

That's absolutely rediculous.  After the contracts Garnett got, and the "illegal" Joe Smith contract, I don't see how you can call taylor cheap.  You think that because he is a self made Billionaire who enjoys owning sports franchises, he owes some debt to the public to buy the Vikes so he can keep them in town?  If $625 was such a fair price for the Vikes, why is the only person intent on buying at the price a questionable character such as Fowler?  What does Forbes put at the latest current value of the Vikings?  Why should Taylor spend significantly over that amount?  Just cause Red says so?  Utterly rediculous.

I love Glenn Taylor and want him to buy the Vikings (in a big way), but if you are going to jump on Red's case for how he spends his money, be sure to hold Glenn Taylor's feet to same fire.For a few more bucks (40 million) he could have outbid Clancy, (80 million) Red McCombs and (200 million) Reggie Fowler.

Personally, I hold them both to the same standard.

I'm with BD on this, while I'm not jumping cartwheels over Taylor's uninspiring drive to become the next owner, what the heck "standard" are you holding a non-owner to? He's obligated to pay $625 million for a team, to save everybody from Red? Really? IMHO a non-owner like Taylor is not even worth discussing. I'm fairly confident Taylor doesn't owe Viking fans jack squat unless/until he buys the team. Blue Onion, you strike me as being frustrated to the point of irrationality. Red McCombs is running this team into the ground and Glen Taylor is one of approximately 8 Billion earth inhabitants who has nothing to do with that and is under no obligation to stop it. He's already stated he does not feel the Vikes are worth what Fowler offered, and until the team gets sold, it isn't.

 

[Steve in Minneapolis]

I'm with BD on this, while I'm not jumping cartwheels over Taylor's uninspiring drive to become the next owner, what the heck "standard" are you holding a non-owner to? He's obligated to pay $625 million for a team, to save everybody from Red? Really? IMHO a non-owner like Taylor is not even worth discussing. I'm fairly confident Taylor doesn't owe Viking fans jack squat unless/until he buys the team. Blue Onion, you strike me as being frustrated to the point of irrationality. Red McCombs is running this team into the ground and Glen Taylor is one of approximately 8 Billion earth inhabitants who has nothing to do with that and is under no obligation to stop it. He's already stated he does not feel the Vikes are worth what Fowler offered, and until the team gets sold, it isn't.



I totally agree... I am bewildered at the people who are 'pissed' at Taylor for not 'stepping up' to buy the Vikes. He has stated very clearly for years that he doesn't think they are worth Red's asking price.

It's his money, let him decide how he wants to spend it...

 

[BlueOnion]

I am certainly not 'pissed' at Glenn Taylor. I was originally making the point that, although I am not enamored with Red McCombs, I do hold him to the standard of being a 'business man' and not a 'Homer Billionaire'. And I also hold Glen Taylor to the same standard; neither of which I am 'pissed' at. However, if people are going to judge McCombs as a 'Viking Rah-Rah fan' first, business man second...they should hold Taylor to the same degree.Taylor's actions so far has shown that he has no love for the Vikings, just his own money...which makes him no better off than McCombs at this time. If others want to disagree with me I am comfortable with that. But currently speaking I don't like McCombs but I don't see a better alternative.

 

[Bull Dozier]

I am certainly not 'pissed' at Glenn Taylor. I was originally making the point that, although I am not enamored with Red McCombs, I do hold him to the standard of being a 'business man' and not a 'Homer Billionaire'. And I also hold Glen Taylor to the same standard; neither of which I am 'pissed' at. However, if people are going to judge McCombs as a 'Viking Rah-Rah fan' first, business man second...they should hold Taylor to the same degree.

Taylor's actions so far has shown that he has no love for the Vikings, just his own money...which makes him no better off than McCombs at this time. If others want to disagree with me I am comfortable with that. But currently speaking I don't like McCombs but I don't see a better alternative.

Don't get me wrong, I do see the point you are trying to make. However, I just disagree. If Taylor buys the team, I'd hold him to the same standard as I hold Red now. But until he buys the team, he's just another one of the many billionaires that don't own the Vikings. Also, even if he is a die hard Vikings fan, that doesn't require him to pay an overinflated price to another billionaire to buy the team. He didn't become a billionaire by giving other billionaire $200,000,000 for nothing in return (ie, the overpayment he would make on the franchise without a stadium). Once he owns the team, since the team is profitable, he'd owe it to the fans to spend as much as he can to make the team competitive.I don't see how you can hold Taylor to the same standard as Red. If Red was offering the team for a fair price, then by all means. But Red is artificially jacking up the price, and just trying to get every last dime out of the team. He wants money for nothing.

 

[BlueOnion]

I don't see how you can hold Taylor to the same standard as Red. If Red was offering the team for a fair price, then by all means. But Red is artificially jacking up the price, and just trying to get every last dime out of the team. He wants money for nothing.

Well I do hold Taylor and McCombs to the same standard in regards that they are both billionaires who want to make money and have no real vested interest in how well the Vikings do. I am also not that unhappy with McCombs and I am also not that unhappy with Taylor's feeble efforts to buy the Vikings; their both just trying to make a quick buck. Anybody who is telling themselves that McCombs is one of the worse owners in the league and that anybody (Taylor) could do better is sadly mistaken in my eyes.On McCombs' behalf, he spent a lot of his own money back in 1998 to give Minnesota a legit shot at the Superbowl. So if McCombs wanted to be the long term owner of the Vikings and see them win a Superbowl, he would spend more money than he currently is. I just believe that McCombs knows he cannot get any help building a stadium and he does not want to lock up so much of his own money for the next four or six years to build a stadium of his own. The man is old and could pass away in the next 4 or 6 years. Why would he want to spend those years with most of him money tied to a stadium he very well may never see? At which point, it makes sense to me that McCombs minimizes the costs and avoid locking the Vikings into a long term direction (coach's salaries and big time free agent signings). He has also exhausted himself trying to get a new stadium, for which I thank him for trying and thank him for recognizing he cannot get it done and getting out of the ownership of the Vikings.

