The Vikings offseason = effing Trainwreck (1 Viewer)

[BigJim®]

I think Al Davis  McCombs on this deal. Almost like a monkey trying to play with a boa constrictor.  Never trade the best receiver in the league for a shot at a rookie wr.

Downgrade Culpepper. 

Has to be something in the water up there.

I think we'll find out just how injured Moss was. He has certainly been the best WR in the league going into last year. He wasn't remotely close to the top WR last year, and that nagging ankle injury isn't going anywhere. We'll see. I won't write this off as overly lopsided just yet.

13 TDs in 12 games (some of them partial games) hardly represents "wasn't remotely close to the top WR." He had 8 TDs after just 4 1/2 games before tearing his hamstring in the 2nd quarter week 5 vs. New Orleans- and I might add this was his first serious injury in 7 years as a pro. Based on the way he finished the season still in recovery (TD in each of last four games), there is no doubt in my mind Moss would have approached 20 TDs last year without that injury. Granted, his overall FF points in a yardage format were marred by the limited action he saw after that week, but looking at the season stats as a whole is not a rational guage of his anticipated ability to produce. That's a little like saying Priest wasn't remotely close to the top RB when in fact the guy was unreal thru 7 weeks (14 TDs) and would have blown away his positional counterparts but for injury.

And if ifs and butts were candy and nuts, it's be Christmas every day.He wasn't remotely close to the top WR last year. That is a FACT.

Yes, because of injury, you've covered that Captain Obvious. Care to make a sig bet, with me taking the side that he's "remotely close to the top WR" this season? I didn't think so.

FYI: Sig bets are stupid.

Thanks, your opinion matters.

 

[CanadianNFLJunkie]

And it only gets better....." ..... The Pioneer Press reports the Vikings say they are in good salary cap shape for the next five years. ...."

 

[encaitar]

Just so everyone knows, Moss' salary before being traded was $7.25 million for the upcoming year. On top of that, an additional cap hit of $2.25 million was to be considered as part of the signing bonus he got. By trading Moss, the Vikings were forced to take a cap hit for the remainder of his signing bonus(2.25 a year for 4 more years) which amounted to $9 million dollars. So, instead of Moss counting $9.5 million against the cap if he remained in purple, he counted $9 million. Additionally, Harris has a contract of $5.4 million for the upcoming season. However, Moss' salary was due to increase about $1.5 million a year for each of the next 3 years, so his cap hit would've been greater in the future. The Vikings don't actually save anything this year, but will save approx. $11 million next year, $12.5 million in 2007, and about $14 million in 2008. The extra money will definitely help them sign guys like Burleson and KWill to long term contracts in the next few years. So, while right now the move appears lopsided, but with this considered, it may have been best for the organization.

 

[John 14:6]

Once again, great postings Big Jim. I don't recall Moss publicly dissing his team and demanding to go like Corey Dillon or Terrell Owens did. But once those two got on teams with proven leadership they were extremely productive and helped get their teams to the Superbowl. (Of course now TO is being a distraction, but I'm sure the Eagles will overcome it because they're an actual team.)If Tice, Culpepper, Birk, etc. are having trouble because they can't deal with Moss, the problem is Tice, Culpepper, Birk, etc. They need to be more thick-skinned like the Patriots and Eagles. They should think about their team and winning as opposed to whether or not they're comfy. This is the NFL, if they can't handle one loud mouth in the locker room how are they going to take on other teams during the season? Plus, with all the other offseason moves chances are Moss wouldn't have been such a "distraction" anyway.IMO the Vikings are a better team now than they were last year. They could go deep in the playoffs. However, if they still had Moss I think they'd have a chance at a Superbowl. That's the most frustrating thing. If/when the Vikings are knocked out of the playoffs and Williamson doesn't play up to Moss' level, there'll be endless thoughts of "what if?"Randy Moss > Williamson and Harris

 

[Bull Dozier]

What exactly were the better options?

Keep him and hire a coach that knows how to use his abilities correctly. Moss' career YPR is 15.9. He did not reach that # a single time in three years under Tice (12.7, 14.7 and 15.7). In four years under Green, he averaged 19.0, 17.7, and 18.7, and 15.0. Moss came into the league with a desire to prove the doubters wrong. Dennt Green gave him that opportunity by utilizing him to his fullest. Tice hasn't done that. You can't deny that has played a role in his disgruntledness.Is Moss a pouter and selfish? He sure is. When he was used as Denny Green used him, did he help the Vikes win games? Definitely. If he was used like he was his first few years, could he still? Undeniably. You keep him, and get rid of the liability of a coach. Not the other way around.

Dennis Green's departure also coincided with Cris Carter's departure. With Carter in there, the Vikings had their possession underneath guy which freed up Moss to go deep. Moss's least productive year under Green, at least in terms of YPR, was the last one (15.0) which also coincided with Carter's least productive year during that span. Once Tice took over Moss's YPR took a considerable drop, particularly the 12.7 year which was the "Randy Ratio" year. But as you can see they steadily climbed and last year reached 15.7 which was higher than it was under Green's last year even with Cris Carter. I'm going to attribute that to the emergence of Burleson as a dependable possession underneath guy, but that can be argued. Anyways, my argument is that Tice was definitely starting to use Randy properly (which I guess we've defined as sending him deep) and he was still a pissant and took plays off even in incredibly crucial games. And I think the other factor in this, besides Randy's performance, is how Randy's attitude affected the team. Even Cpep commented after the Pro Bowl that perhaps it was Randy's time to go. That to me indicates that at least a few Vikings had had enough of Randy and his attitude regardless of how talented a player he was. Simply hiring a new coach would not erase the negative effect of Randy's immaturity in that locker room. To me the formula boiled down to something like this:

Vikings = Everything else + Randy's talent which he was not fully using - Randy's attitude or

Vikings = Everything else - Randy's talent which he was not fully using + Another WR's talent (Williamson in this case)

It's a tough choice to make, and again I don't think either one is necessarily right.

