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Taylor is legitimate, but he's also a business man just like Red is. Taylor won't overpay for the Vikes just to get them. He already has an expensive toy with the Timberwolves. I think Taylor knows Fowlers financial situation is murky, and thus he didn't get nervous and overbid. Red found a sucker to pay full price for a team with a new stadium, even though the team has no stadium. Taylor won't pay the increased value the stadium would bring until the deal gets done.
I think his age is just as big of an issue.I'd wager that the Vikings offered Moss to the 49ers for the first pick, and SF turned them down.
If you were as far away from contention, and in general disaray like the 49ers, would you make that trade? It doesn't make sense for the 49ers.
an Wilkenson (Redskins gave up 1st and 3rd round, worked out poorly)Brad Johnson (Redskins gave up 1st and 3rd round pick, starter for 1+ years)One that comes to mind that worked out:John Elway (Denver gave up Chris Hinton who was the 4th pick in that draft, 1st rounder of the following year, and Mark Herrman, a journeyman qb.)Let me know if there are other big trades (primarily player for mulitiple draft picks) that have worked out well.
Another one would be the OJ Simpson-for-draft picks trade. The Juice didn't do much in San Francisco, and the Bills ended up getting (through trades) Jim Kelly and Joe Cribbs.I believe the big trades (in terms of giving up lots of draft picks), the team receiving the player usually ends of on the short end of the trade. I think this would drive the trade value down of star players.Some that come to mind:Hershel Walker (Viking big losers in the trade)Joey Galloway (Dallas big losers)Keyshawn Johnson (TB big losers)Some lesser trades
I'd wager they didn't. Who do they need to get at 1.1? QB is not a team need, and they certainly don't draft a WR at 1.1. Plus why spend the extra money on the 1st overall pick when the player they really need/want would be available at 1.4+?
Hard to call the SB Champion Bucs big losers. Without Keyshawn, who knows if they would have won the Super Bowl?
At least then we were going after a superstar and trying to make a run. Here we're trading away a future Hall of Famer for an average LB, which we already have plenty of, and a draft pick that has a much better chance of being Terry Glenn or Kevin Dyson than Randy Moss or Marvin Harrison. 
We had a ton of cap space already, we didn't have to trade Moss to free some up. If the Vikings have ANY success this year it won't be because the players they got in return for Moss are an improvement to the team. It will be because we go out and get FA that we probably would have been able to get anyway with the cap room we had.If Moss was too big of a distraction for the team, then the team has other issues with mentality and heart. They're just using Moss as a scapegoat, and he was their best player! That is sad 
Look at Corey Dillon and Terrell Owens. They were both big distractions for their crummy teams that did poorly. Those teams traded them away (because they WANTED to be traded, I don't think Moss asked to be traded) and went down the tubes. The teams they went to played in the Superbowl. If these guys were such cancers, why didn't they take down the Patriots and Eagles? Because those teams have character and leadership! 
Sure, TO was goofing around and being somewhat of a nuisance, but the Eagles didn't start losing and blaming him. They just ignored him and won games! The Vikings, though, lack so much mental toughness they let Moss' small antics bother them so much and they go out and lose. Our so called "leaders" like Culpepper, Birk, and ( 
) Tice don't rally up the team. Instead they point fingers at Moss and say he has to go! They chase away the best thing they had going for them. Vikings, you guys will never win anything if you are all such whiny crybabies! 
Randy, congratulations on going to Oakland. Minnesota doesn't deserve you. I'll be cheering for you and your new team and will laugh at the incompetent Vikings as Harris and their new rookie flop and they miss the playoffs year in and year out. Who will you blame then, Vikings, huh? 
In addition to these... I just remembered the one trade in recent memory that shook out okay for the Vikes:Brad Johnson to Washington for 3 picks: Those picks became Culpepper and DE Boireau
and the 3rd rounder was used to trade up to get Kleinsasser
I was talking with a friend about this and I mentioned how it is possible that at our position and with the depth of defensive talent that we could be in a position to trade down and pick up another pick or two... He asked if we really wanted to see our team be the laughingstock of the draft three years in a row...Lets just remember if this trade goes through the Vikes will actually be getting like a 10th or 11th pick depending on when they decide to make their pick and turn it in.
Yeah I hear ya. It will be really interesting to see how it works out for the Vikes. I am a Vikes fan and I really think this is a good trade if they work it right. If they sign 1 or 2 of the FA WR's and then use their 2 top picks for defense especially CB I think this will be an excellent trade. The way I look at it is Burleson did an excellent job when Moss was out and he hasn't gotten us far enough in the years he has been here and actually has been more of a pain in the A $ $. He will be remembered though, because he was an excellent WR when he wanted to be.I was talking with a friend about this and I mentioned how it is possible that at our position and with the depth of defensive talent that we could be in a position to trade down and pick up another pick or two... He asked if we really wanted to see our team be the laughingstock of the draft three years in a row...Lets just remember if this trade goes through the Vikes will actually be getting like a 10th or 11th pick depending on when they decide to make their pick and turn it in.