But I think McCombs has no problem with long term investments; Winfield for example. I also suspect he will fork over another 10 to 12 million in guarantee money in the coming weeks if Bryzinski finds a(couple) young free agent that can help the club for 5 to 7 years while maintaining their healthy salary cap number.

 

[BigJim®]

Taylor's actions so far has shown that he has no love for the Vikings, just his own money...which makes him no better off than McCombs at this time. If others want to disagree with me I am comfortable with that. But currently speaking I don't like McCombs but I don't see a better alternative.

This is where BD and I go our separate ways. I don't see at all what you are trying to say. "Taylor has shown no love for the Vikings, just his own money... which makes him no better than McCombs." That's asinine and there's no other way to look at it. Taylor has refused to pay over his valuation of the team. He has not chosen to make his team less competitive than other NFL teams. He hasn't replaced key coaching openings with OL coaches without any sort of search process to find eligible candidates. He didn't fail to hire a GM. He didn't choose not to spend a red cent over electricity to operate and improve the team HE PERSONALLY OWNS. You may be sick and tired of people presuming Taylor to be a savior based solely on how he operates the TWolves, and I'll grant you that, but there is absolutely nothing to substantiate that Taylor "is no better than McCombs" merely because he won't burn $125,000,000 as some showing of purple frenzy. I will say it's my opinion that McCombs is the exception to normal professional sports ownership and a guy like Taylor is far more likely to run a structured and competitive professional franchise, as he does owning the Wolves.

 

[BlueOnion]

I will say it's my opinion that McCombs is the exception to normal professional sports ownership and a guy like Taylor is far more likely to run a structured and competitive professional franchise, as he does owning the Wolves.

Because you acknowledge this is purely speculation, I cannot disagree with you. But Taylor has consistently come up short in buying the Vikings because he is not willing to spend a few extra bucks that would require him to buy the Vikings. And I am talking about the Vikings; an NFL franchise. One of the most lucrative products a billionaire could invest in.And lets be honest, Taylor has acknowledged that the Vikings are worth 600 million because that is what he offered McCombs after he agreed to sell the team to Fowler.

I also think it is unfair to compare how Taylor runs the T-Pups to how McCombs runs the Vikings today. McCombs is not trying to build the Vikings today, he is liquadating the team to make them more attractive to potential suitors and not handcuff the next owner with long term coach and player contracts. A better comparison would be to compare McCombs spending in 1998 when he expected to be the owner for many years and had a competitive team.

 

[BlueOnion]

BigJim -It almost sounds like you would prefer the Vikings to lock themselves into a long-expensive contracts with Mike Tice, Scott Linehan and company right before new ownership comes in and higher new general managers who will higher new head coaches. That makes no sense.And consequently, when new ownership comes in and have to buy out the contracts of the coaches they did not hire to hire the coaches they wanted...this alone adds a year to the rebuildling process.Not to exclude any big name free-agents the Vikings would sign this year only to potentially release next year because they are not part of the 'new regimes' choice of guys. At which point we could pontentially be sitting on a lot of dead money.

 

[BigJim®]

Because you acknowledge this is purely speculation, I cannot disagree with you.  But Taylor has consistently come up short in buying the Vikings because he is not willing to spend a few extra bucks that would require him to buy the Vikings.

Taylor has come up short buying the Vikings one time to date, not "consitently." $125,000,000 which is the amount Taylor effectively offered in his last offer ($500,000,000 now, $100,000,000 after a stadium is funded) is not "a few bucks."

And I am talking about the Vikings; an NFL franchise.  One of the most lucrative products a billionaire could invest in.

This is true based upon significant assumptions. The first assumption is that TV and other NFL created revenues continue to escallate rather than plateau. The second huge assumption is that an investor is not giving up $125,000,000 in "investment" up front, as Taylor believes he is.

And lets be honest, Taylor has acknowledged that the Vikings are worth 600 million because that is what he offered McCombs after he agreed to sell the team to Fowler.

That's not being honest, that is making up facts. Being honest is looking at Taylor's last offer that he will get $600,000,000 to Red if and when the full $600,000,000 is owed; namely after the stadium is built. His two last offers were $400,000,000 now and $200,000,000 later or $500,000,000 now and $100,000,000 later. That is by no means an acknowledgement that the team is currently worth $600,000,000. Technically, it contradicts it.

I also think it is unfair to compare how Taylor runs the T-Pups to how McCombs runs the Vikings today.  McCombs is not trying to build the Vikings today, he is liquadating the team to make them more attractive to potential suitors and not handcuff the next owner with long term coach and player contracts.  A better comparison would be to compare McCombs spending in 1998 when he expected to be the owner for many years and had a competitive team.

Please. Anyone who truly believes this team is "more attractive" to serious buyers due to the mess it is in doesn't have the capacity to understand what really is going on here. It's the first time a pro sports franchise was up for sale that I can even recall this type of "sale preparation" occuring which oh by the way saves the existing owner a great deal of cash. How nice of Red to be so accommodating.

 

[BlueOnion]

Taylor came up a few bucks short to Clancy, to McCombs and now Fowler. If Taylor says he will pay 400 million now and 200 million when a stadium is built...how is that not meeting McCombs' asking price of 600 million?What is this 'mess' you speak of? I would hardly describe Minnesota has being a mess. Miami is a mess and Tampa is a mess.