Green's last year with the team coincided with an atrotious year by Culpepper. It was by far his worst year as a pro, and that lead to the reduced numbers by Moss (in terms of ypr) moreso than any decline in Carter's ability, or any other factor. Also, is it such a surprise that Randy's ypr was up this year, when Culpepper had a statistically historical season? Had nothing changed, and Randy stayed in town, Culpepper most likely wouldn't have replicated those numbers, and we'd see Moss' ypr go down again.As far as Moss' attitude, three years of misuse, and no dedication to getting a defense, and you get what Moss gave us. His starting point for attitude is worse than most NFL players to begin with, but when you give him ample reason to be disappointed with the team, you get one bad apple. My contention is that it would be more advantagous to the team to get rid of the coach that is causing a big part of the problem, and invest the $30M in cap space on D, throw the ball deep to Moss, and you get a happy Moss helping you win games.

 

[encaitar]

I think the worst part about it all is Red saying he considered firing Tice and keeping Randy, but decided against it. I think we all know the reason why.... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you have two options, one which will make fans happy(firing Tice) and one that will upset them for years to come(trading Randy), which do you logically choose?

 

[MelvinTScupper]

I think Al Davis  McCombs on this deal. Almost like a monkey trying to play with a boa constrictor.  Never trade the best receiver in the league for a shot at a rookie wr.

Downgrade Culpepper. 

Has to be something in the water up there.

I think we'll find out just how injured Moss was. He has certainly been the best WR in the league going into last year. He wasn't remotely close to the top WR last year, and that nagging ankle injury isn't going anywhere. We'll see. I won't write this off as overly lopsided just yet.

13 TDs in 12 games (some of them partial games) hardly represents "wasn't remotely close to the top WR." He had 8 TDs after just 4 1/2 games before tearing his hamstring in the 2nd quarter week 5 vs. New Orleans- and I might add this was his first serious injury in 7 years as a pro. Based on the way he finished the season still in recovery (TD in each of last four games), there is no doubt in my mind Moss would have approached 20 TDs last year without that injury. Granted, his overall FF points in a yardage format were marred by the limited action he saw after that week, but looking at the season stats as a whole is not a rational guage of his anticipated ability to produce. That's a little like saying Priest wasn't remotely close to the top RB when in fact the guy was unreal thru 7 weeks (14 TDs) and would have blown away his positional counterparts but for injury.

And if ifs and butts were candy and nuts, it's be Christmas every day.He wasn't remotely close to the top WR last year. That is a FACT.

Yes, because of injury, you've covered that Captain Obvious. Care to make a sig bet, with me taking the side that he's "remotely close to the top WR" this season? I didn't think so.

Yes. I would. I'll say he won't be in the top 10. If I win, you put "I am seriously considering having Randy Moss' children, since I love him like any gay man would." If you win, I'll put "BigJim KNOWS Randy Moss. He oVVned me this year with his superior football knowledge."

 

[Shirtless]

Once again, great postings Big Jim. I don't recall Moss publicly dissing his team and demanding to go like Corey Dillon or Terrell Owens did. But once those two got on teams with proven leadership they were extremely productive and helped get their teams to the Superbowl. (Of course now TO is being a distraction, but I'm sure the Eagles will overcome it because they're an actual team.)

If Tice, Culpepper, Birk, etc. are having trouble because they can't deal with Moss, the problem is Tice, Culpepper, Birk, etc. They need to be more thick-skinned like the Patriots and Eagles. They should think about their team and winning as opposed to whether or not they're comfy. This is the NFL, if they can't handle one loud mouth in the locker room how are they going to take on other teams during the season? Plus, with all the other offseason moves chances are Moss wouldn't have been such a "distraction" anyway.

IMO the Vikings are a better team now than they were last year. They could go deep in the playoffs. However, if they still had Moss I think they'd have a chance at a Superbowl. That's the most frustrating thing. If/when the Vikings are knocked out of the playoffs and Williamson doesn't play up to Moss' level, there'll be endless thoughts of "what if?"

Randy Moss > Williamson and Harris

This seems a little contradictory. The person who isn't thinking about the team and winning and is thinking about whether or not he is comfy is Moss. Or was I should say. If he was thinking about the team he would've stayed on the field for that onside kick. If he was thinking about winning he wouldn't take plays off. Putting the blame on everyone else just because Moss is talented is treating him like a baby which might be why he acts like one. I think in the grand scheme of things, it's much more important for Moss to adapt to everybody else rather than for everybody else to adopt to Moss. And maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'm getting a little sick and tired of the players who demand to be traded/vocally express discontent because they happen to be on a non-competitive team. Where's their thick skin? Can you imagine if every player in the NFL pulled a Dillon/Owens/Moss? "Trade me or I can't be held liable for not playing well for your team." What the hell? Why are we condoning this type of attitude by pointing the finger at their teams and not at them? What happened to players playing hard regardless of how good their team was? Isn't that what we should be after as opposed to pampering the capricious desires of our spoiled superstars?

And like I've said before, it's not that Randy Moss > Harris + Williamson. It's that Randy Moss > any reasonable trade because you can't get equal value for a player that is an X-Factor every single time he steps out onto the field.

 

[BigJim®]

I think Al Davis  McCombs on this deal. Almost like a monkey trying to play with a boa constrictor.  Never trade the best receiver in the league for a shot at a rookie wr.

Downgrade Culpepper. 

Has to be something in the water up there.

I think we'll find out just how injured Moss was. He has certainly been the best WR in the league going into last year. He wasn't remotely close to the top WR last year, and that nagging ankle injury isn't going anywhere. We'll see. I won't write this off as overly lopsided just yet.