Sludge on KFAN this morning mentioned that ESPN showed stats of games without Moss and in those the team had about 90 less yards and 5 less points per game. This has been discussed here before in the past but even with Moss at less than 100% our offense was better with him.
He got us to two NFC championship games. That's a lot further than a lot of other teams.Corey Dillon, Terrell Owens, Keyshawn Johnson, and Warren Sapp have also all been huge pains for some of their teams but went to Superbowls when surrounded with a good team. Moss wasn't the problem, he was just a scapegoat.
Yeah, the other teams in the league are laughing hard at our last three picks of McKinney, Kevin Williams, and Kenechi Udeze. The Vikes really dropped the ball there?I was talking with a friend about this and I mentioned how it is possible that at our position and with the depth of defensive talent that we could be in a position to trade down and pick up another pick or two... He asked if we really wanted to see our team be the laughingstock of the draft three years in a row...Lets just remember if this trade goes through the Vikes will actually be getting like a 10th or 11th pick depending on when they decide to make their pick and turn it in.
And how did we screw up last year? We got a 4th round pick to move down one spot and still get the guy we wanted.Yeah, the other teams in the league are laughing hard at our last three picks of McKinney, Kevin Williams, and Kenechi Udeze. The Vikes really dropped the ball there?I was talking with a friend about this and I mentioned how it is possible that at our position and with the depth of defensive talent that we could be in a position to trade down and pick up another pick or two... He asked if we really wanted to see our team be the laughingstock of the draft three years in a row...Lets just remember if this trade goes through the Vikes will actually be getting like a 10th or 11th pick depending on when they decide to make their pick and turn it in.
I have no problem with the results of our draft, my buddy's point was that he's just tired of watching the coverage and having the talking heads take pot-shots at our team. Hopefully we can make it two years in a row where we get our act together....Yeah, the other teams in the league are laughing hard at our last three picks of McKinney, Kevin Williams, and Kenechi Udeze. The Vikes really dropped the ball there?I was talking with a friend about this and I mentioned how it is possible that at our position and with the depth of defensive talent that we could be in a position to trade down and pick up another pick or two... He asked if we really wanted to see our team be the laughingstock of the draft three years in a row...Lets just remember if this trade goes through the Vikes will actually be getting like a 10th or 11th pick depending on when they decide to make their pick and turn it in.
I think that was exceeded a while ago:honda:Isn't there a limit to how many times this joke can be used?Lets just remember if this trade goes through the Vikes will actually be getting like a 10th or 11th pick depending on when they decide to make their pick and turn it in.
Randy spent the last off season bulking up so he could be more physical. While not exactly the off season warrior that Jerry Rice is, it's not like he spends the off season sitting around watching TV and sleeping 23 hours a day.Though missing esentially 5 games, he still score 13 touchdowns. In the Oakland offense, where you KNOW they will be throwing him the ball deep (something the Vikes did not do near enough) he will get plenty of opportunities. While I wouldn't bet more than a nickel on it, I would not be surprised at all to see his TDs remain and a high level, and his ypc to go back up to the 16+ range it was in his first few seasons. I fully expect his receptions to drop with the Raiders not wasting time on WR screen passes to the best deep threat the NFL has seen. Is his overal FF production going to be as valuable? I don't know, but I'll still rank him in the top 3. As an exciting NFL player to watch, and help his team win, he's still the best in the game.
This is par of the reason. He needs to do more stretching and more cardio work. Those foot and ankle problems don't heal themselves if you put more mass on your body. Same goes for the back. And the hamstring injury is the first sign that a player is not stretching enough.Having said that, maybe Randy starts stretching more. I don't know. But for any other male out there who has turned 30, the body doesn't get any younger and habits are hard to break.
The reason I pointed that out was not to show that he will be successful in the future because of the added weight. The reason I pointed it out was to show that Randy Moss is willing to do what is necessary in the offseason to make himself better. If the Raiders tell him what they think he needs to do to improve, he's willing to do it. His supposed poor work ethic reputation is unfounded.
Uh oh, better ship him off, too! And Onterrio Smith, let's not forget his suspension last year.This is probably a Honda from another thread, but I didn't want to look through them all. I share a lot of Moss' feelings:
If anybody believes these thoughts originated any place other than the mind of a greedy agent needs their head examined.