 

[reg]

Taylor came up a few bucks short to Clancy, to McCombs and now Fowler.

If Taylor says he will pay 400 million now and 200 million when a stadium is built...how is that not meeting McCombs' asking price of 600 million?

What is this 'mess' you speak of? I would hardly describe Minnesota has being a mess. Miami is a mess and Tampa is a mess.

It was discussed before. 200 mill in about 5 years (if/when a stadium is built) is equal to around 150 mill, due to inflation and whatnot.

 

[BigJim®]

BigJim -

It almost sounds like you would prefer the Vikings to lock themselves into a long-expensive contracts with Mike Tice, Scott Linehan and company right before new ownership comes in and higher new general managers who will higher new head coaches. That makes no sense.

And consequently, when new ownership comes in and have to buy out the contracts of the coaches they did not hire to hire the coaches they wanted...this alone adds a year to the rebuildling process.

Not to exclude any big name free-agents the Vikings would sign this year only to potentially release next year because they are not part of the 'new regimes' choice of guys. At which point we could pontentially be sitting on a lot of dead money.

You're brainwashed; that's all there is to say. You have fully bought into the fact that Red is being accommodating when the bottom line is the sole result of reduced liabilities is higher purchase price, which will eventually be Red's. What Red is doing is creating arguments for why a buyer should pay $600,000,000 for this franchise instead of the $575,000,000 they may want to pay if there are a bunch of liabilities they might be assuming. Isn't that fairly obvious?

But since you raised the issue of what I think Red should do, my expectation as a Viking fan is that the owner hires a football-minded GM, who in turn makes critical yet informed decisions on coaching and front office staff, which make key personnel decisions using the existing salary cap. The wrong coaches are going to be hired from time to time and the wrong FA will be signed from time to time, but the structure and decision makers would be in place to reduce those occurences. Whether that means Tice stays or goes, or Linehan stays or goes is beyond my opinion. A new Owner should assume that infrastructure is in place.

 

[BigJim®]

Taylor came up a few bucks short to Clancy, to McCombs and now Fowler. 

Please what "a few bucks" was vs. Clancy. He categorically did not come up a few bucks short to Fowler, who he bid at least $125,000,000 less than, and who is not yet a winning bidder, something Taylor has perhaps known all along.

If Taylor says he will pay 400 million now and 200 million when a stadium is built...how is that not meeting McCombs' asking price of 600 million?

Please, this is basic math. Saying he is guaranteeing only $400,000,000 based upon no stadium solution is a $400,000,000 offer. If no stadium is built, and perhaps contingent upon what money Taylor himself needs to contribute to that stadium (depending on how the concept is worded contractually), that is all Red would be guaranteed to see. Common sense tells me the $200,000,000 supplemental payment would be reduced by whatever amount Taylor is required to pay for the stadium solution... which would coincide with Taylor's stated reason for not valuing the team today as if it already has a stadium solution.... he has said an owner can't pay that amount and then pay $175,000,000 down the road toward a stadium solution.

What is this 'mess' you speak of?  I would hardly describe Minnesota has being a mess.  Miami is a mess and Tampa is a mess.

 

[BlueOnion]

It was discussed before.  200 mill in about 5 years (if/when a stadium is built) is equal to around 150 mill, due to inflation and whatnot.

Thanks Reg, though I am not sure you are arguing my point or BigJim's point. Please expand, I put value in what you post in regards to the Vikings.* disclaimer - I also put value on BigJim's, but we are not seeing eye to eye on this, though hopefully Reg will help.

I think Taylor and McCombs are on board as far as the Vikings' net worth. About 400 million. However, the discrepency is the the implied value the Vikings have will the impending Metrodome lease (and Rozelle letter) expiring. Kind of like debating the value of a 400K house and the value of the location given the likelyhood (or lack there of...) of a proposed train\subway station being built.

The Vikings' stadium situation, and the implied value of others

1) The NFL has stepped up and offered some financial help in the Vikings getting a stadium built in the state of Minnesota. Unfortunately McCombs gets credit for some of this being the NFL made such jestures during his tenure. Like or not (I don't), McCombs gets credit for this but how much value can one place on the NFL's financial committment? I don't know.

2) I am not going to sit here and say the State has promised anything of late, but I believe there is enough evidence that the State is going to offer something...maybe 50 million, maybe 100 million maybe 350 million (<--- joke, please laugh at 350 million). How much are these implied monies worth? I don't know either.

3) The metrodome lease is up in 2011, that makes 2008 a legit year for whoever owns the Vikings to serious explore relocation...which will be extremely lucractive. History shows that a future NFL city (not saying LA, just any city) will be willing to pay upwards of 500 million to whoever the owner is to relocate the franchise. How much are these implied monies worth? I don't know either.

McCombs thinks the total package (Vikings & future impending Stadium offerings) is worth somewhere between 600 and 650 million.

Taylor thinks the total package (Vikings & future impending Stadium offerings) is worth about 600 million, more clearly 400 million for the Vikings and 200 million for the impending stadium offerings.

Fowler thinks...well I don't know actually. This guy seems like he is well over his head...or maybe he isn't. If I had to speculate on Fowler though, this is what I believe he is thinking. The Vikings are worth 400ish million, but the real value will be the 500+ million a new city will offer me to relocate the team. Something I can serious start entertaining in three years. Lets be honest, the guy has a net worth of 450 million (which is probably optimistic) and is paying (with help) a 625 million for a franchise. Operating costs, free agents and other expenditures...PUH-LEEZ. And to expect a stadium funding to be secured in three years...its a pipe dream. Fowler has his eyes on the relocation payday, period.