13 TDs in 12 games (some of them partial games) hardly represents "wasn't remotely close to the top WR." He had 8 TDs after just 4 1/2 games before tearing his hamstring in the 2nd quarter week 5 vs. New Orleans- and I might add this was his first serious injury in 7 years as a pro. Based on the way he finished the season still in recovery (TD in each of last four games), there is no doubt in my mind Moss would have approached 20 TDs last year without that injury. Granted, his overall FF points in a yardage format were marred by the limited action he saw after that week, but looking at the season stats as a whole is not a rational guage of his anticipated ability to produce. That's a little like saying Priest wasn't remotely close to the top RB when in fact the guy was unreal thru 7 weeks (14 TDs) and would have blown away his positional counterparts but for injury.

And if ifs and butts were candy and nuts, it's be Christmas every day.He wasn't remotely close to the top WR last year. That is a FACT.

Yes, because of injury, you've covered that Captain Obvious. Care to make a sig bet, with me taking the side that he's "remotely close to the top WR" this season? I didn't think so.

Yes. I would. I'll say he won't be in the top 10. If I win, you put "I am seriously considering having Randy Moss' children, since I love him like any gay man would." If you win, I'll put "BigJim KNOWS Randy Moss. He oVVned me this year with his superior football knowledge."

I'll take that top 10 bet, but I'll pick my own sig for you if/when you lose. The one you've picked for me is fine (as would be any other sig you choose if you change your mind). Sig will last 1-month if that works for you.

 

[BigJim®]

And maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'm getting a little sick and tired of the players who demand to be traded/vocally express discontent because they happen to be on a non-competitive team. Where's their thick skin? Can you imagine if every player in the NFL pulled a Dillon/Owens/Moss? "Trade me or I can't be held liable for not playing well for your team." What the hell?

No, you aren't in the minority on players like that but you are including Moss in a category he does not belong. Before and after the trade to Oakland Moss was steadfast that he did not want out of Minnesota. He has never, ever demanded a trade and that is largely why Viking fans were disappointed that he was moved. Now, Moss did do a full length interview at the beginning of the season calling Red out on how cheap everything at the corporate headquarters was (from practice facitities to dining) and he has expressed frustration about the defense being unable to hold 4th quarter leads, and he has walked off the field early during the Redskin game... but he has never asked for a trade. Randy wanted to stay and have Red spend available cap money on FAs, and his agent said as much after the trade.

 

[MelvinTScupper]

I think Al Davis  McCombs on this deal. Almost like a monkey trying to play with a boa constrictor.  Never trade the best receiver in the league for a shot at a rookie wr.

Downgrade Culpepper. 

Has to be something in the water up there.

I think we'll find out just how injured Moss was. He has certainly been the best WR in the league going into last year. He wasn't remotely close to the top WR last year, and that nagging ankle injury isn't going anywhere. We'll see. I won't write this off as overly lopsided just yet.

13 TDs in 12 games (some of them partial games) hardly represents "wasn't remotely close to the top WR." He had 8 TDs after just 4 1/2 games before tearing his hamstring in the 2nd quarter week 5 vs. New Orleans- and I might add this was his first serious injury in 7 years as a pro. Based on the way he finished the season still in recovery (TD in each of last four games), there is no doubt in my mind Moss would have approached 20 TDs last year without that injury. Granted, his overall FF points in a yardage format were marred by the limited action he saw after that week, but looking at the season stats as a whole is not a rational guage of his anticipated ability to produce. That's a little like saying Priest wasn't remotely close to the top RB when in fact the guy was unreal thru 7 weeks (14 TDs) and would have blown away his positional counterparts but for injury.

And if ifs and butts were candy and nuts, it's be Christmas every day.He wasn't remotely close to the top WR last year. That is a FACT.

Yes, because of injury, you've covered that Captain Obvious. Care to make a sig bet, with me taking the side that he's "remotely close to the top WR" this season? I didn't think so.

Yes. I would. I'll say he won't be in the top 10. If I win, you put "I am seriously considering having Randy Moss' children, since I love him like any gay man would." If you win, I'll put "BigJim KNOWS Randy Moss. He oVVned me this year with his superior football knowledge."

I'll take that top 10 bet, but I'll pick my own sig for you if/when you lose. The one you've picked for me is fine (as would be any other sig you choose if you change your mind). Sig will last 1-month if that works for you.

Sig bets are gay. But whatever you want. I couldn't care less.

 

[MelvinTScupper]

And maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'm getting a little sick and tired of the players who demand to be traded/vocally express discontent because they happen to be on a non-competitive team. Where's their thick skin? Can you imagine if every player in the NFL pulled a Dillon/Owens/Moss? "Trade me or I can't be held liable for not playing well for your team." What the hell?

No, you aren't in the minority on players like that but you are including Moss in a category he does not belong. Before and after the trade to Oakland Moss was steadfast that he did not want out of Minnesota. He has never, ever demanded a trade and that is largely why Viking fans were disappointed that he was moved. Now, Moss did do a full length interview at the beginning of the season calling Red out on how cheap everything at the corporate headquarters was (from practice facitities to dining) and he has expressed frustration about the defense being unable to hold 4th quarter leads, and he has walked off the field early during the Redskin game... but he has never asked for a trade. Randy wanted to stay and have Red spend available cap money on FAs, and his agent said as much after the trade.

I wish they had cut Tice instead. Moss is more valuable to this team than that mediocre coach is.

 

[BigJim®]

I wish they had cut Tice instead. Moss is more valuable to this team than that mediocre coach is.

Now that I agree with, a million times over.

 

[John 14:6]

This seems a little contradictory. The person who isn't thinking about the team and winning and is thinking about whether or not he is comfy is Moss. Or was I should say. If he was thinking about the team he would've stayed on the field for that onside kick. If he was thinking about winning he wouldn't take plays off. Putting the blame on everyone else just because Moss is talented is treating him like a baby which might be why he acts like one. I think in the grand scheme of things, it's much more important for Moss to adapt to everybody else rather than for everybody else to adopt to Moss.

And like I've said before, it's not that Randy Moss > Harris + Williamson. It's that Randy Moss > any reasonable trade because you can't get equal value for a player that is an X-Factor every single time he steps out onto the field.