More garbage from the mouth of this agent. What a crock. First of all, I don't think Moss has room to critize anybody else's effort and I don't think Moss would do that anyway. I think this is another spin by the same greedy agent.
Sorry, I could not disagree more with your convenient pooh-poohing of a very legit issue raised by Moss' agent. It's without merit just because of the source? I think not. No player, other than for monetary reasons, wants to play on a team that intentionally creates an uneven playing field for itself. I've always assumed it was just a matter of time for team implosion/exodus if the Vikes continue to shoot for the the cap minimum. I agree 100% with everything DiTrapano said.* Edited to add that I do disagree with the 2nd quote regarding lack of effort from teamates. I agree, that's asinine. So I guess I just agree with certain of Ditrapano's comments.
I am cool with that, but I just want to reiterate my beef was that this was coming from the agents mouth (not Moss') and thus made it garbage. You can agree all you want with DiTrapano, the truth is the Vikings rolling over so much money is hurting the following people:1) Player Agents - They only get paid a percentage of what the Vikings salary is.
I completely agree with BigJim. Unless you are a homer who grew up in Minnesota and/or are nearing the end of your career and have other concerns (where your kids go to school, where your wife wants to live, etc.), why would you want to come and play on a Vikings squad that is spending $0.70-$0.80 on the dollar to compete against other teams who are actually committed to trying to win a Super Bowl...instead of simply filling the Metrodome seats and finishing the season in the black, so their owner can buy another yacht or vacation home?I love the Purple, but if I were an NFL-caliber football player, I wouldn't touch the Vikings with a ten-foot pole unless they showered me with obscene amounts of money! Either that, or they got a new owner and head coach.....
I'm sorry, but the ones being "hurt" most, and in the most direct way, are the 52 guys wearing Purple on Sundays and the coaching staff taking them into battle. They are the ones who need to live with the fact that the owner seems to misplace his checkbook when he should be scratching and clawing to compete with the other 31 teams under a salary cap system built specifically to ensure profitability for all teams. Simply put, being at the cap doesn't make enough profit for Red. Also, if you are going to use the Patriots/Philly as a cap example, my immediate reaction is you could not be getting further from your initial point. In mentioning those squads, I'd ask that you also mention where they wound up vs. the salary cap. It's just a guess on my part but I'd suspect they were snug tight up to the max, albeit with better and more sensible signings than some of the other teams you've mentioned. But your argument there seems to be more "spend wisely" than "DiTrapano is biased and full of hooey; it makes sense not to spend at all" which is what the Vikes are being legitimately ripped for in your initial post.
I gotta disagree with your assessment that the Vikes manage their cap anything like the Eagles and Patriots. The Vikes have been burned by overplaying players in the past (see Randal Cunningham among others). Also, the Eagles and Patriots use the cap but spend close to or up to the limit. While you can't discredit the Vikes for being responsible, you can't say they are anything like the Eagles who use the cap to their advantage and get everything out of it. Winfield's contract was structured last year by all appearances not for responsibilty, but so the Vikes didn't have to spend any more money. Had they given Winfield a traditional signing bonus, they still could have been in the running for another elite defensive player (I believe Trotter was on the market last year), but instead they gave him a roster bonus and didn't have to spend another dime. If Red is still in charge, we'll see how he handles his current available cap room to see if he is truly responsible, or just stingy.
Actually, Minnesota was closer to the salary cap ceiling than most teams last year. But New England and Philly made it points to build their team through smart free agency spending and the draft. There reasoning was, once we get to the top of the NFL, we will have financial freedom to buy what we want instead of being strapped by the salary cap?Do you really think Philadelphia went to three straight NFC championships and then went out and bought Jevon Kearse and TO last season because they spend the maximum each year like Daniel Snyder, Jerry Jones and Wayne Huzienga? No way.
And I hope this source breaks out actual cap spending, not anticipated cap spending using the same asinine "LTBE" concept that is allowing the Vikes to expand its cap. For example, if what you provide shows Everett Lindsay at a $6.1 million cap hit for 2004, I'll tell you that is based on his ability to catch 6 TDs or some other ridiculous feat for a OL. There is no way that money was going to be spent, although it is nice to roll it into the 2005 cap. Fred Robbins had $4 million in similar types of impossible bonus scenarios in his contract as well.Yeah, BlueOnion is probably right....if you count things like building in a $15 million bonus if one of the Purple's O-Linemen caught something like 8-10 TDs in 2004. If I can find a link, I'll post it via an "edit". I know I've read though that the Vikings got over the minimum via lots of up-front money and ridiculous, unachievable bonuses.....