 

[reg]

It was discussed before.  200 mill in about 5 years (if/when a stadium is built) is equal to around 150 mill, due to inflation and whatnot.

Thanks Reg, though I am not sure you are arguing my point or BigJim's point. Please expand, I put value in what you post in regards to the Vikings.

Not really arguing either side, you both make good points. I was just pointing out that his offer is closer to 550 mill than it is 600 mill, just depends on how you want to look at it.Big Jim: http://spokesman-recorder.com/news/Article...ID=14874&sID=42 from 2002.

Taylor recently said if he knew McCombs had bid $30 million more he would have bought the team.

And that is what happened -- that's why McCombs has the team...

 

[reg]

Fowler thinks...well I don't know actually. This guy seems like he is well over his head...or maybe he isn't. If I had to speculate on Fowler though, this is what I believe he is thinking. The Vikings are worth 400ish million, but the real value will be the 500+ million a new city will offer me to relocate the team. Something I can serious start entertaining in three years. Lets be honest, the guy has a net worth of 450 million (which is probably optimistic) and is paying (with help) a 625 million for a franchise. Operating costs, free agents and other expenditures...PUH-LEEZ. And to expect a stadium funding to be secured in three years...its a pipe dream. Fowler has his eyes on the relocation payday, period.

Why is it that people think that only Fowler will be the one spending money on the team, as opposed to him AND his partners?

 

[BlueOnion]

Fowler thinks...well I don't know actually.  This guy seems like he is well over his head...or maybe he isn't.  If I had to speculate on Fowler though, this is what I believe he is thinking.  The Vikings are worth 400ish million, but the real value will be the 500+ million a new city will offer me to relocate the team.  Something I can serious start entertaining in three years.  Lets be honest, the guy has a net worth of 450 million (which is probably optimistic) and is paying (with help) a 625 million for a franchise.  Operating costs, free agents and other expenditures...PUH-LEEZ.  And to expect a stadium funding to be secured in three years...its a pipe dream.  Fowler has his eyes on the relocation payday, period.

Why is it that people think that only Fowler will be the one spending money on the team, as opposed to him AND his partners?

A) I don't think his partners are as gung-oh about winning as many people think. I cannot get confirmation who is partners are or how much each partner is investing but I strongly suspect one of the big ones is Landis...the old owner of the New Jersey Nets. I am not sure if I need to go on (Nets? don't make me start), but I still believe the reality is that the Vikings are 3 years away from hitting paydirt as far as negogiating relocation fees.b) In addition, any money the other investors put in, Fowler has to put up 30% of. Its not like the other owners are going to say, "We'll spent 90% of the cost for the stadium, but we will only expect 70% of the return...consider the other 20% a donation for being such a good guy." Basically that 20% will have to go outside the Vikings' ownership (or organization) or else Fowler's ownership slips lower than 30%.

*** Keep in mind, Landis was the owner of the Nets who charged outrageous prices for lowly Nets ticket (while sucked for so long) and after their first winning season he doubled (or was tripled) ticket prices.

 

[pigskin pimp]

FWIW:I was listening to KFAN last week (a day after the Vike's Moss deal came out), and Glen Taylor was on with Chad Hartman.Now I don't have a link, but I'll share what I remember from the interview. Basically, Glen told Chad he's just going to sit back and wait and see how the Fowler pruchase goes, he doesn't like the Vikings at that selling price. He's willing to negotiate if the Fowler purchase doesn't work out. But what caught my ear was he talked about Red's purchase, when Clancy and Taylor were also bidding for the Vikings.Taylor stated that he had $50 million on the side to purchase the Vikings that year, in case he needed to improve his offer. Red swooped in and purchased the Vikings before he could up his offer. The Viking's board took Red's offer before getting back to Taylor. The $50M Taylor had in reserve (ontop of his bidding price) would have been more than Red's buying price. Taylor thought that the board would re-open the negotations after the Clancy debauchle. As a business man, I can understand trying to stretch a dollar. But lowballing back then cost him the opportunity to own the Vikings. If only he put that $50M in play back then, Minnesotans would never have to rant about Red, as Taylor would own the Vikings. As Minnesotans love Minnesota people, we would also probably be in the process of building a stadium right now. Instead, Taylor would have to pony up a lot more dough for ownership today, if he didn't low ball back in the day. Karma?

 

[BlueOnion]

I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea here and think I am throwing Taylor under the bus. I like Taylor and really want him to purchase the team...I will go as far as Minnesota fans almost need him to buy the team. However, I understand Taylor is a business man first, a sports fan second. And I have the same perception of McCombs. McCombs has been forthcoming with trying to sell the team and how much he is asking. I will be the first to acknowledge his price is probably a little high, but that is the benefit of owning such a lucractive product such as an NFL franchise.Taylor, being the business man that he is has continued to try and acquire the Vikings will low-ball offers. I am not angry at him for being a business man first and likewise I am not angry at McCombs for being a business man first. If McCombs was to be adament about owning the Vikings (see the Bidwells) and continually roll out a team with the lowest payroll possible, I would then be angry (aka...buy players or sell the team Mr. Owner). But McCombs has not done this, so I am not going to throw him under the bus.

 

[BigJim®]

Big Jim: http://spokesman-recorder.com/news/Article...ID=14874&sID=42 from 2002.

Taylor recently said if he knew McCombs had bid $30 million more he would have bought the team.

And that is what happened -- that's why McCombs has the team...

Thanks Reg, I know Taylor was outbid by McCombs... my point was the reference to "consistently outbid by a few bucks." I wasn't aware of how much Taylor underbid Clancy but I doubted it was by a few bucks. He clearly did lose out to McCombs, largely because he relied on friendly insiders to grant him what would essentially be a right of first refusal/counteroffer opportunity which never came.

 

[BlueOnion]

Well it looks like BigJim and I agree to disagree, which is probably for the best. We should carry on, join hands and pray Minnesota can get their draft pick in on time this year.Or we can decide to pull together and bash Fowler until he gives up this charade and let Taylor buy the team.Anybody willing to defend Fowler (Reg???)?

 

[Bull Dozier]

Anybody willing to defend Fowler (Reg???)?

I hear he was a good little league ball player.

 

[whole-show]

Anybody willing to defend Fowler (Reg???)?

I hear he was a good little league ball player.

:rotflmao: :rotflmao:

 

[BlueOnion]

Why is it that people think that only Fowler will be the one spending money on the team, as opposed to him AND his partners?

I have been doing some thinking about this.I figure there are only two reasons a billionaire would buy an NFL franchise; for money or for ego. Because Fowler's backers actually have more money than him, I have to assume their reason is not ego. If it was ego, why be a minority owner and let someone with less money be the front man? I strongly believe that Fowler's supporters (Landis et al...) are in it for the money, and I mean the big relocation money a beckoning city will offer. However, I think they know the NFL wants to keep the Vikings in Minnesota and would frown on these Jersey landowners buying the Vikings.

Having said that, I think Landis and company are using Fowler as much as Fowler is using them. Landis and company want to use Fowler (as a minority owner) to 'get' NFL approval for the team. Fowler is using Landis and such for the financial backing he needs to own an NFL team. They both get what they want, the NFL has a hard time saying no to a minority owner and POOF. This is the only scenario that doesn't smell as much and it flat out stinks as a Viking fan.

 

[Bull Dozier]

Why is it that people think that only Fowler will be the one spending money on the team, as opposed to him AND his partners?

I have been doing some thinking about this.I figure there are only two reasons a billionaire would buy an NFL franchise; for money or for ego. Because Fowler's backers actually have more money than him, I have to assume their reason is not ego. If it was ego, why be a minority owner and let someone with less money be the front man? I strongly believe that Fowler's supporters (Landis et al...) are in it for the money, and I mean the big relocation money a beckoning city will offer. However, I think they know the NFL wants to keep the Vikings in Minnesota and would frown on these Jersey landowners buying the Vikings.

Having said that, I think Landis and company are using Fowler as much as Fowler is using them. Landis and company want to use Fowler (as a minority owner) to 'get' NFL approval for the team. Fowler is using Landis and such for the financial backing he needs to own an NFL team. They both get what they want, the NFL has a hard time saying no to a minority owner and POOF. This is the only scenario that doesn't smell as much and it flat out stinks as a Viking fan.

Why would the Jersey guys not be in it for the universally assumed idea that they want to get a bunch of free land from a municipality (ie Blaine) build their own stadium, develop the land around the stadium and make a boat load of money that way? That'd be my assumption, and given that the money men are land developers, that makes more sense to me than for land developers to get into the game hoping for a future relocation check. It's all speculation at this point, but that would be my guess.

 

[BlueOnion]

Why would the Jersey guys not be in it for the universally assumed idea that they want to get a bunch of free land from a municipality (ie Blaine) build their own stadium, develop the land around the stadium and make a boat load of money that way? That'd be my assumption, and given that the money men are land developers, that makes more sense to me than for land developers to get into the game hoping for a future relocation check. It's all speculation at this point, but that would be my guess.

In this example, they would have to pay for the construction of the stadium.If they relocate, the new city could pay them 500 million, would probably build the owners the stadium for them and still make the same revenue after stadium is built, whether it is in Minnesota or in a new city.

 

[Bull Dozier]

Why would the Jersey guys not be in it for the universally assumed idea that they want to get a bunch of free land from a municipality (ie Blaine) build their own stadium, develop the land around the stadium and make a boat load of money that way?  That'd be my assumption, and given that the money men are land developers, that makes more sense to me than for land developers to get into the game hoping for a future relocation check.  It's all speculation at this point, but that would be my guess.

In this example, they would have to pay for the construction of the stadium.If they relocate, the new city could pay them 500 million, would probably build the owners the stadium for them and still make the same revenue after stadium is built, whether it is in Minnesota or in a new city.

They'd get the same revenue, but they wouldn't own the stadium (even if I agreed that a new city would give them half a billion AND build a stadium at no cost to the team, they wouldn't give them the stadium on top of it. They'd lease the stadium to the team in some form. If they built the stadium on free land from the city, the team would own the stadium, they'd develop the land around the stadium, making a bonanza there, and the team would be worth even more since it could be sold with the stadium and land attached (remember, the land was free from the city). I really doubt the NJ guys are minority owners just to get a portion of the relocation fees, and future revenues. Doesn't make sense to me. I'm guessing they are minority owners as Fowler has agreed to give them the rights the team secures to develop the land they would get from Blaine. That just makes more sense to me in the grand scheme of things. But in reality, who knows.

 

[BlueOnion]

They'd get the same revenue, but they wouldn't own the stadium (even if I agreed that a new city would give them half a billion AND build a stadium at no cost to the team, they wouldn't give them the stadium on top of it. They'd lease the stadium to the team in some form. If they built the stadium on free land from the city, the team would own the stadium, they'd develop the land around the stadium, making a bonanza there, and the team would be worth even more since it could be sold with the stadium and land attached (remember, the land was free from the city). I really doubt the NJ guys are minority owners just to get a portion of the relocation fees, and future revenues. Doesn't make sense to me. I'm guessing they are minority owners as Fowler has agreed to give them the rights the team secures to develop the land they would get from Blaine. That just makes more sense to me in the grand scheme of things. But in reality, who knows.

I have to agree, in reality, who knows. But I currently live 5 miles from the Meadowlands; which houses, Giant Stadium, Continental Arena and the Meadowlands Racetrack. Landis, being a previous owner of the Nets, does not have a good reputation for 'developing land'.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

The whole nature of the Vikings is changing. Which leads me to a thought I had this morning.Apparently on the offensive side of the ball, they're looking to be more run oriented. In this light, is it a stretch to think that the Vikings could take Alex Barron at #7, or is that too high? There appears to be more talent at WR than most people were anticipating. I think they could pick up a good one at #18.The Williams signing is HUGE. No pun intended.

 

[BlueOnion]

The whole nature of the Vikings is changing.  Which leads me to a thought I had this morning.

Apparently on the offensive side of the ball, they're looking to be more run oriented.  In this light, is it a stretch to think that the Vikings could take Alex Barron at #7, or is that too high?  There appears to be more talent at WR than most people were anticipating.  I think they could pick up a good one at #18.

The Williams signing is HUGE.  No pun intended.

Andy -If there is one position I follow more than the others with the Vikings, it is the offensive line.

Currently this is where we sit:

LT - Bryant McKinnie Worldly potential that has not been reached yet. However, late last season he started to fulfill some of that potential. I am unsure of his contract situation, but he has been on the team since 2002 (late fall), so I wonder when his contract expires. I suspect he has two years left, but the Vikings will never let him go cheaply. Pretty much our long term solution, just need him to develop a little more and sign a big contract.

LG - Chris Liewinski Did you know he has the same exact birthday as Monica Lewinksi? Chris will most likely be a guard for us for some time. We have been working with him ever since we acquired him from Detroit and he is a proto-type mauler in the interior. Not sure about his contract.

C - Matt Birk Perenial pro-bowl player who just signed a long term contract. Apparent leader in the locker room and on the offensve line.

RG - David Dixon His time is nearly up and may only be a possible starter in 2005, after which he will relegated on the team or retire. Definite hole opening up here.

RT - Mike Rosenthal Quality\Good offensive linemen who does not have the potential to be 'great'. Fortunately he signed a long term contract last season and will be a starting tackle for some time; whether it is the right side or he moves to the left side if\when McKinnie leaves.

backup - Nate Dorsey A great draft selection last year as he is very young and has great upside potential. Played tackle in college but apparently is being groomed to be a guard; given Rosenthal and McKinnie are not going anywhere. The kid is young and could possibly step in at right guard this season, but two seasons seem more realistic. This kid could be a starting left tackle, right tackle or guard in about three seasons; he just turned 21 last fall.

backup - Athony Herrera Big time high school standout whose mother would not let him go to the University of Miami. Herrera opted for Tennessee and developed quickly. A real mauler type and is probably more suited for guard than Dorsey. However, he lacks a athleticism and experience. Most likely a starting guard for us in three years (max) and will probably have a career similar to that of David Dixon.

backups Adam Haayer and Adam Goldeberg Two quality athletes who have developed big bodies and maintained a great work ethic from their days in (University of...) Minnesota nd Idaho respectively. These guys make up our 'backups', given these two cover both guard and tackle positions. Not great but very serviceable as backups and play for very cap friendly contracts.

backup Corey Withrow Another quality backup who knows his role and excels at it. Some in the organization believe he could start for half the other NFL teams and stepped in well last year when Birk was hurt. One of the tops in the league when it comes to talent, role and salary. Great value.

So I don't know if Minnesota would invest a #7 draft pick on a tackle, considering we have long term solutions at left and right tackle that we are very happy with. In addition, we have great depth at the interior positions.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

The whole nature of the Vikings is changing.  Which leads me to a thought I had this morning.

Apparently on the offensive side of the ball, they're looking to be more run oriented.  In this light, is it a stretch to think that the Vikings could take Alex Barron at #7, or is that too high?  There appears to be more talent at WR than most people were anticipating.  I think they could pick up a good one at #18.

The Williams signing is HUGE.  No pun intended.

Andy -If there is one position I follow more than the others with the Vikings, it is the offensive line.

Currently this is where we sit:

LT - Bryant McKinnie Worldly potential that has not been reached yet. However, late last season he started to fulfill some of that potential. I am unsure of his contract situation, but he has been on the team since 2002 (late fall), so I wonder when his contract expires. I suspect he has two years left, but the Vikings will never let him go cheaply. Pretty much our long term solution, just need him to develop a little more and sign a big contract.

LG - Chris Liewinski Did you know he has the same exact birthday as Monica Lewinksi? Chris will most likely be a guard for us for some time. We have been working with him ever since we acquired him from Detroit and he is a proto-type mauler in the interior. Not sure about his contract.

C - Matt Birk Perenial pro-bowl player who just signed a long term contract. Apparent leader in the locker room and on the offensve line.

RG - David Dixon His time is nearly up and may only be a possible starter in 2005, after which he will relegated on the team or retire. Definite hole opening up here.