There's no doubt that Moss has his issues, but the pros greatly outweigh the cons. Even when he takes plays off he still has a greater impact on a game than practically any other WR in the league. He has never demanded a trade and since you can't get equal value for him, why trade him? Just keep him and get as much as you can out of him, you're still better off.If he was complaining like TO is now I'd understand. TO is calling out the team leader in McNabb and holding out. All of Moss' complaints have been about the lack of effort on the Vikings' part of fielding a more competitive team when they're plenty capable. Though leaving the field early was wrong, it was out of frustration. At least he has a problem with losing. I wish Culpepper and Birk wanted to win half as bad as Randy.

 

[encaitar]

I wish Culpepper and Birk wanted to win half as bad as Randy.

Please, this statement is ridiculous. Birk played through a sports hernia last year and two years ago Culpepper came back from three broken vertebrae after being out 3 weeks. I don't think you have the right to question their competitive drive.

 

[ratpfink]

I wish Culpepper and Birk wanted to win half as bad as Randy.

Please, this statement is ridiculous. Birk played through a sports hernia last year and two years ago Culpepper came back from three broken vertebrae after being out 3 weeks. I don't think you have the right to question their competitive drive.

Why not? Moss' competitive drive is questioned everywhere, all the time, yet he plays with significant injuries too.

 

[encaitar]

I have never questioned Moss' competitive drive either. The media has made him out to be a villain and so many of his quotes are taken out of context. I have no doubt that he is an arrogant man, and this causes him to run his mouth when the Vikings are losing and people are questioning him for not providing victories, even despite his history making numbers. But, in the same light, I can't question Birk's or Culpepper's drive because they've proved that they will play no matter what the situation is. In fact, I think C-Peps competitive nature is what causes his fumble numbers to be so high. In situations where most QB's would take a sack, his mind won't let him just lie down and so in an attempt to make a play, he loses focus of the ball.

 

[Traders2001]

Moss never cared about winning that's a sure thing, it's so obvious.He gives a show and collects his big pay cheques thatis it .But winning the guy does'nt care.Culp, Brady , even Mcnabb those guys want to win but not Moss.

 

[John 14:6]

Moss never cared about winning that's a sure thing, it's so obvious.

If that were the case he'd be sitting on the sidelines joking around while they're losing like players we've seen on other teams. Walking off the field was the wrong thing to do, but it showed he is obviously frustrated with losing and with an owner who wouldn't make his best effort to win. The Vikings should have gotten Antonio Pierce, too, this offseason but McCombs wouldn't pay the bonus right away (or something like that).I definitely think Culpepper and Birk are somewhat competitive, but they should realize the best thing for the team is keeping Moss and just deal with his antics, one way or another. Another example is the Chicago Bulls and Dennis Rodman. There hasn't been a bigger distraction in all of sports history yet a team with leadership and character got the best out of him and won three titles.

I'd like to know exactly what Moss does in the lockerroom that's so disruptive because of the public stuff I know about none of it really hurts the team other than his walking off the field early. If Moss was badmouthing guys like Daunte and/or demading a trade I would understand getting rid of him, but for the stuff he's done I just don't see it.

 

[Steve in Minneapolis]

I have been travelling for a bit and am floored to see the legs this thread has. This is awesome discussion...

I wonder if Steve in Minn. will come back and admit that he was wrong.

I appreciate your challenge, but I don't think I was wrong on any of the points I made in the initial post. Thanks to BigJim for arguing that point so well on my behalf a few pages back in the thread. The only thing I have been surprised by since my original post is the fact that McCombs has been as aggressive in the FA market as he was (even if he wrote the contracts so the signing bonuses were paid in the middle of summer, NOT when the contract was signed...again trying to defer any costs to the new owner).

Regarding the Moss trade, for those of you who say that you never 'get fair value' when you trade a top-tier player, I'd point to the last two trades for star wideouts, as well as a few of the other high profile trades from the last few years:

The Bucs gave up two first round picks for Keyshawn Johnson.

The Cowboys traded two first round pics for Joey Galloway.

Miami gave two firsts for Ricky Williams

Peerless Price went for the 23rd overall pick to the Falcons.

The Jets gave up a second round pick for Justin Macareins. Justin Macareins!

Even the aging Drew Bledsoe went for a top 12 pick in 2003.

I would argue that none of those players were even close to Randy's talent except for Ricky... So I think it is reasonable to feel we got much lower than we could have for him.

I'm psyched about where the team is headed...now I just hope Tice can show an ability to pull the new talent together and lead this team deep into the playoffs.

S.I.M.

BTW...what the he|| happened to :horns:???

 

[cstu]

I have been travelling for a bit and am floored to see the legs this thread has. This is awesome discussion...

I wonder if Steve in Minn. will come back and admit that he was wrong.

I appreciate your challenge, but I don't think I was wrong on any of the points I made in the initial post. Thanks to BigJim for arguing that point so well on my behalf a few pages back in the thread. The only thing I have been surprised by since my original post is the fact that McCombs has been as aggressive in the FA market as he was (even if he wrote the contracts so the signing bonuses were paid in the middle of summer, NOT when the contract was signed...again trying to defer any costs to the new owner).

Regarding the Moss trade, for those of you who say that you never 'get fair value' when you trade a top-tier player, I'd point to the last two trades for star wideouts, as well as a few of the other high profile trades from the last few years:

The Bucs gave up two first round picks for Keyshawn Johnson.

The Cowboys traded two first round pics for Joey Galloway.

Miami gave two firsts for Ricky Williams

Peerless Price went for the 23rd overall pick to the Falcons.

The Jets gave up a second round pick for Justin Macareins. Justin Macareins!

Even the aging Drew Bledsoe went for a top 12 pick in 2003.

I would argue that none of those players were even close to Randy's talent except for Ricky... So I think it is reasonable to feel we got much lower than we could have for him.

I'm psyched about where the team is headed...now I just hope Tice can show an ability to pull the new talent together and lead this team deep into the playoffs.

S.I.M.

BTW...what the he|| happened to :horns:???

Good points, but considering Moss' contract, attitude and injuries the Vikings did get fair value. Look at guys like Edge and SA that teams won't give up a 2nd for. Just because the Bucs and Cowboys made stupid trades doesn't mean teams now would do the same. It's tough to give up a great player like Moss, but the Vikings are much, much better off in the long run by trading him.

 

[MelvinTScupper]

I have been travelling for a bit and am floored to see the legs this thread has. This is awesome discussion...

I wonder if Steve in Minn. will come back and admit that he was wrong.

I appreciate your challenge, but I don't think I was wrong on any of the points I made in the initial post. Thanks to BigJim for arguing that point so well on my behalf a few pages back in the thread. The only thing I have been surprised by since my original post is the fact that McCombs has been as aggressive in the FA market as he was (even if he wrote the contracts so the signing bonuses were paid in the middle of summer, NOT when the contract was signed...again trying to defer any costs to the new owner).

Regarding the Moss trade, for those of you who say that you never 'get fair value' when you trade a top-tier player, I'd point to the last two trades for star wideouts, as well as a few of the other high profile trades from the last few years:

The Bucs gave up two first round picks for Keyshawn Johnson.

The Cowboys traded two first round pics for Joey Galloway.

Miami gave two firsts for Ricky Williams

Peerless Price went for the 23rd overall pick to the Falcons.

The Jets gave up a second round pick for Justin Macareins. Justin Macareins!

Even the aging Drew Bledsoe went for a top 12 pick in 2003.

I would argue that none of those players were even close to Randy's talent except for Ricky... So I think it is reasonable to feel we got much lower than we could have for him.

I'm psyched about where the team is headed...now I just hope Tice can show an ability to pull the new talent together and lead this team deep into the playoffs.

S.I.M.

BTW...what the he|| happened to :horns:???

and, the Vikes got a first round selection in Harris and a first round pick. That's two firsts? Isn't that value? I agree this was slanted in Oakland's direction, but I don't think it's as lopsided as you're implying, unless Moss injuries go away 100%.

 

[Steve in Minneapolis]

and, the Vikes got a first round selection in Harris and a first round pick.  That's two firsts?  Isn't that value?  I agree this was slanted in Oakland's direction, but I don't think it's as lopsided as you're implying, unless Moss injuries go away 100%.

So do you think the Vikings could turn around and trade Harris for a first round pick? Not a chance... He is an average player who will improve our LBs, but absolutely not the same as receiving a first round pick. I remember all the hype about him (especially on this board!) 3 years ago when the Raiders drafted him, and he has never lived up to those expectations...

 

[John 14:6]

I remember all the hype about him (especially on this board!) 3 years ago when the Raiders drafted him, and he has never lived up to those expectations...

If he and Travis Taylor actually did all of a sudden live up to their potential coming into the league, the Vikings would be awesome But I like their chances better with a proven Randy Moss. :(

It's tough to give up a great player like Moss, but the Vikings are much, much worse off in the long run by trading him.

Fixed.

 

[whole-show]

I have been travelling for a bit and am floored to see the legs this thread has. This is awesome discussion...

I wonder if Steve in Minn. will come back and admit that he was wrong.

Regarding the Moss trade, for those of you who say that you never 'get fair value' when you trade a top-tier player, I'd point to the last two trades for star wideouts, as well as a few of the other high profile trades from the last few years:

Not to argue your point, but I see it interesting you don't point out what little the Niners got for TO(possibly the top WR).

 

[John 14:6]

Not to argue your point, but I see it interesting you don't point out what little the Niners got for TO(possibly the top WR).

Unlike Moss, TO wanted to leave. The 49ers had little choice but to trade him.

 

[whole-show]

Not to argue your point, but I see it interesting you don't point out what little the Niners got for TO(possibly the top WR).

Unlike Moss, TO wanted to leave. The 49ers had little choice but to trade him.

According to Moss' friends they said he wanted out too. So who's not to say Moss didn't want to be traded?

 

[MelvinTScupper]

I remember all the hype about him (especially on this board!) 3 years ago when the Raiders drafted him, and he has never lived up to those expectations...

What were the expectations?

 

[John 14:6]

According to Moss' friends they said he wanted out too. So who's not to say Moss didn't want to be traded?

Most what I've heard has been to the contrary. Either way, it was nowhere close to the TO situation.

 

[Shirtless]

Moss never cared about winning that's a sure thing, it's so obvious.

If that were the case he'd be sitting on the sidelines joking around while they're losing like players we've seen on other teams. Walking off the field was the wrong thing to do, but it showed he is obviously frustrated with losing and with an owner who wouldn't make his best effort to win. The Vikings should have gotten Antonio Pierce, too, this offseason but McCombs wouldn't pay the bonus right away (or something like that).I definitely think Culpepper and Birk are somewhat competitive, but they should realize the best thing for the team is keeping Moss and just deal with his antics, one way or another. Another example is the Chicago Bulls and Dennis Rodman. There hasn't been a bigger distraction in all of sports history yet a team with leadership and character got the best out of him and won three titles.

I'd like to know exactly what Moss does in the lockerroom that's so disruptive because of the public stuff I know about none of it really hurts the team other than his walking off the field early. If Moss was badmouthing guys like Daunte and/or demading a trade I would understand getting rid of him, but for the stuff he's done I just don't see it.

You're right, it was absolutely not OK for Moss to walk off the field. Keep in mind this also isnt the first time Moss pulled a stunt like this. There's been numerous instances in which he's simply taken plays off. Don't forget his infamous, "I play when I want to play" comment. And you know what, these actions might indicate that Randy is frustrated with losing, but he wasn't the only one frustrated with losing. It's ludicrous to assume that Moss was the only one who wanted to win more. These guys are competitive athletes. They all wanted to win more. The difference is that the other guys didn't screw over their teammates by leaving the field or taking plays off because they were frustrated. That shows a certain amount of maturity and perhaps even loyalty that Moss's actions don't demonstrate. Heck, not even TO took plays off despite how much he whined. There's a dozen threads here that go something like, "TO may be a showboat and talk a lot, but he sure plays hard every single time." You can't say the same about Moss. And I don't care how good Moss is, as his teammate there comes a point where I'm just sick of that type of attitude. And once again, I think Culpepper's comments after the Pro Bowl indicate that some of the players were definitely sick of it. And I don't think that type of internal locker room strife is good for a team. To say that Cpep and Birk are only "somewhat" competitive is ridiculous. These are guys that played with a broken back and a hernia respectively. Moss didn't even play with a tweaked hammy. I'm not saying that Moss should have played, but saying that Cpep and Birk are somehow less competitive than Moss is just plain wrong. And the difference between dealing with Moss's antics and anyone else's antics is that Moss's antics are manifested on the field and during plays as opposed to just off the field (of which he also has a fair amount) and in between plays (he also has some of these). But when was the last time you saw Rodman not go for a rebound because he only rebounded when he felt like rebounding or walk off the court late in the game because he was frustrated by losing? Putting up with Rodman's antics was easier because they usually did not manifest themselves while plays were happening. And keep in mind the Vikings have been putting up with Moss's antics for seven years now. The Bulls only had to put up with Rodman's for three.

As for what Moss was doing to create a disruptive locker room environment, I think leaving the field and taking plays off and admitting the you take plays off could definitely create some tension in the locker room. Remember, admitting that he took plays off is what got Vince Carter detested in Toronto... and he admitted that AFTER he left Toronto. Moss admitted that while he was still in Minnesota. Last year he also badmouthed Tice to the Star Tribune <a href="http://www.startribune.com/stories/464/5365478.html">link</a>. Moreover, he also told Larry Fitzgerald Sr. (yes dad of our Larry Fitzgerald), a Minnesota sports writer, that he wanted to be traded <a href="http://www.talkaboutprofootball.com/group/alt.sports.football.mn-vikings/messages/279891.html">link</a>.

Bottom line, the guy has more talent than possibly anyone else in the game but did not want to use all of it and brought the rest of his team down. Does that necessitate a trade? Maybe. But please let's stop suggesting that the Vikings organization made the most bonehead move in history because the reasons were definitely there. And as for equal value for Moss... I've already discussed this. You can't get equal value for Moss out of any reasonable trade. And regardless of precedent, perhaps the very fact that teams were not willing to offer three first round picks (NOTE: three first round picks probably isn't even equal value for Moss) is indicative of how much locker room and sideline baggage Moss was carrying with him.

 

[John 14:6]

Shirtless, you make some very good points, except Moss DID play with a sore hammy last year. IIRC he missed less games than Birk. Except he got blasted for trying to play because "he was just trying to keep his streak alive." He doesn't play, he gets ripped. He plays, he gets ripped. Such it goes for Randy Moss.Yes, Moss took plays off but his overall contribution more than made up for it. I think he's said stuff that if other players were honest they'd say the same thing and I'd have to agree. Regardless, I don't think his taking plays off has hurt the Vikings nearly as much as other boneheaded plays others make. Maybe in some situations it's Moss' fault for taking off plays, but I've seen too many times Viking drives end because Culpepper would throw a bad intercetpion or take too long in the pocket, get sacked, and fumble.I really believe the Vikings would have been better off if the players would just take what they get from Randy Moss and not let it affect them so much. These guys are paid millions of dollars and they should be aiming for a Superbowl. I had guys treat me like garbage on my high school teams but they were good players and if I had the option I wouldn't have gotten rid of them because I was thinking of the good of the team. That's what these guys need to do. Just ignore the kinds of stuff Moss has said and go out there and play. I really think if Moss had said stuff that bad about teammates like TO and Freddie Mitchell have done, we'd have heard a ton about... especially considering how every single thing Moss does gets blown out of proportion.Maybe the thing is I agree with Moss more often than not. I look down on taking plays off and leaving the field early, but the rest of the team and management deserves serious blame that they usually don't get like Moss gets. He's being used as a scapegoat. I guess I can see why he'd be glad to be gone.Bottom line, there are pros and cons with Moss but the pros far outweigh the cons. The Vikings would be much better off if they kept Moss and the other players would just let things go in one ear and out the other.

 

[Sundog]

Well, I don't believe the benefits of keeping Moss far outweigh the cons. I think this will ultimately turn out to be a good move for Minnesota. We'll see. I'm also thinking that Randy will start out strong for Oakland, then he'll start to blink on and off in games like he did here. Far as FF goes, Randy will always produce -- it only takes him a few catches to score and get his 100.

 

[BlueOnion]

Are there Minnesota fans still sweating Randy? I loved th guy, thought he was and still is the most dangerous player in the league. But the reality is:- Randy Moss will be 28 this season and obviously 29 next season- Randy Moss has had nagging injuries for 7 seasons; whether it is his back, his foot or his hamstring- Randy Moss is not getting any youngerAfter the 2005 season, the chances of Randy every playing a full 16 game season is slim to none...throw in his 12 to 15 million dollar a year contract and I suspect Randy will be a free agent in three seasons.

 

[encaitar]

I keep hearing people talk about Randy's injuries, but fail to remember him missing a game until his hamstring injury last year. Hamstring injuries have nothing to do with age or failing athletic ability. A pulled/partially torn hamstring is one of the most common injuries in high school and collegiate athletes(particularly in track amongst sprinters). I think that looking at his ability to perform well despite injuries in the past is actually a sign that he'll continue to play in most games each season.Particularly next season I see him doing well. Many people will look at his hamstring injury as a reason for him to take a step back next year, but I see it in a different light. Anyone who has pulled a hamstring knows that the rehab for the injury involves a lot of exercises and lifting that do a lot to work on your overall leg strength. I look at Randy the last few seasons and see that he has worked particularly hard at bulking up. (people might laugh, but his upper body was significantly larger this past season) In doing so, he may have neglected his hammy strength a bit, leading to his injury. His trainers will no doubt work hard on improving his leg strength this summer to prevent another injury of that type, which can only help his overrall speed and agility. It may have even been a blessing in disguise for him to have this injury this past season. He's only 28, which means he is in the prime of his physical development. Recovering from an injury will only become more difficult in the future, so for him to learn new ways to prevent injuries such as this will definitely help him stay healthy in the future.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

SIM-In talking about fair value gained for Moss, you mentioned those deals with Keyshawn, Galloway, Peerless, McCariens.With the exception of McCariens (and only because time & production haven't gievn us a complete view of the fairness of the deal)...in those cases, the teams that acquired the WR game out smelling like garbage.We debate all the time from an FF perspective the challenge a FA WR has when switching teams. It's not hard and fast, but the trend does show this to be true. Now one thing I will state is that I don't suspect a future HOF'er like Moss should encounter much difficulty, but in a market where the WR acquiring team has gotten burned quite often in the recent past, the price is going to go down.

 

[BlueOnion]

I keep hearing people talk about Randy's injuries, but fail to remember him missing a game until his hamstring injury last year.

If you want to be technical about him missing time, last season was the first. But he dissapeared in the '98 championship and it was widely reported it was because of pulled hamstring.Moss has a long history of being hurt and playing through these injuries.

I look at Randy the last few seasons and see that he has worked particularly hard at bulking up. (people might laugh, but his upper body was significantly larger this past season) In doing so, he may have neglected his hammy strength a bit, leading to his injury. His trainers will no doubt work hard on improving his leg strength this summer to prevent another injury of that type, which can only help his overrall speed and agility.

Every season he has still had the same back problem and foot problem that has bothered him since his rookie year.

He's only 28, which means he is in the prime peak of his physical development. Recovering from an injury will only become more difficult in the future, so for him to learn new ways to prevent injuries such as this will definitely help him stay healthy in the future.

I am sure you meant to say 'peak'. For him to flurish once he hits 30, he will have to have Payton\Rice like offseason work-outs. And I am not talking about bulking up, I am talking about extensive cardio training.

 

[Callas Disregard]

As someone with no dog in this fight (I'm a Dolphins fan who doesn't own Randy on any of my teams), the most striking thing to me in reading the "pro-Moss" posters in this thread is the complete and utter lack of appreciation for the implications of salary cap management. I see this as an almost unqualified good move for Minny -- both for 2005 and for the long-term. Bringing in a large, balanced group of talented players who don't command top salaries has been the key to success for teams like NE and PHI in the age of the cap. The Vikes appear to be mimicking that strategy with the Moss move, and I think we're already starting to see the dividends. A player's talent has to be weighed against his cap impact, and in that analysis Moss was not a good value.

 

[Bull Dozier]

Every season he has still had the same back problem and foot problem that has bothered him since his rookie year.

You've made this point repeatedly. I think it is a rediculous argument to make considering what Moss has done while being "bothered" by these injuries.There is no reason to believe Moss can't continue to be the physical freak he has been well into his 30s.

 

[tietzjd]

Every season he has still had the same back problem and foot problem that has bothered him since his rookie year.

You've made this point repeatedly. I think it is a rediculous argument to make considering what Moss has done while being "bothered" by these injuries.There is no reason to believe Moss can't continue to be the physical freak he has been well into his 30s.

Moss might be the physical freak for another 2-3 years. Can Oak keep him that long? Would Randy have even stayed and been happy in Minny? Would this would that! Let's talking about this subject at end of the year and the end of next year.

 

[cstu]

Every season he has still had the same back problem and foot problem that has bothered him since his rookie year.

You've made this point repeatedly. I think it is a rediculous argument to make considering what Moss has done while being "bothered" by these injuries.There is no reason to believe Moss can't continue to be the physical freak he has been well into his 30s.

Moss might be the physical freak for another 2-3 years. Can Oak keep him that long? Would Randy have even stayed and been happy in Minny? Would this would that! Let's talking about this subject at end of the year and the end of next year.

The Raiders are taking a lot of chances on Moss - he's taking a huge chunk of the salary cap, they gave up one of their few good defensive players and the #7 pick, he has a history of injury problems (though relatively minor), isn't a hard worker or good teammate and is getting close to 30.

 

[BlueOnion]

You've made this point repeatedly. I think it is a rediculous argument to make considering what Moss has done while being "bothered" by these injuries.

And I have often defended Moss when wearing purple; and playing while hurt. I have often said (well before this offseason) the injury report could say Moss; out. Two broken knees. If Moss breaks the huddle and sets up in a lawnchair, teams are still going to roll 2 or 3 guys to his side. This is why Randy Moss is the greatest receiver ever.

There is no reason to believe Moss can't continue to be the physical freak he has been well into his 30s.

Well I guess we can agree to disagree. I am not saying Moss' injuries have had an impact on his production, just that a strong pattern of the same recurring injuries are a sign of bad things to come as players grow older. How many blue-chip players can you name that have had a history of nagging injuiries but saw no drop off in production once they hit 30?I love Moss, he is the greatest receiver ever to play. But he doesn't have what Rice has when it comes to taking care of his body for the purpose of extending his playing career.

 

[BlueOnion]

The Raiders are taking a lot of chances on Moss - he's taking a huge chunk of the salary cap, they gave up one of their few good defensive players and the #7 pick, he has a history of injury problems (though relatively minor), isn't a hard worker or good teammate and is getting close to 30.

Not to mention the Raiders liquified his contract this year to get him under the cap. This just postpones the inevitable. I think Moss' contract called for about 10 million in annual salary this season. By liquifying his contract, his cap hit is about 3 million this year. Next year, Moss' contract hit could be upwards of 14 or 15 million.I will look for the thread.