LOL, I was editing while you posted to say basically exactly the same thing. I find it funny when Vike fans use blatant cap fraud to argue that the Vikes are being competitve, or are even in the ballpark as other teams, cap speaking. It is irrefutable that the $15 mil "expansion" they are getting this year is directly tied to $15 mil in unreachable joke thresholds which counted against the cap last year.Yeah, BlueOnion is probably right....if you count things like building in a $15 million bonus if one of the Purple's O-Linemen caught something like 8-10 TDs in 2004. If I can find a link, I'll post it via an "edit". I know I've read though that the Vikings got over the minimum via lots of up-front money and ridiculous, unachievable bonuses.....
It is not possible to expand the cap. Very clearly, each team must spend more than minimum and less than the maximum each year (Regardless of LTBE incentives, signing bonus or roster bonuses). It is possible to circumvent actual money paid to a player by offering them a signing bonus; this is a 'pay you money today, count against the cap later' which could be interpreted as circumventing the salary cap. Or teams can offer other bonuses like a roster bonus that not only gives the players a lot of upfront money, it also allows the teams to obsorb the salary cap hit up front instead having to prorate the bonus.But technically, you have to count the LTBE incentives, just like you have to count dead money.
"Consistently" meaning the last 2 seasons while Red was in sell mode? Seriously, understand that this "pushing their salary cap as high as it can go" is based upon Red not paying incentives counted toward prior year caps.... meaning the money that it looked like Red was spending was not in fact being spent, or else it would not roll over to expand the cap in the ensuing year. I understand this is a tricky rule but I don't think you are seeing the forest through the trees if you are fixating on a figure that is based largely on $15 million worth of LTBEs like a defensive lineman rushing for 800 yards.But Minnesota consistently pushes their salary cap number as high as it can go, so they can roll over as much as possible.
Actually, I think the Vikings have been doing this since they finished repairint the salary cap damage they did in 1998. Back in 1998 Red McCombs was forking over big singing bonuses left and right to players like Randall McDaniel (renegogiated with upfront signing bonus), Todd Stuessie, Brad Johnson, Robert Smith, Jake Reed and John Randle.Everything seemed dandy until we lost the championship game in 1998. Red McCombs (like everyone else in the front office) realized they had just shot themselves in the foot for many years to come as far as the salary cap went.Now I was thrilled in 1998 when we resigned all of our own players, but in 1999 the writing was on the wall; we were going to have to rebuild because we were not going to be able to keep up with the pro-rated signing bonuses and dead cap money.
<sigh> That's a lot of typing space to use talking about irrelevant water under the bridge. Yes, the Vikings were in cap trouble 1999-2001 after they (Jeff Diamond) loaded up for 1998, and yes they suffered in a different sort of cap sense than what is going on today, meaning they did not need to manipulate anything to be in the middle of the pack, given all the dead money they had on the books. The Vikings were absolutely not "pushing the cap as high as it could go" through a LTBE concept in those days, they were trying to outrun a $15 million contract for Ed McDaniel and a $20 million contract for Randall Cunningham. In this thread, I BELIEVE, we're talking about 2003-2005. Let me break this down as simple as possible for you.
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
I guess we are looking at things differently. I know Red McCombs is not our long term owner and that he has also wanted to sell the team for a few years now. What I perceive to be reality in the NFL is a 'my guy' league. A new owner wants to bring in his own general manager, the general manager wants to bring in his own coach and the coach wants to bring in his own players. This is why I brought up 1998, McCombs bought the team but his hand was forced by Denny Green and Diamond (I want to say Diamond was gone or on the verge of going). McCombs has done a great a job of preparing the team for a change in ownership. The coach's payroll is lean and the player's payroll is lean. What I give McCombs credit for is not just spending the minimum and wasting the rest. He has actually decided to limit long term contracts and roll over as much salary cap space as possible. I don't think I could forgive McCombs if he spent the minimum and threw 16 million of salary cap space in the trash.
BigJim,To BlueOnion's credit, Red McCombs is a smart business man! However, most fans aren't as concerned with having a "smart business man" at the healm as they are with wins, division titles and Super Bowl titles. We all don't have to foot the bill to make those things happen though.....That said, McCombs is going to come out something like $350-$400 million ahead in his investment since he bought the team. One has to wonder though whether a $250-$300 million profit and a couple Super Bowl appearances would have been more rewarding for the Texas mutli-millionaire....since you can't take the money with you in the end. (?)
I now get the impression my typing is the digital replication of nails on a chalkboard to you. :rotflmao: I apologize for that.You make some great points, the $20 million he saves each season doesn't bother me that much. If you really want to get my goat you need to point out the following:
