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The Vikings offseason = effing Trainwreck (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Steve in Minneapolis
- Start date
BigJim®
Footballguy
Righetti
Footballguy
I wanted to bump this thread because the "trainwreck" is starting to make some sense now.Smoot signing is huge.. there could be more to comemy point being, in my opinon, you have to take these offseasons for the whole picture, and don't jump the gun to early by saying it was great/terrible.the offseason really comes down to a handful of different steps and I don't judge my team (The Jets) offseason till at least after the draft.1) Your own cuts2) Your own restructuring3) new free agents4) trades made, not made5) draft6) June 1st cuts made7) post June 1st pickups
BlueOnion
Footballguy
The reason everyone thought it was a trainwreck early is because a lot of media outlets in Minnesota (pertaining to the Vikings) loves to promote the negativity (REUSSE and company 
) and garner the PR and the pat on the back from their publisher.God help me if I ever get my hands on Reusse.
Guppy King Tygeb
Footballguy
then you don't follow the o-line as closely as you profess. THis has been a reported and stated intent.
Then I stand corrected.
GRIDIRON ASSASSIN
Footballguy
So let me see here....A new starting DT in Pat WilliamsA new starting MLB in Napoleon HarrisA new starting CB in Fred SmootA new starting safety in Darren SharperThe defense will be feared for the first time since that one stoned guy with the bullet hole was running the wrong way with the ball.The #7 pick in the draft for WR Mike Williams, Troy Williamson or Mark Clayton and probably the best available offensive lineman or DE with their own pick at #18.Randy who?
The Man Who Met Andy Griffith
Footballguy
Of course losing Randy had nothing to do with gaining Pat Williams, Smoot & Sharper. But I'm sure Troy Williamsom will have them forgetting all about Randy Moss very soon...
TommyKramer
Footballguy
I believe that N. Hariis will play SLB.I also believe that T. Williamson would be a major reach at #7.
But, that's just my opinion.
GRIDIRON ASSASSIN
Footballguy
Really now... you don't think losing moss freed up salary cap space to be used elsewhere for '05 and beyond?!?!?I just feel bad for Peanut Tillman, as Randy Moss was his personal beaotch.
To be fair, the Vikings did have a pretty good defense in the early 90's with Randle, Doleman, Del Rio, Carl Lee and few others. But I love that the team's focus is now on the defense instead of just chucking it up to Randy.I'd like to see Burress signed and/or Gardner traded for and/or Travis Taylor signed. Then the Vikings can go defense with their 1st round picks. I don't think that the Vikings are done either. There is still buzz about trades involving Darius and Darren Howard and if Hartwell remains unsigned, I'm sure the Vikings may take a look. Just think if Antonio Pierce would have been fine with the deferred signing bonus.
TommyKramer
Footballguy
Yes, I'm sure the Cubs are very upset that Moss is out of the division.
GRIDIRON ASSASSIN
Footballguy
The Bears had no problem shutting down Moss. Check the box scores...
Yes, I'm sure the Cubs are very upset that Moss is out of the division.
TommyKramer
Footballguy
I guess I stand corrected. The Bears would rather face the Vikes offense w/o Randy Moss. Sounds reasonable.The Bears had no problem shutting down Moss. Check the box scores...
Yes, I'm sure the Cubs are very upset that Moss is out of the division.
GRIDIRON ASSASSIN
Footballguy
The Vikings will be a better team with all the additions sans Moss vs. with Moss and no additions.The Bears own the Vikes at Chicago lately...And the Vikes were pretty mortal outdoors.
TommyKramer
Footballguy
That might be the biggest understatement ever. You're right, the Bears had our card lately at Chicago (as did every team at home on grass). But, I still feel that ALL of the FA acquisitions the Vikes have made could have been done WITH Moss still on the roster.