Moss and Raiders rework contract

 

[Muahahaha]

Blue:Talked with my scout buddy. It basically looks like what I thought: they had Williamson and Williams as 1A and 1B. He described Williams as a great athlete. The deciding factor was "fit"; as you described before they wanted someone to stretch the field. Burleson and Robinson sure aren't going to do that. Also the Vikings never had a problem in the red zone; they don't need another big body to go up and get jump balls. They need someone who is capable of outrunning Culpepper's arm. I am beginning to believe more and more that Williamson was the right pick for this team.Interestingly enough I just looked up Nate Burleson's 40 yard dash time from his combine: 4.59 - almost exactly what Williams was clocked at. We did not need another possession receiver. The "fit" certainly wasn't there.....

 

[BlueOnion]

Blue:

Talked with my scout buddy.  It basically looks like what I thought: they had Williamson and Williams as 1A and 1B.  He described Williams as a great athlete.  The deciding factor was "fit"; as you described before they wanted someone to stretch the field.  Burleson and Robinson sure aren't going to do that.  Also the Vikings never had a problem in the red zone; they don't need another big body to go up and get jump balls.  They need someone who is capable of outrunning Culpepper's arm.  I am beginning to believe more and more that Williamson was the right pick for this team.

Interestingly enough I just looked up Nate Burleson's 40 yard dash time from his combine: 4.59 - almost exactly what Williams was clocked at.  We did not need another possession receiver.  The "fit" certainly wasn't there.....

I suspected as much, given that he probably was for Williamson or was sold on Williamson by the upper-ups of the organization.But those are some valid points; Burleson's 40 time and somebody to outrun Culpeper's arm.

I should also acknowledge that if Burleson can be some sort of a deep threat at 4.59, Mike Williams must have the same capabilities. Though I still question Mike Williams' 40 time.

Edited to add: Thanks for the update Muwahaha

 

[Muahahaha]

Blue:

Talked with my scout buddy. It basically looks like what I thought: they had Williamson and Williams as 1A and 1B. He described Williams as a great athlete. The deciding factor was "fit"; as you described before they wanted someone to stretch the field. Burleson and Robinson sure aren't going to do that. Also the Vikings never had a problem in the red zone; they don't need another big body to go up and get jump balls. They need someone who is capable of outrunning Culpepper's arm. I am beginning to believe more and more that Williamson was the right pick for this team.

Interestingly enough I just looked up Nate Burleson's 40 yard dash time from his combine: 4.59 - almost exactly what Williams was clocked at. We did not need another possession receiver. The "fit" certainly wasn't there.....

I suspected as much, given that he probably was for Williamson or was sold on Williamson by the upper-ups of the organization.But those are some valid points; Burleson's 40 time and somebody to outrun Culpeper's arm.

I should also acknowledge that if Burleson can be some sort of a deep threat at 4.59, Mike Williams must have the same capabilities. Though I still question Mike Williams' 40 time.

Edited to add: Thanks for the update Muwahaha

I saw some video of Mike Williams Pro Day; omg was he coached up. Never seen anybody take 3 minutes to set up and spend so much time getting into his obviously overcoached starting position. It is hilarious how long it takes.As for my scout friend being influenced by higher management. You would quickly take that back if you ever met him. He has been in the football business for longer than I have been alive. He is semi-retired and would shove this job in a minute. He tells it like it is. Could not be more of an independent thinker and has voiced many other disagreements with other Vikings moves. If he thinks Williamson is the real deal you can take it to the bank. He had less than a shining view of another famously ex-Vikings player...

 

[BlueOnion]

As for my scout friend being influenced by higher management.

I meant no disrespect and was just trying to beat the naysayers to the punch.

 

[Bull Dozier]

There is no reason to believe Moss can't continue to be the physical freak he has been well into his 30s.

Well I guess we can agree to disagree. I am not saying Moss' injuries have had an impact on his production, just that a strong pattern of the same recurring injuries are a sign of bad things to come as players grow older. How many blue-chip players can you name that have had a history of nagging injuiries but saw no drop off in production once they hit 30?

Isaac Bruce had nagging hammy injuries early in his career. He has not only shaken the reputation of being injury pronce, he's put up three productive (not Moss like) years in his 30s, and the most recent being the best of the three.

 

[BlueOnion]

Isaac Bruce had nagging hammy injuries early in his career. He has not only shaken the reputation of being injury pronce, he's put up three productive (not Moss like) years in his 30s, and the most recent being the best of the three.

Well I never said it was a definite rule of thumb, so you found the exception. But that is hamstring which is prudent to muscles and can be cured with stretching. What about injuries related to bone structure such as Moss' foot and back injuries?

 

[Bull Dozier]

Isaac Bruce had nagging hammy injuries early in his career.  He has not only shaken the reputation of being injury pronce, he's put up three productive (not Moss like) years in his 30s, and the most recent being the best of the three.

Well I never said it was a definite rule of thumb, so you found the exception. But that is hamstring which is prudent to muscles and can be cured with stretching. What about injuries related to bone structure such as Moss' foot and back injuries?

I knew you'd find issue with that. You asked for how many I could name, I thought of one off the top of my head, and of course it isn't analgous enough for you.Regardless, I think the burden of proof remains with you to show why minor injuries, which have cost Moss exactly zero games (the games he missed were due to hammys) in his career, are going to somehow end his career early, or significantly reduce his production faster than a normal decline for a player of his caliber.

 

[BlueOnion]

Regardless, I think the burden of proof remains with you to show why minor injuries, which have cost Moss exactly zero games (the games he missed were due to hammys) in his career, are going to somehow end his career early, or significantly reduce his production faster than a normal decline for a player of his caliber.

Wrong again. The burden of truth does not rest on me to prove my opinion nor on you to disprove my opinion. The burden of proof will be delivered by time, at which point we can retroactively acknowledge who was right and who was wrong in hindsight. But until then, you can either choose to agree or disagree with my opinion. But don't try to discredit my oppinion with your own opinion because our opinions carry the same weight on the message boards.