RT - Mike Rosenthal Quality\Good offensive linemen who does not have the potential to be 'great'. Fortunately he signed a long term contract last season and will be a starting tackle for some time; whether it is the right side or he moves to the left side if\when McKinnie leaves.

backup - Nate Dorsey A great draft selection last year as he is very young and has great upside potential. Played tackle in college but apparently is being groomed to be a guard; given Rosenthal and McKinnie are not going anywhere. The kid is young and could possibly step in at right guard this season, but two seasons seem more realistic. This kid could be a starting left tackle, right tackle or guard in about three seasons; he just turned 21 last fall.

backup - Athony Herrera Big time high school standout whose mother would not let him go to the University of Miami. Herrera opted for Tennessee and developed quickly. A real mauler type and is probably more suited for guard than Dorsey. However, he lacks a athleticism and experience. Most likely a starting guard for us in three years (max) and will probably have a career similar to that of David Dixon.

backups Adam Haayer and Adam Goldeberg Two quality athletes who have developed big bodies and maintained a great work ethic from their days in (University of...) Minnesota nd Idaho respectively. These guys make up our 'backups', given these two cover both guard and tackle positions. Not great but very serviceable as backups and play for very cap friendly contracts.

backup Corey Withrow Another quality backup who knows his role and excels at it. Some in the organization believe he could start for half the other NFL teams and stepped in well last year when Birk was hurt. One of the tops in the league when it comes to talent, role and salary. Great value.

So I don't know if Minnesota would invest a #7 draft pick on a tackle, considering we have long term solutions at left and right tackle that we are very happy with. In addition, we have great depth at the interior positions.

So, you're saying they're not going to draft Alex Barron? Seriously though, great reply.

Is there any concern that Rosenthal won't be able to come back completely from the blown achilles?

Ideally, I'd like to see them take either of the top CBs or Derek Johnson with the #7. However, if either Edwards or Williams are available, that will be the pick if for no other reason than PR. Not that either would be a disappointing pick.

 

[BlueOnion]

So, you're saying they're not going to draft Alex Barron?

Seriously though, great reply.

Is there any concern that Rosenthal won't be able to come back completely from the blown achilles?

Ideally, I'd like to see them take either of the top CBs or Derek Johnson with the #7. However, if either Edwards or Williams are available, that will be the pick if for no other reason than PR. Not that either would be a disappointing pick.

I don't think so. When you draft a offensive tackle within the first 10 picks, the team kind of needs to move that guy to a starting position within 12 months. McKinnie will be here for at least 24 months and Rosenthal maybe even longer.As far as Rosenthal's injury, I have heard very little about his rehab (which I assume is good), but many insiders believe Dorsey could do the job if asked. After Rosental went down in week 2 last year, the coaching staff was expecting they could throw Dorsey in there and he would do fine. Well he struggled more than they expected, but I believe they attribute that to the kid being a 4th round draft pick and only 20 years old.

I think the coaching staff is still high on Dorsey.

 

[Hinezer]

The whole nature of the Vikings is changing.  Which leads me to a thought I had this morning.

Apparently on the offensive side of the ball, they're looking to be more run oriented.  In this light, is it a stretch to think that the Vikings could take Alex Barron at #7, or is that too high?  There appears to be more talent at WR than most people were anticipating.  I think they could pick up a good one at #18.

The Williams signing is HUGE.  No pun intended.

Andy -If there is one position I follow more than the others with the Vikings, it is the offensive line.

Currently this is where we sit:

LT - Bryant McKinnie Worldly potential that has not been reached yet. However, late last season he started to fulfill some of that potential. I am unsure of his contract situation, but he has been on the team since 2002 (late fall), so I wonder when his contract expires. I suspect he has two years left, but the Vikings will never let him go cheaply. Pretty much our long term solution, just need him to develop a little more and sign a big contract.

LG - Chris Liewinski Did you know he has the same exact birthday as Monica Lewinksi? Chris will most likely be a guard for us for some time. We have been working with him ever since we acquired him from Detroit and he is a proto-type mauler in the interior. Not sure about his contract.

C - Matt Birk Perenial pro-bowl player who just signed a long term contract. Apparent leader in the locker room and on the offensve line.

RG - David Dixon His time is nearly up and may only be a possible starter in 2005, after which he will relegated on the team or retire. Definite hole opening up here.

RT - Mike Rosenthal Quality\Good offensive linemen who does not have the potential to be 'great'. Fortunately he signed a long term contract last season and will be a starting tackle for some time; whether it is the right side or he moves to the left side if\when McKinnie leaves.

backup - Nate Dorsey A great draft selection last year as he is very young and has great upside potential. Played tackle in college but apparently is being groomed to be a guard; given Rosenthal and McKinnie are not going anywhere. The kid is young and could possibly step in at right guard this season, but two seasons seem more realistic. This kid could be a starting left tackle, right tackle or guard in about three seasons; he just turned 21 last fall.

backup - Athony Herrera Big time high school standout whose mother would not let him go to the University of Miami. Herrera opted for Tennessee and developed quickly. A real mauler type and is probably more suited for guard than Dorsey. However, he lacks a athleticism and experience. Most likely a starting guard for us in three years (max) and will probably have a career similar to that of David Dixon.

backups Adam Haayer and Adam Goldeberg Two quality athletes who have developed big bodies and maintained a great work ethic from their days in (University of...) Minnesota nd Idaho respectively. These guys make up our 'backups', given these two cover both guard and tackle positions. Not great but very serviceable as backups and play for very cap friendly contracts.

backup Corey Withrow Another quality backup who knows his role and excels at it. Some in the organization believe he could start for half the other NFL teams and stepped in well last year when Birk was hurt. One of the tops in the league when it comes to talent, role and salary. Great value.

So I don't know if Minnesota would invest a #7 draft pick on a tackle, considering we have long term solutions at left and right tackle that we are very happy with. In addition, we have great depth at the interior positions.

Withrow was cut and Haayer was not tendered as a RFA.

 

[BlueOnion]

Withrow was cut and Haayer was not tendered as a RFA.

Correction noted. But realistically I expect these guys to be on the roster next season.

 

[redman]

Randy spent the last off season bulking up so he could be more physical.  While not exactly the off season warrior that Jerry Rice is, it's not like he spends the off season sitting around watching TV and sleeping 23 hours a day.