Signed,
Bitter Viking Fan
ullsSteamWhistle: 
Bull Dozier
Footballguy
Moss averaged 6.1 receptions for 82 yards, and .7 TDs a game for his career against Chicago, which averages out to 98 receptions for 1320 yards, and 11 TDs for 16 games.The Bears had no problem shutting down Moss. Check the box scores...
Yes, I'm sure the Cubs are very upset that Moss is out of the division.
skol asylum
Footballguy
Karma huh? Well let's see...1) Wife beater Ahman Green arrested. Check.Laugh it up cheesedick. The Packers are closing in on their cellar dwellar years with the impending departure of Brett Fav-rah. Karma is a #####.
2) Al Harris charged with sexual assault. Check.
3) Packers having a universally acknowledged horrible draft. Check.
4) Javon Walker threatening to hold out. Check.
:cheese:
BigJim®
Footballguy
Blue Onion, with all due respect, each point raised in the initial post remains valid, even with a nice FA class and a pretty good draft. Here were the points raised:
Is Fowler not still a liar? Is he any closer to owning this franchise when there are daily reports that he's going to be replaced? Is there any reason to believe Red will not be the owner come June 1? I'd call all of this a negative cloud that remains.
I'm sorry, but this is as valid a gripe as any. The Viking allowed Linehan to walk because Red was too busy sealing a doomed sale to deal with critical coaching issues. Why in the world would anyone assume a converted OL coach can step in and replace an above average OC? They shouldn't. Steve Loney was hired as a shoe-in without any searching for an alternative, and last I heard he remains OL coach in addition to OC coach, which is a joke for an NFL franchise.
And in fact, after the posting of this Tice was busted for ticket scalping and changed his story twice. In addition, no fewer than 5 times did I read in print comments from Tice which gave strong indication they would take Nugent with the 2nd round pick. I thought he'd learned from what happened when he aired interest in Ryan Simms. I really can't believe some of this stuff goes over Tice's head. It is still a huge question mark whether Tice can ever be a legitimate coach regardless of the player personnel we collect, and he was clearly retained for financial reasons as his track record is very shaky.
Unless Sam Cowart returns to form, Nap. Harris improves following a down year, and T.Williamson proves himself to have NFL talent, we traded a historically productive WR for questionable value, at a time when a lame duck owner is in charge, with no one in the entire organization (player or front office) stepping up to give any sort of explanation for why this needed to occur. Initially I believed Red traded Randy because he did not want Randy squawking when he perpetuated his cheapness regarding needed FA signings. Now that we attacked the FA market, I can't figure this out at all. We could have traded our own 7th for Cowart, and Randy Moss on our offense with all the FA's we signed would be every bit as good, if not better, than it is with unproved guys like Nap Harris/Troy Williamson. Bottom line, even the benefits that have occured do not change the negatives that once and still exist.
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Unless Sam Cowart returns to form, Nap. Harris improves following a down year, and T.Williamson proves himself to have NFL talent, we traded a historically productive WR for questionable value, at a time when a lame duck owner is in charge, with no one in the entire organization (player or front office) stepping up to give any sort of explanation for why this needed to occur. Initially I believed Red traded Randy because he did not want Randy squawking when he perpetuated his cheapness regarding needed FA signings. Now that we attacked the FA market, I can't figure this out at all. We could have traded our own 7th for Cowart, and Randy Moss on our offense with all the FA's we signed would be every bit as good, if not better, than it is with unproved guys like Nap Harris/Troy Williamson.
Bottom line, even the benefits that have occured do not change the negatives that once and still exist.
I'm sick of hearing how the Vikings screwed themselves in the Moss trade. Frankly I find it very similar to the Shaq trade. You have a one-of-a-kind athlete who literally can do things that no one else who plays that game can. Thus, the idea of equal value is preposterous. You're not going to get equal value in a trade for either of these guys because no one else can do what they can. What you should do (and the teams tried to do) is just hang on to the player. Of course things change drastically when the players in question don't want to play any more. Then you're in the crappiest position in the world. You have the ultimate weapon on your team BUT HE DOESN'T WANT TO PLAY. It's a lose/lose situation. If you keep him you bite a huge salary cap bullet and the guy won't even play to his full capability. Of course, if you trade him you're not going to receive equal value in return and he actually will start playing to his full capability for his new team. There really is no solution. That's why people like us can criticize and deride the Lakers and Vikings endlessly for what they did, because they could not have done anything right in their situations. So the Vikings traded Moss and received unequal value in return. Should we really be that surprised? What exactly were the better options?
All the matters is when it counted last year the Vikings ended the GB packers season. This year all that will matter is the Vikings win the NFC North and they will. Ownership is the only mess left.Tice selling tickets is now just bad joke not big mess.Randy Moss trade is not going to hurt the Offense much as pepole think if at all. And the Def as moved from low 20's type to top 10 type.
Bull Dozier
Footballguy
Keep him and hire a coach that knows how to use his abilities correctly. Moss' career YPR is 15.9. He did not reach that # a single time in three years under Tice (12.7, 14.7 and 15.7). In four years under Green, he averaged 19.0, 17.7, and 18.7, and 15.0. Moss came into the league with a desire to prove the doubters wrong. Dennt Green gave him that opportunity by utilizing him to his fullest. Tice hasn't done that. You can't deny that has played a role in his disgruntledness.Is Moss a pouter and selfish? He sure is. When he was used as Denny Green used him, did he help the Vikes win games? Definitely. If he was used like he was his first few years, could he still? Undeniably. You keep him, and get rid of the liability of a coach. Not the other way around.
BigJim®
Footballguy
I'm sorry, I thought I'd made that unmistakeably clear. The other option was to keep the historically productive WR, despite his flaws, and *at the same time* field an actual NFL caliber defense for the first time in Moss' tenure with the franchise, and hopefully that historic production would then not be totally wasted, as it has been.
Dennis Green's departure also coincided with Cris Carter's departure. With Carter in there, the Vikings had their possession underneath guy which freed up Moss to go deep. Moss's least productive year under Green, at least in terms of YPR, was the last one (15.0) which also coincided with Carter's least productive year during that span. Once Tice took over Moss's YPR took a considerable drop, particularly the 12.7 year which was the "Randy Ratio" year. But as you can see they steadily climbed and last year reached 15.7 which was higher than it was under Green's last year even with Cris Carter. I'm going to attribute that to the emergence of Burleson as a dependable possession underneath guy, but that can be argued. Anyways, my argument is that Tice was definitely starting to use Randy properly (which I guess we've defined as sending him deep) and he was still a pissant and took plays off even in incredibly crucial games. And I think the other factor in this, besides Randy's performance, is how Randy's attitude affected the team. Even Cpep commented after the Pro Bowl that perhaps it was Randy's time to go. That to me indicates that at least a few Vikings had had enough of Randy and his attitude regardless of how talented a player he was. Simply hiring a new coach would not erase the negative effect of Randy's immaturity in that locker room. To me the formula boiled down to something like this:
Vikings = Everything else + Randy's talent which he was not fully using - Randy's attitude or
Vikings = Everything else - Randy's talent which he was not fully using + Another WR's talent (Williamson in this case)
It's a tough choice to make, and again I don't think either one is necessarily right.
If you keep Randy he's not going to play at his full potential AND his attitude negatively affects the team. And I'm not a salary cap guru, but is it safe to say that the cap space freed up by Moss's departure allowed the Vikings to sign defensive free agents? Was it financially possible to have both? Anyone know this?
BigJim®
Footballguy
Yes, so maybe you don't want to involve yourself in this discussion until after the Vikes go 8-8 in 2005, and then you can agree, 10 months after the offseason. That would be quite timely. I've already recapped the existing disappointments related to this offseason: (1) lame duck ownership; (2) Steve Loney appointed OC; (3) Tice retained for financial reasons; (4) Moss traded for a pile of beans. Anyone who thinks the Vikes could not have improved ten-fold on what may result in a decent overall offseason is using selective memory.I'm sure the Taj Mahal looked crappy when they were digging the foundation. Isn't the finished product the point?