This is par of the reason. He needs to do more stretching and more cardio work. Those foot and ankle problems don't heal themselves if you put more mass on your body. Same goes for the back. And the hamstring injury is the first sign that a player is not stretching enough.Having said that, maybe Randy starts stretching more. I don't know. But for any other male out there who has turned 30, the body doesn't get any younger and habits are hard to break.

The reason I pointed that out was not to show that he will be successful in the future because of the added weight. The reason I pointed it out was to show that Randy Moss is willing to do what is necessary in the offseason to make himself better. If the Raiders tell him what they think he needs to do to improve, he's willing to do it. His supposed poor work ethic reputation is unfounded.

After all, it worked for David Boston!

 

[Bull Dozier]

Randy spent the last off season bulking up so he could be more physical.  While not exactly the off season warrior that Jerry Rice is, it's not like he spends the off season sitting around watching TV and sleeping 23 hours a day.

This is par of the reason. He needs to do more stretching and more cardio work. Those foot and ankle problems don't heal themselves if you put more mass on your body. Same goes for the back. And the hamstring injury is the first sign that a player is not stretching enough.Having said that, maybe Randy starts stretching more. I don't know. But for any other male out there who has turned 30, the body doesn't get any younger and habits are hard to break.

The reason I pointed that out was not to show that he will be successful in the future because of the added weight. The reason I pointed it out was to show that Randy Moss is willing to do what is necessary in the offseason to make himself better. If the Raiders tell him what they think he needs to do to improve, he's willing to do it. His supposed poor work ethic reputation is unfounded.

After all, it worked for David Boston!

Randy didn't come to camp looking like a middle linebacker.

 

[Hov34]

The whole nature of the Vikings is changing.  Which leads me to a thought I had this morning.

Apparently on the offensive side of the ball, they're looking to be more run oriented.  In this light, is it a stretch to think that the Vikings could take Alex Barron at #7, or is that too high?  There appears to be more talent at WR than most people were anticipating.  I think they could pick up a good one at #18.

The Williams signing is HUGE.  No pun intended.

Andy -If there is one position I follow more than the others with the Vikings, it is the offensive line.

Currently this is where we sit:

LT - Bryant McKinnie Worldly potential that has not been reached yet. However, late last season he started to fulfill some of that potential. I am unsure of his contract situation, but he has been on the team since 2002 (late fall), so I wonder when his contract expires. I suspect he has two years left, but the Vikings will never let him go cheaply. Pretty much our long term solution, just need him to develop a little more and sign a big contract.

LG - Chris Liewinski Did you know he has the same exact birthday as Monica Lewinksi? Chris will most likely be a guard for us for some time. We have been working with him ever since we acquired him from Detroit and he is a proto-type mauler in the interior. Not sure about his contract.

C - Matt Birk Perenial pro-bowl player who just signed a long term contract. Apparent leader in the locker room and on the offensve line.

RG - David Dixon His time is nearly up and may only be a possible starter in 2005, after which he will relegated on the team or retire. Definite hole opening up here.

RT - Mike Rosenthal Quality\Good offensive linemen who does not have the potential to be 'great'. Fortunately he signed a long term contract last season and will be a starting tackle for some time; whether it is the right side or he moves to the left side if\when McKinnie leaves.

backup - Nate Dorsey A great draft selection last year as he is very young and has great upside potential. Played tackle in college but apparently is being groomed to be a guard; given Rosenthal and McKinnie are not going anywhere. The kid is young and could possibly step in at right guard this season, but two seasons seem more realistic. This kid could be a starting left tackle, right tackle or guard in about three seasons; he just turned 21 last fall.

backup - Athony Herrera Big time high school standout whose mother would not let him go to the University of Miami. Herrera opted for Tennessee and developed quickly. A real mauler type and is probably more suited for guard than Dorsey. However, he lacks a athleticism and experience. Most likely a starting guard for us in three years (max) and will probably have a career similar to that of David Dixon.

backups Adam Haayer and Adam Goldeberg Two quality athletes who have developed big bodies and maintained a great work ethic from their days in (University of...) Minnesota nd Idaho respectively. These guys make up our 'backups', given these two cover both guard and tackle positions. Not great but very serviceable as backups and play for very cap friendly contracts.

backup Corey Withrow Another quality backup who knows his role and excels at it. Some in the organization believe he could start for half the other NFL teams and stepped in well last year when Birk was hurt. One of the tops in the league when it comes to talent, role and salary. Great value.

So I don't know if Minnesota would invest a #7 draft pick on a tackle, considering we have long term solutions at left and right tackle that we are very happy with. In addition, we have great depth at the interior positions.

I thought Liewinski was being moved to Right Guard and Goldberg would be the LG with Dixon either retiring or backing up?

 

[BlueOnion]

I thought Liewinski was being moved to Right Guard and Goldberg would be the LG with Dixon either retiring or backing up?

This would be news to me.

 

[reg]

I thought Liewinski was being moved to Right Guard and Goldberg would be the LG with Dixon either retiring or backing up?

This would be news to me.

Link

The future of David Dixon was cast into some doubt when Mike Tice, at the Super Bowl pre-game festivities, made his first announced change in the 2005 Vikings lineup.

Tice said that guard Chris Liwienski will move from the left side to the right side -- opening a spot on the left side and replacing current starter David Dixon on the right side.

Although Dixon is aging, he had a very solid 2004 season and wants to return for 2005. But, if his starting job isn't there, that might change the plans both he and the Vikings have for his position.

The plan is to move Liwienski to the right side and let Adam Goldberg and Anthony Herrera battle it out for the left side -- which might leave Dixon as the odd man out. Stay tuned for minicamp updates to follow up on this decision.