BigJim®
Footballguy
(A) It's no secret Randy's attitude was based on frustration over losing, and the ineptitude of management to put a defense on the field while Red pocketed cash that should have been spent on FAs; (B) It's not only not safe to say but plainly wrong to say the Vikes could not have signed every FA they got with Moss on the team. In fact, the Vikes took a hit on the cap because they had to accelerate a pro-rata signing bonus for the remaining years of his contract.
A) While I'm sure some of Randy's attitude was a result of losing, I find it hard to believe he squired a ref with a water bottle and hit a cop with his car because he was sick of losing. Moreover, even if all of his negative behavior can be attributed to losing, I don't know if being that much of a fair weather player necessarily creates a positive locker room environment. And from Culpepper's comments after the Pro Bowl, I think we can definitively conclude that they did not.B) Randy's signing bonus would have been paid by the Vikings regardless of what uniform he's in this season. That's a sunk cost. What does not have to be paid this season by the Vikings is Randy's salary. And I find it hard to believe that the cap space created by the absence of Randy's salary didn't in some way contribute to the Vikings' ability to sign free agents this season. I think the Colts are a more extreme illustration of this. There's tons of people who would like to play with Manning et al but the Colts simply can't afford it with their offensive salaries.
BigJim®
Footballguy
You're entitled to that opinion. The 'infractions' you refer to are irrelevant as far as I'm concerned from a football perspective. Randy Moss produced on the field, at a historic pace, and you're acting like the guy was Joe Schmo with an attitude. Also, you are exaggerating the cap implications. Even counting all of the outstanding bonuses owed ($9 mil) the team signed its FAs and is still $9+ mil below the cap after all of the FA signings (they were $30 mil under even counting Moss' full 2005 cap impact). Sharper, P.Williams and Sam Cowart are minimal cap impacts this year and going forward. Smoot is mostly bonus money which will be spread out over the 5 years of his deal, with manageable annual salaries. The Vikes may have had $20 mil in cap space available next year with Moss' salary instead of the $27 mil they'll now enjoy, but that is no reason to trade a historically productive WR. There's just nothing remotely similar to the Colts cap going on with the Vikes, with or without Moss.
M
MelvinTScupper
Guest
I think we'll find out just how injured Moss was. He has certainly been the best WR in the league going into last year. He wasn't remotely close to the top WR last year, and that nagging ankle injury isn't going anywhere. We'll see. I won't write this off as overly lopsided just yet.I think Al DavisMcCombs on this deal. Almost like a monkey trying to play with a boa constrictor. Never trade the best receiver in the league for a shot at a rookie wr.
Downgrade Culpepper.
Has to be something in the water up there.
BigJim®
Footballguy
13 TDs in 12 games (some of them partial games) hardly represents "wasn't remotely close to the top WR." He had 8 TDs after just 4 1/2 games before tearing his hamstring in the 2nd quarter week 5 vs. New Orleans- and I might add this was his first serious injury in 7 years as a pro. Based on the way he finished the season still in recovery (TD in each of last four games), there is no doubt in my mind Moss would have approached 20 TDs last year without that injury. Granted, his overall FF points in a yardage format were marred by the limited action he saw after that week, but looking at the season stats as a whole is not a rational guage of his anticipated ability to produce. That's a little like saying Priest wasn't remotely close to the top RB when in fact the guy was unreal thru 7 weeks (14 TDs) and would have blown away his positional counterparts but for injury.I think we'll find out just how injured Moss was. He has certainly been the best WR in the league going into last year. He wasn't remotely close to the top WR last year, and that nagging ankle injury isn't going anywhere. We'll see. I won't write this off as overly lopsided just yet.I think Al Davis
Downgrade Culpepper.
Has to be something in the water up there.
M
MelvinTScupper
Guest
And if ifs and butts were candy and nuts, it's be Christmas every day.He wasn't remotely close to the top WR last year. That is a FACT.13 TDs in 12 games (some of them partial games) hardly represents "wasn't remotely close to the top WR." He had 8 TDs after just 4 1/2 games before tearing his hamstring in the 2nd quarter week 5 vs. New Orleans- and I might add this was his first serious injury in 7 years as a pro. Based on the way he finished the season still in recovery (TD in each of last four games), there is no doubt in my mind Moss would have approached 20 TDs last year without that injury. Granted, his overall FF points in a yardage format were marred by the limited action he saw after that week, but looking at the season stats as a whole is not a rational guage of his anticipated ability to produce. That's a little like saying Priest wasn't remotely close to the top RB when in fact the guy was unreal thru 7 weeks (14 TDs) and would have blown away his positional counterparts but for injury.I think we'll find out just how injured Moss was. He has certainly been the best WR in the league going into last year. He wasn't remotely close to the top WR last year, and that nagging ankle injury isn't going anywhere. We'll see. I won't write this off as overly lopsided just yet.I think Al Davis
Downgrade Culpepper.
Has to be something in the water up there.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Yes, because of injury, you've covered that Captain Obvious. Care to make a sig bet, with me taking the side that he's "remotely close to the top WR" this season? I didn't think so.And if ifs and butts were candy and nuts, it's be Christmas every day.He wasn't remotely close to the top WR last year. That is a FACT.13 TDs in 12 games (some of them partial games) hardly represents "wasn't remotely close to the top WR." He had 8 TDs after just 4 1/2 games before tearing his hamstring in the 2nd quarter week 5 vs. New Orleans- and I might add this was his first serious injury in 7 years as a pro. Based on the way he finished the season still in recovery (TD in each of last four games), there is no doubt in my mind Moss would have approached 20 TDs last year without that injury. Granted, his overall FF points in a yardage format were marred by the limited action he saw after that week, but looking at the season stats as a whole is not a rational guage of his anticipated ability to produce. That's a little like saying Priest wasn't remotely close to the top RB when in fact the guy was unreal thru 7 weeks (14 TDs) and would have blown away his positional counterparts but for injury.I think we'll find out just how injured Moss was. He has certainly been the best WR in the league going into last year. He wasn't remotely close to the top WR last year, and that nagging ankle injury isn't going anywhere. We'll see. I won't write this off as overly lopsided just yet.I think Al Davis
Downgrade Culpepper.
Has to be something in the water up there.
bostonfred
Footballguy
FYI: Sig bets are stupid.Yes, because of injury, you've covered that Captain Obvious. Care to make a sig bet, with me taking the side that he's "remotely close to the top WR" this season? I didn't think so.And if ifs and butts were candy and nuts, it's be Christmas every day.He wasn't remotely close to the top WR last year. That is a FACT.13 TDs in 12 games (some of them partial games) hardly represents "wasn't remotely close to the top WR." He had 8 TDs after just 4 1/2 games before tearing his hamstring in the 2nd quarter week 5 vs. New Orleans- and I might add this was his first serious injury in 7 years as a pro. Based on the way he finished the season still in recovery (TD in each of last four games), there is no doubt in my mind Moss would have approached 20 TDs last year without that injury. Granted, his overall FF points in a yardage format were marred by the limited action he saw after that week, but looking at the season stats as a whole is not a rational guage of his anticipated ability to produce. That's a little like saying Priest wasn't remotely close to the top RB when in fact the guy was unreal thru 7 weeks (14 TDs) and would have blown away his positional counterparts but for injury.I think we'll find out just how injured Moss was. He has certainly been the best WR in the league going into last year. He wasn't remotely close to the top WR last year, and that nagging ankle injury isn't going anywhere. We'll see. I won't write this off as overly lopsided just yet.I think Al Davis
Downgrade Culpepper.
Has to be something in the water up there.
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